Talk:Mau Mau rebellion/Archive 2

Improper Tone
I have no grounds to accuse the facts or references in this article of being biased, but the article itself is written more like an essay than an encyclopaedia entry in parts. Referring to a quote as "moving" or to views as "atavistic and psychopathic" in the main text of the article is totally inappropriate. 138.37.245.232 (talk) 12:14, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Very Biased
Unbelievably biased article towards the Mau Mau and anti British. Poor reflection of Wikipedia. No doubt that it was a brutal conflict but using quotes from editorials in the Guardian is not encyclopedia worthy stuff. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.0.62.33 (talk) 13:14, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. This entire article has an anti-British slant. Apparently the Mau Mau were delightful people innocently fighting for the freedom of their country while treating the indifferent inhabitants with the utmost respect and kindness. The British Authorities, on the other hand, with their draconian and satanic ways butchered, tortured and massacred anyone who stood in their way while summarily executing the peace loving Mau Mau militants at will.

Given the recent BBC article (oh the irony) I'm sure many people will be looking to brush up their knowledge on this period. A great shame Wikipedia is the hegemonic capital of misinformation particularly when it comes to military history and imperialism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.66.205 (talk) 09:37, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Tone Seems Wrong
Forgive me for not having the right words for this. Although the article cites a great many sources, it still feels non-neutral.

There are a great many adjectives and adjectival phrases that seem a far distance away from being verified or even verifiable. Here's a few examples, but there are many more:
 * the dogged British refusal
 * the time-honoured colonial fashion
 * This neat division
 * to fret about how it would look if word about it got out
 * to force yet more
 * hardly stemmed

The language just isn't NPOV. I'll give this a rest for a few days, but if no one demurs I'll get to editing. GeePawHill (talk) 04:20, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Major mistake
Contrary to the popular myth the Mau Mau were not fighting for an independent Kenya. In reality they were fighting to slaughter the other tribes so that they alone would be the dominant tribe in Kenya. The British army thankfully prevented ethnic cleansing from being carried out. (JacksonTyrell (talk) 16:11, 13 May 2012 (UTC))


 * Your suggestion is quite insane. Sadly it cannot therefore be incorporated into the article. ~ Iloveandrea (talk) 19:27, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Hardly, as the Mau Mau were trying to kill the other tribes. Plans had already been drawn up for Kenyan independence in 1953, but the terrorist campaign meant it was delayed until December 1963. (JacksonTyrell (talk) 20:13, 13 May 2012 (UTC))

British actions in Kenya "even after decolonisation"
The subject of this article is not a field in which I have any expertise. I was struck, though, by a phrase in the following sentence:

"The files, known as migrated archives, provided details of controversial British actions in its colonies during the final stages of empire, including during Mau Mau, and even after decolonisation." (emphasis added)

Can someone explain how the British could still have been at work in this way after independence? What does this reference refer to? Nandt1 (talk) 02:51, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Number of sorties and bombs
The section on air power says 900 sorties, 6M bombs. The 6M bombs is clearly an absurdly large number, as each aircraft would have to have dropped 6,000 bombs each on each sortie. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.183.40.166 (talk) 10:48, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Obama link and Churchill bust
The section on the Obama link re: return of the Churchill bust is an outright falsehood as repeatedly debunked in the media and by the whitehouse : http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2012/07/27/fact-check-bust-winston-churchill ... I'm not much of an editor so someone please change this section (Anuoldman (talk) 02:14, 24 August 2012 (UTC)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anuoldman (talk • contribs) 02:12, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

residual British Empire bias
I feel that there are still clearly non-neutral elements here. Much of the article shows both sides, but in places there is still a strong British imperialist/colonialist bias. This is natural, I suppose, as this article is based entirely or almost entirely on English-language sources, thereby giving more weight and prominence to the point of view (and especially the official, public point of view) of the British colonial government and their wealthy, land-holding allies.

A few examples: [all emphases mine]

1) African politics section:


 * "...presented him with a list of demands ranging from the removal of alleged discriminatory legislation..."

This after many paragraphs describing in some detail what could not reasonably be called anything but discriminatory legislation.

The very next line, describing the official's proposed remedy, pictures a possible future "solution" that is still extremely unequal:


 * "Griffith proposed a Legislative Council in which the 30,000 white settlers received 14 representatives, the 100,000 Asians (mostly from South Asia) got six, the 24,000 Arabs one, and the 5,000,000 Africans five representatives to be nominated by the government."

