Talk:Max Weber/Archive 2

Categories
Hello,

I removed the category "people from the province of Saxony". Max Weber was born in Thuringia, raised in Prussia and Berlin, and worked in Berlin, Vienna, Heidelberg, Freiburg and Munich. I could not find any link of Max Weber to Saxony nor that he ever even spent one day of his life in Saxony.

If someone wants to add this category once again, please explain what link Weber had to this state as he never lived there.

Best regards YOG'TZE —Preceding unsigned comment added by YOG'TZE (talk • contribs) 11:28, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Contradictions
"He despised the red scare of the middle classes, because the middle classes let the nobility rule. In his opinion, the socialist parties were harmless, because they would turn into middle classes in due time. The nobility was only holding Germany back from becoming a major power in the world. In his opinion, which he expressed in the media and his politics, the middle classes should have united against the aristocracy."

is directly contradictory to:

"Like Nietzsche, Weber was strongly anti-socialist. He despised the anti-nationalist stance of the Marxist parties. Weber thought that the socialist society was impossible. He was surprised that the communists in Russia (who dissolved the old elite and bureaucracy) could survive for more than half a year. Weber died in 1920, so it is unknown what his opinion about communism would have been after its survival."

These statements really need to be sourced, then rewritten clearly. I am quite surprised that this is a featured article, given its current state. --Marysunshine 19:15, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually they are not contradictory! Read again! Rursus 21:13, 5 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The entire 'Weber and German politics' section has been added after the article was featured.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 19:45, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Piotrus -- it makes more sense now. I've made a few cosmetic changes already, and will try to do more based on my scanty knowledge of the topic. You're right, the other sections read decently -- it's just that chunk that's difficult. Hopefully it can be fixed up in no time. --Marysunshine 20:09, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I split this 11Kb section off into its own article: Weber and German politics. Maintain 05:36, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

assignation of link
* English translations of many of Weber's works, unfortunately merged into one very long unformatted file Is not a text of Weber, but seems to be excerpts and summaries

Cultural depictions of Max Weber
I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards,  Durova  17:57, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Religious views?
I just started taking classes on Max Weber this semester in college, and I believe it is not an unreasonable curiosity, that which arised when I did. What are Weber's personal religious views? Glancing over the article I can't find it, and it's not categorized either. I think anybody can see how this would be relevant, not only from reading The Protestant Ethic but also from his famous methodology. Starghost (talk | contribs) 21:10, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


 * You're right. As I've read Durkheim, Marx and Weber are the "fathers of sociology", and to unbias their thinking, their religions and political view would be highly relevant. Although I haven't found it... Anyway Weber is unnaturally inclined to Calvinism, but obviously he haven't read his Bible. Rursus 21:11, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Bureaucracy and Democracy
I'm new to Wikipedia, and unfamiliar with the protocol, so I'm going to ask before making any edits to this impressive entry.

I think the section on bureaucracy leaves some significant insights out:

1. It does not describe the bureaucratic ideal type, particularly the concept of the separation of the office from the officeholder which is integral to the rationalization of government administration and the de-personification of power that is the hallmark of legal-rational authority. 2. It does not describe the elective affinities between capitalism and democracy on the one hand and between capitalism and bureaucracy on the other that engender the spread of legal-rational forms of government globally, which is the central teleological driver in Weber's conception of history (as central to Weber, in fact, as the historical dialectic is to Marx).

3. It does not describe the tensions between bureaucracy and democracy that eventually causes the former to undermine the latter, leading to the domination of humanity by the bureaucracy.

If noone else has plans to address these points, I'll work on them this weekend. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ucbears (talk • contribs)
 * By all means, feel free to expand the article. Please note what references you are using, and note that sometimes the right place for an expansion is in another article (like the one on ideal type or bureaucracy; i.e. not all the details need to be covered in this article).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 21:50, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Parsons' Translation of Weber
One of my mentors alleges that Parsons' translations of Weber were flawed. As I am not fluent in German I cannot confirm or deny these charges? If there is merit to said accusations, however, they should be noted in the article. What does it say about Parsons and structural-functionalism if Parsons misinterpretted Weber (either intentionally or out of ignorance) and then went on to publish some of his key works according to his own falty translations. Again, however, I am not making such accusations but merely relaying them to fellow inquirers. Can someone who either (1) has read multiple translated versions of Weber, or (2) is fluent in German, comment on the validity of the Parsons translation? M. Frederick 08:09, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Look at iron cage. I believe the issue of translation quality is discussed in literature, dig deep enough and we will either find something to add to the article or not. Translation comparison by an editor would be OR, I am afraid - we need a reference for that.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 12:40, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Re:The Religion of China :Confucianism and Taoism

I have recently learned that Max Weber's view on Confucianism is still prevalent to explain the delay of Industrial Revolution of China. I also have found that the original and second translations into English of "The Analects of Confucius" by James Legge (1867) and Rev. Mr. Jennings respectively are both distorted by the Christian bias for placing Christianity above Confucianism. This is the argument made by the third English translator, Lionel Giles (1907). I wonder if any scholars investigated all the translated publications that Max Weber used whether or not they had been corrupted (biased) by the Christian bias. In case of James Legge, Lionel Giles said, "Legge's whole attitude to Confucianism bespoke one comprehensive and fatal foregone conclusion-the conviction that it must at every point inferior to Christianity."

User:Hiromiando

Removed strange remark
I deleted a reference to Weber's wife as "nasty-looking." It seemed at best irrelevant, and even if true (which was hard to tell from the single photograph), pointlessly bloated an already large article.

