Talk:Massively multiplayer online role-playing game/Archive 1

Everyone favorite MMORPG
--22:59, 13 May 2005 (UTC) I strongly suggest that we move to a policy of deleting phrases like:

such as \[\[my favorite game\]\]

unless there is something particularly compelling or unique about the referece.


 * Come on, this article would be useless without working examples of different MMORPGs. Grue 06:48, 14 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Removed link to Elysium. No mention was made of it here before it was posted, nor was anything noted about it being unique. It was just the link WP is not a link-factory, right? --Habap 21:27, 24 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Agreed that we should remove links to specific games unless it is a very good example that needs to be cited. Things like "Many games are fantasy-based, such as \[\[MY GAME ADVERT\]\]" should be removed. There is already a page devoted to listing MMORPGs.

Pronunciation
How do you say "MMORPG"? I got em-mor-a-peg from here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/computergames/story/0,11500,1103918,00.html, but personally I say em-mor-peg. I don't know where the "a" sound comes from in Gardian's pronounciation. -- ktheory 20:29, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I just say "Ememmoh-Arpeegee".--162.24.9.213 20:32, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * Agreed. "RPG" is one concept, and can't be broken away from the MMO- prefix. "em-mor-a-peg" is definitely, horrendously, wrong. *slap* --24.126.30.46 01:08, 25 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I just read the acronym one word at a time. M M O R P G.  --Will 04:09, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * That's "letter." And I say it the same way as you.&mdash;68.204.253.187 01:03, 2 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Agreed. All the meetings I'm in, both publishers and developers just spell it. Coll7 20:04, 9 July 2005 (UTC)


 * the best one is ragnarok online
 * I personally say 'Muh-morg', which is pretty silly, but some people pronounce 'pwn' as 'pawn' (including myself) so, yeah. User:CronoDroid

Article move
I don't entirely agree with the article move. --Mrwojo 22:37, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * 1) The first letter of every word shouldn't be capitalized.
 * 2) Should it be "massive" or "massively"? Both are about as common, though Google favors -ly.


 * I concur. I never thought the article should've been it's abbreviation, but it didn't bother me much. I couldn't decide which expanded version to move it to. If Google favors -ly, let's go with that and make the other version into a redirect. Whichever version we use, only the first letter should be a capital as Mrwojo notes. Anyone else? &mdash;Frecklefoot 16:37, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * It's a name of a category, no one refers to an MMORPG as "massive multiplayer online role-playing game", everyone uses "Massive Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game". The same thing happens with Arecibo Observatory, it's a name and no one refers to it as "Arecibo observatory".


 * Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game is OK, just make sure the redirects point to it.


 * --Maio 20:21, Mar 11, 2004 (UTC)


 * I don't agree. What do you mean "everyone uses "Massive Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game"?  Who is "everyone"?  First-person shooter and Computer role-playing game are categories too and they are not all capped.  I think we should move it to be consistent with the other genres. &mdash;Frecklefoot 21:16, Mar 11, 2004 (UTC)


 * Everyone in the gaming community, including gamers and developers. --Maio 21:53, Mar 11, 2004 (UTC)


 * In my experience, that's not true. --Mrwojo 23:46, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * That's what I can tell you from my experience. IIRC it was Brad McQuaid who coined the phrase; maybe we could ask him?


 * It's more likely it was a product of EA's marketing dept. for UO. I recall reading that it might've been used by M59 even earlier. --Mrwojo 14:42, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I've always seen "massively." I think we're safest going with MMORPG and dodging the capitalization issue all together. - Arthur George Carrick 21:57, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * I'm a developer, but I always just use MMORPG--I never have to spell out the whole thing (everyone here knows what it stands for). Maybe we should just go with the initials... &mdash;Frecklefoot 22:00, Mar 11, 2004 (UTC)