2) British reaction to the uprising section:


 * "...Colonial Secretary Oliver Lyttelton in London received a steady flow of reports from Acting Governor Henry Potter about the escalating seriousness of Mau Mau violence..."

I understand that this reflects the official record of the British view of the time, but I would like to point out that nowhere in the article are the phrases "British government violence", "colonial government violence", "settler violence", "army violence", or "army special forces violence" used, although there is ample evidence in the article, and in newly available government sources, to justify the use of most or all of these phrases. There are two (somewhat indirect) uses of the word "violence" in connection with the colonial government, but never "government violence" or any such formulation. In contrast, there are four uses of the word "violence" in connection with the Kenyan insurgents, including the one noted above, which is specifically formulated as "Mau Mau violence". I acknowledge that this is a small sample size, but nonetheless, this is a 2:1 ratio in the assignment of the term "violence", with only one direct attribution - "Mau Mau violence".

3) First European victim section:

The section title itself strikes me as openly biased toward the British colonial point of view. The implied assignment of this incident as the beginning of the revolt, and so the beginning of the violence, is ridiculous in its arbitrariness! The article makes clear that there had been much resistance, before this point, to what was clearly a brutal occupation, and that the British response to it was even greater harshness:


 * "During the period in which Kenya's interior was being forcibly opened up for British settlement, an officer in the Imperial British East Africa Company asserted, "There is only one way to improve the Wakikuyu [and] that is wipe them out; I should be only too delighted to do so, but we have to depend on them for food supplies", and colonial officers such as Richard Meinertzhagen wrote of how, on occasion, they massacred Kikuyu by the hundred."

But obviously from the British colonial/imperialist point of view, the violence began when the first European was killed.

4) The repeated implication that the Kikuyu population was evenly divided, when the only ones who seem to actively oppose the uprising are the British-allied larger Kikuyu landholders whose motivation could be seen to be solely the preservation of the status quo.  The other cases of Kikuyu who seem, at least superficially, to conform to the British perspective seem to result primarily from threat, intimidation, torture, imprisonment, and an ongoing, aggressively-pursued propaganda campaign by British and British colonial officials.  Assuredly, there were horrible deeds on both sides, but, not surprisingly, British documents and British histories dwell almost entirely with those committed by the Kenyan insurgents.

Let's remember a little history, too. From the article:
 * "In 1894, British MP Sir Charles Dilke observed in the House of Commons: "The only person who has up to the present time benefited from our enterprise in the heart of Africa has been Mr. Hiram Maxim" [maker of the famous British Maxim machine gun, "the weapon most associated with [British] imperial conquest"], though such a state of affairs was in accordance with Sir Arthur Hardinge's insistence that "[t]hese people must learn submission by bullets—it is the only school . . . In Africa to have peace you must first teach obedience and the only person who teaches the lesson properly is the sword." The onslaught in Kenya led Churchill, in 1908, to express concern about how it would look if word got out: "It looks like a butchery . . . Surely it cannot be necessary to go on killing these defenceless people on such an enormous scale.""

5) Military operations section:

Repeated use of bland military jargon for what were often heavy-handed and brutal tactics, many times directed against civilian populations at large. Some examples: "coercion through exemplary force", "restoration of order", "special treatment", "pacification operations", " successful dispersion and containment", "sector-by-sector purge", "temporary barbed-wire enclosures", "remained in detention for screening", "further screening", "repatriation", "screening camps", "improved detention and interrogation regimen". How would the official histories read had it been British or American populations subjected to these euphemistically-described actions? The article contains a number of accounts of brutal torture, mutilation, and extra-legal killings (=murder) committed by colonial "settlers" and their associates, and the newly declassified documents make clear that    British Army, special forces, and British officials are directly implicated as well.

So, horrific acts by Kenyan rebels (or patriotic resistance fighters, from their perspective) are repeatedly described in language seemingly lifted directly from British propaganda pamphlets, yet horrific acts by British, colonial, and their associated forces are most often described in cool, abstract military jargon or polite, indirect diplomatic language.

In terms of equivalency: Kenyan insurgent execution of suspected or known collaborators is repeatedly described in horrific, propagandistic terms, but hangings of suspected or known insurgents, or even supporters, are referred to in coolly-detached language, as a sort of administrative measure. Depending on the particular circumstances, hanging can mean instant neck-breaking or it can mean slow strangulation. Admittedly, the insurgents are reported to have then mutilated the already dead bodies in a symbolic act, but note the following, committed against a living person by the British colonial side:
 * "One settler with the Kenya Police Reserve's Special Branch described an interrogation of a Mau Mau suspect: "By the time I cut his balls off he had no ears, and his eyeball, the right one, I think, was hanging out of its socket. Too bad, he died before we got much out of him.""

