Talk:Mathcore

noisecore is not mathcore
noisecore is not mathcore, they are different. The author needs to know that, as math core is about technicality, and noisecore is about, well, noise and chaos, with technicality taking a back seat.

question
well than what is a good example of noisecore? ive never heard of it?

-ethan A good example is The Locust

a better example is early anal cunt

Early anal cunt (Everyone Should Be Killed) was almost just "noise". TEE-HEE.


 * I've suggested that noisecore can be synonymous with mathcore in the lead-in to this article. It's also a term for a type of hardcore techno. The Locust are sometimes considered mathcore (this will included in the article soon). A.C. are a grindcore band, and there's a close relationship between grind and mathcore, which I'm also going to prove, with sources, in short order. Aryder779 (talk) 20:08, 6 October 2008 (UTC)


 * In the February 2009 Terrorizer, Guilio from Cripple Bastards says: "TNT Records from Germany was the most extreme label around in the late '80s. [Matthias Weigand] definitely put noisecore on the map and launched 7 Minutes Of Nausea and Anal Cunt, who were the most anti-musical and nihilistic face of extreme music at that time, pushing things way over the already inhuman limit that Napalm Death, Sore Throat and Carcass had set." (p. 44) In the same issue, Botch is described as a "noisecore pioneer." (p. 63) Botch is clearly pretty different from what Guilio is describing. I'm not sure what connection, if any, there is between the first noisecore groups, to which Guilio alludes, and the second batch, who're considered mathcore. Aryder779 (talk) 23:10, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * There is no real connection between the two uses of the term. Guilio is clearly referring to the likes of Anal Cunt, 7 Minutes of Nausea and Sore Throat (see Sore Throat MusicMight page for ref). In Terrorizer 75 (Feb 2000), they did an issue long round up of the decade. On pp. 22-23 Kevin Stewart-Panko wrote a two page article entitled "The Decade in Noisecore" and is clearly talking about the other usage; he opens with "[...]I've thrown down much ink regarding the likes of Today is the Day, The Dillinger Escape Plan, Converge, Drowningman, Coalesce, Turmoil, Candiria and Botch, amongst others." Other bands name-checked in the article include Neurosis, Deadguy and Cave In. If I can quote from that article: "The catch all term you use to describe this dynamic, violent, discordant, technical, brutal, off-kilter, no rules mixture of metal, hardcore, prog, math rock, grind and jazz, is influenced by whatever angle you approach the genre from. Metalists call it hardcore, dictatorial hardcore types think it's metal, while the more worldly and open-minded of us have to struggle with the underdescriptive (metalcore, noisecore) or the surreal (murdercore). It seems that as the genre shifted into higher gear towards the end of the 90s and more was written about the bands, that "noisecore" became the agreed upon phrase; probably because of us hacks' inability to come up with anything to replace the sheer impracticality of "the dynamic, violent, discordant..." sucking up our word counts." If you'd like any further quotes from the article, let me know, as it's one of the few I've seen specifically talking about the genre. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 17:19, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes,noisecore and mathcore are different.But,some mathcore bands were infact labeled as "noisecore"in the 90s(Basically during its formation stage).Hope it helps. Straightxandxalert (talk) 08:44, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

Noisecore has nothing to do with mathcore. it's a totally ridiculous thing. Noisecore is not about technicality or odd times, it's mostly improvised and is based entirely on sloppily played blastbeats, screaming, and extremely short songs. From Discogs:

"Noisecore is a derivation of Grindcore/Hardcore Punk. Has been use as a term since mid/late 80’s and stabilized itself as a own genre.

The songs are usually chaotic short blasts of noise, accompanied by screamed, growled, or shouted vocals. While there is some instrumental variation (some groups use drum machines, others use completely non-musical noise sources), Noisecore acts tend to use a guitar and/or bass guitar.

