Talk:Matthew Fontaine Maury/Archive 1

Talk About Matthew Fontaine Maury
i'm just doing a report on him, and i just wanted to write something........ does anyone know anything else about him? FroggyJamer 22:10, 5 November 2005 (UTC)happy day!!!:)

I guess not. I was kinda someone would write something down before Monday,........ oh, well.FroggyJamer 05:27, 7 November 2005 (UTC)


 * This is a question of style. In British English, which is what I, being British, write, one cannot begin a sentence with "Too," as in "Too, Maury served as a pall bearer for General...Lee."; it would have to be "Maury also served..." or "In addition, Maury served...". Although I naturally prefer my version of English, I am not a linguistic imperialist, and shall not impose my view and change the existing version, in case one can correctly start a sentence in American English with "Too" (though in all the years of my reading of prose written by Americans, I can't ever recall seeing such a usage). However, I hope a native speaker of American English will consider the point I've made and make the change if he/she considers an initial "Too" unsuitable also in American English.CWO 10:21, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Religious?
Some web sites credit, in part, Maury's belief in the Bible for some of his discoveries. Is this true according to him?

Read _The Bible and Science_ that Matthew Fontaine Maury gave a speech on to university graduating students.

If so, it definately ought to become part of the article. --Nerd42 01:50, 24 December 2005 (UTC)


 * This seems to be exaggerated or in least uncertain. found some letters by him where he does discuss Bible studies, but whether this influenced his science is debatable.--T. Anthony 16:03, 22 January 2006 (UTC)


 * M F Maury lived by the Holy Scriptures; created a prayer he said daily and read the scriptures constantly. They were his guide for every day living all of his life.


 * Hmm ... well the first result on this google search was this site which says:


 * ''Almost immediately, Maury began the greatest task of his career. He was determined that captains should have charts that would enable them to sail as quickly and as safely as possible around the world. He used old log books and thousands of new observations to produce his famous wind and current charts of the world’s major oceans. These achievements earned him the epithet, “pathfinder of the seas.”


 * Pathfinder of the Seas is also on his monument on Monument Avenue, Richmond, Virginia.


 * Maury also wrote ///Sailing/// Directions to accompany his charts, and he combined these with other observations about the ocean to produce The Physical Geography of the Sea, which first appeared in 1855. This was an immensely popular book, and marked the beginning of the science of oceanography.Throughout all this success, Maury never forgot his belief in Scripture. Physical Geography is filled with references to the Bible. He could not help but be fascinated by passages that mention the sea,


 * M F Maury was fascinated by the Bible long before he was fascinated by the Sea. His father Richard and mother Diana Minor -Maury [dau. of Gen John Minor of Fredericksburg, Virginia]raised their children with a lot of religion by reading scriptures before or after every meal.


 * every such as Psalm 8:8, Psalm 107:23-24, and Ecclesiastes 1:7. Whoever studies the sea, Maury contended, “must look upon it as a part of that exquisite machinery by which the harmonies of nature are preserved, and then will begin to perceive the developments of order and the evidences of design” (1859, p. 57).''


 * Now, if this is true about his book, this seems to me to be important/worthy of note, if only because Maury is often cited as being a "creation scientist". --Nerd42 (talk) 21:02, 22 January 2006 (UTC)


 * If accurate agreed. I knew something on his religiosity was in least worth mentioning.--T. Anthony 00:29, 23 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, having not read his book(s) and knowing little about him, I cannot confirm the accuracy of these claims made by the web sites at the present time. Doesn't anyone else know anything about this? --Nerd42 20:13, 24 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, I have read and transcribed many of Commodore ("Commander") Maury's publications as well as studied many of his nautical maps. Commander Matthew Fontaine descends from [France 1500 Jean (John) de La Fontaine] & Matthew Maury of [France; Huguenot families] M F Maury married Ann Hull Herndon of Fredericksburg, Virginia but he never declared himself as a 'creationist' in anything I have read. However, he was strongly opposed to Darwinism. Draw your conclusion from there.


