Talk:Matsubayashi-ryū

Frank Grant passed away this month (December 2019)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 06:43, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 05:09, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Ansei Ueshiro
This statement needs a source/citation "1969 was dismissed from the organization by Nagamine Shoshin O-sensei" otherwise it should be removed and Ueshiro's name should be restored to the list of practioners.

Matsubayashi vs Shorin
The Japanese language is a difficult language to learn to read and write for a westerner. First one must learn to speak it, and it is one of the more difficult languages to learn for a westerner for a number of reasons. Then one must learn two alphabets and the kanji system. The two alphabets are not interchangeable (it is not acceptable to use either in a given situation, but both must be used in specific cases). Using the wrong alphabet in the wrong situation is a sign of ignorance. In addition to two alphabets, there are two readings for every kanji, ON and KUN. Just like the two alphabets, the two reading of the kanjis can not be interchanged. There is NEVER a situation that the same kanji in the same word can be read as either ON or Kun, at the reader's discretion. Using the wrong reading (pronunciation) for a Kanji is a sign of ignorance. It is easy for a Westerner to get this confused.

For those who disagree, I challenge you to come up with 10 words in the Japanese language that the ON and KUN readings are both acceptable in the same word.

Thus the word spelled by the kanji, (松林流) has one correct pronunciation out of two possible pronunciation (either the ON or KUN pronunciation, but not both), which the reader must figure out which is correct. There are rules, and many exceptions. So as my Japanese teacher in college said, sometimes you must “just know”. The two possibilities are either matsubayashiryu or shorinryu, but not both. The correct reading of (松林流) is matsubayashiryu, and not shorinryu. Those that read (松林流) as shorinryu are showing their ignorance. That is why you will not see (松林流) listed in the okinawan web site http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng) as shorinryu, rather always matsubayashi (http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/008/index.html).

To further illustrate this, you never hear some one referring to go to the michiba (kun for dojo), because one can not freely interchange the ON and KUN pronunciations. In fact, if you said you are going to the michiba, no one would know what you are talking about. You would never call Mr. Tanaka as DENCHU-SAN, but always Tanaka-san. His name is Tanaka, not Denchu. The ON and KUN readings are NOT interchangeable. If you said “hey Denchu-san”, he would ignore you, not knowing what you are talking about. Likewise, the correct pronunciation of (松林流) is Matsubayashiryu, not Shorinryu, and if you say shorin-ryu, everybody in Okinawa will think you are talking about 小林流 not 松林流. Again, I challange anyone who disagrees to come up with 10 Japanese words where the ON and KUN pronunciations are equally acceptable.

It should also be noted, that Matsubayashiryu is of the tomari-te line, not shuri-te (http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/003/004/index.html) and (http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/008/001/index.html).

I have made corrections clarifying both of the above. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.36.122.98 (talk) 18:28, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

/--

First of all I would like to start by saying that English is not my first language, so if I make any kind of grammar o syntax mistake in this note I will offer my apologies to every one, I definitely don’t mean any disrespect to the participants of this discussion or to the Wikipedia administrators; the only purpose of my comments is to bring some light to certain aspects of this discussion that appears to be a little off from what I think are some facts that are not been taken under consideration so far. It is unquestionable what has been exposed here about the use of the kanji characters and their pronunciation, nevertheless I don’t see the need of challenging anybody to look for Japanese words that can be pronounce in both way (“On” and “Kun”) because by doing that we are taking things out of context and we will be talking about things that do not properly apply to this matter. In my very personal opinion (of course I could be wrong!) we have to go farther back in history and examine the circumstances of how Shorin-ryu came to be, if I am not mistaking in the process of the creation of Shorin-ryu had been a direct participation of Chinese martial arts, to be more specific the Shaolin shuan which actually merged with the “te” (the local Okinawan self defense techniques) up to the point that some of the Katas was directly adopted from the Chinese masters that came to Okinawa to show their styles, even had been speculated about the relationship between the term “Shaolin” and “Shorin”. Like happen in many other places around the world: Languages in general has the tendency to adopt or adapt some terms from foreign tongs or languages that: •	become too popular •	have not translation on the native language •	to preserve the origin of the term for respect or sentimental reason •	because had been repeatedly use and /or pronounced in certain way for too long •	or because has been calculatingly decided to be use in that particular way

I am incline to believe that is a combination of all this factors that permit the use of the terms of Matsubayashi-ryu and Shorin-ryu in this interchangeable fashion with the acceptance of the founder of the style Sensei Shoshin Nagamine.

