Talk:Massively multiplayer online role-playing game/Archive 4

Private Servers and the damage on companies
From the article: "Private servers have significantly damaged the commercial MMORPG development."

Is there a source confirming this? Things like these are often biased or hard to prove, the discussion of how big the damage of illegal filesharing really is, could be extended to this case; if a company could somehow remove all private servers in the world, would that player then proceed to buy the game? -- Sirius81 04:17, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Who coined the term?
I did not ask the question, but I am the one that answered it. I believe the term MMORPG was coined by Verant Interactive, 989 Studios and SOE, as EverQuest was the first game so labeled. --Bill W. Smith, Jr. 22:27, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

MMORPG Events
Is there some sort of article where there is information about events that happened in MMOs as a whole rather than individual MMOs, i.e. virtual plague in WoW, Massive amount of money spent on a virtual island, some guy killing another guy over a virtual sword etc. Or is that all put into the individual MMO articles? 202.81.18.30 04:17, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Items of truly historic importance belong in the main MMORPG article, especially if they represent a major trend. But items that are simply a reference to a current event are probably not good enough. In your example, the story about someone being murdered over a virtual sword is a good candidate for the Psychology of MMORPGs section of the article, but only if you can expand upon it by citing/referencing some good secondary sources who can illuminate why this is interesting beyond simply a news event (e.g., some form of analysis from an expert on how important people's virtual-goods are could be important to either the economics or psychology sections).

If you had enough information, perhaps there's even another section that could be added: Social Trends caused by MMORPGs, for example--and in that, we could talk about how MMORPGs have impacted society (crime would be only one example).

Whatever you do, please be sure to CITE and reference whatever you add. Until recently, there were 0 references in this article (now there are 25) and we still need to cite a lot of the existing material, without adding a lot of new unsupported content. Tarinth 18:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

"Such as"
The last time I was in here (months ago), I ripped out all the all variants on the phrase "such as" from this article -- they invite linkspam. Not too surprisingly, the "such as" phrases have crept back in. I'm planning on removing all "such as" phrases that are not supported as significant with external citation. And, BTW, I'd love help finding external citations that would help us define what games are significant enough to mention by name. For example, I've been looking for a definative external link citing the top 3 or 5 commercial MMORPGs.

The best I could find was a confidential Vivendi document comparing WoW with what Vivendi considered the major comercial competitors to WoW: Ultima Online, EverQuest, Final Fantasy, Runescape, and Lineage.

If anyone has access to the npd financial-market-tracking reports for software, or games, that might be a good place to start -- Mmcdougall 23:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

MMORPG is an inaccurate term; MMGS is the more appropriate term
Why was all of the MMGS terminology removed? MMORPG is an outdated an inaccurate term. Massively Multiplayer Gaming Service is a proper title for the genre- omitting the redundant parts (O for online- duh, you can't have an "offline" massively multiplayer game) and adding vital descriptors- "S" for service, to differntiate between non-MMGSs like Guild Wars and true MMGSs like EQ2 and WoW, from their design standpoint, which is the key. MMGSs have different designs, and it is not possible to have a true MMGS without some form of regular customer payment. It's simply a truth of the design process and the differences inherent within.

I'm not going to bother going back and editing this information in again, since it's just another example of the flaw of Wikipedia... but enjoy embracing that outdated terminology. If you'd like to start using "thee" and "thine" again, maybe you'll get a whole "archaic" English fad going or something!

MMORPG... lol. *shakes head* Just because someone's called something a "blarb" for a few years doesn't mean that they can't realize that "blorb" is the better term.


 * (sigh) First, sign your posts. Second, babbling about flaws in wikipedia makes it less likely anyone's going to listen to you. Third, please find some sources where you can find MMGS being used in place of MMORPG widely. The reason we don't use MMGS is that MMGS is a model for payment and structuring, and NOT a classification for games. That's like calling a game with lots of expansions a streamed-revenue series rather than The Sims. -- Elar  a  girl  Talk 02:53, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

GA delisting
Sorry, but this article very clearly does not meet the criteria for a Good Article. The page has an unreferenced tag at the top, four citation needed tags, and some sections that are not tagged as unreferenced, but nonetheless lack sources (e.g. the last three sections of the article). In addition, the "See also" section is far too large, especially since many of the articles listed are already linked to within the text. Best of luck, and feel free to resubmit the article to WP:GAC when it is completely sourced. -- Kicking222 16:48, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I changed it to failing, not delisting. Delisting is when it has passed and then gets taken off the list. You failed the article, you did not delist it. Greeves (talk • contribs) 20:52, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Taxation of Virtual Wealth (Removed statement)
"* The taxation of virtual wealth by real-world governments. "