Earlier releases tagged as "Noisecore" tend to be a raw, chaotic, and lo-fi form of Hardcore; artists in this style include Tranquilizer (2), Kuolema, and Brigada Do Ódio. Napalm Death's "You Suffer" is generally considered the blueprint for most later Noisecore, being approximately one second long. Tracks can go to even couple dozen of seconds, but hardly ever reaches length of 1 minute or so. Typical Noisecore releases (whether singles or LPs) can contain forty or more songs, with some releases claiming to contain thousands of tracks.

Lyrical content varies from highly political (Seven Minutes Of Nausea, Fear Of God) to the gross/offensive (later Anal Cunt, Gore Beyond Necropsy) to the absurd/surreal (Sore Throat, Minch); some acts (early Anal Cunt, Genital Masticator, The Gerogerigege) use wordless vocal sounds."

Gerogerigegege is the ultimate example. It's totally ridiculous that the term redirects to mathcore. 2601:545:4601:CA30:BD0B:F9D7:1F02:E6F1 (talk) 19:44, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Are Meshuggah Mathcore?
They're extremely brutal and heavy with a guitarist who sounds like Allan Holdsworth, heaps of time changes, weird key changes and incredible techniqueAndrew F. 23:38, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * I've wondered about Meshuggah too. They fit the description, but the style is very different from other artists  in this genre.

No Meshuggah are not Mathcore. Meshuggah are Math-Metal not Mathcore. The Two genres are related, but Mathcore has a hardcore element which math-metal does not. Mathcore is essentially Math-Metalcore. In a similar way Sikth also have Math elements and are Math_metal, but do not contain enough of a hardcore sound to be considered Mathcore - Lester Drake 20:45 3 Jan 2005

Math metal doesn't actually exist. Meshuggah is the only ones that type of description clearly. However there are a lot of polyrythms in technical death metal.

But, then again, Meshuggah aren't death metal either. The description "technical post-thrash" fits well right up until Nothing, but after that, I'd say "math metal" is the most accurate description. But math metal redirects to mathcore, a genre they don't belong to. What do we do?


 * Math metal is what most people call Converge & DEP so that's why that is. Can't we just call Meshuggah Metal or at the most Progressive post-thrash? There is really no point trying to categorize them to rigidly though. XdiabolicalX 17:31, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

In truth Meshuggah are one of those bands that simply won't fit into any one genre conveniently. Their music can be described as a mix of thrash/post-thrash metal, death metal, industrial metal, progressive metal. But it doesn't really contain any noticable hardcore elements, so I don't think they deserve to be here. Prophaniti (talk) 19:00, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Mathcore & Mathmetal
I removed the metal bands Between The Buried And Me and Glass Casket because they're not really "hardcore". Some of the other bands I left on there could be mainly metal, but I wouldn't know because I've never heard of them and I have a dial-up modem so song sampling would take a long time. As well, this article doesn't get much attention (nor does the hardcore article as well) so I don't think many mathcore Wikipedians will get pissed off. I'm going to make a "math metal" page for them and others. -theelderraven


 * BTBAM seems to be hardcore influenced to me. --141.209.196.70 05:54, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Bands
I also removed some bands (Burnt by the Sun, Isis etc.) because I feel they don't accurately reflect the "mathcore" tag. I also added a few which fit nicely into this genre, mainly bands from the Relapse label - arguably a definitive catalogue of "math" style bands. El Mark

Dillinger Escape Plan & Converge
why was this moved from the metalcore page? Do Dillinger Escape Plan and Converge "promote" mathcore?

I don't know the answer to your first question but to the latter. But to the answer of your latter question, Dillinger and Converge, are probably the Two biggest, and most influencial bands in this genre, so yes they deffinatly do promote mathcore. P.S. They are still Metalcore bands, but that is true of every mathcore band as Mathcore is simply a subgenre of Metalcore. - Lester Drake 20:50 03 Jan 2006

Botch
Botch was listed twice. I took that out.

I'd say Meshuggah is usually refered to as Math Metal, so you might want to add them to this article.