6) The bands of insurgents operating from the forests are repeatedly referred to as "gangs", an obviously non-neutral usage.

To summarise, the article does, in general, contain both major perspectives, but, because of the predominance of official, publicly-available British paperwork, and possibly because of the European and even British Empire roots of most writers on English-language Wikipedia, there is still a skewed perspective on this subject, in spite of what is obviously much work by dedicated Wikipedians attempting to fairly represent all perspectives.

Heavenlyblue (talk) 00:28, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for being so thorough in your criticism, Heavenlyblue. I wish there were a "Talk" page about the "Talk" page so we could discuss the absurd amount of mythical nonsense written here by 'unsigned' who is obviously a few, or maybe just one, British neo-loyalist. The entire wiki article is so strange in that the prose is entirely framing the conflict as some kind of sectarian civil war, instigated by the Mau Mau, while at the same time using quotes of British officers that are horrific in the actions that they freely admit to performing. This is bizarre. Hmmm, anything to do with the ongoing legal battle between the Mau Mau survivors and the British government, (who still claim that the atrocities quoted here did not actually occur)? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7btln8IB4rQ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.37.84.8 (talk) 07:37, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Too much Reliance on Caroline Elkins
Shscoulsdon (talk) 20:13, 28 August 2012 (UTC) The first contribution "Tone Seems Wrong" seems to hit the nail on the head. Although the article has a fairly impressive bibliography of almost 50 sources and at least tries to aim for balance, it comes out as non-neutral. After puzzling about this, I would suggest this is because it uses a single work by a single writer, Caroline Elkins far more than any other source. I counted Elkins being cited 56 times out of a total of 228 citations. The next most common person cited, David Anderson, is mentioned 30 times, but this covers four studies over almost 20 years. I have two concerns about Caroline Elkins.

Firstly, at the time her book was published, she had at most 10 years of Kenyan Studies behind her, almost entirely limited to a study of the detention camps. David Anderson had about 20 years of experience of Kenya, and John Lonsdale (another source) over 40 year: both had covered a wide range of issue including (in the case Lonsdale) joint authorship of "Mau Mau From Below" and "Mau Mau & Nationhood: Arms, Authority & Narration", neither of which is cited. Although I can understand Elkins being quoted extensively in the section on Detention, I cannot see why the specialised work of a comparative novice is used as a source on African Labourer Categories, African Politics or British Reaction and Military Operations.

Secondly, Caroline Elkins' book is highly controversial. However valid some or even much of what she says is, no-one could accuse her of impartiality; her own Harvard page lists one of her specializations as "British colonial violence in the 20th century", suggesting a degree of presumption if not prejudice. Wikipedia's own article on Elkins show that her views have not gained uncritical acceptance amongst academic historians. Its Talk section shows she has critics and may claim adherents, but she has not created any sort of consensus.

The problem this raises is that most of the other sources are more or less impartial so by using Elkins extensively an appearance of bias may be created. In part, this is because most of the times her work is used it is quoted first and objections to it second, giving her a spurious primacy. In part, it is because if all sources bar one are broadly impartial but a much-used one is not, this last skews the whole.

"The problem this raises is that most of the other sources are more or less impartial..."

The reasons that this statement is false, and therefore invalidates the entire argument that comes before it, is that:


 * 1. David Anderson is British
 * 2. Bruce Berman is Canadian (i.e. pseudo-British)
 * 3. Robert Eatman is American
 * 4. David French is British
 * 5. Ewart Scott Grogan is British
 * 6. William Ormsby-Gore is British
 * ... British
 * ... British
 * ... British
 * etc.

So we have a pageant of white, Anglo/Western men filling out the details of a story that took place in Africa, in a community under colonial occupation by violent white men. To label that scholarly cadre "more or less impartial" you would either have to be a middle-aged (40+) white guy or a young, strapping neo-nazi ( I mean white "nationalist" ). 50.37.84.8 (talk) 08:01, 11 June 2013 (UTC):REV