The attached reference addresses the taxation of the conversion of virtual wealth into real dollars. As with any income-generating activity this has always been taxable, and the statement misleads the reader into thinking that governments actually want to tax the virtual dollars whether or not they are converted into real dollars. Neil916 (Talk) 17:00, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Source or Remove
I think we should get some sources very soon for the three last sections of the article that lack sources. This will allow us to remove the unsourced notice from the top of the page, and probably resubmit to GA. Also, in the cases where pages are linked to directly, they should be changed to internal Wiki links, or changed to reference tags.

Let's try and get the unsourced sections sourced by January, or let's remove the offending sections. Tarinth 22:51, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

We can't forget
Shawn Woolley, it would help to update information on him and add him to the MMORPG somehow.

I agree with this unsigned poster; though I've never heard of Woolley, he looks like a textbook example of Computer addiction, which we should definitely mention somewhere. The same paragraph could also include the story of Qiu Chengwei and Zhu Caoyuan - they jointly won a virtual sword in Legend of Mir 3, Caoyuan sold it online, and then Chengwei stabbed him to death. I've found this site, which would work as a reference: http://www.games.net/features/104664.shtml. --Beefnut 01:20, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


 * The problem I have with including that kind of information is the assumption of cause and effect. Did playing EQ cause Shawn to commit suicide? Or was he just one of those unfortunate persons that was so messed up he was gonna do it sooner or later anyway? Rock music made him do it. Cocaine made him do it. Jazz and liquor made him do it. People will always try to scapegoat one aspect of a persons life when something bizarre happens. It is human nature to look for a reason. It is also totally POV and has no place here unless you can find a TRULY scientific study that proves a causal link without initial bias. Good luck on that one. --Bill W. Smith, Jr. 01:33, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, yeah, we can't really say that MMORPGs cause suicides - still, it seems fair to mention that computer addiction does exist, and that since MMORPGs generally require such a large and regular time investment, they have more "addictive potential" than other computer games. Given that people have mentioned this sort of thing on this talk page before, it seems like this does need to be put in somewhere, though I can't figure out where. --Beefnut 12:58, 24 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. The MMORPG itself won't cause people to commit suicide, but they do have a strong addictive effect on the player, and they can be a great source of frustration (when you lose something in the game that you've worked hard to find, for example). An MMORPG can turn a casual gamer into a complete computer junkie who hasn't showered for days. You don't need any scientific studies to verify that fact. :) //Kada 16 Jan 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.100.14.48 (talk) 12:50, 16 January 2007 (UTC).

Entropia Universe
Its been breaking some headlines recently with its real world economy!


 * Player managed and virtual land sales.
 * Treasure Island US$ 26k
 * Club NEVERDIE US$ 100k
 * About a dozen Land Areas just last month selling at an average of US$1.5k

It should have more of a mention in here? Project Entropia (unsigned)


 * We really have to decide whether or not it's an MMORPG, first. Having not played it, I can't really say.  I get the feeling it probably falls in the same category as Second Life does, and I'm pretty sure that's not an RPG, and therefore not an MMORPG. -Beefnut 06:23, 21 December 2006 (UTC)


 * If Entropia is not a MMORPG, I don't know why. Look at our lead paragraph (key terms in bold):


 * MMORPG (massively multiplayer online role-playing game) is a genre of online computer role-playing games (RPG) in which a large number of players interact with one another in a virtual world. As in all RPGs, players assume the role of a fictional character (most commonly in a fantasy setting) and take control over many of that character's actions. MMORPGs are distinguished from single-player or small multi-player RPGs by the number of players, and by the game's persistent world, usually hosted by the game's publisher, which continues to exist and evolve while the player is away from the game.


 * Heck, it is Massive and Multiplayer. It's Online. You control a character and Role-Play. Are they contending that it's not a Game? --Habap 19:39, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, I have NO experience with Entropia but if it is comparable to Second Life... SL is NOT a MMORPG mainly because it is NOT a game! It is a virtual social environment (i.e chat room with benefits). --Bill W. Smith, Jr. 17:54, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I just got this from the Project Entropia: "There are no strict levels within the Entropia Universe, and it is not officially categorized as an MMORPG; however, it shares elements of regular MMORPGs, in that skills and special items figure prominently."