Why called Mathcore?
The article doesn't really explain why this music was given the label "mathcore". Does anyone know?

Time signatures
Ok, iv`e basically just created an account with Wikipedia purely to add to this fine page on my favourite type of music.

Ok, basically, without a shadow of a doubt, Meshuggah are definately a Mathcore band. As a drummer i have a great understanding of time signatures, and anything that incorporates about 4-5 different time signatures within one riff alone, substantiates to a calculation. Basically when writing a beat like that, you cant just sit down and play it, you have to play around until you nail it. The thing to bear in mind is guys like Tomas Haake and Chris Pennie (Dillinger) are playing two different time signatures simultaneously. Its not mathematically correct.

The way I define a mathcore band is the first time you listen to it, you shouldnt be able to figure it out, it should take you a few plays to "calculate" and understand the beats/timesignatures etc.

And then all is well of course

Astrobastard


 * I'd have to disagree with alot of that, to me your not defining mathcore, your defining what makes something Math. As in what makes something Math-Metal is that it fits into the Metal Genre but also has what you described above, what makes something mathcore is that it fits into metalcore, bu8t also has what you describe above, what makes sopmething math-rock (if such a genre exists) is that it fits into rock and has what you described above. - Lester Drake 20:57 03 Jan 2006


 * Meshuggah isn't "core" though. That's kind of a problem with having "mathcore" and "math metal" mean the same thing. Although there are very little "math metal" bands.


 * Firstly, please sign comments... secondly, although math-metal and mathcore are alike, there are subtle differences... Types of screams; harcore screaming verses more metal screaming (there is a difference), Shredding guitar verses say more dissonant tech riffs, distortion on guitar/bass, other instrumentation... Days will chase 01:37, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps the Grindcore influence should be mentioned?
Alot of Mathcore bands have a sound very similar to that of grindcore e.g. Daughter, As The Sun Sets, The End. And most Mathcore bands site a large handfull of Grindcore bands amongst their influences. Mathcore is genrally considered more extreme than noraml metalcore, and use speeds and a lot of techniques which are used less commonly in general Metalcore, but very commonly in Grindcore. I think this similarity/influence should be mentioned. -Lester Drake 21:07 03 Jan 2006
 * Yes, bands like The Number 12 Looks Like You and Ed Gein are heavily influenced by grindcore. They are often mistaken for grindcore bands. -- Metal of  Head  21:50, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I think mathcore is a derivative of grindcore. Dillinger Escape Plan is also associated with grindcore sometimes. There's an interview with Barney Greenway, cited on the grindcore page, in which he says that he thinks DEP is largely inspired by '90s Napalm Death. Aryder779 (talk) 02:36, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Fear Before The March Of Flames
I don't consider them Mathcore, but many people call them Mathcore now. They are certainly influnced by it. Should this be mentioned anywhere?

bands
I clearly don't see why Daughters is a mathcore band, I don't hear any technical arranges, thats in my personal opinion. I also added Misery Signals to the list, they clearly fit the genre, also I suggest to take Between The Buried And Me from there, we can't confuse progressive and technical music with mathcore, Between isn't just a mathcore band, they mix a variety of genres, making them more like progressive metalcore band than mathcore.


 * Talking of bands, are The Fall Of Troy mathcore? They are Math for sure, and they aren't metal, but they are more post-hardcore than hardcore... anyone? Days will chase 01:39, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The Fall of Troy is definitely mathcore. They incorporate math elements and hardcore.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Giantmushingd (talk • contribs) 20:54, 9 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Half of this article is unsourced original research. If you have a source, please add a band, but only if a source can be found.--3family6 (talk) 20:59, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Hardcore/Metalcore
Right I'm not getting into a an argument on something as stupid however:

"When a punk rock band begins to play technical music, they are no longer punk rock, as the whole point of punk was to play simple, aggressive, fun music. "Hardcore" is a subgenre of punk rock."