LadyCrow 19:29, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

death cause
This article reads "pneumonia", but on the article Spanish flu he is listed as one of the famous victims. Anyone knowing any more of this? Googling now seems hopeless, there is no way to know where they have gotten the information from. I think one of the articles should be changed, or if it is this, clearified (of course that flu could be described as pneumonia, but that is not very precise, is it?). Greswik (talk) 22:05, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Religion?
What was the religion of Max Weber? Durkheim and Marx were non-religious. What about Weber? Was he religious? Masterpiece2000 (talk) 03:54, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The article says he was a "moderate Calvanist". Did you miss that part? Lol.-- Pericles of Athens  Talk 02:40, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Weber was actually an atheist, despite his intense, life-long interest for religion in general and for Calvinism in particular (which his mother had professed). In fact, Leo Strauss criticized Weber at great length for being open about his own "faithlessness" (see, e.g., ). - Eb.hoop (talk) 11:12, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Monopoly on the legitimate use of physical force
Since this article is featured I think it's a good idea to discuss this potentially disruptive but badly needed merge. ⟳ ausa کui × 01:26, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Simply, don't. Monopoly... is a valid topic that needs to be expanded in it's separate article.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 01:32, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * No question of a merger; these Articles relate to sufficiently different, though related topics. RashersTierney (talk) 00:39, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Proposal to remove date-autoformatting
Dear fellow contributors

MOSNUM no longer encourages date autoformatting, having evolved over the past year or so from the mandatory to the optional after much discussion there and elsewhere of the disadvantages of the system. Related to this, MOSNUM prescribes rules for the raw formatting, irrespective of whether or not dates are autoformatted. MOSLINK and CONTEXT are consistent with this.

There are at least six disadvantages in using date-autoformatting, which I've capped here:

Removal has generally been met with positive responses by editors. I'm seeking feedback about this proposal to remove it from the main text (using a script) in about a week's time on a trial basis/ The original input formatting would be seen by all WPians, not just the huge number of visitors; it would be plain, unobtrusive text, which would give greater prominence to the high-value links. Tony  (talk)  09:17, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

The second paragraph of the section on The Protestant Ethic begins with several very poorly written, difficult to understand sentences with, among other things, ambiguous grammatical antecedents. I am not qualified to edit this material, but think that someone should. Joachimben (talk) 05:00, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Weber's Definition of Bureaucracies
I have moved the following unreferenced section from main article. Perhaps it can be salvaged. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 18:51, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

His criteria for defining bureaucracy included the following:
 * Administrative offices are organized hierarchically.
 * Each offices has its own area of competence.
 * Civil servants are appointed, not elected, on the basis of technical qualifications as determined by diplomas or examinations
 * Civil servants received fixed salaries according to rank
 * The job is a career and the sole employment of the civil servant
 * The official does not own his or her office.
 * The official is subject to control and discipline
 * Promotion is based on superiors' judgement.
 * Consistent "spans of control" (with a minimum of 5-7 for semi-literate and semi-skilled workers) could be observed in such organizations.
 * His analysis was not prescriptive, but descriptive of the way the best and most efficient of these organizations worked.

When Weber confronted the issue of organizational structures and behavior, particularly in terms of the modern capitalist bureaucracy, as he called it, he believed that he was studying a relatively new phenomenon, and he was correct. Some of the aforementioned characteristics could be found in classic China, but not all. Like the nation-state, bureaucracies had started in Western Europe around the sixteenth century but were only reaching their full powers in the early twentieth century, which fact Weber distrusted. (Roskin, Cord, Medeiros, Jones, Political Science: An Introduction (10th Edition), 2008; ISBN 0-13-242576) His characteristics of a bureaucracy he had rationally "distilled" from his obversations of numerous such structures, and the model he presented was not prescriptive of how a bureaucracy should function, but was an ideal structure drawn from many sources which nonetheless could be used to critique the functioning of these types of organizations.

Confusing sentence
Near the end of the introduction is this confusing and unreferenced sentence:

"His work on bureaucracies, which was descriptive, not prescriptive, as it has been taken by his western mediators, such as Harvard's Talcott Parsons (translator of Economy and Society, 1947), noted that these institutions were based on legitimate--or legal--authority."

"western mediators"? OK, the U.S. is west of Germany but since Germany is generally considered a western nation this is confusing. If this is meant to imply that people other than Parsons also have this interpretation it would be useful to cite them. From the way the sentence is written I'm not sure if Parsons thought Weber's work on bureaucracies was prescriptive or based on legal authority or both. Also, I'm not sure what descriptive/prescriptive has to do with legal authority. Also, if there are differing interpretations of Weber's work on bureaucracies this should be described as a controversy not decreed as it seems to be in this sentence, basic NPOV.

I just want to make sure I'm not missing something before I change a featured article. Erickaakcire (talk) 16:41, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Peacock terms in lead
We should show not tell. See WP:PEACOCK. Fences and windows (talk) 01:40, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

The Religion of China: Confucianism and Taoism
This section has three consecutive paragraphs saying that "popular cults" were "tolerated". The redundancy is distracting. Brock (talk) 20:05, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