 * MMORPG may not be the greatest page title, but MMORPG seems to be the most common name for the genre and it's easier to link to (without redirects from the many permutations). --Mrwojo 23:46, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * Agreed. This page and -ly ought to be a redirect to MMORPG. FTR, I've almost always seen it spelled with the -ly, and capitalized. -Sean 00:37, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * I kindof disagree with you. The main article should be Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game while MMORPG redirects to it. --Maio 01:50, Mar 12, 2004 (UTC)


 * My experience matches that of Frecklefoot. I hear it in full-word form only when non-gamers are in the room or as a break to keep from repeating "MMORPG." Coll7 20:06, 9 July 2005 (UTC)

You really think its of big importance if its massive or massively? i think it was a cool article to read and since i never played a mmorpg i'd be more than happy to play it and not to discuss the massivity of it Loomy

Vote
Why don't we take a vote? Please vote on your favorite title below&mdash;be sure to sign your vote. Note captilizations of each version. Please add any that you think bear mention.

MMORPG
 * Best compromise, probably most widely used. :-) &mdash;Frecklefoot 18:21, Mar 12, 2004 (UTC)
 * Mrwojo 18:40, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * Sean 06:15, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * Naha|(talk) July 8, 2005 22:53 (UTC) (just for the record)
 * Coll7 20:07, 9 July 2005 (UTC)
 * 24.126.30.46 01:11, 25 October 2005 (UTC) (For the record, it's "massive" not "massively")

Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game

Massively multiplayer online role-playing game

Massive Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game

Massive multiplayer online role-playing game

Holy cow, no one except Mrwojo cares about the name of this article? What was the whole previous discussion over? If no one else votes in the next few days, I'm going to go ahead and move this to MMORPG since that is the only proposed name that got any votes. &mdash;Frecklefoot 14:27, Mar 16, 2004 (UTC)


 * In the interests of basic literacy, it should not be a title that feeds the computer-science culture that requires every word to begin with a capital letter. Michael Hardy 20:16, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

BBC
This article was listed by theBBC today. Mark Richards 19:41, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Got a link?  &mdash; Frecklefoot | Talk 20:25, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)


 * Looks like its this one: . --Mrwojo 14:34, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Article Duplication?
Isn't the article Massively multiplayer online game exactly the same thing? Grunners 05:02, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * No. See Talk:Massively multiplayer online game. --Mrwojo 13:18, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Another BBC link
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4104731.stm Tom k&e 14:56, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Griefer
I've created a stub for a new article to define the term Griefer. Please have a look - it needs expanding! Also, any ideas on the most appropriate way to link to the article from MMORPG? --AjAldous 15:47, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * I re-added a section on rude players, but this time it's expanded and more specific to MMORPGs. Also, griefing should be merged into griefer.  By the way, thanks for filling a Requested articles/Social Sciences and Philosophy.  You can remove the link to griefer from there.  --Mrwojo 16:25, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

External links expanding
I just noticed that an anon user, 24.8.68.200, just added an external link to guildportal.com (at the top of the list, no less!). Exploding external links sections have occured on other pages I watch and in those cases, some users have added notes such as:

Since it is a comment, regular readers aren't bothered by the text and only users who potentially want to add a link will see it. It still won't prevent people from adding their pet sites, but it may discourage additions without discussions. Also, the comment says any undiscussed additions can be reverted without question. This may help prevent this section from ballooning out of control. I know it sounds un-wiki, but it helped in the other cases I mentioned. &mdash; Frecklefoot | Talk 16:40, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)

New External Links
I like to add MMORPG Gamer, I feel this is a good addition because MMORPG Gamer lists news from established MMORPGs but also a lot of new and upcoming MMORPGs, including free, alpha, beta and released ones. This gives the smaller fishes the needed exposure and it is important for the development and flourishment of MMORPG. MMORPG-gamer.com is also updated daily. - Mgamer 23:09, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Any objections to adding MMORPG Gamer? - Mgamer 12:45, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Not so sure it's useful. Looks like the site is less than 6 months old, only has 26 people reading it at the same time I am and covers the same news covered on other sites. I'm not an authority on these sites, but at first glance, nothing looks novel about it and it doesn't appear to be heavily trafficked. I would defere to some of the other editors here for more perspective. --Habap 21:25, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