Is completely wrong. There is many punk bands who have got progressivly more technical as time went on (Misfits for example). Also by this statement you must also think the as the Clash were incorporating Reggae & Dub influences that they are no longer 'punk'? Anyway punk is a lifestyle before a music genre.--XdiabolicalX 13:22, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

What the fuck is mathcore? Did you guys just make this up? Do they have biology-core too? What about geometry-metal? Do you realize how incredibly stupid this sounds?

Seriously. I see absolutely no point to this. You can't just go on and make up your own 'genres' and then make a page about it like it's something that has actually existed outside of your basement. This stuff is total pollution - leave the bands alone and get a life.


 * I'm tempted to just delete your trash but I won't. However I will tell you 'Mathcore' gets 193,000 hits on Google which obviously tells you it's not just in someones basement. XdiabolicalX 13:09, 9 September 2006 (UTC)


 * It's funny, one guy at my school once made a comment just like that about math metal when Meshuggah was mentioned. Stupid people.

I made the link to Training for Utopia work by changing the capitalization. They are metalcore and industrial (both of which are true). On Plastic Soul Impalement they are very mathcore, but the sound was distinct to this album (maybe a project?) and did not follow the artists in the band to later projects (such as Demon Hunter). Jlricherson 05:05, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


 * What's really funny is that I'm currently typing a comment just like that myself. Seriously, just because a word has a lot of hits on Google doesn't make it any less manufactured. Anyone remembers "miserable failure"? So, would someone please point out the connection between mathematics and bands like Meshuggah or Dillinger Escape Plan, for the uninitiated like me? That "fiddling aroud" that's mentioned earlier in this discussion page doesn't sound very mathematical to me. Lyrics ain't mathematical either. Where does the math in mathcore come from? And I am studying engineering, you don't have to talk in layman's terms to me. 85.179.165.85 (talk) 19:42, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * D'oh, this was a reply to the paragraph after "Xdiabolicalx", which was clearly marked as a reply by the colon. Thank you for editing, whoever, it doesn't make sense on its own. Whoopee. 85.177.179.166 (talk) 07:57, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand where this confusion comes from. The "math" term in rock and metal comes from the complex time signatures and riffing. Time signature and complex rhythms in music could reasonably be called "mathematic" because of the calculated precision involved Electrovore, music person — Preceding unsigned comment added by Electrovore (talk • contribs) 02:14, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Redirection from Math-Core
It comes up with no results when you search math-core... I think someone should do something about that... as that is how it should be written; post-rock, math-metal, post-hardcore... etc. Days will chase 01:52, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not correct for genres with the core suffix, e.g. Metalcore, Grindcore, Hardcore punk, Noisecore ect. --Diabolical 02:48, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Roots of Mathcore
It is preposterous to say that any bands created around 2003-present have been the roots of mathcore. I am going to remove August Burns Red, Hubble Constant, and the Human Abstract from that list. Such bands are followers, not roots of the musical style. Fmalcangi 21:05, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Alot of work needed
The article is completely unsourced OR as it stands, it needs some serious work done to remain as is. --Neon white 23:18, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I found that math rock is viable genre (All Music Guide) so to answer the anon who posted before me I guess mathcore is a mix of that and heavy metal sensibility. --CircafuciX 06:53, 7 November 2007 (UTC)


 * It's written as "complex time signatures" but I've never heard of that term before. I've heard of compound time signatures, and I understand that they are non-conventional, but "complex"? Counting to a number less then 20 or so isn't really that complex :)  --Syd Heresy (talk) 05:56, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Needs to be removed
"The term mathcore comes from the use of many different and irregular time signatures within one piece of music"