FAR needed
Urgent cleanup is needed here, (see Featured articles/Cleanup listing), or this article should be submitted to WP:FAR. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 16:24, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I renew this assessment, a major section without any citations and some clean up required. Hopefully some quick work will mean it ought not to be necessary. SGGH ping! 19:32, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Attitude towards Poles
From Eric Hobsbawn, Age of Empire, Chapter 6: "Waving Flags: Nations and Nationalism" p.152: "Max Weber gory of open-minded German bourgeois scholarship, developed so passionate an animus against the Poles (...) that he actually joined the ultra nationalist Pan-German League in the 1890s." I wonder if this merits a mention in the article? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 21:25, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Do other scholars agree with Mr Hobsbawn, or is he a lone voice? &mdash; goethean &#2384; 14:36, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * http://books.google.com/books?id=fcNJc-p2bjwC&pg=PA55&lpg=PA55&dq=%22Pan-German+League%22+weber&source=bl&ots=F-KQjfpxrZ&sig=oGaygFh5E5mGX05VCeExGJ6Sf3Q&hl=en&ei=9OfASs--EIeylAffh4mwBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=%22Pan-German%20League%22%20weber&f=false. &mdash; goethean &#2384; 16:46, 28 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm convinced. Go ahead. &mdash; goethean &#2384; 16:48, 28 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Done. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 23:38, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Reference No. 6
Reference No. 6: "Periodical, Sociology Volume 250, September, 1999, 'Max Weber'" is ambiguous. In the present form makes it difficult to find the referenced journal and article, as there seems to be more than one publication named "Sociology" (the referenced article doesn't seem to be from Sociology published by Sage and British Sociological Association for example). Should at least have the publisher and author of the article (if named).

Toehk (talk) 06:12, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Addition of Hermann Baumgarten
Is it worth adding Hermann Baumgarten's influence on Weber? See the following sources: Regards,   A rbitrarily 0    ( talk ) 23:33, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * See excerpt: "Max Weber’s Personal Life, 1886-1893".
 * Hermann Baumgarten (in English). Encyclopædia Britannica Online. Retrieved 25 March 2010.

Expert review noted in study
According to this paper, Stephen Turner (editor of the Cambridge Companion to Max Weber and professor at University of South Florida) reviewed this article and gave it a score of 1 out of 10. According to the paper, it's described as “misleading, full of errors or at least problematic claims” and “odd judgments” and [...] the sources used were “pretty strange.” Pretty harsh criticism, what do the regular editors of this article think? Nathan  T 15:57, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
 * As the primary author (of the 2004 version...), I think this article is a far cry from what would an expert like Turner write. I wrote it years ago when I was still an undergrad, and guided by the 2004 standards (still mostly focused on "brilliant prose" days) and it shows (the 2006 FARC improved the density of references, but that is not a fix-it-all). Still, it would be nice if Turner was more helpful (specific) with his review (or if the paper cited him in more detail). According to this we may get a more detailed look at the reviews, hopefully there will be more clear as to what can be fixed an how. Of course, the best outcome would be to get experts like Turner himself involved in this - perhaps somebody should contact him and invite him to do just that? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:43, 16 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Needless to say the social sciences, and things like continental philosophy, are especially problematic for Wikipedia! All these complex metaphysical-theoretical concepts, barely stable enough as it is in the hands of a few experts, slip through the fingers like sand when everything is left open to totally unqualified individuals.
 * There are a lot of mistakes in the article but I certainly wouldn't say it's a "1 out of 10". Phoning up one lecturer per article and asking them to give a score out of ten is hardly scientific. This article does better than the powerpoint presentation of the average secondary school sociology teacher! --Tomsega (talk) 12:33, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not a 1/10; but should it really be a FA? --John (talk) 02:29, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
 * "Weber left politics due to right-wing agitation in 1919 and 1920." With schoolboy errors like this, it definitely shouldn't. This desperately needs improvement or demotion. --John (talk) 02:32, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I took an initial pass. It really needs work on the citations and writing style. --John (talk) 05:45, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Asian belief systems
The following is copied from The Religion of India: The Sociology of Hinduism and Buddhism. I think it is based on Reinhard Bendix, Max Weber: an intellectual portrait, around p.200? (don't have a copy at hand to be 100% sure). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 05:19, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Weber concluded his research of society and religion in India by combining his discoveries with his previous work on China. He notes that the beliefs saw the meaning of life as otherwoldy mystical experience. The social world is fundamentally divided between the educated elite, following the guidance of a prophet or wise man, and the uneducated masses whose believes are centered on magic. In Asia, there was no Messianic prophecy to plan and meaning to the everyday life of educated and uneducated alike. Weber juxtaposed such Messianic prophecies, notably from the Near East region to those found on the Asiatic mainland, focusing more on exemplary ways to live one's life. It was those differences that prevented the countries of the Occident from following the paths of the earlier Chinese and Indian civilizations. His next work, Ancient Judaism was an attempt to prove this theory.

Given name
The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy gives Weber's full given name as "Karl Emil Maximilian," rather than what the current version of this article says, "Maximilan Carl Emil." If anyone knows why this should not be changed, please say so here. - Eb.hoop (talk) 02:05, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
 * As does just about every Google book source referring to the name. Needs to be changed. RashersTierney (talk) 02:18, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Done. RashersTierney (talk) 03:11, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Irrelevant information about other scholars criticizing socialism
This seems to be not about Weber, but about others building on his works. As such, this does not belong here. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 00:23, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

To elaborate: I've read several intro texts on Weber, none of them mention critique of socialism as significant. This is something that may be relevant to articles about his specific works, or Max Weber on economy and such, but I don't think it is relevant here. Please show me an intro text on Weber that discusses his critique of socialism and I'll withdraw my objection. PS. Most of that content is also unreferenced; it also concerns what others said building on Weber's works, not what he said. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:58, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Disputed (irrelevand/undue) content:

In his capital work on sociological theory, Economy and Society (posthumously published in 1921-22), Weber elaborates on this point. Socialist intellectuals like Otto Neurath had realized that in a completely socialized economy money prices would not exist and central planners would have to resort to in-kind (rather than monetary) economic calculation. According to Weber, this type of coordination would be inefficient, especially because it would be incapable of solving the problem of imputation (i.e. of accurately determining the relative value of capital goods):

"In order to make possible a rational utilization of the means of production, a system of in-kind accounting would have to determine "value"-indicators of some kind for the individual capital goods which could take over the role of the "prices" used in book valuation in modern business accounting. But it is not at all clear how such indicators could be established, and in particular, verified; whether, for instance, they should vary from one production unit to the next (on the basis of economic location), or whether they should be uniform for the entire economy, on the basis of "social utility," that is, of (present and future) consumption requirements? [...] Nothing is gained by assuming that, if only the problem of a non-monetary economy were seriously enough attacked, a suitable accounting method would be discovered or invented. The problem is fundamental to any kind of complete socialization. We cannot speak of a rational "planned economy" so long as in this decisive respect we have no instrument for elaborating a rational "plan"."