I think it is too risky of calling anybody ignorant for a common misuse (if you want to called it that way) of the terms Shorin-ryu and/or Matsubayashi-ryu when even the same “Shoshin Nagamine” on his book “The essence of Okinawan Karate-do” offer a very good explanation about the name of the style and its history, which by the way brings another discrepancy between of what is written on the article and what the Founder of the Style have to say about the origins of the Matsubayashi style; according to Shoshin Nagamine he specifically said that it descend from the Shuri-te and say nothing about Tomari-te, even knowing that Shori, Tomari and Naha are close region where the main Karate styles have been developed, Sensei Shoshin Nagame do not associate his style to the Tomari-te line (at list in his book), and I quote:

“Naha-te is divided into two styles–Gojo-ryu and Uechi-ryu. Shuri-te is divided into three styles–Two are called Shorin-ryu and a third is called Matsubayashi-ryu. I practiced the Matsubayashi-ryu style of Shorin-ryu. Many students are often confused because the terms are used interchangeably. The fact is that both are correct, since there can be a reading of the kanji (characters) taken from the Japanese language, as well as reading from Chinese. Thus, the character meaning pine tree can be read as “matsu” or as “sho”, and the reading of forest can be either “hayashi” (there is a phonetic change of “h” to “b”) or “rin”. Normally, my style is referred to as Shorin-ryu. When a definite distinction is desired between my style and the other styles of the Shorin family, then it is called Matsubayashi-ryu.” Shoshin Nagamine. “The essence of the Okinawan Karate-do” Page 22, line 34 to 41 and Page 23, line 01 to 12 As a Wikipedia users I do believe that our duty Here is to try to refine and filter the information that is offer to the public. On this note if my point of view proves to be wrong I beg you to enlighten me with a reasonable explanation.Joseboissiere (talk) 02:23, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

As stated earlier, if yhou believe that it is acceptable to pronounce a japanese wword with either the on or kun readings, give us 10 examples. we are still waiting for this. the reason you don't want to do this, is not because it is not relevent, it is because there are none.

to answer you specific questions, maybe you should read the links sited as references

The Official Okinawa description of Matsubayashi-ryu

mastuyabashi is not a shuri-te, but a tomari-te, (referenced and ignored).

shorin-ru is a term coined by chosin chibana, not chinese shaolin, well documented even in the wikipedia entry for shorin-ryu.

the kanji for shaolin and matsuyabashi are not the same, as you imply they are. it is impossible for you reasoning to follow when the words are completely different in japanese like the words two and too are completely different.

I have personally witnessed an american matsuyabashi student claim to be practicing shorin-ryu, and afterward my 8th dan instructor from okinawa was laughing at him saying the guy didn't even know what style karate he practiced. modern 2010 ussage does not allow for this pronunciation.

wikipedia is meant to be informative, and correcting a misusage is informative, though perhaps troubling for someone who is has been mispronouncing their style.

if one looks at the 2010 okinawan world karate tournament, matsuyabashi-ryu is translated as matsuyabashi, not shorin-ryu. that is today's usage.

there is never a case where a word in japanese can be pronounce with either/or on or kun. if you disagree, name ten, or even fives words that can be pronounce with both reading. we're waiting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.171.122 (talk) 16:31, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

taking references out of an article
come on now

taking references out of an article because they do not agree with your opinion. what ever happened to to core principle of Wikipedia, verifiable and neutral? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.232.173.26 (talk) 21:50, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

once again references taken out of this article, and then revised without comment or references. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.172.177.210 (talk) 21:24, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

121.72.205.214
please quit deleting and replacing sections and references without comment.

