Talk:Mavro Orbin/Archive 1

user:Zmaj's reverts and edit war
The above user has been warned to avoid to impose POVs, with edit war (see ). He has answered in a offensive way, providing no answers for his statments. Many of his deletions were several times discussed in other articles, if not in Wikipedia's rules--Giovanni Giove 21:22, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * You still haven't explained your edits to this article, which I consider original research since Orbini is considered Croatian by most sources. If you don't believe me, check Google. --Zmaj 21:34, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It is considered Croatian by Croatia-related sources. I do not want to repeat the usual speechs. Furthermore there are other statements you have deleted with your revert. It's the time to finish this story!--Giovanni Giove 21:46, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Pan-Slavism ideologist actually Italian?
DIREKTOR ( TALK ) 15:13, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It is outright stupid to say that one of the first and primary ideologists of Pan-Slavism in the Balkans was an Italian (of all things), or Latin Dalmatian, since they were extinct for centuries. The man is a Slav, or considered himself one (wich is enough). And Slavs from Ragusa (Dubrovnik) are in modern Historiography considered Croats.
 * The name Dubrovnik is not contemporary and must me mentioned by the name of Ragusa.
 * Giove, let me elighten you on one thing: "Illyric" language is actually Slavic (considered in this case early Croatian). This is the cause for the mixup: there was a theory among South Slavic thinkers in the first half of the 19th century that South Slavs are actually Illyrians. This was, of course, later disproved. The real Illyric language is actually much closer to Albanian, and "Zrcalo duhovno" is Slavic (in modern Historiography considered Croatian because it's from Dubrovnik).
 * It was not hard to foresee the arrive of the "Greater Croatian Army". Cool! Now Direktor, start to impose your POV with edit war, and force this page to be blocked to the "proper edit", according to your abits.--Giovanni Giove 17:02, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