 * Excellent response, talk. Ouch. 89.101.41.216 (talk) 14:04, 28 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Ouch? I don't think so. It was a long response, but it can be dismissed almost in its entirety: let us remind ourselves of that thing called ad hominem. Should German historians not write about the Holocaust? I do my best to keep the British-sympathising IPs at bay. The article needs expansion in some areas, consolidation in others, but the broad outline is on the right track. "..." is a British scholar? Perhaps by "..." you meant Bethwell Ogot and the rest of them who are not British? "Canadian (i.e. pseudo-British)"—now you've descended into the absolutely absurd. I'm sure French-speaking Canadians would appreciate being called "pseudo-British". Anyway, as I said, virtually the entire response can be dismissed as ad hominem. You wasted a lot of time typing that lot out. LudicrousTripe (talk) 20:30, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Very brave of 50.37.84.8|50.37.84.8 to identify yourself. Very clever of you to spot that scholars are not impartial (like, I suppose you are). Very kind of you to condescend to give us mere mortals a share of your clever insights. How very, very apposite of you to reply to a post about Caroline Elkins without so much as mentioning her. Shscoulsdon (talk) 20:09, 20 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Again, excellent response. I would add colonial revisionism to the list. There are a lot of articles on Africa that have a strong colonist/South African bias. For example the article on the Bantu Migration. MrSativa (talk) 03:37, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Oxford Illustrated History of the Army
This is an unacceptable source, and I do not know why it is being used. The military aspects to the conflict have been covered in far more detail in recent publications already cited in the article; there is no need for such a vague source of information to be used.

This bit about Mau Mau delaying decolonisation... Well, you can add it of you can cite a source. That's the way Wikipedia works. No RS to back it up, it doesn't make the cut. It sounds utterly bizarre, particularly as the lede cites an RS that says the rebellion set the stage for decolonisation!

Anyway, the fact remains that a source is needed. LudicrousTripe (talk) 16:41, 23 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I expect the updated version of the Oxford Illustrated History of the British army has the same information as the 1994 edition. In any case plans for Kenya's independence had already been drawn up by Westminster prior to the uprising in 1951. The fact is that after World War II the UK was no longer a superpower and it could not afford to hold onto overseas possessions. Even Churchill in 1953 drew up plans for the independence of colonies in the Far East, while also agreeing to the Suez Canal Base Agreement in October 1954. (92.7.13.155 (talk) 17:40, 23 April 2013 (UTC))

Bombing
I am going to try and find an e-mail address for this Chappell fellow and discover where his mistake is: the number of sorties or the number of bombs. Until then, and assuming a typo is the error, I believe the mistake more likely with the number of sorties than the number of bombs. Hence I left number of bombs rather than sorties in the article. See Chappell's article to understand my reasoning, which I will be happy to explain if you don't. LudicrousTripe (talk) 01:46, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

92.7.14.173 and Black-majority rule
Hello, 92.7.14.173! I feel you are misunderstanding Lonsdale's point. He is addressing the issue of WHY the British left Kenya to Black-majority rule (BMR)—in part, thanks to Mau Mau. That is all he is saying, and so coming back with "BMR was guaranteed once the British left" elides the issue: WHY did the British choose BMR? That is what Lonsdale is gunning for when he credits Mau Mau. Am I making my thinking clearer? I'd be happy to expound on the development of British thinking regarding post-colonial Kenya, if you wish? LudicrousTripe (talk) 14:49, 10 May 2013 (UTC)


 * The British government had already agreed in 1953 that Kenya would be made independent, along with the Crown Colonies in the Far East. Black majority rule was assured because after World War II the UK was no longer a superpower and could not afford to hold onto overseas territories (which in any case no longer needed protection in the new post-war era). (92.7.14.173 (talk) 16:34, 10 May 2013 (UTC))
 * any claims or implications of "BMR was guaranteed" cannot be entered into the article without the inclusion of a reliably published source that explicitly makes such claims. We cannot make them nor imply them in the article based on our interpretations of what we think was "guaranteed" to happen.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  16:46, 10 May 2013 (UTC)


 * The article seems to have one reliable source that states the opposite to what you are claiming, Wasserman's study published by Cambridge University Press, summarised in the Legacy section: "Though Mau Mau was effectively crushed by 1956, it was not until the First Lancaster House Conference, in January 1960, that African majority rule was established and the period of colonial transition to independence initiated. Before the conference, it was anticipated by both African and European leaders that Kenya was set for a European-dominated multi-racial government." LudicrousTripe (talk) 17:30, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Britain strongly supported black majority rule in Kenya under Jomo Kenyatta, just as the UK supported black majority rule for South Africa. (92.7.14.173 (talk) 17:03, 10 May 2013 (UTC))
 * There is nothing "wrong" with what you are saying, but you do need some sources to back it up. That is all I am after. Perhaps you are unaware how Wikpedia works—given that you are an IP address, perhaps you are new to Wikpedia—but here the goal is to avoid The Truth. If you have some reliable sources to back up what you are saying, we can, of course, add them into the article. Also chopping out stuff you disagree with, however strongly, is not the way to go. LudicrousTripe (talk) 17:08, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
 * We can and should include all major mainstream views and interpretations, but the inclusion of content must be based on reliably published materials and not just what we "personally know".
 * news.google.com * and books.google.com * and particularly scholar.google.com can be good starting points for finding reliable sources (but not a plain google search). (*however be wary of the blogs at google news, and we cannot use Icon Press, Books LLC and Hephaestus Press (wikipedia mirrors) iUniverse, Lulu, Xlibris (self publishers) at google books)-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  17:20, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