MMO Markets - Currency prices for major MMORPGs.
 * It's a unique addition to the list of links, and it shapes the idea that virtual currencies are real. Gives quantitative perspective on the type of markets that exists for these things. i.e. "Oh, I see, a hundred pieces of silver in such and such game is worth $X. And hmm, it might take Y hours to earn a hundred pieces of gold. Therefore the economy is like Z" --Philosophistry 04:49, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I check MMO Markets all the time for my own research about the state of MMORPGs. There are other sites, like GamePriceWatcher.com, but this site's emphasis is on the markets themselves, and not so much as a discount indexing service. (Ezrapuff 07:16, 5 October 2005 (UTC))

[Massive Multiplayer Hell] - MMOG (the term includes MMORPGs) Network of fansites and a general Magazine upfront (www)

[Warcry], [Stratics] - Same as above

These three sites are the same in their core - having a general "Portal" and a Network of fansites for some MMOGs (MMORPGs). I will add them in if there is no objection within the next few days, so, yes your comment did work :) -- Fyrn


 * Just listing them here is not discussing them. I'm reverting them until you get some comments on them.  If you get no comments, consider that a "no." I, for one, object.  We already have too many links there already.  You've given no compelling reasons why the sites you've added are better than the ones which are already there.  They all say "A MMORPG network site."  Why are yours better than the ones that already say that?   &mdash; Frecklefoot | Talk 16:57, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)


 * First of all, I added all the "MMORPG Network site" links, and I chose that wording because they are indeed MMORPG network sites. There is no real difference between them except their community focus. Some of them have fansites of one game, some of the other, fansites for some games are on all of them. Readers should see the variety there is and have the opportunity to choose. A player new to MMO(RP)Gs who probably stumbles across this article should not be sent off to the first available community.
 * And if you argue that Wikipedia should only show what a "Network" is, then at the very least do not link the worst of them all - a network owned and operated by the single most hated entity there is among MMOG developers (IGE, OGaming).
 * In an earlier Revision, these networks were even described: "MMORPG network sites provide news, forums, and information about games with a special emphasis on popular MMORPGs. Some of the more famous networks are the Online Gaming "OGaming" Network (http://www.ogaming.com/) and Stratics (http://www.stratics.com/)."


 * Who removed them or why that was removed in favor of a bold large "advertising style" link for OGaming is beyond me. But the possible reason is apparent.


 * I say, add back a paragraph that explains in detail what these networks offer and either link to one good reference or the most popular ones (which would include Warcry, Stratics, MM Hell and also OGaming, looking at it from an "importance for the general public" point of view). Stratics for example goes way back into the Ultima Online days and has often played a large role.


 * I wonder what Encarta would look like if they throw in the The Satanic Verses as a reference to the history of the USA or something (no I didn't read it, beat me if I'm wrong).


 * Oh and sorry for rushing it, I've been editing before around Wikipedia but just recently registered and am new to the entire discussion thing. I by no means want to screw around with this wonderful piece of free work. --Fyrn

Sorry, I replaced Stratics with onRPG because I felt that there are so many portals which offer news about the mainstream MMORPGs and onRPG seems to offer news about the underdogs of the MMORPG world which often get ignored by the bigger sites. I have no objections to MMHell and Warcry being added but I don't feel that Stratics is significant or useful enough to put in MMORPG. It grew up around UO and has branched out from that but the content on all their other portal sites seems lacking in many aspects. I think it should be kept to Ultima Online and a few other of the MMORPG pages for which it offers a lot. --Kevin 11:37, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)


 * Fyrn, you seem to be an authority on MMORPG network sites, I am not. Since you seem to know the better ones from the poorer ones, I'll support your modification of the extern links section.  Please trim the poor ones and add the good ones (just not too many, please).  Thanks for taking the time to discuss this! :-)