This argument against socialism was taken up by Ludwig von Mises and Friedrich Hayek, of the Austrian school of economics, and became central to free market economics' intellectual assault on socialism in general. Hayek's argument that markets communicate efficiently through pricing and that this cannot be duplicated by central planning, won him the Nobel Prize in Economics for 1974.


 * Dear Piotrus: The text that you are objecting to was perfectly well referenced.  All of the statements about what Weber himself says are supported by the texts that are then quoted from (the intro. to the Essays on the Sociology of Religion and ch. 2 of Economy and Society).  It also seems relevant that this work is directly connected to a Nobel prize in economics (Friedrich Hayek's).  It is true that this aspect of Weber's critique of socialism is not often emphasized in the sociology textbooks, but this seems no reason to me to leave it out here.  Here are some non-technical discussions of Weber's role in the so-called "socialist calculation" debate:, , . - Eb.hoop (talk) 05:22, 28 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The problem is several-fold. First, you referenced some parts with primary sources - Weber's words. Per WP:RS, we should be relying on secondary sources, and use quotes as an added illustration, not the primary source. This is, however, a minor issue, as I still see the primary one as relevance and due weight. Hundreds of books and thousands of articles have been written about Weber and his thought, and obviously we cannot put all the details here. How important is the critique of socialism to Weber's thought? As something not present in any of the intro texts I read, I believe it is only a minor tangent of his thought, and as such, not something that belongs to this article. Please note this is not a singling of socialism; Weber had written, or was used to discuss a myriad of concepts (consider such "big" words as Nazism or communism. Or that we devote barely a sentence to a much more clearly defined concept of life chances. You have still not proven that critique of socialism is major enough to deserve a separate section (mind you, in my shortened version the gist was still preserved in the economy section). Lastly, please keep in mind this is an article about Weber, not about what others have said based on his words. I don't see why Otto Neurath, Friedrich Hayek or Ludwig von Mises need to have their views described here. If they engaged with Weber, this is something to be discussed in theirs articles. In this one, we discuss Weber, and those theorists that inspired him. Of course, if there would be consensus among intro texts and such that Weber's inspiration of theorist X is crucial, we could mention it here - but I don't recall such a mention. Weber, obviously, has inspired hundreds if not thousands of others to engage with his work, and giving them a voice here is impractical. At best, we could have a sentence or two listing most important theorists inspired by Weber. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 02:13, 28 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Dear Piotrus: I don't really see any reason not to include a few paragraphs, in the section about Weber as an economist, about work by Weber that has a direct bearing on a very important question in theoretical economics.  In fact, this seems to me that part of Weber's original work that would be most recognizable as economics to a modern economist.  Here's another secondary source that mentions Weber's work on the problem of economic calculation: Swedberg's Weber Dictionary.  Notice also that this connects with preoccupations of Weber's that are discussed elsewhere in the article, especially about rationalization.  It seems to me quite natural to mention Neurath, Mises, or Hayek, to the extent that their work is related to Weber's, in the same vein as we mention Kant, Nietzsche, or Habermas.  Finally, let me point that that it wasn't I who originally put in the discussion of Weber's argument about the impossibility of socialist calculation.  This article had included it for a long time before I began editing it.  - Eb.hoop (talk) 05:22, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Economic calculation is not socialism. I am all for expanding the article further, but we don't need few paragraphs on Weber's critique of socialism, one should be enough - particularly when most of the current content comes not from "what Weber said about socialism" (which is what I kept in my shortened version) but what "others said about socialism after being inspired by Weber" (which I think is irrelevant and undue here). To enrich our discussion, I am going to ask for a 3O. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:04, 28 March 2011 (UTC)


 * But the point is that Weber did make the argument that economic calculation (which he and Sombart thought was an essential part of the rationalization of economic activity) was not possible under socialism because of the lack of money prices. Even if this is not usually emphasized in sociology textbooks, it is quite relevant to the history of economic thought in the 20th century.  And this is independent of Weber's other substantial criticism of socialism, that it could work in practice only by establishing an increasingly rigid bureaucratic control of life, which was the opposite of the "withering away of the state" envisioned by Marx. - Eb.hoop (talk) 13:47, 29 March 2011 (UTC)


 * That's reasonable. Does it mean you agree that the excess information should be removed from the article as I suggest? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:03, 29 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Before you go ahead and remove the quote from Economy and Society, let me remind you that this wasn't added by me. As far as I can tell, it was added by Ivanelo on 21 Apr. 2009, and the discussion around it was later revised by several other users.  See:.
 * As for the reference to Weber's influence on Hayek, that seems to have been originally added by Kazvorpal on 23 Nov. 2010. The current version of the article provides two references to Hayek mentioning Weber's work on the economic calculation problem: a video interview and a chapter from one of his books. - Eb.hoop (talk) 17:03, 29 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Who added doesn't really matter, what matters is whether we can find a consensus on how to make this the best possible article. If you both agree with the third option I've proposed, then that is a consensus and we can make changes to the article.  Piotrus thinks the proposed compromise works, do you Eb.hoop?  If yes, let's make it happen.  If no, there is no consensus and if one cannot be found then we'll need to look at a more formal dispute resolution. - Pictureprovince (talk) 17:20, 29 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't think that the quote from Economy & Society should be removed, as Piotrus wants. In fact, I see nothing wrong with how things stand at the moment with regard to this issue.  And my reason for briging up the users who added it was to clarify that this is not my view against Piotrus's.  Several other users, who have not weighed in, worked on the material that Piotrus wants removed or cut back.  - Eb.hoop (talk) 17:29, 29 March 2011 (UTC)


