Talk:Matt Walker (drummer)/Archive 1

misc discussion
This artical really needs a picture of him. It would make this artical look a lot better. I tried searching, but was unable to find a decent-looking one. -- Underwater 01:37, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I saw Morrissey last night and the night previous and Matt Walker is indeed playing drums. -Wiki lurker guy

Comment on editing Walker page
If you are going to edit Mr. Walker's page, please try to add items,(i.e., a picture) not delete items because you may have a personal bias against someone in Mr. Walker's life. Matt plays with Mr Nysted. They are friends. He played on Mr. Nysted's album. He will play with Mr. Nysted again.

It is not up to Wikipedia editors to differentiate between points in Mr. Walker's career and arbitrarily assign significance to a particular project, and not others. Edit war starting now? 63.93.197.67 18:12, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually... yes it is. It's sort of the whole point of Wikipedia: a community of editors comes together and creates an article.  We work primarily on verfiability, but also on notability.  If the consensus is that Nysted doesn't merit mention here, then continuing to add him could be seen as disruptive.  It's also worth mentioning that your IP resolves to a company that Mr. Nysted has claimed employment with, making this a fairly clear conflict of interest on your part as it is reasonable to assume if it isn't you Lee, then you are someone associated with Mr. Nysted.--Isotope23 18:52, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * er, eh hmmm ? ask Mr. Brandt about biography work and you will get a different story, me thinks, nicht vahr? You are involved and share a "bias." We think Mr. Walker wants his discography to be accurate. (That includes his verifiable works. AMG is reliable.) You do not?  That is not an encyclopedia, it is censorship, with a definitive bias toward your opinions.67.186.123.21 19:31, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Brandt and his issues with Wikipedia are a completely different thing all together; topical if you were arguing for the deletion of the article or removal of content, not topical for addition of content. Beyond that, I don't have a bias here; in fact as I recall it, the only involvement I've had with Lee was to remove his autoblock  and a couple of conversations about canvassing on Mario Party related articles.  I'm not sure how that points to any bias on my part.  As far as what you think and what I think... both are opinions and Wikipedia works on a consensus of opinions.  Enough editors have removed the text that I don't think there is a clear consensus to keep it in and given the fact that everyone who has added this cite seems to have a pretty clear connection to Mr. Nysted, I err on the side of caution and leave it out for now.--Isotope23 19:54, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Cool. Let's be "bold." My idea is that anyone can edit, soooo, and there is no consensus saying that Matt did not play on the album in question. The valididty of the work is not in question. It is proven as part of Matt's discography. You will not mind it if I put it back up seeing as how I love Walker's work on the album: SHOOT FROM THE HIP. It sure seems to be as verifiable as anything else up here. I live right by Matt in Chicago (Wilmette.) I am visiting one of his studios in Lake Bluff, IL. right now. Matt's brother is now playing with Matt, in the band with Morrisey. I am a fan of Matt Walker's playing and I want to contribute to his discography. Let's ask the Smashing Pumpkins Project if they mind? I will. They want a picture of Matt and I have one. 67.186.123.21 20:09, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't confuse verifiability with notability. Just because it he did play on an album doesn't mean it warrants mention.  You can be bold, but given your history here Lee I suspect that all you will achieve is getting the article protected from IP editing.  What I'd rather see is a WP:RFC here.  Let some uninvolved editors chime in here.--Isotope23 20:19, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Mr. Anon, keep in mind: That something is 100% true does not automatically mean it is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia. - Ehheh 20:23, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

"Shoot from the Hip" album mention RfC
I've opened an RfC on this to garner some outside, uninvolved comments. Opinions from editors/Admins who have had previous dealing with or from IP's that can be reasonably connected back to Mr. Nysted or his affiliates should be discounted. What is needed here is outside opinions from established editors with no connection to Nysted--Isotope23 20:25, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * My name is Steve D. and I am helping to bring more information to an article than is already present. The Pumpkin's project wants a picture. I create web sites and I have a picture. I am going to add a picture of Matt. I am adding to his discography. That is what we do here. Yes? Matt and his brother are touring with Morrisey right now.67.186.123.21 20:28, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * ...and Steve was previously editing from, which was blocked for WP:3RR on this article earlier today and is an IP that resolves to Mr. Nysted's company. This was pretty much what I was talking about above.--Isotope23 20:33, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Interested editors should take a look at Articles_for_deletion/The_Lee_Nysted_Experience, Administrators%27_noticeboard/Archive72, and Administrators%27_noticeboard/Archive77 - Ehheh 20:39, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Ehhhh hemmmm...Is that varifiable? Are you sure Mr. Nysted works in the U.S.?67.186.123.21 20:40, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Steve D.: while new to Wikipedia I can attest that multiple opinions often cause conflicts. Since you know the drummer and seem to be a fan of his, it is easy for readers to call your objectivity into question (though, I do not intend to do so here). However, that does not negate the notability of the album in question. Can you find another user that does not know the artist either personally or professionally? That editor might be able to give some insight that may also appear more objective. Please, know that I am not claiming that your are not objective, but it is often best to avoid even the appearance of impropriety. Trigam41 20:41, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