 * Also, I know you state that you are in a hurry, but please take the time to sign your posts. You can do this by typing either 3 or 4 tildes (  or ~ ).  Thanks!   &mdash; Frecklefoot | Talk 19:30, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the tip, I'll remember to sign my posts. And yea, from a "broad variety" standpoint, Stratics and Warcry are not exactly the best examples as they tend to ignore a lot of the "underdogs". Same with MMORPG.com though, and all the other sites that are around. I always like to give readers (may they be here or on MM Hell) the widest possible variety of information. Lots of people also prefer the smaller indie-developed MMOGs before the "Major" titles as the interaction between developer and community is far more open. I'm not really in a hurry, I just didn't know how the entire discussion process should go so I assumed of no one objects, I would be free to add them. I'll wait some more this and next time to see what people think. Fyrn 20:43, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Readability / Other qualms
I've edited the readability of this article, ranging from typos, duplicate words, punctuation, grammar, and sentence structure. I've tried my best to not remove any of the informational content in this article (Only where it seemed unnecessary or redundant). I suggest others go through and make this doc more readable, as this is certainly not a complete edit. The concision of this document seemd a bit poor. In no way whatsoever did I edit content I didn't understand. I've also added internal links where they seemed necessary.


 * Other Issues
 * - Amateur Development -> Main reasons for development seem obvious; "just for fame" sounds ridiculous
 * - Paragraph structure, particularly in Browser-Based area needs reworking.
 * - Social Impacts in World Composition seems unnecessary, just by virtue that you're only going to make friends on your server anyway. An analogy: You're not going to be making many friends in France if you live in Japan.
 * - External reference should be added for the "chinese sweatshop" portion in Farming area.
 * - Doesn't twinking also refer to low-level players receiving high-level buffs to kill things vastly above their levels for quick-leveling? Any AC players might recall low-levels farming outside Fort Tethana with their high-level patrons.
 * - Fairly positive Farming also refers to grinding for XP, not just loot. Might just be WoW vernacular, though.

I'm pretty new at editing, so sorry if this seems snobish and overbearing. I really think this article could be made better.


 * Unless someone can come up with a source for the "chinese sweatshop" and "cyber cafe percentage" claims in the Farming section, I think we should remove the text.
 * Landonf 19:52, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm going in! This article is a quagmire of facts and needs more structured direction. Hopefully I'll soon start fixing it all up. --Redxela Sinnak 12:31, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Moved MMORPG terms and acronyms
The MMORPG terms and acronyms section was getting ridiculously long so I moved to into an article of its own: MMORPG terms and acronyms.

Grammar error
"Private servers remain markedly less popular then the official servers" s/then/than/ --Anon User

So fix it? --Kevin 22:37, August 5, 2005 (UTC)

Station exchange
Can the article be updated to reflect this new service by SOE.
 * Why? What is so unique about Sony's service? --Habap 13:43, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

"Aggro"
If Aggro is going to redirect to this article, this article should contain at least a mention of that word, and preferably an explanation of what it means! - Brian Kendig 21:23, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I changed to redirect to MMORPG terms and acronyms. - Ajshm 09:58, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Removal of discussion thread Valhyre
Hm, may I ask why the discussion thread got removed too without any comment? I apologized for adding the link without seeing the warning not to just do so, I came from the german version and this has no rule like that. After a long day at work I did not read through the mmorpg description to check for them, yes that was my fault, sorry. So the link was removed, ok, but why the discussion too? - Jenadi, Valhyre - The Aftermath


 * I don't know why your comment was removed (though I can guess). However, I am positive you wouldn't have had more luck in the German WP had you done the same. The link there is internal and leads to an actual article (created yesterday, and may well face the equivalent of a VfD in the near future). Rl 09:17, 19 August 2005 (UTC)


 * What link is internal? And what is VfD?


