Talk:Matlalcueitl

I can't find any references to Matlolcueitl that don't refer back to the Wikipedia article on Tlaloc. Can someone educate me? The name "She of the Jade Skirt" refers to Chalchiuhtlicue.

Dystopos 00:06, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * The closest to this name that I can find in my (admittedly limited) references is Matlalcueje. -Sean Curtin 02:00, Nov 29, 2004 (UTC)


 * I've combined these two under Matlolcueitl and eliminated the identification with Chalchiuhtlicue except to refer to this one in the latter article. I don't have any other reference to clarify the matter, but the best I can tell, Matlolcueitl is a little used, possibly non-Aztec rain goddess who, at best, is sometimes identified with Chalchiuhtlicue. I'm pretty certain that the listing for Matlolcueitl and the references to her in Tlaloc, etc. have been mistakenly using her name for Chalchiuhtlicue. Certainly if I learn anything more, I'll continue to edit these listings. Dystopos 06:00, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * As far as I can tell, "Matlolcueitl" is another name for Chalchiuhtlicue, and Matlalcueye/Matlalcueje is a different goddess entirely. -Sean Curtin 01:34, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)


 * What is the source for Matlolcueitl as an alternate name for Chalchiuhtlicue? All I've turned up is a clue that Matlolcueitl might be etymologically derived from the name of a mountain, Malinche, in Tlaxcala. I've emailed the only Nahautl scholar I know to try to find out more, specifically about the names. It is evident that the translation of Matlolcueitl as "Lady of the Green Skirts" is erroneous and has been spread all over the web, apparently beginning with Wikipedia. Dystopos 18:01, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Well, it appears I am full of errors myself. I am told that "matlalli" is Nahautl for green, while "chalchiuh" refers to a green jade-like stone and "cueitl" is the word for skirt. So "matlolcueitl" and "chalchiuhtlicue" are nearly synonymous linguistically. (though perhaps not used interchangeably to refer to one deity). "cueye" and "cueje" are just alternate (and disfavored) variant spellings for "cueitl" - I will be getting some more information and references this week, so hopefully this will be straightened out soon enough. Dystopos 19:23, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, I doubt that the error of mistaking these multiple names for multiple distinct deities originated in Wikipedia, or even on the Internet. Even the more reliable print sources contradict themselves and each other when it comes to "minor" subjects like this regarding the Aztecs and other Native Americans.  -Sean Curtin 23:13, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)


 * No doubt you're right about the source of the confusion. There is a separate issue about the spread of confusion that intrigues me. I think I got 6 pages of results on Google for "matlolcueitl" and, with maybe three exceptions, they were all direct quotes from the Wikipedia articles on Matlolcueitl or Tlaloc, whether cited or not. It made me think of the spectrum between "access" and "authority" that distinguishes this information source from, say, the Britannica. Coming here for information is one thing, because Wikipedia is constantly being updated and corrected and the site provides a contextual frame that reminds you that while this may be fantastic information, it is not authoritative. What happens, though, is that a whole legion of other sites get their content from here and present it out of that context, as if it is authoritative. Anyway, we're both doing our job. And boldly. Thanks for checking up. Dystopos 00:47, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)