How can I get more objective than going to the source?
 * Comment from Webmaster:

You can see for yourself: Matt Walker plays all drums and percussion on Lee Nysted's 2005 debut album, ''Shoot From The Hip''.


 * All Music Guide review

See what I mean? If you do not like Lee or his music, the fact remains: Matt plays with him.67.186.123.21 20:47, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

No one is saying that we don't like Lee, Matt, or either of their music. No one is stating that Matt did not play with Lee. I think you guys are arguing apples and oranges. You're trying to prove it occured, while Isotope is simply trying to state that it is not a notable event. Trigam41 20:50, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not actually arguing either way. verifiability isn't the issue here; notability is.  I don't have an opinion either way on notability; I'd like to see that decided by outside editors who don't have a history with this topic or subject particularly give the amount of disruption that has surrounded Nysted related topics.--Isotope23 20:59, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Notability is a guideline for the existence of an article, not the content of an article. I don't see a good reason to exclude this information (of course, with due weight... which would be very little... where is this info supposed to go?) — Demong talk 07:39, 28 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi guys, I am Webmaster Steve D. I see a discography issue here. That is that. Many artists play on albums that never make it.  They live in towns that are ignored. They were born in non-notable towns. Get real people. It is part of Matt's life. Forget Nysted and remember the article is about Matt's work. He played on an album that is on AMG that makes it a reliable source. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Music_Guide) Do you want me to put the album in the Wikipedia list? I'll do that when I put up Matt's picture. 67.186.123.21 21:06, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I will contribute reliable sources for everything I put up. Is there an objection to adding albums and tours that Matt and his brother have been working on? I see a MySpace page has been allowed for some time, why would anyone object to improving the article beyond a stub? S.D.67.186.123.21 01:10, 25 April 2007 (UTC) I will even sign my posts and create an account under the name WebmasterSD. 12.35.96.66 02:10, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Anybody here? I would like to add discography information to Matt's site and contribute a picture of him.

Ok, I am back. How do thess sentences do anything more or less for Matt's bio, than the sentence you are trying to eliminate, Mr. Isotope?

"Matt went on to other collaborative efforts in The Cupcakes, Shiny, American Sunshine, Ashtar Command, Bullet Train, and the German Shephards."  Look notable? Mr. eheh? Why did you not look at these?

"In 2005, he performed on various songs on Garbage's album, Bleed Like Me, and toured with Billy Corgan promoting TheFutureEmbrace, on which he contributed drumming."

Do they give references and a source? Many people are not "notable."

Now:

Matt Walker plays all drums and percussion on Lee Nysted's 2005 debut album, ''Shoot From The Hip''.


 * All Music Guide review

Do you see how anyone trying to make a case for eliminating the Nysted reference, is doing it for reasons that can only be described as questionable. WebmasterSD  67.186.123.21 14:14, 25 April 2007 (UTC)67.186.123.21 14:20, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The difference is that one band and album are notable (notice that both Garbage and Bleed Like Me have articles) and the others are not. Mentions of Mr. Nysted or his work serve primarily to promote him, and that's not what Wikipedia is for. -Ehheh 14:24, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Hhhhhmmmm?

Is there another sentence in the bio that I was referring to that you did not take out? Yes, several. I believe I have established the source of all of this. Mr. Eheh is not an objective outside source of anything. He is coming straight from MySpace and the crownd there. He was involved with the original problems. The album does not have to be successful to be part of a discography. Two years from now, it may or may not be successful. That is not logical. It is Walker that is notable. It is a Walker article and he played on the record. Please step aside eheh.67.186.123.21 17:37, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Why did you not take these out Mr. Eheh?

"Matt went on to other collaborative efforts in The Cupcakes, Shiny, American Sunshine, Ashtar Command, Bullet Train, and the German Shephards. Walker is also a member of the Most Dangerous Race." Your MySpace link is notable? How about the other non-notables?

