Talk:Mata Hari/Archive 1

This article is complete crap
This article is complete crap and needs to be rewritten from scratch. Adam 09:30, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
 * What an extremely helpful comment. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.162.34.103 (talk • contribs) 14:57, November 28, 2006.
 * It doesn't seem to altogether do the subject justice, tho - perhaps a moot point in her case.

Paying attention to edits
Please pay more attention to vandalism edits see this diff. While someone obviously reverted the bit about martin luther king, in all the months since then no one bothered to revert the change in the link.--Crossmr 00:16, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Board Game
There is a board game of the same name, right? Mathiastck 22:21, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Removed "Inappropriate tone" tag
I came into the article with no real prior knowledge of the subject because it was on the front page today, and I found nothing wrong with it. It seems at least as well written and probably better written than a lot of Wikipedia articles. Spalding 12:15, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
 * There are a lot of points where the article makes colorful points about her character or her place in culture that seem to stray from including neutral, sourced information for the sake of writing an interesting story. It's not as bad now as it was, since I changed the example that caught my eye when I added the tag (" Naturally, popular imagination was fired..."), but it still just doesn't feel right because it's got no sourcing for its big claims, that she caught the public eye in her own time and became a literal overnight hit. Reading the referenced article, it says she got to sensation status in under six months from when she started out--which is still not literally an overnight hit.  We're out to tell the good stories in wikipedia through the virtue of their own facts, not superfluous prose. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 18:04, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Added a reference for the "overnight success" claim. It seems to be literally true, and it is true that it occurred very rapidly, which is the usual meaning of the phrase. Hu 18:34, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I tagged it because of the casual and informal language. It's been improved a fair bit, but I don't know if 'grim' in but as the times grew more grim is formal enough. ''At the time of her arrest, France was at a low point in the war. Morale was down, there was seemingly no end in sight, hundreds of thousands of both Central Powers and Triple Entente forces had died, and there was a hunger for a scapegoat. The now-famous Dutchwoman seemed to fit the role.'' reads like a story. Iorek85 22:21, 15 October 2006 (UTC)


 * There are several instances of inappropriate tone, such as "her spirit overflowed with eroticism..."--Jack Upland 06:27, 14 January 2007 (UTC)


 * What does a nine year-old self-styled 'child progeny' know of what is or what is not 'appropriate'?

Mata-mata
Note that, coincidentally, mata-mata means spy in Indonesian.

First of all, the term mata-mata (literally eye-eye) doesn't actually mean 'spy'. It means 'police' in colloquial Indonesian and Malay.

Secondly, it has little to do with Mata Hari. The police are said to be 'all eyes' or always on the look out for crime.

I would've removed the sentence myself, but I didn't want to step on anyone's toes.

--Nestum82 09:07, 7 September 2005 (UTC)


 * i am an Indonesian, and yes, mata-mata is a common word to describe spy in Indonesian language. :)
 * andry 14:05, 25 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Mata mata/matamata is also a South American turtle, and, coincidentally, 'turtle' is used in Chinese slang to refer to a prostitute, presumably to suggest a compliant nature, 'turtle master' meaning 'pimp,' a common insult traditionally, and once again in in revisionist China. Also in English slang, apparently.

A firing squad?! What a waste of good...(Oct.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.24.95.218 (talk • contribs) 17:09, 15 October 2005
 * It would be in your case.

Lyric & Scissor Sisters
While I understand that it is a rather insignificant point, I have removed the reference to the Scissor Sister's single "Get It Get It".

The original line said that the first line of the song is "Mata Hari dances - whenever I'm with you." The real lyrics are: "My heart - it dances - whenever I'm with you"

I ran a google search of the lyrics, and tried the top five websites for lyrical content, all of which had the lyrics as "My heart - it dances..."

I would much rather the song reference Mata Hari, as I think it makes the lyrics much more suggestive and dangerous, but *sigh* it does not.

76.197.230.112 18:53, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Generic Writing of History Question
This is kind of a dumb, possibly irrelevant question, but the article states this: “Although it has been speculated since that there was no concrete evidence, she was nevertheless found guilty and was executed by firing squad …”; if a person is possibly executed without reasonable evidence, could that be considered they were possibly murdered by the state?

"Murder by the state" would likely be considered non-neutral language, albeit there are plenty of incidents in world history that trial and execution was no more than such. The burning of Joan of Arc, for example.

But states generally don’t murder. They post a bounty (fatwa, whatever). They call for assassination. They execute. They force disappearance. They wage war. To suggest that a sovereign entity commits murder tends to imply doubt in its legitimacy as a state government than to highlight the heinousness of its crimes. Uriel-238 13:25, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

most definitions of murder define it in terms of one person intentionally ending the life of another, and would therefore not apply to any arbitrary agent. For instance: Given this it doesn't make sense to talk about a state agency committing murder. Speed8ump 16:36, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
 * "the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law." (dictionary.com) "another human being" implies action by one human being against another.
 * "The unlawful killing of one human by another" (American Heritage Dictionary)

I think this discussion is largely irrelevant, but nothing above leads to the conclusion that a state can't murder (e.g. the Holocaust). There is nothing in the legal definition of murder which makes it an individual act (obviously).--Jack Upland 06:30, 14 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Murder is, I think, a loaded term, when discussing the actions of non-individual entities. I think the Holocaust would fall under Genocide. Ironically, part of Hitler's ambition was the reinstatement of monarchies and feudalism, re-linking the states to the individuals who ruled them, and hence, were he successful, putting the blood of the Holocaust victims directly on his hands, and not on the proverbial hands of Germany.