This should be removed, or re-written and put in a better place. Rawwwrr! (talk) 02:20, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Gah?
Can someone point me in the direction of someone who actually has used the term "mathcore?" I'm starting to see lots of made up genres so people can put their favorite bands into their own category. I always thought, for the most part, things with odd time signatures and such would mostly fall under progressive metal, like Dream Theater, etc. I really don't think there needs to be an article trying to come up with a new genre. A google search on mathcore gives no results about anything related to music except this article. A sign perhaps? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tlonmaster (talk • contribs) 03:51, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually when i was describing a new band several years ago called "lamb of god" my friend said "oh, that Math-metal band?" That was when i was a sophomor in highschool, about '04, so people aren't just making up genres, mathmetal has been around for a while. and mathcore and mathmetal are really the same thing. it's metal, and it's math. it doesn't matter if it's core, because it originated in METALcore... so someone should put Mathcore (also known as Mathmetal.)Heart2rokk (talk) 23:09, 24 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry I have to disagree. I'm listening to Protest the Hero right now and I can see why this would be labeled Mathcore.  It is certainly not Mathmetal it is far too hardcore influenced.  I think the problem is that a lot of people see the removal of the metal from the metalcore name and think that -cores are no longer considered metal.  This is definitely not the case with this genre.  No one said it had to make sense, language is mostly non-sensical anyway.  So the bands in this genre will display metal sounds but that also have hardcore roots.  Bands that do not have hardcore roots (like Meshuggah, though I am certain there are better examples) do not belong here. marnues (talk) 21:05, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Needs cleanup
The current version is poorly written with no citations.--SilverOrion (talk) 04:58, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Nobody on wikipedia understands music theory ("polyrhythmic")
Just look at the opening sentence of this article:

"Mathcore (also known as technical metalcore, technical hardcore and progressive metalcore) is a polyrhythmic and dissonant style of metalcore, recognized for a high level of technical musicianship."

The defining characteristic of mathcore is not that the bands engage in polyrhythms but that time signatures are often asymmetric or non-regular. Somebody just dumped the term "polyrhythmic" as a synonym for "rhythmically complex," instead of thinking what it actually means. Mathcore (as it's defined on this page at least) is much more commonly defined by the strange amount of monorhythms present in the music. For example, take the song "Saint Matthew Returns to the Womb" by Botch. The introduction has three measures of 3/4 followed by a measure of 3/8. All of the instruments are locked into this pattern and attack and release at the same time. The accents of the drums lock in with the bass and guitars, which is textbook monorhythm. Just because the actual time signature choices add complexity to the rhythmic structure doesn't mean that the song is "polyrhymic." In fact it usually means the opposite. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DFelon204409 (talk • contribs) 08:10, 7 July 2008 (UTC)


 * This is very interesting, and I'm going to try to do some research to figure out what the best way to address this in the article would be. I wish you would share your expertise and suggest how this could be incorporated into the article, rather than being condescending. Aryder779 (talk) 20:10, 6 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm somewhat offended, I have quite a reasonable knowledge of music theory myself, and yes, you're right, but the correct thing to do would've been to edit the article and drop a comment politely explaining why you're right. Merely replacing the word 'polyrhythm' with 'rhythmically complex' will be fine. 143.92.1.33 (talk) 02:52, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Chaoscore
I'm not convinced this is a legitimate alternative name for mathcore; Last.fm is certainly not a reliable source. It sounds like a neologism to me. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 10:43, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I've never heard of it before, and if Last.fm's the only source, then yeah, baweet. Shame, really, I'd imagine a legitimate genre with the name 'chaoscore' would sound really awesome. 2birds1stone (talk) 04:13, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Merge proposal
I suggest that this page have its original research sections removed (some of which I wrote, by the way, so this is self-criticism), and be merged with metalcore where it will make more sense. Aryder779 (talk) 17:40, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think the merger's a good idea after all. But I am going to try to remove the OR and clean this up. Aryder779 (talk) 17:51, 16 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Does not need a merger AT ALL. In fact, it needs an entire makeover. This is all wrong. You know I love you, but I see you've been masturbating your agenda all over this article again. Will be back later with an arsenal of citations. I facepalmed SO hard @ noisecore Seethingnuclearchaos (talk) 22:38, 13 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Perhaps you noticed that the merger suggestion was made almost a year ago, when there was almost nothing on this page. I would like nothing more than for you to bring your arsenal of citations and improve this page. Aryder779 (talk) 22:40, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Wasn't made yesterday, but 5 and a half months is hardly a year. Seethingnuclearchaos (talk) 23:12, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Progressive metal?
There's a persistent tendency for someone to add "progressive metal" to the infobox as an origin. If this is true, please provide some evidence of progressive metal as a prominent influence on mathcore groups. Aryder779 (talk) 17:22, 21 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Someone added this: "The term progressive metalcore varies from mathcore in that it is used more to describe metalcore bands who are strongly influenced by progressive metal and rock bands. In general terms it is more a simple combination of the two genres. Mathcore is generic to bands who are heavily hardcore influenced also moving towards playing technical grindcore, with various experimental influences. Some examples of progressive metalcore bands would be The Human Abstract, Between the Buried and Me, Protest the Hero, SikTh, Shai Hulud, Misery Signals and August Burns Red."
 * While sources are not included, it does seem correct that a group like The Human Abstract does indeed take influence from both metalcore and progressive metal. However, all of these groups were formed recently, with the exception of Shai Hulud (and I don't know if they're a mathcore group). I still don't know of any direct influence of progressive metal on the originators of mathcore. Aryder779 (talk) 22:51, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