'nuff said? --Bill W. Smith, Jr. 17:58, 22 December 2006 (UTC)


 * No, Bill, I don't think that's enough. It sounds like both Second Life and Project Entropia simply choose not to refer to themselves as games or RPGs. Role-playing games don't have to have "levels" to be RPGs. Of the top of my head, I can come up with three role-playing games that had no "levels": Twilight 2000, The Morrow Project, Traveller (role-playing game). Each of them had a skill system, but, if memory serves, had no levels or classes. It's perfectly fine for SL and PE to decide that they are not MMORPGs and state that in their marketing materials, but, by our definitions, they are actually MMORPGs.


 * Game: A game is a structured or semi-structured activity, usually undertaken for enjoyment. They are usually fun activities that can be educational or purely just for fun. The term "game" is also used to describe simulation of various activities e.g., for the purposes of training, analysis or prediction, etc., see "Game (simulation)".


 * Role-playing game: A role-playing game (RPG, often roleplaying game) is a type of game in which the participants assume the roles of fictional characters and collaboratively create or follow stories. Participants determine the actions of their characters based on their characterization, and the actions succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines. Within the rules, players can improvise freely; their choices shape the direction and outcome of the games.


 * MMORPG:MMORPG (massively multiplayer online role-playing game) is a genre of online computer role-playing games (RPG) in which a large number of players interact with one another in a virtual world. As in all RPGs, players assume the role of a fictional character (most commonly in a fantasy setting) and take control over many of that character's actions. MMORPGs are distinguished from single-player or small multi-player RPGs by the number of players, and by the game's persistent world, usually hosted by the game's publisher, which continues to exist and evolve while the player is away from the game.


 * Though the third paragraph in the article on games does include "goals" as an aspect of games, all RPGs can be equally diverse in their goals. Some characters will have money as their goal, or power, or better skills, or perhaps social notoriety. So, the fact that SL and PE don't tell you what your goals are is no different from the examples I've listed above. The players decide their own goals.


 * I think it's simply silly to claim the neither SL or PE is an MMORPG from a sociological viewpoint. --Habap 21:31, 22 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, okay then. If we're gonna keep our current definition of MMORPG, then it sounds like we should go ahead and put both Second Life and Entropia in the history section, as they're surely notable enough, and fit the definition.  It still does sound sort of wrong to me, but that's probably because my conception of "RPG" is different from what the term actually means.  --Beefnut 13:08, 24 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree that Second Life and similar products belong in the list. Just because a publisher does not define their game within a particular category does not mean that the industry, media and users of a product do not consider it part of a category (the difference is between marketing/positioning versus real-world perceptions). Tarinth 18:48, 24 December 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, I am convinced. SL and Entropia are, technically, MMORPGs. If we are trying to include links to all MMORPGs they should be included, although I think policy probably indicates we should have a separate page for a list of MMORPGs and NOT include that list here.... just link to it. --Bill W. Smith, Jr. 19:01, 24 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, the how of including them is the greater challenge. Since Second Life already appears in the article, if we add PE, it should probably go in the same section, as the main difference between PE/SL and the rest is the real-world economic impact. --Habap 19:32, 24 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Personally, after playing Second Life, I'm not convinced it's an MMORPG. There is a lack of "assuming the role" ie. of fictional characters, as many players simply create representations of themselves RL and interact with the world as themselves, and only to interact/discourse with its inhabitants (is that definable as an RPG goal?). It is fairly common, to the point that I would term SL more of a 3-d enabled chat room than an MMORPG. The flaw in calling it an MMORPG lies in the fact that the role the game plays differs from player to player. It is not so much the intent of the publisher as the purpose the game has come to serve, and I think this is too nebulous for the game to be defined strictly as an MMORPG.