 * The question of relevance regards whether it can (or even should) be said that France murdered Mata Hari (by firing squad). I suppose she did if we also said that England murdered Joan of Arc.Uriel-238 23:25, 26 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Not really. I mean, the article said she was put on trial in France, found guilty, and executed as the result. The definition of execution as found on Wikipedia (!) is such: "Capital punishment, also known as the death penalty, is the execution of a convicted criminal by the state as punishment for crimes known as capital crimes or capital offences." So yeah, basically this whole conversation is pointless. Shadowrun 08:07, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Biographical Errors Corrected
Mata Hari's daughter, Non, died at the age of 21 from what appears to be a stroke, long after the execution of her mother. At the same time, the most authoritative book on the woman, Mata Hari: The True Story, by Russell Warren Howe mentions nothing about a marriage after McLeod or a daughter named "Flora." She had only two children--Non, and a boy who was poisoned in Java. The article has been edited accordingly. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.186.132.61 (talk) 01:00, 6 May 2007 (UTC).

Knots Landing
I removed the following entry from "Legend and popular culture -> Miscellaneous":

"In the 1980's American prime-time series Dallas II: Knots Landing, in episode 2, the character of Karen McKenzie mentions how she always wanted to play Mata Hari."

The Knots Landing page does not list an actress named Karen McKenzie, and I couldn't find her via google either. So the whole thing doesn't sound very convincing, besides, it is not all too notable anyway. — Graf Bobby 00:47, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

The character is Karen McKenzie, not the actress ... that is Michelle Lee. Not that it probably matters. Mapjc 01:44, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

'Alleged double agent' section
The sentence which starts 'Remarkably...' is tortuous, tenebrous and doesn't seem to make any sense or suggest that the author has a good grasp of his/her subject matter (what is it that attracts those least familiar with matters of intelligence to write about them?). What is 'remarkable' about wartime enemies cracking each other's communication codes, particularly in the context of alleged double agents? What seems to have happened is quite simple - the Germans seem to have decided to dispose of Ms.McLeod by depicting her to the intercepting French Intelligence as an active German agent, a ruse the French seem to have fallen for hook, line and sinker, resulting in her effective martyrdom. Altho the idea of Mata Hari as scapegoat, discussed in this section, sounds plausible, it doesn't address the possibility that the French authorities were acting in good faith, having succumbed to the German ruse to make them dispose of their own agent. What would make the warring nations collude in her destruction, apart from misogeny - unless her information was also effectively undermining the predominantly male activity of war itself.

24.143.70.192 You seem to be getting both sides of the argument from this same article; cracking a communication code, especially before computers were used to compile data was about the hardest -and most remarkable thing- people of intelligence did.

Regarding the writing of the article, I think it was written by someone who's first language is not English, which is fine (English is not my first language either) but that accounts for the sentence structure and the writing sounding a little off. Also, Rigorous citation is an anglo (and mostly American) proclivity, so that may account for the lack of sources provided. 11/09/07 philosopher2king —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.143.70.192 (talk) 19:02, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Discovery
"Remarkably, the messages were in a code that German intelligence knew had already been broken by the French, leaving some historians to suspect that the messages were contrived so that, if she was in fact working for the French, they would be able to unmask her as a double agent and effectively neutralize her." I took out the end of that sentence, as even the article makes it clear there is disagreement on how and why Mata Hari's downfall came about. For example, the 'framed by Ladoux' theory has it that he has actually planted the messages himself. There are other theories as well, but they don't need to go there, I believe. --76.18.93.72 (talk) 09:49, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Early Life Section Needs Major Cleaning
The Early Life section needs a lot of work. Some things are editorialized or come across as plain subjectivities as in:

"She was not known for being remarkably beautiful, but her spirit was overflowing with eroticism." I don't think anyone writing in wikipedia these days knew her back then to know that about her (it would be anecdotal anyway) so that comment needs to be qualified, as in "it was said..." and a proper source given. Other uncredited claims become apparent when one reads this section.

I usually don't make suggestions if I cannot fix them myself, but I know nothing about Mata Hari except what I just read in this article (part of my "learn something everyday" habit). So hopefully a Mata Hari buff who has read a few of her biographies will take some time to clean this section up a bit.

Cheers! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.143.70.192 (talk) 18:49, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

''Their son died in 1899, possibly of complications relating to the treatment of syphilis contracted from his parents, though the family claimed he was poisoned by an irate servant. Some historians believe that possibly one of Rudolf's enemies may have poisoned the child.'' This could use a bit of cleaning (the rest of the article looks okay as of now.) It reads like these 3 possibilities should be merged into a single thought, and/or the reasoning for each explained in greater depth.--Sobekneferu (talk) 21:59, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Mata Hari Images
I would like to include a PD image of Mati Hari that is in color which would enhance the article and one taken shortly before she was executed. If anyone would have any objections please place them on this page.-- Dakota ~  °  05:18, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 * There certainly appear to be more definitive images available, altho they may be subject to copyright. Also, it doesn't seem easy to find the legendary nude photographic portraits on the Net.
 * 5 seconds http://www.mata-hari.com/images/mata-hari.com-1911.jpg Mach10 (talk) 10:24, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Name
Mata Hari this name is assoiciated with Indian people. I thought that it is man's name from India philosophy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.253.247.66 (talk • contribs) 16:08, 15 October 2006

