Talk:Matthew F. Hale/Archive 1

Neo-Nazi
If you want to call him a neo-nazi, cite someone calling him that, but don't place it in the narrative. He and his followers seem to take the term as an insult, and it is not neutral to refer to them as such. "White supremacist" or nationalist or whatever is clear enough. (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 12:54, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Do you have a source for Hale or his followers objecting to Neo-Nazi? He has been called a "neo-nazi" by many sources.  Cheers, -Willmcw 13:11, Mar 17, 2005 (UTC)
 * And giving the Nazi salute: [www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1357039/posts] -W. — Preceding unsigned comment added by User2004 (talk • contribs) 13:16, 17 March 2005 (UTC)

Hehe, I almost choked when I saw the Southern Poverty Law Center. If you want the phrase included in the article, you'll have to do far better than cite "advocacy" organizations like that. The other cites are equally biased (one suggests racism is due to genetic deficiency!). The photo is much better evidence, but not sufficient to call him a neo-nazi IMO, w/o some sort of neutral corroboration. (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 14:29, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * And what is the bias of the Pittsburgh Post Gazette? They are a major newspaper. -Willmcw 20:40, Mar 17, 2005 (UTC)
 * Additionally, it is not Hale who is being called a neo-nazi in this article, it is the Creativity Movement that gets the label. -Willmcw 20:43, Mar 17, 2005 (UTC)

2004 vs 2005
Am I crazy? I read about his sentencing today (4/6/05) but the article says 2004? --Feitclub 20:58, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)


 * you're not crazy...http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050406/ap_on_re_us/white_supremacist_trial_7 it's 2005 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.3.43.177 (talk) 21:08, 6 April 2005 (UTC)

Should it be pointed out
That neither Hale nor the Creativity Movement was responsible for the Lefkow murders? It was a great example of media sensationalism. Most newspaper stories spent half the damn time talking about Hale, and when it was discovered that his people hadn't done it, it became a footnote. --Edward Wakelin 00:05, 10 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree that the mistaken assumption was so widepsread that it deserves at least a sentence or two. Maybe tacked on to the end of the Lefkow section. Go for it. -Willmcw 05:30, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

Done. Not sure how it sounds PoV-wise, but it WAS media sensationalism. Couple murders? Yeah, that'll sell some papers. CRAZY NAZIS? BREAK OUT THE LARGE PRINT!--Edward Wakelin 20:24, 17 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Then find a source that says so. Phrases like "This can most likely be blamed on media sensationalism" do not belong in Wikipedia. -Willmcw 21:18, August 17, 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm searching... Problem is, it's hard to get the media to criticise itself, eh? (2 minutes later) Can't find squat, unless there's gonna be links to racist websites. This is the usual media thing: Crude sensationalism, page 1, screamer font, correction, page 5, 10 pt. --Edward Wakelin 03:12, 18 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Wow.


 * It is absolutely ludicrous to be outraged about 'media sensationalism' in this case. Hale and his cohort had made numerous threats on Lefkow's life and, at the time of the murders, Hale had already been convicted of soliciting her murder (he was awaiting sentencing). I submit that it doesn't require a terribly huge leap in logic, let alone sweeps-week-fueled sensationalism, to suspect his involvement. Indeed, the media aside, rational people everywhere figured there was a solid chance that Hale had something to do with it.


 * Granted, Edward, this may not have been a big story in Toronto until someone was killed, but here in Chicago, Hale and his "church" had been big news for years, beginning with Hale protege Benjamin Smith's two-state rampage in '99 and peaking with Hale's plot to have Lefkow, a federal judge need I remind you, murdered (for which he has since been sentenced to a 40-year prison term). I assure you, he was already firmly in our consciousness—and of his own accord. This was hardly a case of a non-story ginned up by the dailies.