The man is a Slav Giove. He considered himself one. "Illyrian" = South Slavic. If you INSIST on insulting me and editing without dicussion, you will be reverted. Please read my posts and try to remain civil, if I'm part of the "Greater Croatian Army", then you are most certainly part of the "Greater Italian Army". DIREKTOR ( TALK ) 13:34, 21 September 2007 (UTC) (BTW, its: "arrival" and "habits".)
 * Great Mon General, the war is started! You did your 2nd revert!!! R U ready for the block??... the 4th revert will be yours or will you call Zenanarh and Kubura to avoid the block? Is Orbini "Illyrian" it's ok for me: just source the claim. Do I insult you?:-) You are so thender, sweety. Cheers!--Giovanni Giove 14:16, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Moron... -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 22:39, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Proper name
Just compare Mauro Orbini and Mavro Orbini in Google.--Giovanni Giove 14:18, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Ethnicity of the population of the Republic of Ragusa
If I may ask, Giove, I know we do not have censi and that you probably do not know, but in your esteemed personal oppinion, wich ethnicity formed the majority in the Republic of Ragusa (during the 17th century) if it was not Slavs? DIREKTOR ( TALK ) 14:42, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
 * ... maybe the Ragusans?! Cheers!--Giovanni Giove 16:36, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Ragusan is not ethnicity. Giove you constantly show the highest level of ignorance in general. Zenanarh 07:44, 22 September 2007 (UTC) For those who doesn't know: In Dubrovnik there's a historical archive of original documents and writings. And a part of that archive with papers written in Croatian language and Western (Croatian) Cyrrilic alphabet is huge - this material makes "8 kilometers long line of papers" as scientists usually describe the amount of it. Documents used for local purposes in Dubrovnik Republic were never written in Venetian or Italian language. Zenanarh 08:42, 22 September 2007 (UTC) You are right, they were written in serbian cyrrilic. Don't use ustasha terminology because western cyrrilic doesn't exist, it's SERBIAN! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vucicevic5 (talk • contribs) 08:17, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Giove's "editing"
1) The man is a Slav (he obviously considered himself one). As for the language he wrote in, he used both Slavic and Italian. 2) There is no controversy concerning the ethnicity of the majority population of the Republic of Ragusa. While the Gospars' (noblemen) ethnicity and the "official" language may be discussed, it is well documented and known that Slavs formed the majority in the Republic of Ragusa. Giove, you lost the RfC on this in the Republic of Ragusa article, having failed to produce any evidence WHATSOEVER that the said republic was in any way Italian (both language and ethnicity). DIREKTOR ( TALK ) 15:15, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Illyric and "South Slav"
Dear all, do I have to remind you that in the documents of old Republic of Venice, the term "Illyric" meant "Croat". In fact, in La Serenissima's proclamations to people, that were bilingual, the term "illirica" had translation as "hrvatski, ilirski, slovinski". Also, please read the section on the talk page of Republic of Dubrovnik, where I gave you the explanation and sources and references regarding the meaning "Illyric language"=Croat language. Kubura 06:59, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Here I repost things already posted on Talk:Republic of Dubrovnik/Archive 1. Now, to some links. Here is a link to a library of Croatian Academy of Sciences and Arts. This link shows a picture of first pages of a book named "Zarcalo dvhovno od pocetka i sfarhe xivota coviecanskoga : razdieglieno, i razreyeno u petnaes razgovora, a u stoo, i pedeset dubbia, alliti sumgna poglavitieh. Vcignenieh meyu mesctrom, i gnegoviem vcenijkom. / Istomaceno iz yezikka italianskoga u dubrovacki po D. Mauru Orbinu Dubrovcaninu Opattu od S. Marie od Backe, od Reda Sfetoga Benedikta. ". Printed in Venice, in 1621. These and  are pages from the edition from 1703. Here are the catalogue search results,. The important part is where it states "istomaceno iz jezika italijanskoga u dubrovacki" (translated from the Italian language into Dubrovnik's language), translated by the Dubrovnikan (not "Ragusan") D.Mauro Orbin. Dubrovnikan Franciscan Joakim Stulić in his work "Lexicon latino-italico-illyricum", printed in 1801 in Buda, gives this explanation of the term "illyrice": "Slovinski, harvatski, hrovatski, horvatski ". Nowhere any "Serbo-", just Croatian. The "Lexicon latinum" of the Jesuit Andrija Jambrešić printed in 1742 has the annex: Index Illyrico sive croatico — latinus". The Archbishop of Split Stipan Cosmi declares new orders for its parishes in 1688 in Latin and in Croatian, in the was that he has translated the term "illyricus"  with the term "hrvatski" (idiomo Illyrico - harvaskoga izgovora; clero Illyrico - klera harvaskoga ). See the first page . The link is from HAZU. A link to the library of Faculty of Philosophy in Zagreb. Search result . Book of the author Jakov Mikalja. Title is Blago jezika slovinskoga illi Slovnik : u komu izgorarajuse rjeci slovinske latinski i diacki = Thesaurus linguae Illyricae sive Dictionarium Illyricum : in quo verba Illyrica Italice et Latine redduntur / labore p. Jacobi Micalia ; Grammatika talianska u kratko ili Kratak nauk za naucitti latinski jezik / koga slovinski upisa otac Jacov Mikaglja ... Impresum: Laureti : apud Paulum et Io. Baptistam Seraphinum, 1649 ''. In that grammar/dictionary, under the entry " Hrvat, Hervat " says " Hrvat, Hervat = Illyricus, Croata ". Work of Rajmund Džamanjić, Dominican from Dubrovnik republic. A link from HAZU library. Search result. Title page. ''Nauk za piisati dobro latinskiema slovima rieci yezika slovinskoga koyiemse Dubrovcani, i sva Dalmatia kakko  vlasctitiem svoyiem yezikom sluzcij . / Po M. P. Ozu F. Raymundu Giamagniku Dubrovcaninu od Reda S. Dominica. - In Venetia : Appresso Marco Ginammi, 1639''. The work from 1639 speaks about Dubrovcani, not Ragusini. It says that "How to write good in Latin letters the words from Croatian ("slovinski" is one of synonyms of Croatian, see the section above, e.g., note that "linguae Illyricae sive Croatice" by Cosmi, and "linguae Illyricae.../...slovinski" by Mikalja)," in which  Dubrovnik, and whole Dalmatia , use as their own proper language ". With double confirmation. "Vlastitim"=own. "svojim"="own proper" ("svoj" is a reflexive possesive pronoun). This should help. Kubura (talk) 10:15, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Many greaterserbianist vandals here don't know or don't want to know, that among Serbs, any idea of calling their language as Illyrian was strictly rejected. Kubura (talk) 08:05, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Illyrian
Illyrian also meant Serbian, and yes in the Renaissance too. Anti-Note (talk) 19:03, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Really? Some source? Your imagination is not enough! This is encyclopedia... Zenanarh (talk) 12:06, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The Serbian language was quite often referred to as "Illyrian". Take Đorđe Branković and his "Illyrian Lands" (which meant "Serbian lands") as a source Anti-Note (talk) 22:31, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
 * This is true, Zen, "Illyrian" meant "Yugoslav" or "Serbo-Croatian". Perhaps that would be the best translation. Serbs and Croats were basically known as "Illyrians". Ljudevit Gaj and others advocated a union with the other Illyrians, the Serbs. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 18:08, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Direktor, Mauro Orbini lived during Renaissance, in the same time "Illyrian" was used only for Croatian language, as far as I know. Actually it was used also for Albanian, but not Serbian or in Serbia. In 19th century there was well known nationalistic movement, Illyrian movement, started in Croatian and Slovenian literal circles and then spread to Serbia too, since it was actually pan-Slavistic movement. BTW it was the least accepted by Serbian writters. But it doesn't matter. So in 19th centura Serbia was also a part of "Illyrian lands". Now, I want to see which source has noted Serbian language as Illyrian during Mauro Orbini's lifetime! We are discussing about the name of language in 16th century, not about the lands in 19th! We are discussing about language (its name) which standardized form in 19th century got the name "Croatian language". Zenanarh (talk) 19:11, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