The article is incorrect. Mata means "mother", and Hari is a name of Vishnu, not a generic word for God. However, I have no idea whether the name was chosen because of any deep knowledge of Sanskrit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.183.65.81 (talk) 16:57, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Are you crazy?
The René Crevel novel Ètes-vous fous ? (this translates as “Are you crazy?” in English, but I have no idea whether the novel itself has been translated into English), written between the wars, has a character called Myrto-Myrta, an exotic dancer executed by firing squad as a spy. She can only be a parody of Mata Hari. In the novel, however, she is revived by a lover, but her continued survival is dependent on her having sex frequently, with fatal effects on her partners. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.209.131.192 (talk) 08:40, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

apa@ apan ini dari bem_sius@yahoo.co.id —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.165.106.147 (talk) 15:37, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment
I see this was nominated for GA. (This is just a remark, not an actual GA evaluation.) Well, this is a pretty good article on Mata Hari. Ours, not so much. Some translation would be in order. Biruitorul Talk 02:19, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Her name meaning
In all the articles online about Mata Hari not one of them uses the Sanskrit meaning. Her name is cited as meaning "Eye of the Day" in Malayan.

''When reporters and others interviewed her, Margaretha continually added to the mystique that surrounded her by spinning fantastic, fictionalized stories about her background, including being a Javanese princess and daughter of a baron. To sound more exotic, she took the stage name "Mata Hari," Malayan for "eye of the day" (the sun).'' http://history1900s.about.com/od/1910s/p/MataHari.htm

You can find the same meaning all over. Though Mata is Sankrit means "Mother" I don't think that was what she was intending.

I'm going to change it if someone doesn't. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.118.34.33 (talk) 17:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC).

I came to the same conclusion when I clicked and read one of the references in this article: http://www.crimelibrary.com/terrorists_spies/spies/hari/5.html

"She wanted a new life so she baptized herself with a new name: Mata Hari. In Malay, matahari is the term for the sun.  Literally speaking, it means “eye of dawn.” " 82.172.96.127 12:40, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Doesn't "hari" mean "day"; cf. Selamat hari ulangtahun = Happy birthday? RahadyanS 06:51, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

==> Yes: Mata Hari is literally: 'eye of the day', meaning nothing else than 'sun' (user:saskia.louise)


 * OK, Mata could mean "mother", but Hari??? Hare is a Hindu divine name, but the Sanskrit word for "god" is dev--Jack Upland 06:32, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I prefer to rewrite "This can also be translated as "Eye of the Dawn" in Malay or Indonesian." into "This can also be translated as "The Sun" in Malay or Indonesian (literally, "Mata Hari" means "Eye of the Day)." Kembangraps 14:23, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd leave out 'also' and remove the reference to Sanskrit altogether.--Valmont7 19:54, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. At least until someone can find a good reference for the Sanskrit meaning. dragunovadiscuss 17:59, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The OED gives this:


 * Origin from Malay mata ‘eye’ and hari ‘day,’ as a compound meaning ‘sun.’


 * --UnicornTapestry (talk) 12:16, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Removal of Nude Photo?
It is absolutely not an image of Mata Hari--she famously never bore her breasts because she was ashamed of their size (See every biography written on her--she famously told admirers the reason for her modesty was that her former husband bit off her nipples in a fit of rage, though this was not true). I may delete the image if there are no objections.


 * You are not having a fit of prudence are you? I don't know how true it is, but the article mentions she had no problems to "pose nude", i think that includes breasts.. Hers don't seem outsized one way or another, on the dressed pictures. On a sidenote i met relatives of "mata hari", that suggested she was interested in emancipation politics (and peace) wich fits her choice of name unexpectedly well.(there will not be peace without spies) An ancient nude fotograph would suit her article as she became some kind of symbol for the influence of woman and had an impact on the mores of her times. My guess is she would like it to be there.77.251.179.188 12:12, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The unattributed commented that opened this section is correct: Biographies invariably mention that she never bared her breasts, not even in bed.


 * --UnicornTapestry (talk) 12:19, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Scientific research?
I question the topic heading. What kind of science? Quantum physics? Biochemistry?

I'm changing the name to simply Museum which shouldn't change the thrust of that section.

--UnicornTapestry (talk) 12:22, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Further to this, I was tempted to combine this topic as a subheading under Legends and Popular Culture, but left it for now. Still, it seems awkward where it stands now.

--UnicornTapestry (talk) 12:32, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

MacLeod is Scottish, not Dutch
I always thought "MacLeod" is a Scottish name. It means "Son of Leod" in Scottish Gaelic. There's nothing Dutch to it - or are you trying to say that McLeod is a Dutchman of Scottish descent? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.168.95.225 (talk • contribs) 09:16, 15 October 2006
 * In fact, there are many people of Scottish descent living in the Netherlands. This dates back to the Eighty Years' War, when mercenaries from all over Europe (especially from protestant countries like Scotland) were recruited to serve in the Dutch States-General army.   12.74.162.121 14:28, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Your use of the word 'mercenary' seems somewhat POV. How is paid military service in the defence of correligionist nations any more 'mercenary' than any other profession?


 * In both Brtish and American English, "mercenary", as a noun, means any person who serves in the military of a power to which he does not owe personal allegiance. (The key distinction being that a national soldier swears an oath of fealty, while a mercenary does not.) 208.51.227.50 (talk) 21:43, 15 October 2008 (UTC)


 * And when we look at Grietje Zelle from the specific perspective of her protestant background, does it not indeed shed some light on the groundbreaking nature of her career, elevating exotic dancing to an art form and an alternative, for women of limited means, to prostitution, as well as her ultimate martyrdom at the hands of the French authorities?