If you disagree with what is published, please enter the discussion and make your case.

if you wish to challenge please enter the discussion and make your case.

please do not simply delete without answering the very strong points that have been made that disagree with your anonymous opinion.

pink is never red. pink is a combination of red and yellow. just because pink paint required red paint in the mixture, does not mean it is okay to call it red. pink is still pink. Likewise a mule is never a horse. While it is true that a horse MUST be one parent of a mule, a mule is NEVER a horse. Likewise, Tomari-te is never Shuri-te. While it is true that Shuri-te MUST be one parent of Tomari-te, it is NEVER shuri-te. tomari-te is by definition a blending of Naha-te and Shuri-te. once naha-te has been introduced into a style, it is never considered shuri-te anymore. Look at the kangi. 松林流 is not 小林流. 松林流 (Matsuyabashi-ryu) is not 小林流 (shorin-ryu)

mark bishop on page, 86 of Okinawwan Karate Teachers ,Styles, and Secret Techniques clearly indicates that Matsuyabashi is a distinctly different style from Shorin-ryu when he talks about the formation or the okinawa Karate-do Federation that “included the styles: Goju-ryu, Uechi-ryu, Shorin-ryu (kobayashi), and Matsuyabashi-ryu”.

Wikipedia is meant to inform not promote ones false beliefs. 121.72.205.214 has informed and impressed me with his ignorance and closed mindedness. References have been erase how many times by 121.72.205.214?

the on-kun discussion clearly explains what is causing your misunderstanding. Until you can find 10 other words that can be pronounced with both on and kun reading, or a known linguist that can refute what has been said, the a horse is still a horse, pink is still pink and matsuyabashi is still matsuyabashi. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.172.177.210 (talk) 20:36, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

MATSUBAYASHI-RYU PAGE CORRECTIONS
1.The version stating that Matsubayashi-ryu is a style of Tomari-te is incorrect. The only reference cited for this statement is from the Wonder Okinawa website. http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/008/001/index.html

There is no doubt that Tomari-te had a huge influence on Nagamine sensei in the foundation of his style. Yes Matsubahashi-ryu did develop partly out of Tomari-te, but also partly out of Shuri-te,

The above reference does not actually state that Matsubayashi-ryu is a style of Tomari-te. In the ¨Discription of Matsubayashi-ryu¨ it mentions both ancestor schools Shuri-te and Tomari-te by way of reference to Kyan and Motobu sensei. What it does do, is list the kata of Tomari-te that have been preserved in Matsubayashi-ryu and other Shorin styles. Unfortunately the design of this website, has led to confusion by placing style descriptions in side kata information.

MATSUBAYASHI-RYU IS A STYLE OF SHORIN-RYU

The following references clearly state that Matsubayashi-ryu is a style of Shorin-ryu, (Shuri-te) '''What the reader needs to understand is that the references to Shorin-ryu are NOT referring to the Shorin-ryu founded by Chosin Chibana. (except where it is specifically mentioned)'''

1a. Shuri-te, along with Tomari-te, developed and eventually combined and became known as Shorin-ryu. Patrick McCarthy, with Mike Lee, explains in his book Classical Kata of Okinawan Karate ISBN 0-89750-113-6 Chapter 1 page 18 ¨Creation of Styles. History records that Bushi Sokon Matsumura,...was responsible for developing the fighting style which became prevalent around Shuri and which became known as Shuri-te. Naha-te was popularized by Kanryo Higaonna. Tomari-te was popularized by Kosanku Matsumora and Peichin Oyadomari. 	Shuri-te subsequently became the Shorin-ryu school from which five branches were established: Matsumura Seito, founded by Hohan Sokon; Shobayashi-ryu, founded by Chotoku Kyan; Kobayashi-ryu, founded by Chosin Chibana; Matsubayashi-ryu, founded by Shoshin Nagamine; and Shorinji-ryu, founded by Joen Nakazato. Naha-te became known as the Shorei school.¨