92.7.xxx is banned HarveyCarter
Incorrigibly fractious User:HarveyCarter got banned, but he socks using 92.7.x.x IPs. Please delete his additions on sight, per WP:DENY. Binksternet (talk) 13:56, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Kenyatta as anti-Mau Mau leader
This is such transparent rubbish I am beginning to doubt the sincerity of your motives. Are you here just to play silly games, IP 92.? The British had him doing hard labour on the bribed conviction of being a Mau Mau leader, how can you seriously propose that he was a leader of the anti-Mau Mau effort? How can anyone suggest this with a straight face? LudicrousTripe (talk) 18:12, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Etymology and Muindi Mbingu
Blogger Martin Masai writes in "Just who was Muindi Mbingu?":
 * Accounts indicate that during the meeting [in 1938], when asked what he wanted done to his people, [Samuel Muindi Mbingu] responded in the local Kamba language — "Twenda kwikala ta maau mau maitu, tuithye ngombe to Maau mau maitu, nundu nthi ino ni ya maau mau maitu." (We want to live like our grandfathers, keep cattle like our grandfathers, for the land we live on is our grandfathers'.) The reference to Maa umau (our grandfathers) struck a familiar tune to the colonialists and they swiftly accused him of being the founder of “Mau Mau uprising" — the Mau Mau is accredited to this brave nationalist.

Is this etymology plausible enough to be included in the article? More likely, has it conclusively been debunked anywhere? The major plausibility problem with it, in my un-expert eyes, is that this story takes place in 1938, long before the beginning of Mau Mau. Also, Mau Mau was Kikuyu-dominated, yes? so it would be odd if they adopted a Kamba phrase as their slogan. (Google tells me that the Kikuyu word for "grandfather" is guka.) —Quuxplusone (talk) 22:33, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Liberal Propaganda (formerly Marxist propaganda)
'A feature of all settler societies during the colonial period was the ability of European settlers to obtain for themselves a disproportionate share in land ownership.'

It is reasonable to assess the behavior of both sides after a 60-year interval. But we don't need a lecture on the evils of imperialism. Valetude (talk) 08:10, 7 June 2013 (UTC)


 * It is simply a statement of fact, not a lecture. Why did you opt to smear it with Marxist propaganda instead of liberal propaganda? How would liberal propaganda have looked? LudicrousTripe (talk) 19:15, 7 June 2013 (UTC)


 * "'A feature of all settler societies during the colonial period was the ability of European settlers to obtain for themselves a disproportionate share in land ownership.'" This is merely a statement of fact, and it is an issue in the politics and economics of Namibia, South Africa, Botswana, and other countries as well as Kenya. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MrSativa (talk • contribs) 03:47, 13 December 2013 (UTC)


 * There's no real advantage to calling a reference to land ownership "liberal propaganda" as opposed to "Marxist propaganda," as Marx's theories about capital included land as a means of production.


 * I'd even dispute the term "propaganda" in this context - the British pretty clearly moved into Kenya and kicked native Kenyans off of land their families had owned for generations. The internecine violence among the Kikuyu and the violence against Europeans and Asians by the Mau Mau was terrible (as was the retaliation by the colonial government and the British armed forces), but it was pretty clearly a case in which people were taking their land back.  You can't paint colonialism up pretty, guys. loupgarous (talk) 23:13, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
 * "the British pretty clearly moved into Kenya and kicked native Kenyans off of land their families had owned for generations" Interesting and what is the evidence for that statement?--41.151.235.106 (talk) 22:02, 7 November 2014 (UTC)