Execution Eyewitness
I don't much like that we have a huge block of quoted text telling the entire story of her execution. Wikipedia uses sources, yes, but it shouldn't regurgitate them in their entirety. The story of the execution bulks up the article hugely and doesn't add much encyclopedic knowledge that a few sentences saying "she was executed on such-and-such day in such-and-such manner" don't. Is there a reason we need to keep the entire section, instead of just having a quote or two from the eyewitness account for flavor? keɪɑtɪk flʌfi (talk) 13:03, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Pop culture cruft, redux
So after staring at this article for entirely too long, it seems to me that the numerous references to individual pop culture works are...unnecessary. They seem to just attract more cruft, and in exchange don't add much encyclopedic knowledge that isn't already covered by the two paragraphs that head the "Legend and popular culture" section. The most notable individual item, the Garbo movie, is already included in the prose, which is fairly comprehensive of the role of Mata Hari in popular culture. The rest are more or less (often VERY) tangential trivia, which is discouraged by WP:Trivia. I'd like to propose, quite boldly, that we remove the lists of individual works entirely. Opinions? keɪɑtɪk flʌfi (talk) 22:21, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree completely. The removal of the trivia has done wonders to improve the article. Valmont7 (talk) 03:16, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Scorpio???
she's supposed to be a scorpio, so the birth date is wrong... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.140.245.253 (talk • contribs) 15:35, 8 September 2006


 * Supposed by whom? The native shows many of the alleged characteristics of a Leo, and the attempt to make her a Scorpio (associated with death, sex, treachery, and a 'sting in the tail') seem part of an attempt to demonise her by her killers, who also, perhaps, seek to play down the fact that her career was as much an escape from the extremes of prostitution as prostitution itself, as well as the background pressures underlying that career 'choice.'

-- Her Ascendant is Scorpio, But Sun sign is Leo  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.163.10.169 (talk) 20:58, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Birth evidence
Since Prodego is claiming ethnicity is controversial, I will add the information here as I collect it until there is enough form to add to article. birth certificate s at http://www.allefriezen.nl/en/component/genealogie/?task=crop&tenant=hcl&format=pdf&print=1&filepath=photo_genealogie%2Ftopview%2Fhcl%2F00%2FHCL_G_039%2FLWN_G_1876%2FLWN_G_1876_142.tjp. It is certificate number 560 in the Leeuwarden birth registry for 1876. This proves she was born in the province, but not that here ancestors were Frisian. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:25, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Official documents execution
First it is said, documents are sealed for 100 years, than later a peice (strangely placed under "Museum", which I moved to trial and execution) states a biopgrapher managed France to open the documents. This is contradictory info: what is true? Joost 99 (talk) 21:48, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

The fact that documents are ordered sealed for 100 years doesn't mean that someone can not unseal them sooner than that. IA grave can be opened, and sealed documents can be unsealed at any time. I believe the entry explains that a researcher persuaded the entity holding the documents to open them "32 years early." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.22.47.232 (talk) 06:21, 12 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Here's a link that might shed some light on this discussion. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 16:55, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Pure Dutch?
Every source I looked at didn't say anything about her mother being javanese, one source said that becasue of her complexsion people thought she was Javanese, but it looks like she was actually just Dutch.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk


 * I agree, nowhere that I searched did I come up with anything of her being Javanese or Eurasian or anything other then Dutch. Most reliable sources talk about how she posed as a princess of Java but none say that she actualy was, so why is she listed under the Eurasian catagory?   BeNNoulA 29 June 2006


 * There seems to be an odd discrepancy, also, between the sultry Mata Hari of repute and old photographs and the account of her preserved severed head being red-haired. It seems easier to believe that the anatomical museum switched heads than that she engaged in a regular and complex effort to conceal her true appearance(?).

She belonged to the ethnic group of the Frisians, does that answer your question? 86.89.146.118 (talk) 07:12, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

If you go to the reference section on the bottom of the Mata Hari page, you will find a link to her family tree. Her mother's family is all Fries, going back to about 1600. Her father's family is almost as old, coming to Leeuwarden from Germany. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Linda Praamsma (talk • contribs) 23:05, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Pop culture proposed cleanup
The Pop Culture section of this article is getting way out of hand. I'd like to propose a serious pruning of the lists in this section. Of course, which items should stay and which should go is likely to be debatable, so I'm going to list what I think should stay and go. Others, please chime in if you agree or disagree. I'm going to copy the lists below and strikeout or otherwise indicate (in italics) what I think should go. For the sake of clarity, please don't edit my versions below; list what you agree or disagree with under that. If I get no response by, say, the end of the week, I will assume there's no disagreement with my proposal, and go ahead and do the pruning. keɪɑtɪk flʌfi (talk) 14:20, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Movies and television
In the table: anything that is "based on" or "a parody of" should go.