1b. The founder of Matsubayashi-ryu, Nagamine Shoshin, was a respected Karate Master in Okinawa as well as a respected historian of Okinawan martial arts. In his book, The Essence of Okinawan Karate-do. ISBN 0804832056 chapter 1 page 22, he unequivocally states ¨I practice the Matsubayashi style of Shorin-ryu. Matsubayashi-ryu is also called Shorin-ryu.¨ and further states on page 23 ¨Normally, my style is referred to as Shorin-ryu. When a definite distinction is desired between my style and other styles of the Shorin family, then it is called Matsubayashi-ryu.¨ If Nagamine had believed that Matsubayashi-ryu was a style of Tomari-te then one would assume he would have said so, he didn’t! Tomari-te, in the context of style development, is hardly mentioned in his book but he does mention Shuri-te and Shorin-ryu a lot. In fact, in his first mention of “Matsubayashi-ryu” in his book chapter 1 page 21 at the end of a section on “The Art of Te” Nagamine says this. “…the Kusanku kata, used in Matsubayashi-ryu, a style of the Shuri-te method of karate.”

1c. The ¨Directory of Okinawa Karate and Kobudo¨ is a Okinawan Precfectural Government website  listing karate and kobudo dojo in Okinawa. The Matsubayashi-ryu dojo are listed under the heading of Shuri-te and are further described in English as ¨Shorin Ryu¨ http://www-edu.pref.okinawa.jp/hotai/karate/dojolist-2009/shurite11.html (The reason that there is no Tomari-te listing on this website will become clear later.)

1d. There are other observed reasons as to why Matsubayashi-ryu is considered a style of Shorin-ryu.

1d.i.The official Organisation of Matsubayashi-ryu (WMKA), headed by Soke Takayoshi Nagamine, uses Shorin-ryu in its description of its style on its website  http://www.matsubayashi-ryu.com/

1d.ii.The official WMKA badge as does the badge of most major related schools have the words Shorin Ryu and the kanji 松林 (Matsubayashi) as part of the design.

MATSUBAYASHI-RYU DEVELOPED FROM SHURI-TE & TOMARI-TE

2. The next statement that is in contention is: ¨Because Tomari-te is considered to be a blend of Shuri-te and Naha-te and because Nagamine´s style is blended, it is considered Tomari-te and not Shuri-te.¨

This statement is incorrect in all aspects. No references are given for this statement.

2.a. Tomari-te is not a blend of Shuri-te and Naha-te. Tomari-te was one of the three main styles  of Okinawan-te and was developed in  the Tomari area. Matsubayashi-ryu may have kata from all the Okinawan-te styles (Shuri-te, Tomari-te and Naha-te) but it is quite different from the style of Naha-te. The Essence of Okinawan Karate-do. ISBN 0804832056 chapter 1 pages 21-23

2.b. Tomari-te ceased to exist and was absorbed by Shuri-te. Thus the combined Shuri-te/Tomari-te methods became Shuri-te and eventually Shorin-ryu. (This is probably why there is no Tomari-te list of dojo in Okinawa) The Essence of Okinawan Karate-do. ISBN 0804832056 chapter 1 pages 21,24

http://seinenkai.com/ The History of Japanese Karate. Masters of The Shorin-ryu. by Graham Noble with Ian McLaren and Prof. N. Karasawa Part Three: The following article (the last of three parts) originally appeared in Fighting Arts International, Issue No. 52, Volume 9, No. 4, 1988 (pages 28 - 32)