 * The entire definition of a "settler colony" is that the colonizers indeed possess large tracts of land from the native populations. I am very curious to know what the initial author of this post imagined a "non-propagandist" narrative could be, given the wealth of records that indicate that British landholders were in fact the biggest landholders in pre-independence Kenya. I would also question the pursuit of an "objective" knowledge. No knowledge is capable of being 'neutral' every truth claim involves making decisions (indeed, political decisions) about what gets included and what does not. Usually, the side with more power is able to hold up the myth of such a neutrality. Skw27 (talk) 04:32, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Well-informed Editor Required
The pendulum has swung. Reading through all the posts, I noticed something very interesting. Many of the earlier ones accuse the article of a strong bias toward British colonialism, while most of the later ones condemn it for being anti-British. Unless the posters read different sections of the article, obviously a great deal of editing was done in the interim; far too much, in my view, because it is unacceptably anti-British now. A wise and well-informed editor is needed to roll back some of the changes and place the article off-limits to future editing. Treplag (talk) 17:51, 2 April 2014 (UTC)Treplag


 * Treplag, just how is this article unacceptably anti-British? Are the statements about British acts in Kenya unsourced? Is there original research?  Weasel-wording?  I'm not being rhetorical with these questions - if there are valid concerns with the article content, that's one thing.


 * However, colonialism was only good for the colonizers, by and large. Any objective account of this episode in history must, if it is to be acceptably objective by our standards, must tell the truth without regard to the feelings of either side in the conflict.  While I'm as Anglophile as the next American, I also recognize that periods in American and British history involved brutal acts toward people on lands our peoples decided to take for their own, and any objective narration of these episodes in our nations' history will include telling some ugly truths.


 * Some of the statements about "settlers" ought to be revisited to determine whether or not the term's being used in an emotionally-loaded manner WP:TERRORIST, because in African English, "settler" seems to carry some emotional weight - but it does so for some very good reasons - from the standpoint of people whose ancestors were in Africa (or America) before the settlers arrived. This article is about an ugly period in history, and having used it for research in something else I was writing, I was struck by how informative it was and how completely it informed the reader of what happened in Kenya during the uprising and afterward.


 * I think it'd be nice if before we started editing, we reached a consensus over whether changes are needed and whether anyone who wants to make these changes can defend the need for changes logically. It would be odd if this article didn't come off as anti-British in some ways, because it is a complete account of a time and place where just about every repressive act used to subdue people was used.  The catalogue of "war crimes" is depressingly thorough.


 * Please come up with some examples from the article (quoted text from the article, please) of how you feel this article is "unacceptably anti-British," and we can move on from there. loupgarous (talk) 23:45, 4 September 2014 (UTC)


 * The fact is that everybody was being unacceptably over-British !
 * The young Queen was to be impressed and everybody was impressed with the young Queen, very much so.
 * There was, in fact, terror that part of the young Queen's Empire would go.
 * That force, yet noble in its intent of historical Empirical continuance, created blind and abberative behaviour which made, indeed, toward excess. --Laurencebeck (talk) 00:12, 5 September 2014 (UTC)


 * I notice none of these quotes are in the present article. And I see - now - that Treplag's post is dated April of this year.  So apparently the problem was addressed.  I apologize for any offense I may have committed, I sincerely misunderstood the article's current status. It's a great article, and if everyone's content with it after the objectionable changes were deleted, perhaps we ought to talk to someone about removing the request for help at the head of the article.


 * As it is, editors reading the article are going to think (in the absence of any recorded consensus in the talk page) that Wikipedia's still calling for help in making the article more objective. The only changes I'd make are to fix some very minor issues with correct English diction.  There are words like "metropole" which I don't think are proper English usage (I invite anyone who thinks different to correct me).  But as far as content's concerned, it's a very good, solid article and doesn't contain detectable bias at this point.  Congratulations! loupgarous (talk) 00:27, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

This article reads like propaganda - Pov phraseaology abounds: " Not for the first time,[76] the British instead relied on the purported insights of the ethnopsychiatrist; with Mau Mau, it would fall to Dr. John Colin Carothers to perform the desired analysis." I corrected some of it, but the majority remains. Zezen (talk) 02:01, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Bias and misattributed sources
This article seems to suffer from heavy bias. I was surprised by the comment that the British ran a show trial as though often Brutal the British are famed for their adherence to the rule of law and the independence of their judiciary. To find more I went to the cited reference, but nothing in the news article cited related to anything stated in the paragraph. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.196.16.129 (talk) 16:00, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