 * Use Google or other search engines to find _A VINDICATION OF VIRGINIA AND THE SOUTH_, written by Commander Maury (COMMODORE in the Virginia provisional navy when on Va. Gov. John Letcher's "Council of three, electing R E Lee to his position) Matthew Fontaine Maury


 * The council of three was added to become the Council of seven and ceased when [Virginia which was declared Neutral Legally She had retained that right in the American Revolutionary War], ended up drawn into the Confederacy a couple of Months or more after Lincoln forced Carolina to fire on Fort Sumter. Three other states had awaited Virginia's decision; Arkansas, North Carolina, and Tennessee. Use search engine: _Star of the West_, and note that that ship, carrying a USA Flag had been given a bow shot warning but continued onward to either resupply Fort Sumter or cause The Civil War on purpose. She was next fired on and HIT TWICE This was months before Lincoln took office. The North did not want war until it was pushed by Lincoln's copying the template of the idea of the _Star of the West_ in attempting to re-supply Fort Sumter except Lincoln sent several Men-Of-War ships and let the governer of Carolina know they were on their way. The South was thereby 'forced' to then quickly fire on Sumter. Otherwise since Sunmter was out of provisions the South could have simply waited those in Sumter to leave in Peace.


 * But with several men-of-war ships on the way and near, there was haste in actions to get the men in Sumter to leave -- and they were still allowed to leave in peace when they surrendered. The men-of-war sat off coast watching the action and then continued South. Through PROVOCATION "The South started the Civil War"!? Without Lincoln copying the template of the _Star of the West_ (which carried 200 armed men below decks and provisions)


 * Search: _Civil War At Sea_ by Virgil "Pat" Carrington Jones,(3 vols.; New York: Holt, Rinehart and Winston, 1960-62). I think this is in the 1st volume. Go to the Library or use interlibrary loan if you cannot get the book. I've read them and others similar to those via Public Library. --Maury January 25, 2006 (UTC)


 * OK well ...
 * Firmly opposed to Darwinism
 * Quotes the Bible alot even when writing about science
 * ... sounds like a creationist to me. --Nerd42 22:27, 25 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I myself try not to label people when it comes to religions of the world. I just state what I know. Matthew Fontaine Maury would never consider science without thinking of God's "weather machines". He was a naval scientist and he would never be one to not use the Bible every day in every way he could in his work. Refer to that with whatever you desire. I know of the man quite well and I could never view M F Maury discarding either science, religion, or writing. He loved the sea (as I did when in the navy) and the incredible discoveries. Of these things I could never guess which he could ever give up. I would say none of them and there is more like geology and keeping a constant flow of several projects he decided upon going constantly from his high energy and good imagination. On recall as I type this online M F Maury could not write without including God (Scripture). Many people of his day, raised with the Bible, did not accept all of Darwin's findings although, as always, some agreed with portions while others rejected all of Darwinism and yet still others accepted Darwin's ideas.


 * It has been stated that in war and under fire, if you do not believe in God you soon will. From my own experiences I agree with that. It is an awakening of hard-core reality. Still, to each his own.--Maury.


 * You have to put things in a historical perspective. He died in 1873 it says.


 * What is "it" above?


 * Regardless, Matthew Fontaine Maury (b. Jan 14th, 1806 – d.1873 at Virginia Military Institute where he lived and worked in his civilian years. He was, and I have a photo, layed out in a casket in the Library, buried there in Lexington, Virginia directly across from Stonewall Jackson's first gravesite. M F Maury was placed in the Gilham vault and when spring came he was taken through Goshen Pass, as he desired, and laid to final rest in "Holly-Wood" (Hollywood)Cemetery in Richmond, Virginia over-looking the waters of the mighty James River -- which was once the Powhatan River. In the photo he is covered with medals given to him by several nations when he was a Lieutenant in the U S Navy. His daughters did that. There is a Monument to M F Maury at Goshen Pass. It includes a huge anchor and chain from the state of Tennessee that was in V.M.I. A globe was placed some short distance from his head which perhaps gave the sculptor the idea of the "Pathfinder of the Seas" monument in Richmond, Virginia.--Maury


 * Well I know it's popular in some circles to indicate that if someone failed to accept Darwinism as soon as it was stated then they were a creationist, but this is ahistorical. From my reading there were many mainstream scientists who embraced other theories of evolution up to the 1920s.