Books and plays

 * Lene Lovich co-wrote and performed Mata Hari, a play/musical at the Lyric Hammersmith, London, UK, Oct-Nov 1982.
 * In the Indiana Jones series of novels, Young Indiana Jones: The Mata Hari Affair - by James Luceno, Indy loses his virginity to Mata Hari when he was a teenager and a Corporal in the Belgian Army.
 * Author Kurt Vonnegut's character Howard W. Campbell, Jr. dedicates his "memoirs" to Mata Hari in the novel, Mother Night.
 * The pianist Mischa Jones series of novels
 * In the anime R.O.D: Read or Die Read or Die OVA, 'Miss Deep' is revealed to be a clone of Mata Hari.
 * Canadian poet John Oughton published an account of Mata Hari's life from her point of view titled Mata Hari's Lost Words (Ragweed Press, 1988). Excerpts were performed as a one-act play at Acadia University in Wolfville, Nova Scotia.
 * In the tenth book in the Series of Unfortunate Events by Lemony Snicket, Sunny Baudelaire says "'Matahari'...which means something like, 'If I stay here, I can spy on them and find out'".
 * The Red Dancer (A Life of Mata Hari) by Richard Skinner 2001
 * Diane Samuels' play, The True Life Fiction of Mata Hari (2001), deals with Mata Hari's interrogation and execution by the French military. It was first performed at the Palace theatre in Watford in March 2002.
 * In Stephen Schwartz's musical, Working, the character of Delores says she feels like Mata Hari.
 * Pat Shipman wrote a biography of Mata Hari, Femme Fatale (2007)
 * Major Thomas Coulson OBE (Officer of the British Empire) wrote a Book titled Mata Hari: Courtesan and Spy (1930) which is mostly based on inaccurate information.
 * Author Sam Waagenaar published the book The Murder of Mata Hari (1964, British edition. American edition, 1965 under the title Mata Hari) which is one if not the first accurate account of the life Mata Hari based on actual documentation, research, interviews with people who had known her as well as personal scrapbooks that Mata Hari had kept given to him by her personal maid Anna Lintjens. [This should probably stay, but needs to be de-POV-ed]
 * Mata Hari appears as a student-Goddess in the novel The Breath of Gods by French writer Bernard Werber.
 * In Alice Sebold’s novel The Lovely Bones, Jack Salmon, the protagonist’s father, finds out his mother-in-law (Grandma Lynn) has an interest in Hal, a much younger man than her who is a friend of the family. She is making muffins at ten in the morning with pantyhose and makeup on while Hal works out in the yard in an undershirt. Noticing this, Jack asks her: ‘‘When will the love muffins be done, Mata Hari?’’
 * Signed, Mata Hari is a novel written by Yannick Murphy, published in 2007 (Little, Brown and Company), and purporting to tell the story of Mata Hari.
 * The New York City belly dancing performance group Sisters of Salome prsented a "fantasty belly dance" performance based on the myth of Mata Hari in 2007 (www.matahariunveiled.com).
 * In the alternate history novel The Bloody Red Baron, where Count Dracula survives to command the Central Powers during World War I, Mata Hari is one of the modern Brides of Dracula.
 * The Brazilian novel Twelve Fingers (O Homem que Matou Getúlio Vargas) by Jô Soares has the protagonist meeting and romancing Mata Hari aboard the Orient Express.

Music
Anything that's just "the lyrics mention the words 'Mata Hari'" should generally go


 * Mr. Smolin's song, Mata Hari on his second album, "The Crumbling Empire of White People."
 * Nigel Clarke composed Three Symphonic Scenes for Concert Band entitled Mata Hari. Scene 1 is entitled 'Dancer in the Shadows', Scene 2 'Deceit and Seduction' and Scene 3 'Evasion and Capture'.  The multi-award winning Northamptonshire Youth Concert Band, conducted by Peter Smalley, performed the British Premier of this piece in 2003.
 * One of Ofra Haza's songs is entitled Mata Hari and based on her. One of the song's lyrics is: "Like a butterfly, she crossed all the lines...Like a butterfly she dreamt, danced and died".
 * Mata Hari is mentioned in "Like It or Not", a song from Madonna's Confessions On A Dance Floor album. ("Cleopatra had her way, Mata Hari too. Whether they were good or bad, is strictly up to you. [...] You can't have the femme without the fatale.  Please don't take offense.").
 * She is mentioned in the song "Shake Your Bon-Bon", a song by Latin singer Ricky Martin with the line "You're a Mata Hari...I want to know your story".
 * Another mention in music comes in the Mary Prankster song "Mata Hari", discussing the reaction of society to openly sexual women.
 * The song "As You Turn To Go" by The 6ths contains the lines "I know I'm not supposed to say I'm sorry, I know you've had more loves than Mata Hari."
 * Michael McDermott's song " So Close " includes the lyric's " you got the heart of Mata Hari, dancing crosstown for some prince, you never said you were sorry and now it makes no difference"
 * The Canadian ska band, The Kingpins, paid tribute to the spy in a song titled "Mata Hari" on their first full length album Watch Your Back.
 * Mata Hari is mentioned in the song "Genius" by the late Warren Zevon, on his 2000 album My Ride's Here, "Mata Hari had a house in France, where she worked on all her secret plans; Men were falling for her sight unseen, she was a genius".
 * The song "BYOS" by Regina Spektor mentions Mata Hari ("I met Mata Hari, She was in no hurry, The firing squad had their guns in the air.").
 * The song "From One Jesus to Another" by The Mission mentions Mata Hari with the line "And anyway, if it came to a choice, I'd take Mata Hari for my bride."
 * The musical Little Mary Sunshine has a number entitled "Mata Hari".
 * A musical entitled "Mata Hari" was originally intended to run on Broadway, but it flopped and disappeared after its out-of-town try-out. The musical was revived in 1995 by the York Theatre Company and was recorded. No further plans for Broadway productions of the show have eventuated.
 * Loved by a very small group of admirers, Norway represented in 1976 by Anna-Karina Ström, the song "Mata Hari" came in 17th during the Eurovision Song Contest in The Hague. It contains the lyrics "You walked away laughing and left them alone with their shame".
 * One of The Atomic Fireballs songs is entitled Mata Hari.
 * The song "Check The Ring, Yo" by MC Chris contains the lyrics "Matahari just got sorry, gotta roll like Katamari!"
 * In the Bone Machine press kit, Rip Tense in 1992, Tom Waits mentions that he cut out a verse about Mata Hari from the song "Dirt In The Ground" because the song was running long. He stated that "One of (the verses) was:  Mata Hari was a traitor, they sentenced her to death/The priest was at her side and asked her if she would confess/She said, 'Step aside, Father, it's the firing squad again/And you're blocking my view of these fine lookin' men.'/And we're all gonna be dirt in the ground... That's what people say that were present, that just before the firing squad opened up she opened up her blouse a little bit, and then she winked, and then they took her down."