 * That you describe this as a mere "couple murders" in the first place seems fairly telling. This was a matter of the deliberate targeting of a federal judge for murder—which is a fairly important story any day of the week, regardless of context or apparent suspects. 75.21.71.240 17:55, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Public life before Creativity
The article currently doesn't mention his (I think) brief involvement with a large Nazi political group, followed by his splitting and founding his own political party, prior to being part of the World Church of the Creator. The time between him being "independent" and being a "Creativist" is key to understanding what he was attempting, IMO. This was around 1992-1996, I believe. --Closeapple 22:11, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

The only book he wrote
Would there be any value in providing a link to the only book he ever wrote? It is a book on 911. http://www.solargeneral.com/911/WTC_1page.pdf It has been claimed over 100,000 copies of this book were downloaded since 2002 by the solargeneral.com webalizer report. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.238.50.65 (talk) 07:18, 23 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Well since it's about how the Jews were responsible for 9/11 and drags out thoroughly debunked and ridiculous lies about this you would guess no, there is no value in it. 220.233.94.28 13:21, 26 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The link you provided to, "The Facts the Government and Media Don't Want You to Know" written by Matt Hale in 2002, does not work. Carmelmount (talk) 22:13, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Homosexuality
I deleted the "He has now become a practicing homosexual", since it does not include any kind of source to that claim. If someone wants to insult this guy, let's leave it out of the wikipedia. (Can't find my password, so sorry :P) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.120.201.21 (talk) 05:39, 14 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Idiot, it's not an insult and it's a curious detail. Putatively an individual of his age without a known history of heterosexuality could be presumed to be homosexual with no further info than that absence (in view of the opprobrium to be expected in his millieu). But yes even stating it that way "he has no known history of heterosexuality" would require a source. 32.165.5.196 (talk) 18:05, 13 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Whether it is an insult is a matter of opinion; what is not is that expressions like ‘idiot’ are against wiki’s comity policy. Also, you can not presume anything on negative evidence. It is a pointer for further research, that’s all. 109.159.119.161 (talk) 17:58, 14 January 2018 (UTC)


 * In looking at earlier versions of the article apparently there was a 3 month marriage to a church member. What that would be support for or whether or not it was the case (since it's not in the current text) is unclear. 32.165.205.213 (talk) 18:24, 13 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Under the circumstances, how does one become a practicing homosexual, when one is not allowed physical contact with other prison inmates? I don't believe that masturbation between a man and himself is homosexual. or is it? Please clarify and what reliable sources can be cited that Matt Hale is a homosexual? Carmelmount (talk) 22:27, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Solicitation
I don't want to get into an edit war over a lunactic like Hale but it should be pointed out that the "solicitation" was Hale's responses of "I don't want want anything to do with it" and "you do what you want but I don't have anything to do with it" to constant solicitations made to kill the judge by a paid government infiltrator/agent provacotour named Tony Ebola over a 2 year period. Tommypowell 22:43, 25 December 2006 (UTC)


 * No the "solicitation" was the criminal statute he was convicted of based on evidence supporting that charge which included recordings. You won't have to worry about an edit war. If you were to attempt to modify the presentation of a settled case with such original research, without references, that will just be deleted, not edited. 220.233.94.28 —Preceding undated comment added 13:30, 26 March 2007‎


 * 220.233.94.28, your first sentence merely repeats what Tommypowell just said but in an erroneous and convoluted way. No, the claimed solicitation was *not* the criminal statute Hale was convicted of. That's putting the cart before the horse. The mere fact that such a statute exists doesn't demonstrate that everyone or anyone is guitly of violating it. One first has to commit an act of solicitation of murder in order for a conviction for it to be just. Hale was indeed convicted under a statute, but what Tommypowell is saying is that the charges are trumped-up and that the evidence is favorable to Hale.


 * I do find it intriguing that the Wikipedia article doesn't actually state what the act of solicitation to murder Judge Joan Lefkow was on Hale's part. One would think that would be worthwhile information to include, to say the least.