BTW read the section above. Anti-note you cannot mix historical names, idioms, etc and different historical moments or ages, just to produce some artificial context. If you do, then it would be much more clever to relate Serbia to Thracians than to Illyrians ;) Zenanarh (talk) 00:26, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh, didn't read the above section... I don't know much about the meaning of "Illyran" during the 16th century. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 05:08, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Since when is 1645 19th century and NOT renaissance??? Anti-Note (talk) 22:38, 27 March 2008 (UTC)


 * ??? What? Can you read English? Can you understand it? Zenanarh (talk) 22:47, 27 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I think you're the one who doesn't understand when Djordje Brankovic lived! Anti-Note (talk) 13:26, 28 March 2008 (UTC)


 * No. You are mixing different concepts which you don't understand or you don't want to understand. See Illyrians article "Later usage of the term" section. Dj. Branković (17th century) only had idea of creating a state - Illyria - with him on the throne since he was a legal descendent of the Serbian despots. Illyria - reffering to Illyricum, a huge Roman province, but that's all. He was just a zealot with ideas, it was not official or general usage of the term. Actually Serbs and Serbia were not connected to the term Illyric or Illyrian in those ages.
 * Once again, we are discussing about language - Illyric language - as it was officially used for Croatian language in Late Medieval and Renaissance. The oldest missal written in angular or Croatian Glagolithic alphabet and in Croatian Chakavian dialect was "Illirico Borgiano"! Zenanarh (talk) 14:00, 29 March 2008 (UTC)


 * This is true Anti-Note, Serbs too bore the Illyrian name, but this refers to the language, and not something in general. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 15:38, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Jovan Rajic, quote:

"Тако древный оный Языкъ Славенскїй въ Славенносербскихъ во Iллѵрикѣ церквахъ (кромѣ прочихъ Народовъ Славенскихъ Греческаго Исповѣданїя) и до нынѣ процвѣтаетъ, а Iллѵрическїй, то есть простое нарѣчїе или дїалектъ Сербскїй въ свѣтскихъ дѣлахъ употребляется. Славяни же Iллѵрическїи Римскаго Закона яко нарѣчїе древнее, тако и писмена Славенская отвергли, доволствующеся точїю дїалектомъ простимъ, которїю Iллѵрическимъ нарицаютъ, и въ мѣсто писменъ Славенскихъ Римскїя литери употребляти начали въ началѣ сего столѣтствїя."