Is this account of Kenyan history considered as really credible on Wikipedia? Oh my goodness.
Is this account of Kenyan history considered as credible? I learned more truth from my undergraduate college education than I did from this Wikipedia account of this episode in Kenyan history; and there is so much more to these people's history than this one episode. Oh my, I was shocked that Wikipedia allows this account of history to be the one that people from all around the world who are learning about Kenyan history have to actually read and believe is true. lol. This is just fascinating to me as a history nerd. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:E:C00:6C2:9156:B2A:46FF:CA29 (talk) 06:06, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Dear History Nerd, It fair takes your breath away, doesn't it? Not just this article but tens of thousands of Wikipedia pages, where the anger and accusations rage like forest fire, and the truth makes no appearance. Makes you wonder about all written history, doesn't it? Postmodern theory declares that all writing is merely opinion, and therefore all writings are equal. I don't think so. I believe truth is possible and obtainable but that truth will always be objectionable to partisan parties. They will call it a lie if they dislike what actually occurred. History is about what happened. Moral judgements about those events belong elsewhere 121.44.165.78 (talk) 08:26, 22 July 2015 (UTC).
 * If neither of you like what's being written, here or elsewhere on Wikipedia, why don't you create an account and fix it? Better than just whinging about it.  IgnorantArmies  (talk)  16:07, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Doesn't sound to me like they're "whinging" about it. Wikipedia is KNOWN for biased reporting and it would appear if you try to change it from within, you get into edit wars with people that go nowhere. I'm amazed you guys have the nerve to ask the public for money when you can't be relied on to give an honest account of any political event. Someone always gets a hold of the article and completely turns it into their personal soapbox. I came here to read about the Mau Mau Uprising after I watched the movie called "The First Grader". However, this article reads like it was written by someone who has a definite pro-Mau-Mau axe to grind and I'd never read anything about the subject before I came here. If Wikipedia really wants to "serve the public" without POV reporting then the editors need to start winnowing out people who join their ranks just spread obvious propaganda on their pages. But this doesn't seems to happen. Why? Laziness maybe; or political correctness which amounts to the same thing. But until you collectively get your act together, I suggest you quit pan-handling for money you haven't earned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.51.145.103 (talk) 09:16, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia editors are unpaid volunteers, none of the money from donation drives goes to editors. The only laziness is from people like you, who complain and whinge about the content of articles, but aren't willing to lift a finger to improve them. If the article's so bad, create an account and do something about it.  IgnorantArmies  (talk)  09:43, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Dear IgnorantArmies: Your handle really fits your style and you seem to be about par for the course regarding the rudeness and arrogance of Wikipedia editors. Why in hell would anyone want to become an editor and then have to deal with someone like yourself who (a) accuses people who take exception to the way a Wikipedia article is written of ""whingeing" and (b) has trouble spelling the word "whining". As the above commentator noted and I agree, the editors of Wikipedia get bogged down in edit wars, name-calling (as you so aptly demonstrate)and generally take over an article using it for their obnoxious ends. Who cares whether you're paid or not. Why would anyone donate money or time to an entity like Wikipedia when the articles are written by editors like yourself with an obvious agenda and obnoxious style? LOL. Your childish answer just exemplifies who runs the show and is an editor at Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.51.145.103 (talk) 05:25, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Aw, I'm so sorry that you feel that way :( If this is all a bit much for you, maybe you could see if your local library has books on Kenyan history?  IgnorantArmies  (talk)  07:49, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
 * And by the way, it's perfectly fine if your vocabulary doesn't include a big word like "whinge" (we can't all be William Shakespeare), but you run the risk of making yourself look silly if you accuse other people of making spelling mistakes ;). If there's a word you're unfamiliar with, you can always look it up in the dictionary – if you didn't know, that's a book like an encyclopedia, but all about words :).  IgnorantArmies  (talk)  07:55, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
 * This is a helpful article. those not sure should read books by the Harvard professor called 'Britains Gulags in Kenya' and Histories of the Hanged by David Anderson of Oxford University. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.2.39.118 (talk) 14:12, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

Moving goalposts
Tim, why do you describe the category you removed as incorrect? Gob Lofa (talk) 19:18, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
 * The real question is why you added it. Tim! (talk) 09:33, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
 * That ought to be obvious from the source. Gob Lofa (talk) 15:36, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

Merge Capture of General China
Capture of General China is a two sentence article, describing one incident of relatively minor overall significance. It can be easily merged into this article. Bad Dryer (talk) 19:11, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Women
The section on "women in the rebellion" reads like a screed right out of Feminist Studies Central. "The female body would continue to carry powerful political significance through the independence movement." Ridiculous! Orthotox (talk) 17:59, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

Another example that English Wikipedia is hopelessly euro-centric
I think it's a massive tragedy that 99% of the "credible sources" in this Mau Mau article are of European descent. And it shows.