 * Please consider the brilliant scientist, Joseph Henry, of the Smithsonian. He lost many scientific friends because he would not accept Darwinism. I ask, is there anything wrong in being a Creationist? Too, defining a creationist includes introspection and personal beliefs. I think many people do not carry the exact same beliefs in creationism just as with Darwinism, I think individuals believe portions others believe but not all that others believe in creationism and Darwinism. It's somewhat like a blind person asking about colors. Each of us will have a different approach at the beginning and may well continue having a different explanation. I tend to cover the spectrum approach and explain that first, comparing it with various degrees of heat or cold and explaining that a color a person sees is what is reflected away instead of being absorbed by any object of any color. The explanation of light being white has to be covered and yet there is a color we call white. We differ in life experiences and readings and what we have been taught and we differ partly by our environment because we derive much of our experiences from our environment and yet there is the gene pool to also be considered. I ask now, explain creationism from your view and then explain Darwinism from your viewpoint. I suggest that people differ as much as there are religions in the world and as many churches split because of varied ideas. Who created God? Ae there more Gods than one? All is a belief system for every individual because we do not and can not KNOW all of the FACTS regardless of how much we BELIEVE anything. Polytheism was once the way of the cultured world of Egypt, Rome, Greece and so many other cultures and empires. Now it is monotheism. Whether polytheism or monotheism each was and remains a personal belief system that cannot be concluded as factual in this world we live in. Is there an after-life? Who knows? We may BELIEVE whatever we want but BELIEF is NOT FACT. This includes creationism vs darwinism and polytheism vs monotheism and perhaps other things we have not encountered yet.--Maury


 * In the 1880s I think this was even more true as many things still needed more evidence and support. For a scientist who died in 1873 to reject Darwinism means something very different than for one who died in 1973 or even 1943. If it's shown he rejected all theories of evolution then it might fit.--T. Anthony 01:02, 26 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Speculations are interesting. They keep our mind active and creative but ALWAYS, BELIEF is NOT FACT. --Maury 23:22, 19 March 2006 (UTC)


 * "Charles Wilkes and United States Exploring Expedition (1838-1842)" "This expedition was of major importance to the growth of science in the United States."


 * The above has nothing to do with the article on "Matthew Fontaine Maury" It is also covered under it's own article. Too, M F Maury turned down going on that expedition. He was originally assigned to assist Admiral Jones who was to lead that expedition before Wilkes was placed in line before other officers and given the position of being in charge of the expedition. Wilkes was court martialed when he returned to the USA.


 * Brother Officer 21:53, 7 January 2007 (UTC)--

There is only ONE reason his faith is not in the main article. It does not lend to the secular belief that "Creationists do not 'do' science." They must scrub it from his history. They would not include it even if he were to come back from the grave and tell them personally, even announcing it on PBS. The fact that there is a Bible laying by his left foot on his monument does not occur to those who hate the idea of God and the Bible influencing a founding science, that He did indeed find reasoning for his research from Psalm 8:8. He even stated in his work "The Physical Geography of the Sea and Its Meteorology" :

"though the fact that the air has weight is here so distantly announced [in Job], philosophers never recognized the fact until within comparatively a recent period, and then it was proclaimed by them as a great discovery. Nevertheless, the fact was set forth as distinctly in the book of nature as it is in the book of revelation; for the infant, in availing itself of atmospherical pressure to draw milk from its mother’s breast, unconsciously proclaimed it."

