Talk:Mass Rapid Transit Master Plan in Bangkok Metropolitan Region/Archive 1

Units
In the referenced documents I see only measurements in metric units. Why are they stated with miles primary in the infobox? &minus;Woodstone (talk) 15:07, 4 January 2014 (UTC) And by the way some references are "not found". There seems to be an extra invalid "/th" inserted. &minus;Woodstone (talk) 15:09, 4 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Lower in the article body the same number 81.28 is given as kilometres, so the miles in the infobox is probably a typo. It's still unreferenced though. The page's references are in need of updating in order to support the later added info. --Paul_012 (talk) 10:53, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

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Requested move 10 June 2018

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page to any particular title in the current discussion, per the discussion below; please feel free to reintroduce a new request at any time, and merges or splits are outside the scope of this close and can continue to be discussed. Dekimasu よ! 06:44, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Mass Rapid Transit Master Plan in Bangkok Metropolitan Region → Bangkok subway – Rather than keeping the page dedicated to a masterplan, we could move it to one of the proposed titles and create a sort of "summarizing" page of all the Bangkok mass transit systems, as is already the case with the Tokyo subway. Currently "Bangkok subway" refers to "Bangkok MRT" but it is incorrect, as there are two other mass rail transport systems. Obviously, once moved, the page needs an arrangement to adapt it to the new title, but the current text would be relevant and will not be deleted. Wind of freedom (talk) 23:26, 10 June 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Andrewa (talk) 00:54, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose. We already have a page for that, which is Rail transport in Bangkok. It is more inclusive than rapid transit, and allows for the inclusion of commuter red lines. The term subway is not used in Thailand. --Paul_012 (talk) 03:21, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Modified support The existing title is unwieldy, but the "Subway" is not the right replacement, since several lines are elevated. The governmental agency controlling the systems is called "Mass Rapid Transit Authority of Thaialnd". So I propose to use "Bangkok Mass Rapid Transit". Additionally merge the content of this article with existing Rail transport in Bangkok, which is also not an ideal name, since there are rapid bus lines as well. &minus;Woodstone (talk) 06:44, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I'd argue that the plan itself deserves Wikipedia coverage, and that is what this page should present: details of the plan and just the official plan, with its history. Unfortunately, enthusiastic editors have added lots of unrelated details to this page, resulting in the mess described in the orange tag at the top of the page. As I previously suggested, current details should be split off from this page and merged to the main Rail transport in Bangkok article. Whether to rename that article to Rapid transit in Bangkok is a discussion that should take place at Talk:Rail transport in Bangkok. (Though, as I noted above, rail transport would be more accurate: rapid transit technically includes neither the commuter red lines nor pink and yellow monorails, and strictly, not even the single BRT line, which utterly failed as a bus rapid transit system and which everyone already pretends doesn't exist anyway.) --Paul_012 (talk) 14:20, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
 * This is already a page about Bangkok's rapid transit rail systems, with the difference that it is focused on masterplans. With the proposed move, the current information will not be lost: former masterplans will go in the "history" section, the future ones in the paragraph about "planned developments". The page dedicated to the rail transport of Bangkok, as it already mentions BRT, could be moved to "Public transport in Bangkok" (as the case of Public transport in Auckland, Public transport in Mumbai). I think that the reader can be more useful and exhaustive a construction of this type rather than the current one. --Wind of freedom (talk) 02:46, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
 * The issue is definitely wider than this article. Part of the problem is that Bangkok has both various services which are arguably "rapid transit" and not "rail" (e.g. express boats), and "rail" but not "rapid transit" (commuter lines), and things which defy classification (the BRT). Another option would be to merge everything into Transport in Bangkok. Matthewmayer (talk) 01:07, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Relisting comment: I think there is consensus that there's an issue to address, but I can't yet see consensus on the best solution. Eh bien, continuons. (-> Andrewa (talk) 00:54, 19 June 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Light Green/Dark Green confusion
The BTS uses light green for Sukhumvit and dark green for Silom lines. Wikipedia also uses this convention.



However I've noticed that the new maps at MRT stations which show various upcoming lines have reversed this, and use dark green for Sukhumvit and light green for Silom!