 * As there is no agreement on the proposed third option, I would encourage you to take a look at your other dispute resolution options. - Pictureprovince (talk) 17:40, 29 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I've made some edits to place the discussion in the broader context of Weber's preoccupation with economic calculation, and added references to secondary sources that discuss this. I hope this will ease some of Piotrus's concerns.  - 20:03, 29 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I guess it is time for an RfC. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 20:06, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Or maybe not, I think the new section is much better. However, I've added several cite requests. In particular, remember that per WP:RS, we should not interpret original sources other than in quotes, but rely on secondary ones. (I am not saying I always find that interpretation helpful, but it is the policy, so...). The first two cites are clear (end of sentence cites); the third one is for a source that clarifies that the quote that follows refers to "full socialism". I hope those cites will be easy to provide. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 20:12, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Dear Piotrus: I've added the secondary sources that you wanted, except for that third one. I think that the only reasonable interpretation possible of the quote is that it's referring to what would happen in a completely socialized economy without money prices.  You could put in one of the secondary refs. there (Tribe, Cat, or Hulsmann), since they all make that point clear, but I think it would only confuse a reader as to what exactly is being referenced.  - Eb.hoop (talk) 10:04, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you could rephrase the sentence so that it is clear? For example something like "Weber also discussed full socialism.[ref] He wrote: {quote}. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:49, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Influence on other economists
I'm somewhat puzzled by the qualms expressed by Piotrus, Binksternat, and others to referring in any detail to Weber's influence on other economists in the section about Economics. Weber thought he was primarily an economist and when he was a professor it was always in economics. But economics in Germany in his day focused on economic history and was entirely non-mathematical. Much of that work is now totally forgotten among economists, but Weber himself is an interesting case, because he broke with the other German historicists in very two important respects: by advocating methodological individualism and by accepting marginalism.

For historical reasons, Weber's influence was most obvious and direct on the economists of the so-called "Austrian School," especially Schumpeter, Mises, and Hayek, who, like the neoclassicals, embraced marginalism and methodological individualism, but, unlike the neoclassicals, remained largely non-mathematical. Weber did have a direct influence on one of the fathers of the neoclassical Chicago School, Frank Knight, who cared enough about Weber to translate his General Economic History into English.

None of this is original research, as the secondary references currently in the article should make clear. Nor is the point of mentioning those other economists to "hang a coat" on the Weber hook. It's simply to clarify the relation of Weber to modern economics. This is, I think, a very important issue for the article to treat. It only looks more complicated or controversial than it is because Weber today is read almost exclusively by sociologists and social philosophers, who tend to know little about modern economics. - Eb.hoop (talk) 16:40, 31 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I took out your Frank Knight bit because it was only about him translating Weber, not about Weber's influence on his thought. If you find reliable sources to cite Knight being influenced by Weber, that information is appropriate for, say, the Legacy section. However, I would ask that this kind of expansion be saved for after the GA process.
 * A general note: if mainstream thought today puts Weber in the sociology box, then that is the article's main stance. Wikipedia ideally mirrors mainstream thought. We also make note of significant minor viewopoints, observing the proper weight of those viewpoints in relation to the mainstream. There is certainly room in the article to describe Weber's influence in economics. Binksternet (talk) 17:08, 31 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I understand your concern and I agree that the focus of the article is rightly on the sociology. I've been concentrating on the economics because that's what I'm most familiar with and interested in.  But let me insist that this is not about covering a non-mainstream or minority view.  There are many books and articles written on the subject, some of them currently cited, and there's no significant disagreement on any of the points I've included.  In other words, what I've added to the section about Economics is not in dispute or controversial.  It's only that it comes from the economic and economic history literature, whereas the people who write surveys and encyclopedia articles about Weber tend to be sociologists or philosophers.
 * In any case, I'm now done with the edits to the Economics section. I think that the references to Knight et al. are better left under economics, where they are most meaningful and instructive, instead of jumbling them under Legacy at the end, but of course that should be decided by consensus.
 * About the GA process, I think that it's very useful to subject this article to review, but I feel that the nomination might have been premature. There are some substantive issues that still need to be addressed.  The Legacy section as currently written, for example, is weak and unclear.  Also, I think that someone who knows more of sociology than I should really add a thorough discussion of Weber's work on cities, which I think is in fact extremely important, contrary to what Piotrus said on this talk page some time ago.  - Eb.hoop (talk) 09:18, 1 April 2011 (UTC)


 * A GA nomination can be concluded successfully even if the article has minor lapses in content. It is the FA nomination which would be halted in the presence of such lapses. Binksternet (talk) 13:14, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Racism
Numerous works by scholars touch upon Max Weber's racism and his passionate nationalism. This seems to be absent from the article for some reason. Such flaw of this article needs correction. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 16:21, 15 April 2011 (UTC)


