Talk:Mastiff/Archive 1

Old English
The Old English Mastiff isn't listed on List of dog breeds. Is there another name for it under which it appears in that list? If not, it needs to be added to that list. Elf | Talk 17:26, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * It's another name for the breed the kennel clubs call a "Mastiff" . The problem is, of course, that "mastiff" or "mastiff-type" is used for several breeds as listed in this article. But the Mastiff itself is a recognised breed, and so "English Mastiff" or "Old English Mastiff" are sometimes used to make the distinction clearer.


 * So, how should we deal with this? As all the kennel clubs call the breed "Mastiff" we would usually have the article about that specific breed here.  But having this listing of all mastiff-type dogs also make sense.  Perhaps the article should be at Old English Mastiff leaving this general article here.  Or we could move this to Mastiff-type dogs and put the specific breed article here. -- sannse (talk) 08:37, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Hmmm, interesting. "Mastiff-type" doesn't seem appropriate because it would be inconsistent with, e.g., Setter, Spaniel, Terrier, and so on, which are not labeled "-type". But of course they aren't overloaded onto breed  names.  I've checked a couple of my (American) books quickly and plain English Mastiff is the secondary name listed in both.  So I'm thinking that we might use that for the breed entry, with a strong statement in the Mastiff article at the top that this refers both to a type and to a breed.  I don't know how many people really would do a search *first* on "Old English Mastiff" vs. plain Mastiff or English Mastiff.  (Erg, or now I'm waffling--since we have to make a strong point at the beginning anyway, we could use this for the breed and xref to Mastiff type-- I don't know that we need to say Mastiff-type DOG--is there anything else that's of mastiff type? ;-) ) Elf | Talk 15:44, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Well, I know of a couple of mastiff-type people ;) My (English) books are split, with two using "Old English Mastiff" with "Mastiff" as the secondary name, one using the opposite and one using "Mastiff" as the primary and "English Mastiff" as the secondary (the last is the most modern of my books).  So my feeling is that either solution would work, and I feel that the most elegant is your first sugestion - to put the breed article at English Mastiff and leave this as it is - but make it clear on this page that "Mastiff" is also used as the breed name for a particular type of mastiff.  -- sannse (talk) 16:58, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * I've gone ahead and made these changes -- sannse (talk) 08:05, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Does not belong
The American Mastiff is NOT A RECOGNIZED BREED. It does not belong on this list! Mastiffowner (talk) 18:05, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Word
There should be some mention of the origin and meaning of the word. Drutt (talk) 20:47, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Pugs, staffies, pitbulls, and boston terriers?

 * Are any of those breeds really mastiffs? The article states that "Mastiffs are a group of large, solidly built breeds of dogs", true, these dogs are all solidly built, but none of them are "large" (compared to the Bullmastiff for example), or normaly considered mastiffs (look at the FCI "Molossoid" section of group two). Pharaoh Hound 12:34, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, there are several dogs that shouldn't be on this list:


 * American Staffordshire Terrier -- a terrier, not a mastiff
 * American Pit Bull Terrier -- ditto
 * Boston Terrier -- ditto
 * Bull Terrier (Miniature) -- ditto
 * Pug -- ???
 * Rhodesian Ridgeback -- this is a hound
 * Staffordshire Bull Terrier -- terrier

I question several of the other additions as well. Exploding Boy 00:32, 17 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Pitts, Staffies etc are not terriers. They have some terrier ancestry and some small mastiff ancestry. The old bulldog breeds were crossed with terriers. Some people who breed and handle these dogs don't think they have _any_ terrier ancestry. I think genetics are going to settle these questions soon. 65.79.173.135 (talk) 18:41, 2 July 2014 (UTC)Will in New Haven65.79.173.135 (talk) 18:41, 2 July 2014 (UTC)


 * According to the Mastiff Club of America,

A Mastiff is a giant breed of dog, descended from the ancient Alaunt and Molosser. The general term 'mastiff' is used to refer to many different breeds around the world, probably all descended from the same root stock. The proper noun 'Mastiff', however, is used to refer to a specific breed of mastiff, the breed that originated in England over 2,000 years ago. Mastiffs (also frequently referred to as English Mastiffs, or incorrectly, as Old English Mastiffs (OEM's)) are generally very large dogs; fawn, apricot or brindle in color; all with a black mask and ears; possessing a medium to short coat with very little white.  '''Breeds such as the Bullmastiff, Dogue de Bordeaux, Fila Brasileiro, Mastin Del Pirineo, Mastin Espanol, Neapolitan Mastiff, Tibetan Mastiff, and many others fall into the larger category "Molosser", but they are not 'Mastiffs'. Each is a separate and distinct breed.''' Exploding Boy 01:35, 17 June 2006 (UTC)


 * They may be distinct breeds, but this category is for molossoids, not just mastiffs (though perhaps the name is somewhat inaccrurate), so Bullmastiffs, Neos, Dogue de Bordeax etc should stay. But I'm removing all the terriers and hounds that you suggested, as well as the French Bulldog, there's no way that it's a mastiff. --Pharaoh Hound 11:36, 17 June 2006 (UTC)