Matthewmayer (talk) 15:00, 5 October 2019 (UTC)


 * This problem has existed for many years and Wiki members are just following the BTSC & BMA. MRTA uses the opposite of what the BTS does ie. Sukhumvit line is Dark Green line for their own obstinate reasons. To make it more confusing, the MRTA as the agency that tendered and paid for the building of the 2 most recent Sukhumvit line extensions; south to Kheha and north to Khu Khut; refers to these extensions as just the "Green line" extensions on it's website no light or dark!


 * Don't try to solve this stupidity, stick with the line colours for the BTS lines as is especially given that BMA is the owner of the original lines. One day the relevent agencies will arise at some compromise solution. The new Rail Department might actually find a solution once they are staffed up. Yappofloyd (talk) 14:36, 6 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Yes, someone has been doing their job poorly. That said, I still insist that since this the Mass Rapid Transit Master Plan in Bangkok Metropolitan Region article, it should follow the colours used in the master plan (those used by the MRT), and only briefly mention the discrepancy. Further details should be in Rail transport in Bangkok. --Paul_012 (talk) 21:01, 6 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Agreed, I see User:Magnamonkun made these edits https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Silom_Line&type=revision&diff=918610288&oldid=918224281&diffmode=source https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sukhumvit_Line&type=revision&diff=918610429&oldid=917310269&diffmode=source which seem sensible. I noticed the MRT have doubled down on their naming recently, the in-train announcements now say "Light Green Line"/"Dark Green Line" instead of "Silom"/"Sukhumvit". Don't get me started on the fact that "dark red" and "light red" are not exactly common colour names :) Matthewmayer (talk) 15:41, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Numbers, numbers everywhere
User:116.50.60.180 has been adding a lot of numbers to all the lines on this line and other lines. I'm not sure how official these are - there are numbers on the MMap2 PDF linked in the article but Silom and Sukhumvit lines are reversed from the order in the article and I don't see any sources for numbers 11+. Matthewmayer (talk) 17:48, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

... and additionally it doesn't match the numbers shown on the maps in MRT stations (pictured above) Matthewmayer (talk) 17:49, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Yes, agreed. It is a little overboard especially as who ever it is is using incorrect numbers and making some up it appears. Though I had intended to do this for some time, it really doesn't seem like a priority. However, given that someone has started to process, in my view you should go ahead and correct those that are incorrect. --Yappofloyd (talk) 09:36, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

There seems to be no clear agreement on numbers and colors of the various lines. It is rather difficult to find a reliable source for this map. I found one on the MRTA site, the official organisation responsible for mass transport in Bangkok. However it does not agree with the maps posted in the stations. Compare the following:

As long as the confusion is this big, I propose we remove the numbers till more clarity arises. The colors only show discrepancy between for the BTS lines, where the colors given by the BTS itself on its maps and stations should prevail. &minus;Woodstone (talk) 08:59, 24 December 2019 (UTC) -

Line distances inconsistency
Also needing some attention for many years now is the fact that the distance lengths in many tables, and other articles, have been inconsistent. This arises from members not updating line distances given in various places in an article and also not cross referencing/updating with other relevant articles. There is also the fact that sometimes we've had people - usually not regular contributions following these articles - update line total distances when they have already been updated by a member once a new extension has opened. This thus results in doubling the new extension length in the overall totals (eg. this occurred 3 times in the weeks after the final section of the MRT Blue Line ext opened). I spent some time a few months ago verifying & correcting the totals in this article and specific line lengths in this article, the MRT Orange line, MRT Bangkok article, SRT lines etc but more needs to be done. (eg. BMA Gold Line had the 2.7km listed in the U/C construction table in this article which I just corrected as the first phase length currently u/c is 1.72km).

There is the the need to systematically check and cross reference each distance figure as there are still some corrections required. Perhaps, this could be a joint effort done by a few of us where we collectively verify the lengths of each line by listing them on this talk page. Thereafter, we can crosscheck that each article has the correct distance? Yappofloyd (talk) 13:07, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Table tiles and line descriptions
I've changed the column title in the Future Planning table from Operator to Owner as there was some inconsistency. The fact is that for future lines/exts we don't know who the operator will be especially when these future lines haven't even been tendered. Otherwise, it is an assumption as to who the operator will be. (Note: the BTS lines are still problematic as MRTA responsibility for the 2 Sukhumvit future extensions as out of Bangkok province - and then try to hand them to the BMA - and the BMA will do the two future Silom extensions).