Painting
In 1916 the renowned Dutch artist Isaac Israëls painted Mata Hari. His work of art is exhibited in the famous Kröller-Müller Museum at Otterlo, the Netherlands.

Games

 * There was a video game Mata Hari by Loriciels, for Amstrad CPC (1988) and Atari ST (1989).
 * Mata Hari appears as a spy in the first two games of the Shadow Hearts video game series, under her true name, though Anglicised to Margarete Gertrude Zelle. In the first game, she also joins the party early on.
 * In the videogame Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater the character EVA is called a "regular mata hari" by the main character, Snake.
 * dtp entertainment will publish Mata Hari worldwide under the ANACONDA label, with a Q3 2008 release date set for Germany, Switzerland and Austria.
 * Mata Hari appears as a Great Spy unit in the Civilization IV expansion Beyond the Sword.
 * An enigmatic exotic dancer goes by the stage name of Mata Hari in the PC adventure game, Culpa Innata (2007).
 * There was a 1977 Bally Pinball Machine based on Mata Hari.

keɪɑtɪk flʌfi (talk) 14:20, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Moved the strike through to the whole games section. --OrbitOne (talk) 06:50, 10 April 2009 (UTC)


 * That works. Now that just leaves us with, well...still too much pop culture for my tastes! But I don't know how to prune it down any father without just throwing up my hands and removing everything... keɪɑtɪk flʌfi (talk) 11:57, 10 April 2009 (UTC)


 * How about we keep items that are either non-fictional, highly reviewed because of that specific role (Mata Hari) or created by someone who is in a cultural cannon? --OrbitOne (talk) 14:00, 10 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd like to point out that there's a 2009 point-and-click adventure videogame called Mata Hari - Betrayal is only a kiss away (ref: http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/mata-hari-betrayal-is-only-a-kiss-away) (http://store.steampowered.com/app/18480/?snr=1_5_9__300) --93.33.247.142 (talk) 16:03, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Questions
I'm a firm believer that most of what is on television is pure nonsense these days, but had a couple questions about something random I heard on television. Mata Hari was mentioned in a History Channel program (I think it was "Great Spy Stories: Hitler's Spies"). It said that Mata Hari traveled to Paris in 1919, met George Ladu (head of the French Secret Service) and then was captured and interrogated before traveling to Spain, etc. The article currently states that it is "unclear" if she was working for the French; is that because other sources say that the meeting in Paris didn't happen?

Also, the program also mentioned that the transmission of the message with the code already broken was a undeniably on purpose, and that this was due to her affair with the military attache himself - von Calle, who sent the messages to be intercepted to set her up. This information is also found (in more detail than it gave on television) on the BBC website.

So anyway, I was curious if any of that needed to be added or clarified, or is it deliberately not stated in the article because it is disputed by other scholars or historians? *Vendetta* (whois talk edits) 08:37, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Considering she was executed in 1917, and conspiracy theories that she wasn't actually don't seem to have any real support (both in terms of sources and in terms of logic), any suggestion suggestion she met someone in 1919 is most likely not suitable for inclusion in the article. Nil Einne (talk) 16:04, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Dark skin?
Should we mention she had relatively dark skin for someone from Western or Northern European areas? It seems to me this is relevant because it's commonly cited as aiding her fictional potrayal as a Javanese exotic dancer (despite being Frisian) and may have also affected her life in Indonesia where she was sometimes perceived as being 'part native' by the colonial/European population and look down upon because of it. I've also seen suggestions that the general 'exotic'/'foreign' character resulting from both her skin colour and her carrier may have made the French and others involved in her demise even less sympathetic although I can't find a good source and realisticly being believed to be a spy in those days (war + time period) was never going to have a happy ending. Nil Einne (talk) 16:31, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Frisians
She belonged to the etnic group of the Frisians. Is that included in the article yet, for I think there should at least be a very small section on it. Thanks in advanche, -The Bold Guy- (talk) 14:22, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Someone should add that. The Frisian wikipedia says she is "one of the most renowned Frisian" http://fy.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mata_Hari --62.234.176.6 (talk) 22:02, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Married name
Was Mata Hari formally known as Margaretha Geertruida Zelle MacLeod during her marriage, or did she drop her maiden name altogether? Also, did she keep her husband's last name after they got divorced? Esszet (talk) 00:43, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Guilt and Innocence?
Surely it is of importance (assuming human life has value) to: 1. Discuss whether the French trial was a sham (as implied in the article - see the last sentence in the Trial and Execution section). A single sentence claiming that unsealed documents "...revealed that Mata Hari was innocent..." hardly suffices!!! 2. Either mention the fact she was a spy for the Central Powers (Germans) or that she was not (or no authoratative evidence exists..) *** in the INTRODUCTION ** ! Just my two bits, but I think its important enough, especially since the myth is that she WAS a spy.71.31.151.178 (talk) 17:20, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

I recall from a TV interview from the 1970s with the artist/designer Erte that Mata Hari was not a real spy, but only played the part (to the very end). I can only speculate on the motive for such behavior. This, of course, would mean trying to find his autobiographies from 1975 (Things I remember: an autobiography) and 1989 (Erte: My Life / My Art - An Autobiography), unless someone else can access them first.maclilus (talk) 05:16, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

Reversion of three edits on 12th Feb 2017
1. "Up with which I will not put" edit.