I do not want ot go there. I can run the analysis right here and determine where you are and where you were. You have an Axe to grind? Take it back to MySpace and let me go to work, please. 67.186.123.21 17:47, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Analysis complete from St. Louis IP: Please do not embarass youself, Mr. Ehheh. Let it go, please. 12.35.96.66 18:00, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't have (nor have I ever had) an account on MySpace. I'm not sure what 'original problems' you're talking about. Can you post a link? I'm curious. -Ehheh 17:43, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Wrong answer, although we will be polite by asking you to please step aside. You are not objective. 12.35.96.66 18:04, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Given the above, I think I'll join Isotope23 in waiting for additional uninvolved editors to arrive and comment. - Ehheh 18:16, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * You are mistaking disagreement for lack of objectivity. As the article is about Walker, not Nysted, it should only mention things that are important to Walker's career.  There is no evidence that playing on this self-published album was important to his career.  Walker's official site did not even mention it in the discography. ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 22:14, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * At this point I am content to let the RfC run it's course and let the community decide to include the Nysted album reference or not.--Isotope23 14:22, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

The RFC has "run it's course" and you did not get one objective person, inclusive of you, Mr. Isotope, to give reason why the Nysted album should be left out of Mr. Walker's discography. One editor states the necessary policy/guidelines and you have ignored same. Further, you have left links and information that was mentioned as not at all referenced according to reliable sources, i.e., MP3.com and MySpace. This is hardly a finished issue, is it? 63.93.197.67 19:36, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me?
What community? You and me? I see no discussion anywhere. I have a right to edit that you have taken away for no reason. Take it anywhere you want, but leave the ego out of it and go back to reason and logic. Matt Walker is a bio article that deserves a discography. You want to take out part of the man's life? Why? What are your motives? Are the motives for or against an encyclopedia? Please restore my edits. Thank you. Stephen D. WebmasterSD  67.186.123.21 17:29, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * There is a request for comment. It's not an instantaneous process.  My motives are simply to see a thoughtful discussion about this information and the merits of its inclusion or exclusion happen without the usual puppetry and astroturfing that seems to follow around any mention of Nysted in articles here at Wikipedia.  If that discussion takes a day, a week, or a month it is in no way harming Mr. Walker.  The world will not end tomorrow.  We've got time.--Isotope23 17:52, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

"Before adding an entry here:

Do not post an RfC before working towards a resolution with other article contributors first. Whatever the disagreement, the first step in resolving a dispute is to talk to the other parties involved. Be civil, and assume good faith in other editors' actions. Consider getting a third opinion on a controversy that involves only two editors. If you want general help in improving an article, such as to Featured status, then list it at Peer review. Note that peer review is not for content disputes. Consider consulting the relevant WikiProject, especially for expert subjects like at WikiProject Mathematics. For disputes over implementing Wikipedia policy, consider consulting the relevant policy, guideline, or style page."

For shame:

Both of you have caused, what Mr. Steadman and Mr. Brandt have ranted about for a very long time, an unconscionable disruption of getting to the facts of the matter. You have taken it upon yourself to create your own rules. You, Mr. Ehheh, and you, Mr. Isotope, have created a roadblock to successfully editing a bio of a living person. Rather than doing the right thing, you have chosen to cause a scene and you have created a disrutption here at Wikipedia. If advertising the Nysted name doesn't bring the cabals back in one form or another, I will be shocked. In the meantime, you have perpetuated the myth that this place is running smoothly. The time taken to straighten this out has cost me, and this encyclopedia a fair share of credibility and money. Time is money, people. The rest of the sane world will see this type of issue as nothing more than a crack in the fabric of a great experiment. WebmasterSD67.186.123.21 18:49, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Given the history an RFC is exactly what is needed here; a fresh, uninvolved opinion from someone not in any way connected to Nysted.--Isotope23 20:08, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, reviewing your contributions, you sound just like Nysted and use the same arguments. Plus, you use an IP address at a company of which he claims to be Vice President and engage in the same patterns of wikibehavior.  If you're not him, you are clearly acting at his behest, so let me give you some advice, Lee.  This fuckwittery is not the way to get mentioned in Wikipedia.  Probably the easiest way to get mentioned here is to get newspapers or magazines to do full reviews of your work (not merely the directory listing that AMG has for you).  Fortunately, you live near Chicago, which has one of the most vibrant music scenes in the entire world.  Get some gigs and get the Tribune, Sun-Times, Reader, etc. to review you.  Get multiple full-length reviews (nontrivial mentions) and WP will happily do an article on you.  ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 22:10, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Counsel has spoken to the choir: This is not about Mr. Nysted and you are not an objective anything. This is not about you. This is about Matt Walker. He is entitled to a discography and a picture. I am qualified to do both. Like it or not, Matt Walker is notable and he played on an album that has a source that Wikipedia says is reliable. I am not going to respond to threats or conjecture. Do that in court, please. I also practice law in Illinois, sir. I see you do too. The above comment is no way to be construed as a threat of using "the law" (in this issue) save for Wikipedia guidelines (law.). 67.186.123.21 22:19, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Right, it's about Walker. There is no indication that playing on Nysted's album was important to Walker's career, so your argument is not very convincing. ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 22:31, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Music critic too, couselor? I thought you already gave your final "biased" opinion. Looking at your activity over the last several months, Nysted was the only large number of "contributions" you made. Please step aside. You are not an objective source here. The fact is this: being on an album that is published and listed in a verifiable source endorsed by Wikipedia as reliable is in essence a fact that Mr. Walker has a right to have in his bio. That is being an encyclopedia. Asking Mr. Walker if it important to his career is not the job of an encyclopedia. It might make sense for Rolling Stone, or Billboard. They asked him. He is given credits on the album at those publications, btw.