 * The article mentions: "From 1893 to 1899 Weber was a member of the Alldeutscher Verband (Pan-German League), an organisation that campaigned against the influx of the Polish workers; the degree of Weber's support for the Germanisation of Poles and similar nationalist policies is still debated by modern scholars" and [early in the WWI] "he supported the nationalist rhetoric and the war effort, believing that the fight against the backward and despotic Russian Empire was justified and that a "liberal imperialism" along the lines of the British model would help Germany to develop a more mature political class". I am not sure if more is needed; if you can link to sources, please do so, but keep in mind this article cannot give undue weight to footnote arguments (those could be however developed in the Weber and German politics article). Bottom line, while I agree that this article should mention Weber's bias against Poles and his support for nationalist policies, I am not sure if it needs to be stressed more than now. I am also not convinced he was motivated by racial views, my reading indicates he was motivated by the desire for strong Germany, and his support for Germanization was based on generic "one culture = strong state" rather then "superior culture/superior race" Nazi argument. PS. The cited source does seem to suggest we can word the critique of his attitude towards Polish more strongly, perhaps linking anti-Polish, but I'd strongly suggest against adding more than one sentence on that. PPS. The above source discusses the Polish question on pages 53-60, and again from page 211 to see in particular pages 55-56 for some arguments that he wasn't necessarily a racist, and then see page 59 for how he started supporting the Polish cause (or at least, opposing the opponents): he argued against the restriction of Polish language and against the expropriation of Polish landholdings, later he supported calls for greater autonomy for the Prussian Poles. In 1915 he even decided to learn Polish . As the ending para notes, Weber changed from the firebrand of the 1880s and 1890s to a compromiser on the issue of Prussian Poles. This was due to his recognition that a moderate/liberal nationalist policy was more efficient and more lilkely to create a strong German state. That said, early on he would much rather prefer an autonomous Polish region in Germany than an independent Poland, although page 212 suggest he realized that a solution like that of the Mitteleuropa may be necessary, hence formally independent, German-allied (and realistically German-dependent) Poland would be acceptable, or preferable (see also p. 224). In fact, later he actually preferred an semi-independent, Germany-allied Poland to keeping the territories partitioned (see p.220). Finally, p. 226 and 227 ((see also p. 226) note he was critical of the Regency Kingdom because he was it as as not sufficiently Polish and too much of a German puppet state to garner real support among the Poles, and thus not going far enough to create a lasting Polish-German alliance. This may make a worthwile addition to another article, but it is not likely of importance to this article. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 17:02, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
 * But I am not talking about Poles :) I am talking about racism(which he expressed towards Poles also) in general. While no doubt Poles were part of that aspect, the racism expressed by Weber on numerous occassions is completely absent from this article. Also he was active politically in several nationalist parties and organizations-in addition to making political calls for continued war by Germans in 1918.This is also absent from the article. Plus they are inaccuracies in the text. Weber was-according to my sources member of Eastern Marches Society-this is something different from Pan-German League(although with similiar goals). Pan-German League existance was not primarily directed against influct of Polish workers-this was only a small part of its agenda-it was most of all nationalist and anti-semitic organization devoted to the idea of German imperalism, conquest of other nations, and Germanization of previous conquests. This should be corrected in the article.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 17:39, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

PS: I didn't noticed the article Weber and German politics-most of his anti-Polish agenda could be expanded there I suppose, but the main article should contain a section on his racism, as well as short description of nationalist involvement(that didn't just concentrate on Poles.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 17:43, 15 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Dear MyMoloboaccount: If you have good secondary sources about Weber's alleged racism, please add them (or at least list them here, so that others may add them to the article). My own view is that the article in its current form accurately reflects Weber's views and how they evolved over time.  He was never personally racist or anti-semitic.  In fact, he was openly critical of anti-semitism in German academia and fought to support the careers of Jewish colleagues like Georg Simmel.  Even otherwise critical commentators, like Arnaldo Momigliano, recognized that Weber's sympathetic understanding of Jewish rabbinical culture (as reflected in his book Ancient Judaism) was unique in all of German scholarship (see ).  Weber was certainly a nationalist, but not the kind of nationalist that was appealing to the German right of his day.  In the 1880s and 90s, he wrote that the German governing class was intellectually immature and advocated strengthening it along the lines of what he saw as better models in Britain and the US.  He initially supported the German cause in World War I, especially against Russia, but as early as 1915 he became a strong critic of the Kaiser and his war policies, which he correctly saw were putting Germany permanently at odds with other Western powers and would eventually cause the US to join the war against Germany.  His opposition to signing the Versailles Treaty had nothing to do with his desire to prolong the war, but rather to avoid a national humiliation which might have disastrous consequences down the road (as, in fact, it did).  On this last point see, for instance, by W. J. Mommsen, the scholar principally responsible for modern attacks on Weber's nationalism.  - Eb.hoop (talk) 18:26, 15 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Andrew Zimmerman, assistant professor of history at the George Washington University writes "Weber made racism, moreover, a prominent element of his politics and scholarship" in "Alabama in Africa: Booker T. Washington, the German Empire, and the Globalization of the New South by Andrew Zimmerman, Princeton University Press 2010, page 102.Further Page 103

Max Weber brought questions about race directly into discussions about German free labor, adding racial purity and raciam contamination to the long standing concerns in the Verein about free agricultural labor in the East. There are other examples included. But I think those are enough. And there are other books as well
 * The white racial frame: centuries of racial framing and counter-framing

Joe R. Feagin "a U.S. sociologist and social theorist who has conducted extensive research on racial and gender issues, especially in regard to the United States" writes: "like other social scientists, he held to the tenets of blatant biological racism, a view that infected his historical and geopolitical arguments,yet one that almost never gets critically discussed in the social science textbooks and empirical analyses that to this day use his important concepts. Weber wrote openly and unreflectively of the "hereditary hysteria" of Asian Indians, of Africans as genetically incapable of factory work, and of the Chinese as slow in intelligence and docile, with these latter traits viewed as significantly shaped by biology" The white racial frame: centuries of racial framing and counter-framing Joe R. Feagin, page 6

So scholars do note the issue of Max Weber's racism, and the fact that for long time unfortunately it was avoided in analysis of his work.However modern research no longer avoids this issue it seems, and we have numerous examples of Weber's racists thoughts.