See also: Deathcore??
Doesn't seem like a relevant genre to me. I'm removing it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kranial Tork (talk • contribs) 22:15, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Mathcore: Synonymous with Technical Metalcore/Progressive Metalcore??
This notion is stated in the first sentence of the Mathcore page. Although they appear similar, and very possibly related, to say they are one in the same is a stretch. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kranial Tork (talk • contribs) 22:19, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Might make an interesting addition
Jacob Bannon from Converge on mathcore :
 * Is mathcore still esoteric, or is it gaining a larger following?
 * I really don't know what mathcore is. Converge are an aggressive band. We have elements of hardcore, punk, and metal for sure. But I think trying to define our efforts and other bands with a generic sub-genre name is counter productive. We all have something unique to offer and should be celebrated for those qualities rather than having them generalized for easy consumption.

Musical traits
should a new section be added to talk about traits of mathcore? as one note mathcore has little vocal range and mostly hardcore shouts and clean vocal. not death growls like metal core Jonjonjohny (talk) 21:59, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * There was one at one point, but has since been removed because it consisted entirely of unsourced original research. Unfortunately, because it's not a mainstream or popular genre, published articles rarely mention mathcore let alone its styles and traits. All encyclopedic content must be verifiable. If this is something you truly feel compelled to write, I would suggest collecting reliable sources and starting a rough draft here on the talk page. Fezmar9 (talk) 23:39, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

The information in the article is not all that reliable. Beware.
Fear Before the March of Flames, Behold... The Arctopus, Converge are NOT mathcore bands. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mathcore_bands - this link must be either removed or updated. nearly none of the bands listed have the slightest resemblance with mathcore whatsoever. if you want to know, how mathcore should sound, listen to "Daughters", "The Dillinger Escape Plan", "Rolo Tomassi" or "The Locust". I would as well reconsider the link between mathcore, noisecore and grindcore - it does not seem to exist, even though all three of them are descendants of punk, oi! and hardcore.