 * What was it that Hale actually did or said that solicited the murder of Judge Joan Lefkow? The Wikipedia article is deafeningly silent on that matter.--209.208.77.100 05:26, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I recall reading in TIME magazine. Hale apparently said (in response to "you mean, exterminate the rat?") "personally, I'm for acting within the law. If *you* want to do something, you can, OK?" He DID plead not guilty, and yes, his conviction was (I believe) somewhat controversial in some circles (not neccesarily ones normally sympathetic to white supremacists, mind you). "Incitement" can include "authorizing" a criminal act, and I'm guessing this was the basis of the prosecution's case (O.R. - someone can verify or dispute this). Yes, someone should source some stuff on the matter, and include it in the article. (No, I am not a white-supremacist sympathizer!) 124.179.226.55 (talk) 19:45, 16 August 2011 (UTC)


 * It is not wikipedia's place to provide original commentry on sentences. Until and unless there are reliable sources which say the charges are trumped-up and the evidence 'favourable' to Hale, then all we can say is all the reliable sources are saying which is that he was convincted of the crime describe. The personal opinions of editors are irrelevant. It may be acceptable, if done very carefully, to use a primary reliable source (i.e. court documents) to back up the information about the crime Hale was convincted of but this needs to be done with great care. Ideally a secondary reliable source which mentions the details of the crime is needed for this with the primary source only used as a backup. Ultimately, the key point we have to cover, which we do, is that Matthew F. Hale was convinced of a crime, specifically his 'soliciting the murder of Lefkow'. Everything else is secondary which I believe is what 220 was trying to say. Nil Einne (talk) 16:19, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
 * It just should be noted that Hale continues to dispute the charges. At least that's what I get from his site: http://www.freematthale.com/ --41.151.12.1 (talk) 08:10, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Anybody who wants to talk crap on Hale because he told an FBI agent "do what you want" after incessantly being asked if he should take out a "Jew rat" that was called a federal judge, and got 40 years in prison need only compare Rev. Hale's record to that of Assata Shakur who did a lot more and got even less time. That was Tupac Shakur's step-aunt. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assata_Shakur#Criminal_charges_and_dispositions 64.90.141.2 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:53, 16 May 2012 (UTC).

Bradley University
What range of dates did Matt Hale attend Bradley University? It says he attended in 1993 and got his degree, but it seems unlikely he'd be able to get a 4 year degree in 1 year. I attended the University around that time, and want to say he graduated in 1993, but I'm not certain. --Mr z 03:18, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Under Early Life it also states he was expelled in 1990, which I don't think was the case. He was an active student through much of my time there, and we even performed in the same orchestra one year, which I think was in 1993. -- 66.119.232.15 (talk) 20:28, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Release date
The article here on Wiki states his release date to be 2037, though in 2005, he was sentenced to a 40 year term. How does that add up, mathematically? That's only 32 years, not 40. Has anyone else notice that mathematical discrepancy??-- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rock8591 (talk • contribs) 23:45, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I chekced another newspaper archive which confirms the 40-year sentence. The Bureau of Prisons estimate may include some other factors, like crediting the time spent in prison awaiting trial and sentencing.   Will Beback    talk    22:50, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Most prisoners do not serve full sentences. Most are let off early for good behavior or some such thing.  Perhaps the estimated release date assumes that -- though I wonder whether he'll be able to achieve good behavior in an environment surrounded by people of color, given his strong beliefs.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Skysong263 (talk • contribs) 21:53, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Links
If anyone cares here are some links with sources for matters discussed elsewhere on this page.

Informant: Hale smiled, nodded to kill FBI mole testifies that Hale spoke in code, gestured his approval

Rick Ross is considered authoritative and reasonably unbiased Matt Hale links from Rick RossGeo8rge (talk) 23:14, 13 May 2009 (UTC)


 * FYI, Ross isn't really the source there. It's just a reprint of an article in the Peoria Journal Star, a mainstream newspaper.   Will Beback    talk    22:48, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Adding the title of "Reverend" to Matt's name on Wikipedia
I believe that the name of the article should be "Reverend Matthew F. Hale." I see a number of other religious leaders, (prosecuted or otherwise historically) that retain their religious title, so too should Reverend Hale obviously. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.250.42.90 (talk) 20:19, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
 * As you can read at WP:COMMONNAME, article titles should be the term most people will use when searching for the article, not necessarily the proper title of an individual. --Scochran4 (talk) 18:08, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

}Does this mean that we cannot precede Joan Lefkow with "Dishonorable" on her article? 47.137.189.77 (talk) 08:31, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

Mark Wilson
If I am not mistaken, Mark Wilson was the Pontifex Maximus for the Creativity religion, albeit for a short period of 5 months, thus making Hale perhaps the 4th PM of the religion.98.250.41.169 (talk) 17:06, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Fight or Die! "We Can't Win!" — The Most Common Alibi of the Cop-Out Mentality
'''During a television interview that summer, Hale stated that his church didn't condone violent or illegal activities. Meanwhile, Hale was distributing thousands of copies of the White Man's Bible. In public, Hale continued to speak out against violence, but according to the Chicago Tribune, his church's bibles expressed the opposite sentiment: "You have no alibi, no other way out, white man! It's fight or die!"'''