 * An internal link points to a page on Wikipedia. The link in the German WP points to de:Valhyre. – VfD means Vote for Deletion. Rl 10:46, 19 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes, we discuss that at the moment, they think no mmorpg not on market should be entered into wiki, so now star trek online, Planeshift and others got the VfD too ... (shaking head) I asked what about concept cars, planned buildings etc. Is it allowed for the english version to create a page for mmorpgs in development or is that not allowed too? Or whom to ask? -- Jenadi


 * You could start by reading WP:NOT. I suggest you don't write an article until you have gone gold (at the very least). Best thing is to wait until you sold so many units that one of the game's fans starts an article. This is my personal opinion, and not official policy. Note, though that sequels of successful products are more likely to be considered notable even before their release (*cough*, *cough*). Rl 12:10, 19 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I read that page and thought about it. There are several other mmorpgs in development covered so far, mostly with real stubs only what we don't intend at all. Is there some kind of ... hmmm, lets say mmorpg section leader or so to ask if a discussion as the one from the german version would raise? I was pretty perplexed to see when I wrote that STO for example is linked and has a page too it suddenly got "attacked" as vaporware and such with a VfD. That was the last intent I had. o.O


 * a) this is not a Place to Advertise things b) I wouldn't delete an article about Star Trek Online, just for the fact it's based on such a popular franchise - whether it goes Gold or not, the fact someone has attempted to do it, is noteworthy c) Planeshift, whether it ever goes "Gold" or not, should stay, alone for the fact that it is the most advanced Open-Source MMORPG ever created and going strong. However, spamming an Encyclopedia with "articles" about some fancy development idea you just had, with the sole purpose to advertise it, should not be allowed. --Fyrn 08:59, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Matrix
No mention of the blockbuster moview Matrix here?doles 15:54, 2005 August 24 (UTC)

Games in Extenal links
Is there any good reason to keep any links to single games in the External links section? I'm inclined to remove the "Planeshift" and "Valhyre" to one of the list articles. Also, the "Virtuality" link is just to a book advert and should probably be removed. -- DrBob 20:08, 30 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree. I have removed the advertising. --Kevin 22:32, August 30, 2005 (UTC)
 * Concur. If there were one, we'd have to add them all and no one wants that. --Habap 22:42, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Reference_desk/Science#How_much_virtual_space_exists_in_persistent_worlds
Reference_desk/Science Please comment, &there4; here&hellip;&spades; 16:35, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

MMORPG Engines
It would be really great if a list of various engines for MMORPG's / PHP games was listed, for home creators, curious bystanders, students and general technophiles like myself. If someone could add such in the external links, or if they have enough time touch on engine dynamics of various common freeware engines or what not it'd be greatly appreciated. Jachin 23:22, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Health Risks + Impotence
Impotence is a result of poor circulation, just as when one sits for a long time on an airplane, sitting while playing MMORPG's causes blood to pool. If one does not restore circulation regularly this can cause permanent damage to the circulatory system. Since erections depend directly on said system, there is evidence (which is supported by other similar issues which lead to sitting for 7+ hours at a time) that those who play MMORPG's have a higher risk of impotence. The issue is the length of time spent sitting and a failure to regularly move about for extended periods, or perform exercises to promote good circulation.

For related information, see the studies which relate bike riding to impotence, even while exercising, thus promoting good circulation, sitting in such a way as to pinch the wrong vessel can restrict blood flow to the penis causing a higher risk of impotence. This is a common "sitting" injury.


 * Wow, I learn something new every day. :-) Sorry about the reverts, I had assumed that it was just an assumption (implied by the phrase "not currently accepted"), and so would come under WP:NOR, but it seems I was wrong.  -82.7.125.142 23:25, 11 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Most people don't realize the link between impotence and sitting, so you aren't alone. Cycle enthusiasts seem to be the most familiar due to their experience with selecting seats to reduce the problem.  Some companies claim to have seats which reduce the risk, but studies are inconclusive as to the real extent of the effect.