I have said there are many items in the bio that are not even referenced and are certainly not notable yet you persist on dragging the Nysted album up as the one item that cannot stay in the article. Seems very odd indeed. WebmasterSD  67.186.123.21 22:54, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * ...and you keep insisting that they Nysted album should be there...also very odd indeed. As I've stated before, verifiability isn't the only issue here; notability is as well.  Considering the fact that the only source being provided so far is an AMG listing where they didn't even review the album, and this listing has been added and reverted multiple times in the last few months, the appropriate course of action here is to let some objective, outside editors who have no connection to Nysted either on or off Wikipedia come to a consensus as part of the RFC.  This is the best solution.--Isotope23 23:55, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I was on a wikibreak for a few months and did not contribute at all, so your statement may be technically correct, but is actually misleading. I found the current campaign on behalf of Nysted when I checked my watchlist upon returning. ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 00:50, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Either way, you are not an objective editor in this case, and not uninvolved as shown by your history and your admitting to same. The fact that Nysted was on your watch list is a tip off, don't you think? I hope to help with this and many music articles that are clearly lacking reliable sourcing and frankly, any sense of notability. I will help to clear them up or shuffle them off. Sorry to say, even Walker gets almost nothing on Google. Oh well. I registered my name so I could go to work without being stopped by semi-protection. Cheers, WebmasterSD 00:57, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * No. Any page I edit goes automatically onto my watchlist.  I frankly would have no problem mentioning Walker's part in Nysted's album if an independent review had discussed it.  As it is, Walker did not even mention it on his website.  In short, there is no indication that this is significant to Walker, as numerous people have pointed out... ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 01:28, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
 * You still do not get it? You are not an objective person in this. You are out of line by staying around.

Besides, this is not about how successful Walker's career is, is it? He doesn't get as many Google hits as does Lee Nysted. It does not matter if the album is "successful" or what Mr. Walker thinks. Did we not establish that fact with Mr. Brandt? If Google was a criteria, we would eliminate the vast majority of the articles about living persons. WebmasterSD 67.186.123.21 01:43, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

So, who are you "allowing" to edit?
This looks very much like censorship, does it not, Mr. Steadman and Mr. Brandt? I will offer at least 6 verifiable sources for Mr. Walker's current affairs and his discography. If MySpace and MP3 are reliable sources and others too, then that will be a simple task. Please unprotect the article. I also have a very good picture of Mr. Walker. Thank you. WebmasterSD 00:36, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
 * MySpace and mp3.com would not be considered reliable sources for attribution.--Isotope23 15:26, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * That is fine, let's take them down from the article then? They seem to be the only reference to several items in said article. I will eliminate them from my list of references for the Nysted album. WMSD67.186.123.21 WebmasterSD 17:31, 26 April 2007 (UTC)17:25, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't see anything in the article currently being attributed to those sources. They are in as external links (which is acceptable), but I'm not sure exactly what text you are referring to as being referenced by those websites.  attribution would be a problem if those were being used as such.--Isotope23 17:35, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Links to Nysted album
You want to verify? You want reliable? Here, you have more than you would need to do the right thing. I will let you and the rest of your cabal have your way with whatever you are doing here.

(linkspam removed)

I would suggest you follow the rules, sir.

Have a great day! WebmasterSD 12:10, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I imagine if anyone really wants to add an album to Matt's discography, there is ^ at least one that is quite notable and seems to have very reliable sources. Thanks WebmasterSD for the research ! Why don't you add the album to list at Wikipedia while you are at it.