[Tomari is a fishing port close by Shuri. By the last century it had developed its own style of te, Tomari-te. The history of this style is extremely obscure, but we know that it produced some fine experts such as Kosaku Matsumora, Kokan Oyadomari and Yoshie Yamada, the so-called "Three heroes of Tomari". It may well be that some Tomari-te kata have been lost. The only three present-day kata that can be traced back to Tomari are 'Wanshu,' 'Rohai,' and 'Wankan,' although the style had its own versions of other kata such as 'Passai.' According to Choki Motobu in his book 'Ryukyu Kempo Karate-jutsu, Kumite-hen' (1926), "Wanshu and Rohai were used only in Tomari until geographical reorganisation in 1871 was made as part of the Meiji Restoration. No one in Shuri or Naha learned these two forms until then, but later they were introduced to those main cities in Okinawa." It seems that as the Okinawan karate world opened up there was some transfer between styles, with the result that these three Tomari kata at least are now taught in Shorin and related schools. In a sense Tomari-te became subsumed within the Shuri-te style which produced Shorin-ryu and Tomari-te as a separate entity ceased to exist sometime this century... ]

2.c. Nagamine’s style, ( It is called Matsubayashi-ryu) is not a blended style. It is a modified and developed style of Shorin-ryu (Shuri-te). (references already provided)

2d. http://seinenkai.com/ Master Funakoshi´s Karate, The History and development of the Empty Hand Art Part 2. by Graham Noble

¨The first recorded use of the terms Shorin and Shorei was by Ankoh Itosu in his Ten Teachings in 1908. Itosu wrote ¨In olden times two styles of karate, called Shorin and Shorei, came from China.¨... ¨ Ankoh Itosu did not give any details or description of the two schools of karate but it is generally agreed that Shorin referred to the style practised in Shuri (Shuri-te), and Shorei to the style of Naha (Naha-te). Shuri-te was developed into the modern Okinawan Shorin-ryu styles, and Naha-te evolved into Goju-ryu....Gichin Funakoshi supplied a definition of Shorin and Shorei in his book Ryukyu Kempo Karate (1922). He wrote ¨ We have many ryu-gi (schools) in Okinawa under the direction of many different teachers, but basically there are only two ryu. They are Shorin-ryu and Shorei-ryu.¨¨

THE KANJI

3.This matter seems to have appeared following an erroneous statement on the Wikipedia page stating that the kanji for Matsubayshi could be pronounced both as Matsubayashi and Shorin in Japanese, this of course is incorrect. However it is also not what Nagamine said at all. He was referring to the pronunciation of the kanji in both Japanese and Chinese. This is what he said: “…,since there can be reading of the kanji (characters) taken from the Japanese language, as well as a reading from Chinese.” The Essence of Okinawan Karate-do. Chapter 1 Pages 22-23.

It must be remembered that Nagamine was asserting that Matsubayashi -ryu is a style of Shorin-ryu because of its roots (Shuri-te/Shorin-ryu) not because if its kanji. The kanji has no bearing on the style issue. It is obvious that Nagamine meant his style to be called Matsubayashi-ryu even though he still considered it as Shorin-ryu. Don´t forget he created it, he should know. The entire paragraph on kanji pronunciation has no place in an article on Matsubayashi-ryu.

SUMMARY Shoshin Nagamine´s karate training was influenced by both Shuri-te and Tomari-te, which combined and became Shuri-te then Shorin-ryu as documented by Itosu (in 1908), Funakoshi (in 1922) and Nagamine, and It certainly does not refer to the style of Shorin-ryu founded by Chosin Chibana and named in 1933 which is its self a form of Shorin-ryu. Prior to founding Matsubayashi-ryu, Nagamine obviously considered the karate he was training in was a form of Shorin-ryu. Every reputable source already states that Matsubayashi-ryu is a style of Shorin-ryu. It is not based on the pronunciation of kanji, it is because of and a claim to its historical roots. I will be making corrections and simplifying the page please do not edit without discussion.

Deshi222 (talk) 00:07, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

"Country of origin"
The infobox says "Okinawa, Japan" as the country of origin, but in 1947 Okinawa, and the rest of the Ryukyu Islands, belonged to the United States. This should be changed.  ミーラー強斗武  (talk) 23:00, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

External links modified (January 2018)
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