There are a couple of issues with the descriptions used in the tables in this article which have needed addressing for a number of years now but I've personally avoided it given that others did these tables a long time ago and they have endured. Firstly, there is an inconsistency with the table column titles used. For the M-MAP & M-MAP2 tables the title is Service. For the U/C and Future Planning tables, the column title is System. Secondly, this highlights another issue which needs some attention. All of these lines are mass rapid transit lines regardless if they are heavy rail lines (metro & commuter) or light rail lines (monorail) but the term "Rapid transit" is used to describe the MRT & BTS lines in the tables which doesn't really adequately characterise the type of line it is. Accordingly, I propose that the column title Rapid Transit type be substituted instead of Service or System column titles. Also, that 'Heavy rail metro', or similar, be used for the MRT, BTS & ARL (described as "Airport Rail Link") lines rather than the current "Rapid Transit". The SRT lines can stay "Commuter rail" and the monorail lines kept as is. Thoughts? Yappofloyd (talk) 13:07, 16 August 2020 (UTC) Titles and type descriptions have been standardized. I hope that these changes are suitable by you Khun Tondeknoi1802? Yappofloyd (talk) 12:25, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

There are 2 ways to classified Rapid Transit Type, Service Type is how rails are operated, so it is to be either Metro/Urban Rapid Transit (high frequency, urban area) Commuter/Suburban Rapid Transit (lower frequency, connect urban with suburban area), Rail Type or capacity which is either Heavy Rail for high capacity (larger trains cars/trainset and high frquency) and Light Rail for low capacity (smaller train cars/trainset and low frequency). Each Line shall fall in to one of Service Type and one of Rail Type. So Red Line is Commuter and Heavy Rail and Pink Line is Metro and (not so) Light Rail. So I suggest all lines Type categorized by these 2 classifications i.e. MRT Blue Line - Type : Urban Rapid Transit/Heavy Rail, SRT Dark Red Line - Type : Suburban Commuter/Heavy Rail And so Mass Rapid Transit/MRT may be used for naming of lines which is Heavy Rail + Metro and Light Rapid Transit/LRT for naming Light Rail + Metro lines. But we cannot use MRT in Thailand because it is now the system name. We should able to call Green Line MRT but no because its not belongs to Bangkok MRT system. sfalpha (talk) 20:40, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

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Merging
Looking again at the mess of information here and at Rail transport in Bangkok, I'm now convinced that the articles really should somehow be merged and renamed, as Woodstone suggested above under. It's clear that this article is never going to be about a static version of the master plan, and preventing information about all types of lines from creeping in is rather impossible. --Paul_012 (talk) 12:40, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Difference between BTS Group Holdings and Bangkok Mass Transit System
I think we need to separate these 2 business entity to different page BTS Group Holdings (BTSG) is not direct operator of BTS Lines, instead the Bangkok Mass Transit System (BTSC). Most article use abbrev BTS for BTSG which is not correct. Pink and Yellow monorail lines which is (partly) own by BTSG and operator will be NBM and EBM which I am not sure is part of BTSC or BTSG. So I suggests we clear confusion about this. sfalpha (talk) 04:00, 20 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Bangkok Mass Transit System (the company) could certainly be created as a separate article, though I'm not quite sure what content it could carry that wouldn't be redundant to the system articles. Maybe the BTS article would be a better redirect target. I'll start an RfD. --Paul_012 (talk) 20:30, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Actually, why not. I've went ahead and created an article, but it will need to wait for the RfD to be closed. --Paul_012 (talk) 12:26, 29 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Before, it may not need to Bangkok Mass Transit System because the company is directly create for operator of BTS Lines. But later Bangkok Mass Transit System also now operate Gold Line (Bangkok) and Bangkok BRT which is completely different system. And most article links BTS Group Holdings as an operator. This should also be update after RfD things done, and also change owners of some Lines to Krungthep Thanakom Company Limited and redirect to Krungthep Thanakom section of Bangkok Metropolitan Administration
 * Now there is also NBM and EBM which BTS Group Holdings hold major stakes in both company to operate Pink and Yellow Lines. To complicate things up construction was done by Bangkok Mass Transit System subsidize payment from Govenment through NBM/EBM joint venture. And Bangkok Mass Transit System record that into revenue and lead to misinformation about operation revenue of the BTS Skytrain. Hope someone (or me) have times to write this information, finding sources and clear things up. --sfalpha (talk) 09:28, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

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