GoreGrindGeek (talk) 12:30, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Original research?
There seems to be quite a bit of original research and WP:SYNTH on this page, as well as some outdated refs. If someone could look over this article it would be good.--3family6 (talk) 18:31, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Adding more genres to mathcore's stylistic origins
On this page, there are only three genres listed: grindcore, math rock, and metalcore. Although I agree that these genres fit there, I also believe that there are other genres that influenced mathcore. Genres such as noise rock, hardcore punk and screamo. Now, I'm sure most people will agree with me on the inclusion of noise rock, and some might be against hardcore punk since that influenced grindcore and metalcore and including it may seem repetitive, but probably most of you will be against screamo due to little knowledge of it or because they haven't listened to true screamo. Bands like Orchid, Mohinder, Swing Kids, Portraits of Past, and countless others SEEM to have some connection to mathcore. Their sound is chaotic, varies in tempo, but at times it does lack intricate guitar work, so I would understand why it wouldn't be included. That being said, maybe mathcore influenced screamo instead of the other way around. They both came out around the same time. When I listen to The Number Twelve Looks Like You, I feel some influence from Orchid or Swing Kids. I'm not going to add any of these genres by myself, as that might cause more unnecessary arguments. I think that at least noise rock should be added, if not the other two. Protest the Herp (talk) 13:45, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The issue at hand is reliable sources. If you have some that source the above mentioned styles as influences, go head an add them.-- &iquest;3fam  ily6  contribs 20:03, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Since mathcore isn't mainstream, stuff on it is hard to find and almost non-existent, but I'll try to find what I can to make this page better. Protest the Herp (talk) 12:28, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Request to merge List of mathcore bands into mathcore
Similar to the merge request which happened on Deathcore's page. It's a short list of bands so it should be merged in the same style. Jonjonjohny (talk) 15:05, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Mathcore is NOT Math Metal
The first sentence reads "Mathcore, also known as math metal." This is not true. Meshuggah is math metal. DEP is mathcore. The former is related to the metal tradition; the latter is related to the hardcore tradition. Yes, many mathcore bands have metal influences, but not all of them. And a ton of math metal bands have absolutely no -core influences; they're usually tech death or death metal with a heavy use of irregular meter and hypermeter. Meshuggah is the perfect example. I would never use any -core sub-genre to describe Meshuggah. Starvinsky (talk) 18:46, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I supposed the statement of math metal probably requires a reliable source. Any editors wish to contribute? Jonjonjohny (talk) 22:19, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Mathcore is sludge metal with the doom and hardcore flipped around. I thought you knew this. 115.64.123.40 (talk) 05:01, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

List of Metalcore bands
This list is not hurting the article but showing the bands who are in the genre origins of Mathcore.CombatMarshmallow (talk) 00:14, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Mathcore (with origins in the early 1990s) is older than the vast majority of bands included on the list. There is absolutely no benefit to linking it in the see also section when the actual list of mathcore bands exists and is listed there besides. It is strange to hear you argue that it is "not hurting the article" when you yourself make it a habit to remove any amount of information you don't like from articles without prior discussion.-- MA SHAUN IX 00:25, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Sure there is. Its a relative topic and in the see also. Its listed in the info box and definitely Relative. "Remove what I don't like" never. I don't have "feelings" about editing. Just Truth. I remove what shouldn't be there, if and when I have. You know that already. CombatMarshmallow (talk) 00:38, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * There is no such thing as "truth" concerning what should and should not be included in an article. It's all about the editor's opinion on what is relevant, reliable, well placed etc.; all of these have to be evaluated subjectively. Metalcore is related to mathcore as a parent genre, but a list of metalcore bands has no direct relevance to mathcore; if a reader wants to see it, they can go to the metalcore article first and find it there. I don't think there's any point in discussing this, though. You won't change your mind, because from what I've seen, you never do. If I revert your edit, you think of it as a start of a war that you must "win", whatever the context. Please read WP:WIN if you haven't seen it yet.-- MA SHAUN IX 12:05, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Thing thing is there is never any "war" it would be crazy to assume there is one. Also it would be pretty "out" there for you to assume you "know" what other people are thinking. However if you want to make pretend you know what people are thinking thats your misconception not mine. Try and have a good day ok.CombatMarshmallow (talk) 14:03, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not assuming anything, just describing your behaviour, in the context of trying to explain why I feel like there is no point to discussing edits with you.-- MA SHAUN IX 14:55, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * You're describing your assumption. Not interested in what you "think" I am. You really like discussions with me. It seems clear. CombatMarshmallow (talk) 15:06, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * No, I don't. I like discussions in which the other person is interested in what I have to say and reaching a consensus, not in proving that the "truth" is on their side. Either way, there's no point in debating this. I just wanted to end the discussion, and say why. If you want to keep the list in the see also section for no reason at all except that you put it there, fine by me.-- MA SHAUN IX 15:19, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Fine by me. CombatMarshmallow (talk) 15:34, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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Major cleanup
Hi team - I've been able to permanently remove two nasty tags (improper synthesis and non-notable self-references) due to a major cleanup which clarified the origin and history of the genre. Please keep this article clean! Feel free to discuss further edits here before adding improper synthesis and getting this page flagged again. Thanks. -Chrisbkoolio (talk) 23:04, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