 * There are social MU*s that enable players to build, interact and mold the world after their own purposes, with no set goal, but by no means are these games lumped in with RPG MU*s, or defined as such, if we are to go by Richard Bartle's definitions (refer to his website, in which he sets social worlds apart by virtue of their purpose). Concordantly, lumping social 3D games in with MMORPGs is a mistake, to me. {Caliah 00:32, 22 February 2007 (UTC)}

pronounce it?
how are you supposed to pronounce "mmorpg", is it simply "em em oh arr pee gee"? --Sonjaaa 06:17, 1 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Yep. -Beefnut 14:11, 1 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Agree: you spell it, not pronounce it. Coll7 19:40, 1 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I've heard and use "mum-orr-pug" (schwas on the 'u's, it sounds better than it reads). --McGeddon 12:41, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

List of top 10 most populated??
Where can I find a list of the ones with the highest number of active user online on average? I'm assuming WOW is in the top 10 if it's not number 1. What are the top 10?--Sonjaaa 20:30, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * im thinkin that Runescape is #1 (with 10million users) but it would be helpful to me if i could have the 10 most populated list of MMORPGs131.109.43.30 17:59, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
 * here is the wiki page with the list rofl http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mmorpgs131.109.43.30 18:02, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
 * A good website for MMO rankings is MMOGCHART.COM. Greeves (talk • contribs) 01:47, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Post-GA delisting notes
As I delisted the article from WP:GAC, Tarinth, who has done a splendid job on this article thusfar, asked me to comment on its current state. I must say that I am pleased that the "See also" section has been significantly trimmed down, and some of the previously-uncited statements are now referenced. However, there is still much work to be done on this article; the unreferenced tag at the top of the article should certainly still be there. There are almost too many unsourced statements to count; I tagged one statement with fact, and then realized that the next two paragraphs were also unsourced. However, I am quite pleased with the work that has been done thusfar. This is not yet a Good Article, but it is a good article- one that is better than the large majority of pages on Wikipedia. I have one specific problem in regards to the "Early commercial development" section: This section's heading contains an inline citation (which I've never seen before), leading me to believe that the entirety of the section (except for the last sentence, which has a separate source) comes from one source. This should rarely, if ever be done; it's far better to cross-reference large sections of text. Aside from that, there simply need to be more references, especially the whole of the "History" section- which, of course, is the largest and most important section of the article- and the very end of the article. With all of that said, I think this article is very well done, and its editors should be commended. While it's not incredibly close to being a Good Article yet, the fact remains that only 4,000 or so articles are rated as GAs, A-Class, or FAs. When only one quarter of one percent of articles are rated as GA or better, it's hard to break into that class, but I have no doubt that, in time, this article will make it. Best of luck! -- Kicking222 01:05, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Origin of the Term
The article currently has an unsourced statement that the term emerged in 1998 when MMORPG was used to describe products from Verant and 989. So far I haven't been able to find a source for this. The earliest use of the term MMORPG on Usenet is June 25, 1998:

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg/browse_frm/thread/6833bc91d9f07304/694afb4fa356754e?lnk=st&q=mmorpg&rnum=1#694afb4fa356754e

We could change the statement here to say that the term first came into use on Usenet in 1998, using this as a reference, unless someone has a better source for the origin.

Tarinth 16:12, 26 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I know the term 'MMORPG' was in use long before 1998 because we used it (and I believe coined it) at 3DO in 1996. We were looking for how to classify Meridian 59; it wasn't a MUD (and 3DO management wouldn't allow that usage as they didn't like the connotation), and informally we had been referring to "large-n" and "small-n" games, where "n" is the number of players, but that didn't stick with marketing at all.  Someone suggested in a meetinng that these weren't just multiplayer games but that they were bigger than that... in the course of the meeting "massively multiplayer" came up, along the lines of "massively parallel" and the like.  From there 'MMOFRPG' and 'MMORPG' became common usage (always spelled out, not pronounced).


 * Archetypist 27 December 2006


 * Thanks for this contribution. Can you help us come up with a source for this? Tarinth 18:42, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I added to the section on the origin of the name, because this is still unsourced. If we can't get a source for this that documents the origin of the term, I think we'll need to go with a simple statement that the term first emerged on Usenet in 1998, since that is the only verifiable source we've come up with so far. Tarinth 13:30, 28 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know that I still have any of the materials from that period, but I'll check around. Without further attribution I'd suggest citing both the 1996 date and the verifiable (?) 1998 date.


 * Archetypist 28 December 2006


 * Hopefully you can find something--otherwise I'm more inclined just to go with the verifiable Usenet posting, or otherwise this will become an edit-war (maybe a slow one) where people who worked for various early MMO companies will try and take credit for being first... Tarinth 16:38, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Update - I found a secondary source (GameSpy) that backs up the assertion that "MMORPG" emerged as a term with 3DO/Meridian 59, so I've used that citation in the article. Tarinth 20:19, 10 January 2007 (UTC)