 * But this isn't a category, it's an article. All the breeds not named XX Mastiff should be removed from this article page and placed on the Molosser page (if it exists) or in the Molosser category (if it exists).  Exploding Boy 17:10, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

There IS a molosser page, but that page just says that "molloser" is another name for mastiff. And there is no category for mastiffs or molossers. I think that this page is supposed to be about molossers, but ended up being called mastiff (look at the disussion above, it is stated that this page is about "mastiff type" dogs, AKA molossers). Maybe this is because of the fact that the word "molosser" isn't in much use in North America (in fact, the only KC that I've ever seen use the word is the FCI). --Pharaoh Hound 19:00, 17 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Then maybe this page should be moved to Molosser and cleaned up, and Mastiff redirected to English Mastiff? Exploding Boy 21:12, 17 June 2006 (UTC)


 * That sounds good to me, though it may be somewhat controversal. Do you know if there's some way to tag proposed moves like there is for proposed merges (if that is possible, it might be the best way to do it) --Pharaoh Hound 21:30, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

No, not that I know of. I'm not sure why it should be controversial: we're not going to actually remove any content, just organize it better. Exploding Boy 21:32, 17 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Very true, and I guess that there's little sense in keeping this confusing name in place. --Pharaoh Hound 21:37, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, well I'll go ahead and do it. Exploding Boy 21:56, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Capitalization
Is there a reason Mastiff is always capitalized? - Oreo Priest  talk 15:48, 15 June 2009 (UTC)


 * It shouldn't be, eg From The Mastiff Club Of America Website.." The general term 'mastiff' is used to refer to many different breeds around the world, probably all descended from the same root stock. The proper noun 'Mastiff', however, is used to refer to a specific breed of mastiff, the breed that originated in England over 2,000 years ago. " and a UK site: "The proper noun "Mastiff", however, is used to refer to the English Mastiff, a breed that originated from Celtic dogs in England over two thousand years ago. Other terms include "Mastín" (Spanish)), "Dogge" (Germanic)), and "dogue" or "dogo" (Romance languages))."  Doug Weller  talk 16:42, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

Inclusion of three breeds
Three breeds, I think, need to be included in here:
 * Pyrenean Mastiff
 * Rafeiro do Alentejo
 * Spanish MastiffMalcolmlucascollins (talk) 18:43, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose, despite their names they are not mastiffs. Cavalryman V31 (talk) 07:44, 10 June 2019 (UTC).

Problems with this article — and the table needs to be removed in favor of a simple list
This article has some serious problems with it that need fixing. I'm putting my notes here until I have some time to work on it; or someone else is welcome to also fix the article. — Nomopbs (talk) 23:21, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Almost the entire lede paragraph is WP:OR. The entire lede cannot be simply deleted because it has no citation support. Citations need to be found or the wording changed to cover the citations that are available.
 * Lede, sentence 2 is not supported by the citation. ("The term "mastiff-type" has been used synonymously with the term "molosser"." )
 * Lede, sentence 3 is not supported by the citation. ("For example, the bulldog breeds, the Great Dane, mountain dogs, pit bulls and even smaller dogs, such as the Boston Terrier, may be considered "mastiff-types" in this broad sense." )
 * Lede, sentence 4, is not supported by the citation. ("The descriptive term, mastiff-type, should not be confused with breed names such as Bullmastif, Argentine Mastiff or English Mastiff, that may be commonly referred to as simply "Mastiff"." )
 * Boston Terriers are not mastiffs, don't look like other mastiffs, don't have the size of a mastiff, and shouldn't be mentioned in the article. In fact, no small dogs should be included as mastiffs despite what their FACE looks like.
 * Including anything small contradicts the first sentence in the article: "Mastiff-type means a large molosser dog."
 * The list of breeds should be a simple list like the one in the Dogo (dog type) article. Almost every entry has a link to its own page; nothing more needs be said. If there is no other page, then make a short sentence in the list next to the entry. The list does not need to be a table of information. If a particular breed's page gets edited/corrected, who is to know there is ALSO this table (and another one on Molosser and another one on Bulldog breeds that also needs fixing. There are numerous errors in the list; too many to fix.
 * I'm sure there are a zillion paragraphs, articles, and essays in Wikipedia backpages to explain why such a table would not be appropriate over a simple list.
 * The section titled "Semantic overlap with other terms" has been citation-less for over 5 years! Time to either fix it (find a citation) or delete it.

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Merger proposal:Bandog
I propose to merge bandog into this page. The three lengthy descriptive quotes included in the bandog article use the terms bandog and mastiff interchangeably, further most of the other sources use it interchangeably or the context is not inconsistent with a mastiff. Cavalryman (talk) 22:23, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Support, given that the oldest reference from Dr Caius in 1570 refers to "Mastives, or Bandedog". Bewick in 1790, when writing on the mastiff, states that: "The generality of dogs distinguished by that name, seem to be compounded of the Bull-Dog, Danish Mastiff, and the Ban-Dog", so in his view they were all part of the same lineage (rightly or wrongly).  William Harris Canis lupis track.svg talk Canis lupis track.svg 07:52, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Support - yeppers, needs to be merged. Atsme Talk 📧 19:17, 25 February 2020 (UTC)