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External links modified
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Lead
There are a few things about the infobox and lead that I feel should be changed. Calling the genre an "extreme genre" isnt untrue however it doesn't describe every band of the genre as some bands described as Mathcore play styles such as Screamo and Post-hardcore albeit with rhythmic complexity (for example The Number Twelve Looks Like You or The Fall of Troy). I suppose that the former lead before this huge overhaul was better then the one present. Dekai Averett (talk) 20:10, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I used the term extreme music because its disambiguation page refers both to extreme metal and hardcore punk with its associated genres, but I also think it could be reworded. My rework of the article focused on the origins of the genre and I tried to compilate all the interviews available on the web of band's members of the first mathcore bands and those who infuenced them, not reviews or articles from critics which usually are based on similarities rather than actual facts (like most AllMusic). That's why I removed grindcore and math rock, because none of the first mathcore bands cited them (at least not as a prominent influence), and also the sentence stating that it's a mix between hardcore punk and heavy metal, because that's metalcore and neither of those genres impacted mathcore directly or substantially.
 * From what I've gathered, The Fall of Troy was influenced by mathcore (Botch, Dillinger) and post-hardcore (The Blood Brothers, At The Drive-In) and about TNTLLY's founding members: Alex Pareja cites Robert Fripp of King Crimson and John McLaughlin of Mahavishnu Orchestra, whereas vocalist Jesse Korman credits The Red Chord and Strife, (besides all their new influences obviously). It'd be great to expand the influences of bands that formed from Jane Doe on (for example, post-Minakakis-era Dillinger Escape Plan, Car Bomb, Rolo Tomassi and The Fall of Troy draw on electronic music heavily) and rewording the lead or the article, but when information is added or replaced, it'd be needed sources to back it up. Ojo del tigre (talk) 07:14, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Recent Lead Changes
The lead describes the genre as a fusion of hardcore punk and extreme metal however this is true for metalcore in general so there is no point in stating this if we already start with saying it is seen as a sub genre of metalcore. The first sentence should address the fact that the genre has time and tempo changes as that is the defining characteristic of the genre. Dekai Averett (talk) 21:07, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

Removed the line describing “the genre as a fusion of hardcore punk and extreme metal“, however time and tempo changes are mentioned in the lead paragraph and I feel like there in a good spot. OBLIVIUS (talk) 01:45, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Influences Change
Some editor FMSky just changed all the influences for mathcore with choices that aren't connected at all. They used the same unreliable source that is in german for all of them and removed some key genres. Apparently now mathcore's stylistic origins are in post-hardcore, industrial metal, and death metal and they completely removed hardcore punk and put metalcore at the last. User has been making weird edits like this on many other articles. I can't undo the edits because they are conflicting Figurila (talk) 00:30, 22 February 2024 (UTC)


 * the site wasn’t showing up mb, its reliable Figurila (talk) 01:30, 22 February 2024 (UTC)


 * you're apparently an expert on the reliability of sources. Why do you think laut.de isn't reliable?
 * anyway it's reverted for now. I don't really care either way, I just stumbled across this source and saw this article wasn't properly sourced so I put it in