--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 20:21, 15 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Dear MyMoloboaccount: The two sources that you cite are do not reflect the mainstream scholarly understanding of Weber's work. Note that neither focuses on Weber, and that the latter, by Feagin, explicity challenges the mainstream by stating that Weber's supposedly racist view "almost never gets critically discussed in the social science textbooks."
 * Let me quote the only passage from Weber's work in which, as far as I know, he talks of possible biological or hereditary explanations for the differences between the economic arrangements of different cultures. Draw your own conclusions about whether this is evidence of racism:
 * Finally, we may make a reference to the anthropological side of the problem. When we find again and again that, even in departments of life apparently mutually independent, certain types of rationalization have developed in the Occident, and only there, it would be natural to suspect that the most important reason lay in differences of heredity. The author admits that he is inclined to think the importance of biological heredity very great. But in spite of the notable achievements of anthropological research, I see up to the present no way of exactly or even approximately measuring either the extent or, above all, the form of its influence on the development investigated here.
 * It must be one of the tasks of sociological and historical investigation first to analyse all the influences and causal relationships which can satisfactorily be explained in terms of reactions to environmental conditions. Only then, and when comparative racial neurology and psychology shall have progressed beyond their present and in many ways very promising beginnings, can we hope for even the probability of a satisfactory answer to that problem. In the meantime that condition seems to me not to exist, and an appeal to heredity would therefore involve a premature renunciation of the possibility of knowledge attainable now, and would shift the problem to factors (at present) still unknown.
 * -- Intro. to The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism (1905)

- Eb.hoop (talk) 05:34, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I would just like to point out that discussion with the user called Molobo aka MyMoloboaccount can be a fruitless and most frustrating experience, as soon as Germans come into play (who generally seem to equal 'German nationalists', if not outright Nazis for that user). My own experience I gained (or rather, underwent, when trying to fix some POV issues in the Polish-German topics) is that the best thing to do would be to gather a consensus amongst constructive editors (the opinions of whom as a rule seem to concur), try to avoid feeding the troll and then just ignore the POV crusader. Whilst it's true that Weber initially supported the German war effort and may have exhibited nationalist views (but hey, this was a rule, rather than exception these days) - and Piotrus's post is helpful in this respect -, I think reducing Weber to a German nationalist and racist thinker is tantamount to summarizing Fyodor Tyutchev's importance as that of an anti-Polish scribbler or attempts at painting Konrad Adenauer, usually credited with establishing the democratic German state, as some closeted ultranationalist. Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 12:48, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Needs a Bibliography
There is no bibliography of Max Weber's writings other than the sources scattered in the body and the notes section. I propose that this be changed as soon as possible so that people can immediately look at the bibliography rather than have to wade through the body text.Michael 06:22, 28 May 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mikem1234 (talk • contribs)

Cities
His work on cities is not included here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.58.81.12 (talk) 05:24, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
 * It doesn't appear to be a major focus of his work. It was one of the works published posthumously, see . It doesn't seem to be mentioned in most generic summaries of his work. If you can think of a way to utilize this cite, please be bold and do so. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 23:22, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

His essay "Urbanization and Social Structure in the Ancient World" was considered important enough by the Weber scholar W.G. Runciman to be included in Weber: Selections in Translation (Trans. Eric Matthews, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1978). In that essay, he discusses different class relationships that underlie city organizations in the Roman and Greek world, as compared to the medieval cities, and it is worth including because it is part of his attempt to falsify Marxism. He claims that the Middle Ages had a much more advanced development of capitalism that many historians admitted. Michael 06:29, 28 May 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mikem1234 (talk • contribs)

Lead too long
I tagged the article as having too long a lead section, per Manual of Style (lead section) where it says no more than four paragraphs. The summary of Weber's life is complex—no doubt about that—but the main themes must be dealt with in four paragraphs, no more. Binksternet (talk) 03:51, 2 July 2011 (UTC)


 * OK, let me take a stab a shortening it. - Eb.hoop (talk) 05:39, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Critical responses to Weber
Has there been any mention of South Germany and Austria to counter his hypothesis about protestants being the source of capitalism and economic success etc.? Baden-Württemberg is predominantly catholic, I believe, and Austria as well. They seem to do fine, right? BW does have many protestants (now), though. So, has this been used against Weber as well? 81.68.255.36 (talk) 09:46, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Critical responses: Related sources



 * Dr Sascha Becker suggests that religion is a factor in the budgetary discrepancies between the north and south of Europe. In a paper written in 2009 for the Quarterly Journal of Economics, entitled Was Weber Wrong?, Becker and Woessmann argue that Protestants were more successful because they were more educated. They conclude that the educational advantage began soon after Martin Luther broke away from the established Church in the 16th century. It continues to play its part in creating economic success throughout Europe. France, a mostly Catholic country and an economic power in Europe, is cited as an exception to Weber's theory. Becker credit France's early political secularism. drs (talk) 16:21, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Addition to Article - Draft
I wanted to add a more in depth explanation of Weber's expansion of the theory of the two theodicies, fortune and misfortune. I feel the article, while addressing the Protestant work ethic, lacks the relationship these two theodicies have to class and class denominational segregation. The following is a draft I have written to add to the "Sociology of Religion" section. Please add feedback and constructive criticism.