This Mau Mau article even makes the amusing conclusion that "the conflict is now often regarded in academic circles as an intra-Kikuyu civil war" which is clearly a poor attempt at minimizing European culpability ("often" according to who? what are the demographics of the scholars who view it that way? when did someone do an opinion poll of the Kikuyu people to conclude this?). Predictably, the sources of that claim are persons of European descent.

105.161.188.160 (talk) 22:09, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

War Crimes Mombasa Dwarf Massacre
This section seems entirely fabricated. There is no other mention of a dwarf population in Mombasa and the only source cited makes no mention of one on the page referenced nor anywhere else in the work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Southernmen (talk • contribs) 08:51, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Highly biased article - how did this pass muster?
It is shocking and offensive to me that this article is written the way it is. Isn't Wikipedia's purpose to inform, or is it to bias unsuspecting readers? Barely any mention of the atrocities committed against the settlers, yet there is an inordinate and rambling narrative of the injustices of the British. Typical for those obsessed with revisionist history.

The chart lists 56 settlers killed, yet glosses over all but 4. People died at the hands of the Mau Mau, and it is dishonorable to them to have an article that is so painfully biased. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ladam11 (talk • contribs) 04:02, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

External links modified (January 2018)
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Two end dates?
The first sentence puts it at 1964, but in the infobox, its 1964.--Adûnâi (talk) 17:40, 19 February 2018 (UTC)


 * I changed it to 1960 but it would be good to get something more definitive on the end date. 2620:0:690:7822:D572:5C84:22C2:4E55 (talk) 00:21, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

Concentration camps
Is it true the British used concentration camps in Kenya? (31.50.130.247 (talk) 15:36, 5 March 2018 (UTC))

= BBC is running a well detailed article on MauMau today --

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-49363653

NPOV?
The parentheticals in the following section seems to be of questionably-neutral view, to me:

"By the mid-1960s, the view of Mau Mau as simply irrational activists was being challenged by memoirs of former members and leaders that portrayed Mau Mau as an essential, if radical, component of African nationalism in Kenya (of course this is denying the atrocities they committed against fellow tribesmen just to settle a score including the killing of school children), and by academic studies that analysed the movement as a modern and nationalist response to the unfairness and oppression of colonial domination (though such studies deliberately downplayed the specifically Kikuyu nature of the movement)."

167.15.253.45 (talk) 18:13, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

expresses opinions and not neutral
The article expresses opinions and uses inflammatory language, presenting a partisan view of events rather than a neutral appraisal or history. e.g. "... protesting a destocking policy that was being ruthlessly implemented..."; "...the kikuyus who pick up the clarion call to win their dispossessed land back...."; "...The British, meanwhile, applied the strategy and tactics they developed in suppressing the Malayan Emergency..."

There is a lot of surmise stated as fact based upon references to biased or subjective quotes. e.g. "...and caused at least 11,000 deaths among the Mau Mau and other forces, with some estimates an order of magnitude higher.[18]..." The reference here is to a BBC documentary, which says: ''.The number killed in the uprising is a subject of much controversy. Officially the number of Mau Mau and other rebels killed was 11,000, including 1,090 convicts hanged by the British administration. Just 32 white settlers were killed in the eight years of emergency. However, unofficial figures suggest a much larger number were killed in the counter-insurgency campaign. The Kenya Human Rights Commission has said 90,000 Kenyans were executed, tortured or maimed during the crackdown, and 160,000 were detained in appalling conditions. David Anderson, professor of African Politics at Oxford University, says he estimates the death toll in the conflict to have been as high as 25,000...'' The BBC does not state that any of these are actual figures, but the opinions of involved parties. Prof Anderson is also quoted as saying: "...Basically you could get away with murder - it was systematic..." This is inflammatory and partisan. There is no basis for the quote "...an order of magnitude higher...", as this would intimate numbers of 110,000. The article constantly expresses anti-British views and propaganda, generalising and perpetuating preconceived opinions.Pdadme (talk) 17:11, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

The Guardian cannot be considered a reputable primary source.
Reference 216 directly references an opinion piece from the Guardian newspaper. This is not a primary source for the claim of 'significant murders'. Mackemsniper (talk) 13:42, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

I removed it because a) everything in a Wikipedia article should be significant, or it shouldn't be included, and b) "significant" is ambiguous and empty -- was the number of murders significantly high or significantly low? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.78.225.197 (talk) 07:15, 9 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Care needs to be taken with opinions in British news media. Scholarship would be better.--Chuka Chief (talk) 15:36, 9 June 2020 (UTC)