Illyrian=Serbian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anti-Note (talk • contribs) 19:05, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Very nice, however Illyrian does not mean Serbian unless your a Serb radical who considers Croats and Bosniaks Serbs. The Illyrain movement was actually founded in Croatia. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 22:38, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


 * No, these are the 1700s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anti-Note (talk • contribs) 14:57, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

More from that period:

Na temišvarskom saboru, gde je za Putnikova naslednika izabran mudri Stevan Stratimirović, razvila se velika načelna borba među Srbima. Sveštenstvo, plemići-spahije, u dobroj meri mađarofili, i jedan deo građanstva bili su za kompromis sa Mađarima i tražili su, da se Srbi "inartikuliraju", t. j. da saobraze svoje povlastice sa mađarskim zakonima. Pretstavnici vojske, mahom carski ljudi, i drugi deo građanstva bili su odlučno protiv toga, tražeći, po starom, naslon na dvor i čuvanje svog izuzetnog položaja. Carski komesar, general Popila, pun laskanja prema Srbima, bio je, naravno, na strani ovih drugih. Kad je čuo za predlog o inartikulaciji, on "se pomami", i sa ostalima je živo reagovao da se odbije. Drugi komesar, general Šmid-feld, ponudio je Srbima, u ime cara, da izaberu "predjel zemlje za teritorium vaš", kao posebno područje. Srbi su odgovorili, verujući tvrdo da će se to ostvariti, da biraju Banat. Interesantno je primetiti, da pod uticajem učenih krugova i dvorske kancelarije, i u srpskom službenom stilu beše počeo da za Srbe osvaja naziv ilirskog imena. Tako je i za ovaj sabor govoreno, sa srpske strane, da je "iliričeski narodni" i da "iliričeski narod" izjavljuje svoju vernost caru. U ovo vreme, s obzirom na ponudu o posebnom teritoriju, pomišljalo se na mogućnost obnove srpske despotovine, a za despota uzimao se u kombinaciju Leopoldov sin Aleksandar.

Temišvarski sabor nije doneo ono čemu su se Srbi nadali. Razvoj događaja u Francuskoj, posle revolucije, i ustanak u Belgiji protiv Austrije nagnali su bečku vladu da ne izaziva Mađare do kraja. Srbima je dato više slobode u kulturnim pitanjima i za njih je 1791. god. osnovana posebna "Ilirska dvorska kancelarija", ali je glavno pitanje, ono o posebnoj teritoriji, ostavljeno, da ne bi dovelo do otvorenog sukoba s Mađarima. Učinilo se to s toga, što su Mađari, iz straha od srpskih zahteva i hrvatskog stava, popustili u svojoj opoziciji i što su za svog paletina izabrali onog istog nadvojvodu Aleksandra, koga su Srbi želeli imati za svog nadvojvodu. Kad se to postiglo Beč je u popuštanju pošao dalje, pa je posle smrti cara Leopolda napustio Hrvate, a i prema Srbima se pokazao nelojalan. Već u leto 1792. bila je ukinuta Ilirska kancelarija, a Banat pripojen Mađarskoj. Srbi su, kao toliko puta pre i posle toga imali u sporovima između Beča i Pešte da posluže kao oruđe Dvora, navlačeći na kraju krajeva, po samoj prirodi stvari, nezadovoljstvo na obadve strane.

In the 1600s there was a plan by Djordje Brankovic to form an "Illyrian Lands" Serbian Empire.

Many do not remember, but the founder of the Illyrian movement was a Serb. It was Sava Tekelija, who always declared himself an "Illyrian" next to Serb. He issued two "Illyrian Memorandums", one to the Austrian Emperor and the other to Napoleon, on the status of the Serb people. He then became a conceiver of an idea that all shtokavian-speaking South Slavs are - Illyrians. Tekelija was in contact with count Janko Draskovic, and on one occasion he proposed in a letter that we name our people "Illyrian". Henceforth, Count Draskovic crossed this term to Ljudevit Gaj, from which the Illyrian movement was born. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anti-Note (talk • contribs) 15:08, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

In 1760 the Zadar Archbishopric reports on many colonial migrants from the east - they call them "the Illyrian, Wallachian, Slovin or Serbian people". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anti-Note (talk • contribs) 15:18, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

All right, who's playing dumb here? Someone has forgot to mention that the term Illyrian was rejected in Serb circles. Have you ever read my posts on Talk:Republic of Dubrovnik, related to this topic? Kubura (talk) 06:54, 30 April 2008 (UTC)


 * You are referring to the Illyrian movement and that which hapened after. Its irelevant.