"Hanging preposition" is a genuine fault in Latin Grammar - in English most efforts to avoid are generally felt to result in affected, awkward prose.

2. "Shortened sentence"/"repeated information".

Point of the sentence is that the lady's stage Malay stage name means "dawn" and she was executed at dawn. Not even sure that this is strictly true. "Mata Hari" (literally "eye of the day") is often glosssed as "sun", or "dawn". Perhaps the sentence needs recasting - perhaps the "coincidence" isn't that notable anyway - but editing a sentence without have any idea what it is trying to say, as seems to be the case here, is always very fraught.

3. "had had"

The pluperfect tense, especially if it requires two "hads" is really best avoided when the ordinary perfect will do perfectly well, as here. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 01:47, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

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Addition of OR-paragraph
User ‎Mediasantjordi has repeatedly added a paragraph to the article, which in my opinion is unsourced conjecture ("Mata Hari might have said") based on what a writer of fiction, Paolo Coelho, thinks may have happened. There were no edit summaries or any rationale on the talk page as to why it was important to add this information. The additions were, and.

In my opinion this constitutes WP:OR and as such is not admissable in Wikipedia (or any other encyclopedia for that matter). The same user continues to add Coelho's work of fiction to the bibliography-section of the article. I believe the bibliography-section is intended for non-fiction research material only. Coelho's book on Mata Hari is already mentioned in the article, in the section Legend and popular culture. I have therefore again reverted these edits, and would like to urge user Mediasantjordi to stop adding this information. Mark in wiki (talk) 12:55, 21 June 2017 (UTC)


 * --Mediasantjordi (talk) 08:59, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your message.
 * We agree that you remove the sentence that Mata Hari might have said but, in any case, The Spy by Paulo Coelho, his latest novel, is based on actual facts and it is a good reference on her life. That is why we believe it should be mentioned in the bibliography section.
 * We hope to count on your understanding.
 * Best regards,
 * --Mediasantjordi (talk) 08:59, 20 July 2017 (UTC)


 * I believe even though Coelho's work might be based on facts, it is still a work of fiction and should therefore not be mentioned in the bibliography-section of what readers assume is a list of factual background information on the topic. Furthermore, I am concerned about a possible conflict of interest you may have with Coelho's work, seeing that Sant Jordi Asociados is the literary agent for Paolo Coelho's work. Editing pages you may have a conflict of interest with, is strongly discouraged under Wikipedia's guidelines. Also, Wikipedia is not a means of promotion. Mark in wiki (talk) 09:19, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply.

Of course, you are more familiar with the guidelines that we are. However, the book was published one year ago, so we are not engaged in the promotion of a new book. The Spy, a novel about Mata Hari is a biographical work based on Paulo Coelho's research on documents released by intelligence offices as well as on the reading of many books on the subject.

We are convinced many readers could get more acquainted with Mata Hari’s life reading this book, which is written in a contemporary way. Its readers have highlighted the human presentation of her moving away from the stereotypes. I hope you are seeing this from the point of view of a reader who is interested in knowing more about Mata Hari’s life, not framing Paulo Coelho because he is a bestseller with 200,000,000 copies sold worldwide.--Mediasantjordi (talk) 14:10, 24 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but novels and other works of fiction are very simply NOT, and never can be acceptable sources for an encyclopedia (ANY encyclopedia, not just this one) unless, of course, the subject of the entry concerned is the work of fiction itself (or perhaps its author?). One would have thought that this was common sense, and that no one would have ever implied otherwise. Although perhaps the novel might merit a bibliographic citation under "Fuirther Reading"? --Soundofmusicals (talk) 04:56, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for suggesting that option. You are right. We will place the information under "Further Reading". --Mediasantjordi (talk) 11:20, 25 July 2017 (UTC)


 * An encyclopedia "Further reading" section goes under the "Bibliography", and, as I suggested, in the form of a bibliographic citation, not as a blurb. This is an encyclopedia, not a place for plugging books (or anything else). --Soundofmusicals (talk) 14:01, 25 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Yeah, under "Popular culture" is another place, but don't be too shocked if someone else doesn't like that - especially if you have a c.o.i. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 14:20, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