Greetings all... I noticed that sensationalized media propaganda has made it's way into this wikipedia page for Rev. Matthew Hale. Such simply cannot continued to reside on the wiki page. For instance, it gives a false impression that Creativity somehow urges terrorism or violence or something along those lines, while making reference to the fact that Hale has stated repeatedly that the WCOTC does not condone violent or illegal activities. (Which it did not and Creativity does not.) So, we come to a sticky situation, because the very chapter in which the quote is named after states flat out what action needs to be taken in order for one to join the "fight" and that is as follows:

1. Read and study both NATURE'S ETERNAL RELIGION and the WHITE MAN'S BIBLE so that you yourself are thoroughly familiar with our creed and program.

''2. Spread the word to every White Man and Woman you possibly can. Sell, loan or otherwise distribute the White Man's Sacred Books. Get them into the hands of as many White Racial Comrades as possible. It is the least you can do. Our initial goal is to place 10 million copies into the hands of our White Racial Comrades. (But this is only the start, the break-even point.)''

''3. Next, organize a small church group and start recruiting members. Hold regular meetings. Don't worry about legalities, organizational structure, incorporation, charters or whatever. First, get started. Then we will get to the charter and legalities.''

''4. Grow and expand. Help to build a worldwide organization.''

As we can see, that picture that is trying to be painted of Creativity and the honorable Rev. Matt Hale simply cannot nor will not hold up. It is best for the bold text above on the wiki page to be altered to better reflect the utter truth.

68.61.68.253 (talk) 01:13, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Truth has to be verifiable for inclusion on Wikipedia. I have not read the entire White Man's Bible, but from what I have read I get the impression that the end game of the Creativity movement is for white people to take possession of the entire planet Earth. Given Creativity's stance toward the Jews and "muds" as enemies, it is difficult to imagine how this will be done without some sort of violence. Or, am I missing something? 47.137.189.77 (talk) 18:03, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

Incorrect
"On April 6, 2005, Hale was sentenced to a 40-year prison term for soliciting an undercover FBI informant to kill federal judge Joan Lefkow." This statement is incorrect, Matt Hale never asked or solicited an undercover FBI agent to kill Judge Lefkow, he was entrapped. There is a difference. Carmelmount (talk) 22:07, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

He was sentenced for that crime - a fact not in dispute. If someone thinks the charge is incorrect, and that he was ‘entrapped’, put up a reference to someone claiming that. 109.159.119.161 (talk) 18:04, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Free Matt Hale
Would the Free Matt Hale website located at FreeMattHale.com be an appropriate external link for the wikipedia article about Matt Hale? Carmelmount (talk) 22:10, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Matt Hale could have freed himself by realizing that the moment anyone starts trying to get their approval for an act of political violence, they are stupid, a cop, or working for a cop. Just say no. 47.137.189.77 (talk) 18:07, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

In Klassen We Trust by Matt Hale
I added link to more than 60 hours of interviews and speeches of Matt Hale. *In Klassen We Trust. More than sixty hours of interviews of Matt Hale. Carmelmount (talk) 13:50, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

RfC
An RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 17:01, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Ethnocentrism vs racism
Regarding the "nontheistic and ethnocentric religion, Creativity": would "racist" not be more accurate? I realize of course that the term is pejorative, but surely it reflects the understanding of the vast majority of the public? Moreover, it would be in perfect agreement with the Wikipedia page Racism. Adam (talk) 14:22, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Matthew F. Hale. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20060214090434/http://www.splcenter.org/intel/news/item.jsp?site_area=1&aid=102 to http://www.splcenter.org/intel/news/item.jsp?site_area=1&aid=102

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers. —cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 00:43, 4 September 2015 (UTC)