Talk:Max Payne (character)/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: Retrolord (talk · contribs) 23:34, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

As a result of the substantial issues I have outlined in this review I have had to fail the article. As it stands it does not comply with multiple GA criteria. Thanks!  ★ ★ RetroLord★ ★  12:55, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

I didn't even notice it. --Niemti (talk) 00:22, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Check now. --Niemti (talk) 22:43, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Why do you insist to remove the fact of "trophy wife"? I don't seen any reason to "remove" Miscellaneous section, especially since it's now discussing the comics (and the moving there is "done", contrary to what you wrote with the first "Not done"). Also the statue is real, not the one-third of "one piece of merchandise on xbox live" (the last third being the Alan Wake cameo). --Niemti (talk) 12:27, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Fact or not, the term "trophy wife" is not suitable for an encylopedic recounting of a video games plot. An encyclopedia is not the place to make judgements about the beauty of a video game character.  ★ ★ RetroLord★ ★  05:59, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

OK, explaination time (you should have asked for things, before demanding to "remove".

The correct phrase "trophy wife" is used:
 * in-game (including by Max)
 * by developers/publishers (including in trailers)
 * by journalists (as a statement of fact)

And it's not "judgements about the beauty of a video game character", it's just a description of the video game character. I think you just a wrong idea what a phrase "trophy wife" means, even after I've linked it just for you in the article, so I'll cite Wikipedia for you here: "Trophy wife is an expression used to refer to a wife, usually young and attractive, who is regarded as a status symbol for the husband, who is often older and wealthy. The use of the term also usually reflects negatively on the character or personality of the husband, and has a connotation of narcissism and desire to impress others, and that the husband would not be able to attract the sexual interest of the attractive woman but for his wealth or position." That's what she is, that's her role/job (she and Rodrigo were never been actually in love and they didn't even spend much time with each other, in fact she was much closer to Rodrigo's brother). It's not just a wife, like Max's was.

It's not a "statement made by remedy entertainment", it's a cameo appearance in their new game. Merchandise items (official and licensed) and the use in promotion, if they're just having any, are discussed most of video game character articles. That's including in A-class and FA ones, or just go and see some characters from the same year, such as Cortana (FA), Dante (Devil May Cry) (GA), Flood (Halo) (FA), Master Chief (Halo) (FA), Mona Sax (GA and related, she's also from Max Payne), Tidus (GA), Yuna (Final Fantasy) (GA) - speaking only of these introduced in 2001. And this is the first time I've anyone objecting to this. Also the figure was only bundled with the limited (and more costly) Special Edition.

I don't understand what's wrong with "the case". He's a detective and he was investigating the case (yes) of the drug that killed his family, he was just not trying to arrest them. He didn't just go through the city killing all kinds of criminals completely at random like the Punisher does, so it's important to note it was in fact a case. In MP2 and MP3 he's also investigating specific cases (in MP2 it's the Squeaky Cleaning Company and a string of high-profile murders and in MP3 it's first Fabiana kidnapping, then the organ harvesting ring), then stopping killing people after it's done. --Niemti (talk) 10:46, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

And no, I don't agree with an unexplained removal of this information. You need to more clearly state your reasons and to cite the relevant policies and/or guidelines (instead of "This section should be removed I think."). As I already said, it's common among GA, A and FA articles to discuss promotion and/or merchandise. --Niemti (talk) 11:37, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

I am not assessing it against other articles, I am assessing it against the criteria. I am giving reasons as each issue is listed against the criteria it doesn't comply with. If you really must insist on the inclusion of these bits, I would be glad to fail the article and let you wait a few more months for someone to pick this up again. Your choice.  ★ ★ RetroLord★ ★  11:47, 17 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Against what criteria? You can't say "the criteria", or "I think", you need to explain. There's a failure of communication on your part. And before declaring something "fringe", maybe either play the games or read the article, where it's all listed (including Max's nightmares, including Address Unknown/John Mirra thing, including Max even "finding out" he's a video game character). The only fringe thing was the theory that he killed his wife and made everything else up, not that he's a "little" crazy due to the PTSD like his dad. --Niemti (talk) 12:02, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Against the criteria box it is in. If it is in the 3b box, then it is against that criteria, if it is in the 1a box, then the same applies. Any questions about specifics I will be glad to assist.  ★ ★ RetroLord★ ★  12:05, 17 February 2013 (UTC)


 * But against what exactly criteria (the relevant parts and why). And you need to ask so people can explain. But you didn't voice your doubts and ask for clarifications or anything, you just declared "trophy wife" needs to be removed because you 1) didn't know what the phrase stands for and 2) apparantly you didn't play the games - which is okay, but you didn't neither check it yourself nor just ask about it. That's a serious failure of communication and a completely wrong approach to reviewing an article. People don't do this way and for a good reason. --Niemti (talk) 12:19, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Instead of endlessly criticizing the review, why not fix the problems I have listed?  ★ ★ RetroLord★ ★  12:07, 17 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Because I believe some of these are not actually problems? Like, with the "trophy wife" thing again - you thought it's a problem because you didn't know what the phrase actually means (apparently you thought "trophy" is something like "hot") and you didn't know it's not only true but also official here. As of a state of mind - Max is really, really disturbed. Sound minded people usually don't repeatedly shoot themselves (as in: the other-person figures of themselves) in their dreams and such. Promotion/merchandise - other reviewers never have any problems regarding such things (even while reviewing for FA) and it's extremely unusual to regard this as a "problem", so I need exactly and not just "I think" or the vague "criteria box it is in". --Niemti (talk) 12:19, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

1. Fix everything else before worrying about this 2. It violates WP:UNDUE, it is unneccessary to list that xbox live sells max payne merchandise, as the majority of games released also fall into this category. Criteria 3b if you insist on specifics.  ★ ★ RetroLord★ ★  12:44, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Not really, it's just your interpretation and even FA reviewers don't think so.

Now:
 * It's "morbidly cynical" (not "cyncical") and it links to sardonicism where you can read "what does that mean". Speaking of "grin" from the sardonicism article, Max has a grin on his face through the whole first game.
 * "people close to him die" - everyone who survived the first game dies (except him) - including Mona, his chief Jim Bravura, Senator Woden, Vlad, also Max's new partner Valerie Winterson (who gets shot by him no less).
 * I believe Max's bullet time is an attribute, and here's an explaination' how he does it while giving an example of his dramatic inner monologue.
 * What exactly do you think attributes are, if it's not about characterisation?

And no, I'm not going to just "fix before worrying" of you being wrong. That's nonsense, a reviwers could be potentially wrong about literally everything. --Niemti (talk) 13:03, 17 February 2013 (UTC)