On his monument, which the article shows a picture of, reads:

Matthew Fontaine Maury, Pathfinder of the Seas, the genius who first snatched from the oceans and atmosphere the secret of their laws. His inspiration, Holy Writ, Psalm 8:8; Ecclesiastes 1:6.’

Interesting it is conveniently not shown in the photograph. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Notoadultery3 (talk • contribs) 17:16, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

serious lapse in quality of writing
Do not delete this. It was deleted in violation of Wikipedia guidelines.

This section--not the only section by the way--suffers from lack of clarity, is chock full of rambling, disjointed remarks and just simply reads badly.

To wit: The war would bring ruin to many in Fredericksburg, Virginia, where Maury's immediate family lived. Maury spent the war in the South, but mostly abroad as ordered in England, Ireland France, acquiring ships and much more like -- trying through speeches and newspaper publications to get other nations to stop the Civil War which Maury also did long before that war started and he never stopped. M F Maury had sent William Lewis Herndon to learn of the Valley of the Amazon and Lardner Gibbon (both had worked at the USN Observatory) to start from Para, and for both of the lieutenants to explore the Amazon area to the ocean while gathering as much information as possible including on slavery in any of those areas. It could have, in Maury's thinking, have served as a "safety valve" to rid the USA of slavery.

No new slaves would then be brought from Africa as was the situation at that time whereas Southerners with slaves could move out of the USA while seeking soils that were not depleted of needed minerals. This took place circa 1854, long before the differences about slavery assisted in bringing a war of "brother against brother". Had it taken root southerner slave owners would not need to contest the western lands, they could go South or sell their slaves down south" as perhaps as some northerners did while it has been asserted that they did sale them down south since domesticated slaves were very expensive." The whole article needs a rewrite. This would not pass as a freshman level essay at a run-of-the-mill community college.Malangthon 18:51, 6 January 2007 (UTC) Malangthon 03:48, 13 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Brother Officer evidently deleted the section above. If it happens agains, the vandalism will necessarily go to mediation. The quality of writing on Wikipedia is very much a concern here. Having nearly 30 years experience in the field, I am confident that my remarks are not remiss.Malangthon 03:53, 13 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I remember the situation. I was tired and thought the statements regarding a rewrite were on the ARTICLE page. I think I had removed "Charles Wilkes..." and then the TALK statements thinking they were all were on the article page. This is also because I keep looking at "Show preview" before saving and/or looking up something else before I saved. Therefore, that point in reply to your question was an error more than anything else. _Errors happen to all of us_ as I noted in one of your statements as I skimmed one of your pages.


 * Brother Officer 01:07, 14 January 2007 (UTC)


 * This article contained a lot of good information, but it wasn't particularly well written. I've done a plainer language edit in which I've attempted to retain the original information as much as possible, and to put content in appropriate sections so that it flows better. I've also added content from the Nautical
 * Digest which adds to the content.


 * I'm somewhat concerned about how well sourced some of the information is. I'm particularly concerned about the content about slavery prior to the civil war.  Can anyone identify the source?


 * Itobo 05:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

New Subsection of article?
Is that where I should put the fact that there was a one-reel film made of Maury called "Prophet Without Honor"? Incindentally, it covers a great deal of what is in this article - good job on someone's part, either Hollywood or you guys!FlaviaR (talk) 06:07, 20 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The short film that FlaviaR refers to ("Prophet Without Honor," MGM, 1939 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0031827/) makes several biographical points that are not included in the article, among which are: (1) that his early research in maritime climatology was strongly resisted by Naval and Merchant Shipping authorities, thus he was a much-persecuted scientific pioneer a la Galileo or Louis Pasteur; (2) that his return to the U.S. following the Civil War was delayed by the fact that he was not included in the general amnesty of CSA officials because he had served as an ambassador (a "foreign agent"); (3) and that his pardon and re-admission to the U.S. was achieved by the personal intervention of Robert E. Lee.