"Legand and Popular Culture" edits
I removed a large part of the final section that had no citations regarding Mata Hari's appearances in world culture. SpiritedMichelle (talk) 01:47, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Mother's ancestry
Despite rumours, Zelle had no Asian or Middle Eastern ancestry and both her parents were Dutch, with her mother additionally being of Frisian descent.
 * There seems to be disagreement about this statement.
 *   The German WP article says her mother (not the father, Zelle) "had Javanese roots" (Ihre Mutter hatte javanische Wurzeln). Java, today part of Indonesia, was at the time part of the colony known in English as the Dutch East Indies, so it's at least plausible that she may have had "Javanese" forebears. (People of Indonesian descent still live in the Netherlands.)
 *   The Dutch WP article says "her maiden name was Marguerite Zelle, daughter of a wealthy Javanese planter. She was born on Java to a native [woman]... (Haar meisjesnaam was Marguerite Zelle, dochter van een vermogende Javaanse planter. Zij werd op Java geboren uit een in boorlinge....).
 * Neither article directly footnotes these statements, but the German article lists two dozen sources in three languages and the Dutch article includes 46 citations (all in Dutch). Thus, the flat statement that Mata Hari had no Asian ancestry is directly contradicted by WP articles from the two countries most directly concerned with her story.
 * In addition, the statement that her mother was "of Frisian descent" is ambiguous, as the Frisian Islands are found in three countries, the Netherlands, Germany and Denmark.
 * Finally, the statement in question is attributed to an undocumented statement in "Sherlock Holmes and the Terrible Secret", a Holmes pastiche by one Fred Thursfield, author of a number of such books – which seem to be of questionable quality if one reads the reviews.
 * I suggest that the statement be deleted. Sca (talk) 14:46, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
 * The line you're quoting from the Dutch Wikipedia is a quote used to describe how stories about Mata Hari were highly romanticised and fantasised after her death. It is made up by the newspaper it is quoted from, which is obvious from the Dutch text. It is also obviously not mentioned in the text about Mata Hari herself. It is correct that the German Wikipedia writes that her mother had Javanese roots, but there is no source at all for that statement. I would therefore not recommend deleting the statement that Zelle had no Asian or Middle Eastern ancestry and both her parents were Dutch. In my opinion there is no disagreement at all. And "Frisian" doesn't refer to the Frisian Islands at all. Mark in wiki (talk) 20:58, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Frisian does refer, indirectly, to the islands, as that is where the Frisians, an ethnic subgroup, originated. Per our Frisia article: "Frisia is the traditional homeland of the Frisians, a Germanic people that speaks Frisian languages."
 * According to a historical feature on BBC, the name Mata Hari "is said to come from the Indonesian for 'eye of the day' - the sun." This would seem to lend credence to the contention that she had or may have had some Asian, i.e. Indonesian/Javanese ancestry.
 * An amateurish, entertainment-oriented book like Thursfield's Sherlock Holmes and the Terrible Secret is certainly not an RS by any standard of historiography. However, I see you've added a scholarly source, Performing Otherness: Java and Bali on International Stages, 1905-1952 by Matthew I. Cohen, an anthropology Ph.D. at the University of London, which cites three sources. This seems a much better source. Accordingly:
 * I suggest a) that the Thursfield citation be deleted, b) that the statement in question be shorn of its reference to "Frisian descent," since that's irrelevant to the question of Mata Hari's ethnic heritage, and c) that the statement be qualified as follows:
 * Despite traditional assertions that Mata Hari was partly of Javanese, i.e. Indonesian, descent, scholars conclude she had no Asian or Middle Eastern ancestry and both her parents were Dutch.
 * Since the article is listed in today's Main Page OTD, I'm going to go ahead and make that change. – Sca (talk) 15:04, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I repeat that the word Friesian in this context has nothing to do with the Wadden Islands. Nothing. Friesian refers to the province of Friesland, the capital of which was Mata Hari's birth place. That is the reason she is called Friesian. The islands are only a very small part of what is called Frisia (and furthermore, the islands extend to other parts of the world as well). Oh, and the name Mata Hari is of Indonesian origin, probably because Mata Hari lived in Indonesia for some time. Mark in wiki (talk) 20:48, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
 * And I repeat that a reference to Frisian/Friesian/Friesland ancestry is irrelevant to the issue of whether she had some Asian ancestry. (Most English-speaking readers will not know about the complexities of Frisia and IMO such a reference will only confuse them.) Sca (talk) 23:14, 15 October 2017 (UTC)


 * VERY SIMPLY. Wikipedia is not incestuous - i.e. other Wikipedia articles are NOT (and CAN NOT) be cited as "reliable sources" (just think about it for a moment - if they were it would invalidate our entire reference system!). If the statements that Mata Hari was Balinese, or Javanese, or Indian (she claimed to be all three at different junctures) were only cited (specifically, on this point) in the Dutch and German editions then we might be able to copy their citation. On the face of it it appears that the editors of the Dutch and German articles have just been less careful than us (it does happen now and then). The "Frisian" bit probably IS irrelevant (seems to have gone anyway, so I don't know why we're on about it!) - the point is that she was Dutch, not (part or full) Asian. Of course many performing artists use stage names and more or less manufactured backgrounds - nothing the least strange or reprehensible about all this. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 06:19, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Actually, I'm tempted to delete my last post - as the article seems to have settled down sensibly - I also may be being unfair to the Dutch/German editions, that may NOT make actual claims about our heroine's supposed Asian ancestry anyway. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 06:32, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

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 * The Execution of Mata Hari.jpg

Any news?
On 18 Dec 2016 you added Mata Hari's sealed trial and related other documents were scheduled to be declassified by the French Army in 2017, one hundred years after her execution.[37]

Still guilty? MBG02 (talk) 03:08, 28 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Why don't you tell me? You're the one who seems to have followed up this so yer ahead of me. --Loginnigol 09:50, 28 September 2018 (UTC)


 * I only "just" read the article. In both senses; I only just read it (for the first time) before pinging you; and I just only read this article – no research, never read about her before, hardly at all. In fact I’ve always had trouble knowing who she was a spy for. The question of her ethnicity is not resolved (in the article): but she looks a fair bit non-Dutch. There must be research that goes back more than one generation?


 * PS: I assumed since you’re a palindrome, that you are good with words; and maybe French-origin stuff? MBG02 (talk) 22:06, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

Shadow Hearts
I don't know if anyone feels this deserves especial notation, but there is a character in the original Shadow Hearts by the name of Margarete G. Zelle. The character is more of a fictional creation based on Mata Hari than an actual representation of the historical figure. In this game, Margarete is an American spy with no background on exotic dancing. She does use sex appeal to her advantage, though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.5.43.112 (talk • contribs) 18:57, 25 March 2006

Wrong, girl doesn't matter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Luanxyd (talk • contribs) 21:24, 20 October 2019 (UTC)