 * I don't know what we're discussing here, "Illyrian" does certainly not mean "Serbian". That's plain fact. I'm not gonna waste my time trying o prove obvious facts, but for example, Napoleon's Illyrian Provinces did not contain one square meter of Serbia. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 07:23, 30 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes they did, they included the whole Bay of Kotor, entire Dubrovnik's hinterland (Cavtat, Konavle, Ston, etc...) and the coast all the way to Cetina. —Preceding unsigned comment added by User: (talk • contribs)


 * It's not Serbia buddy. Aren't you just another product of the recent Serb mythomania? Zenanarh (talk) 08:15, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

More statements, this one from a Catholic Slavonian writer that considered himself Serb, 1798 (its Matija Petar Katancic):

Nostris profecto Illyriis adeo id familiare est us Srblos passim se compellent, non Serviam incolentes modo, sed universum pene Illyricum, ac Daciam quoque, in primis qui Graecam sequuntur ecclesiam, qui per hoc maxime se ab ceteris distingui putant quod Srbli, Srblyani nuncupantur

This is from 1 August 1629, the edict of the Popovo and Zazeblje, signed in carattere illirico overo serviano.

Hungarians and Austrians from time to time from 1690 to 1912 caled the Serbs "Ilyrians". —Preceding unsigned comment added by User: (talk • contribs)


 * LOL Matija Petar Katančić was very well known Croat, one of the writers of Illyric movement started in Croatia, a characteristic of that movement was pan-Slavism. And we already know that term Illyrian was applied to all South Slavs in 19th century, so what for God sake it has to do with this discussion??? BTW translate that Latin quote and enjoy in pan-Slavistic massages of 19th century.
 * You still don't get it, do you? Only Croatian language was called Illyric during Medieval both by its writers as well as by the others about that language. Read all what was written above. Zenanarh (talk) 09:38, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yor second quote is even more funny. It's about the Catholics from Popovo and Zažeblje in Herzegovina, who stated that their subscriptions were signed in carattere illirico overo serviano - properly translated it would mean "by Croatian or Serbian letters (signs)"!!! It seems you've actually found one of the earliest terms in meaning of "Serbo-Croatian"!!! It's logical that it was in the region settled by Stokavian Ijekavians, since that dialect was/is the closest point between Croatian and Serbian languages/dialects. Zenanarh (talk) 10:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Are you sure Katancic was Croat? Then why does he say that which he says? Maybe he is like Fra Grga Skaric?
 * This is not Medieval.
 * Illyrian or Serbian language, meaning in Cyrillic - Croats in Latin. What are you going to say now, that Croatian was official language of Vojvodina and that all Serbs are all realy Croats rofl —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anti-Note (talk • contribs) 01:25, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

STOP IT
Claiming Illyrian is solely Croatian, is claiming all the South Slavic lands for Croatia, a.k.a. a Greater Croatia from Karantanija to Makedonia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anti-Note (talk • contribs) 16:57, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

ROTFL... Unbelievable... Nobody said, wrote, claimed here that adjective Illyrian is solely Croatian or... ahh no use... It was only that ilirski jazik or harvatski jazik were the names of the Croatian language during Medieval and only Croatian language, not Serbian etc... Get it? Key words for you: Medieval, language, Croatian. BTW excuse me for my next question: what's your IQ exactly? Zenanarh (talk) 12:08, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

And what, Croatian was spoken in Montenegro, Raska, Kosovo, Smederevo, Bosnia, Herzegovina, Macedonia, Albania...???

Percisely what I meant. GreaterCroatdom claiming all of ex yugo for hr. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anti-Note (talk • contribs) 18:12, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Aha that's your IQ, interesting. Oh my G, I'm gonna piss my pants laughing... Zenanarh (talk) 16:52, 23 June 2008 (UTC)


 * You insult my inteligence, but that doesnt make you any less GreaterCroatian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anti-Note (talk • contribs) 21:46, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Anti-note, your intelligence is twice higher than this retarded cro-nationalistic monster, you're arguing with. He is powerless over the facts that 'Illyrian' means Serbo-Croatian, Central South Slavic or Shtokavian. His hatred towards everything that confirms the unity of the Serbs and Croats (as one nation) will only sink him deeper and deeper into hisown misery. Enjoy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.98.144.163 (talk) 05:08, 17 May 2012 (UTC)