 * Would the article benefit from development of these themes in MFM's biography? — Preceding unsigned comment added by WhiteBTX (talk • contribs) 01:20, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Maury and the Confederados
I'm using this area to compile citations on Maury's link to the Confederados since it's been called into question by 'Brother Officer'. Ransak (talk) 21:30, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

http://blogs.static.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/20962.html

http://www.revistapesquisa.fapesp.br/?art=2556&bd=1&pg=4&lg=es

http://www.bitsofblueandgray.com/january2003.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ransak (talk • contribs) 23:05, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Source material in MGM short film "Prophet Without Honor" 1939
The short film that FlaviaR refers to ("Prophet Without Honor," MGM, 1939 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0031827/) makes several biographical points that are not included in the article, among which are: (1) that his early research in maritime climatology was strongly resisted by Naval and Merchant Shipping authorities, thus he was a much-persecuted scientific pioneer a la Galileo or Louis Pasteur; (2) that his return to the U.S. following the Civil War was delayed by the fact that he was not included in the general amnesty of CSA officials because he had served as an ambassador (a "foreign agent"); (3) and that his pardon and re-admission to the U.S. was achieved by the personal intervention of Robert E. Lee.

Would the article benefit from development of these themes in MFM's biography? — Preceding unsigned comment added by WhiteBTX (talk • contribs) 01:25, 2 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Too many statements in all of the above show me that the posters here do not know about Matthew Fontaine Maury and have to debate it. I do know about him and have read many books on him as well as transcribed books about him. I am in that process with his Physical Geography of thee Sea and its Meteorology. Matthew Fontaine Maury was highly religious. That review of the film about Robert Edward Lee forgiving M F Maury a pardon is exactly the opposite of what occurred. Lee wrote to Maury asking Maury to come back to Virginia in a letter stating, "Virginia needs all of her sons". M F Maury was in Mexico at the time and with a price on his head by the USA. I am surprised to see what was asserted by Lee in that film. Maury (talk) 08:15, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Role in Trying to Eradicate Slavery from the U.S.
Does anyone have other sources that provide information about Maury's role in trying to eradicate slavery from the U.S. by moving all slaves from the slave states of the South to South America? I'm looking at this snippet of information reported in the Washington Business Journal about neighborhood streets in the City of Alexandria, Virginia (which was once part of the District of Columbia) that are named after persons connected with the Confederacy:


 * "Maury Lane: Named for Matthew Fontaine Maury, Chief of Sea Coast, River and Harbor Defenses for the Confederacy, in 1850s attempted to eradicate slavery from the United States entirely by resettling Southern slaves in South America."

According to the article, the linkage of this Alexandria street name has been confirmed by the Office of Historic Alexandria. The only information that I've found online so far about Maury's efforts related to slavery comes from the website for Naval History and Naval Heritage Command:


 * "Efforts to Save the Union and Resignation, 1855-61


 * "Long before 1855, Maury had discerned 'tendencies toward disunion' of the United States and sought to avoid that catastrophe. Deploring slavery as a curse and knowing the Amazon from the 1853 report of its exploration by Lt. William Lewis Herndon, he saw the fertile valley of that mighty and unmatched stream as offering a possible means for saving the Union. Urging an agreement with Brazil to open the Amazon for free navigation for merchant vessels of all nations, he proposed the purchase and transfer of surplus slaves from the South to Brazil, then a slave country, but events were moving too rapidly for the plan to succeed."

The information about Maury's role in trying to resolve the slavery issue to keep the United States from splitting seems significant for inclusion in this article.  → Lwalt ♦ talk 15:07, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Matthew Fontaine Maury Osborne
I think there is an article missing in wikipedia about the astronomer, physicist economist MF Maury Osborne. MaoGo (talk) 08:37, 12 October 2017 (UTC)