EDIT...figured the draft would make the talk page a bit clustered, so the mentioned draft is posted on my sandbox. (talk) 12:11, 28 May 2012 (UTC)


 * The draft section is here: User_talk:Jwebz1. --Ktlynch (talk) 11:11, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Geography
In the information box, it correctly states that, at the time of Weber's birth, Erfurt was in the province of Saxony. However, in the main body of the article, it says Weber was born in Erfurt, Thuringia, the German state in which the city now lies, without any qualifier such as 'modern day' or 'now in', which could lead to some confusion and accuracy errors. I didn't want to change anything, rather prefer to flag it up on Talk for someone more qualified to deal with in the correct manner... JSvejk (talk) 17:28, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, I am not that well versed in German historical geography. You may want to make a note of your question at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Germany. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 21:40, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

US or UK spelling
The article jumps around between US and UK spelling as to "iza/ize" and "isa/ise". On 1 December the heading "Rationalisation" was changed to "Rationalization" and then reverted, without either editor seeking consistency throughout the article. WP:ENGVAR makes it clear that we should prefer either US or UK spelling throughout (apart from quotations). Weber wrote solely in German, while several English translations have appeared in the US and several in the UK, so there does not seem to be any national association to indicate a preference between US and UK spelling. I don't have a strong view, but one indicator toward a preference for US spelling might be that Weber's central work Wirtschaft und Gesellschaft has been translated into English only once as a whole work and that is as Economy and Society published in the US and accordingly with US spelling. Let us have a quick discussion. --Wikiain (talk) 03:58, 4 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I should think the article would be presented in UK English or even Oxford English which uses the "ize" endings. It is my opinion that American English ought not be the standard because of the primarily European subject matter. Binksternet (talk) 04:52, 4 December 2012 (UTC)


 * At the last GA Review the subject came up and standard UK English was selected, not Oxford. That is not to say that a different spelling system cannot be chosen in the future... Binksternet (talk) 04:56, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

I made the revert you refer to on the basis that the page is marked as 'Use British English' since April 2011, the apparent consensus position. RashersTierney (talk) 10:01, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you - I hadn't noticed that. I have now changed, where not inappropriate, "iza/ize" to "isa/ise". --Wikiain (talk) 05:55, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Weber's political progression 1890–1920
Six times now I have removed from this article a section discussing Weber's politics during the period 1890–1920. User:Hullaballoo Wolfowitz has removed it once, too, with the edit summary "OR/subjective/synthesis". Several versions of this section have been put forward. Two of them are as follows:

There are many problems with this material. The most obvious is that each version is a coatrack for one viewpoint, the first for Steinberg's, the second for Mommsen's. Both versions manage to shoehorn in the name of Dr. Karl-Ludwig Ay, a non-notable historian from Munich who does not need to have a mention in this article because he is not prominent. The first version revolves around Bismarck and is thus more relevant to Bismarck's biography than Weber's. The second version relies on Mommsen who is certainly a prominent Weber scholar, but there are problems with that, too. The primary problem is that Mommsen's conclusions are not compared to other prominent historians who have strongly contrasting views. There is a whole article about Weber's liberalism—Interpretations of Weber's liberalism—where Mommsen says that Weber's ideas promoting a charismatic leader made it easier for Hitler to gain power in Germany. French sociologist Raymond Aron, for one, refutes Mommsen directly. The topic is much, much more complex than one paragraph taken from Mommsen alone.

A minor problem is that Mommsen's book Max Weber and German Politics, 1890–1920 was written based on Weber's published and unpublished writings, so the relevance of Mommsen's conclusions is more historiographic rather than fully contemporary to Weber's life. The unpublished writings would not have been known during Weber's life, nor would they have been known by others until 1959 when Mommsen first published his book. The unpublished essays by Weber would not have had any influence on the world in the 1920s, '30s, '40s and '50s. It was not until 1959 that Mommsen's book burst "like a bombshell on West German academia", according to German sociologist Uta Gerhardt.

Another problem is that Weber was politically ineffective, according to philosophy scholar Sung Ho Kim. The two versions shown above exaggerate Weber's political power. A further problem is that the level of detail is too high for a general summary of the topic. The first version is a deep dive into a minor part of Weber's life. The second version is not at all integrated with the existing biography.

The various IP editors who have been adding this sort of material have been acting in good faith, but the proffered text is wholly inadequate in each instance. I agree that the topic of Weber's liberalism and political development should be summarized in his biography, but with multiple voices and viewpoints, not just Mommsen's or Steinberg's. The Interpretations of Weber's liberalism article should be summarized here with scholarly breadth. Binksternet (talk) 20:39, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Update:

User:Binksternet makes his case directly and plainly. Noticing the spike on the page count stats yesterday, both of the edits appear to have respective merits. My suggestion might be that there is a two paragraph version of this edit, combining Binks's comments above with a condensed version of the two paragraphs blocked out above which might be more effective. Binks's Section title seems to the point and could be retained.

For this suggestion, the first paragraph would state the 1890 connection to Bismarck's ending of his conservative influence on the monarchy in one sentence and in that year. Period. The rest of the paragraph would cover a responsible summary of the Kim list of Weber's liberalism and his less than stellar ability as a statesman. Although Weber was not the most effective statesman he was after all chosen to represent Germany at both the Versailles treaty talks and the drafting of the Weimar Constitution. Weber was far from feckless as a statesman.

For the second paragraph my suggestion would be to follow Mommsen's rendering for following NPOV standards since Kim is so explicitly in contrast and would be given the first paragraph. Gerhart's highly motivated Parsons version of Weber seems largely to repeat much of what Kim states plainly and adequately. Similarly for Aron, since it is Kim and not Aron who writes a book-length study on Weber. The Ay material can be optional and you can suggest a call on it for inclusion or not in the second paragraph being described here. He is not at the stature of Mommsen or Steinberg, yet he was the chief administrator of the Weber archives in Germany for many years and had access to all of the original versions of the Weber texts and manuscripts. If this sounds workable then there could be an NPOV version edited for citation mark-up as needed. 72.68.5.132 (talk) 23:23, 17 September 2013 (UTC)


 * First of all, I support the temporary removal on the technical ground of insufficient references (missing page ranges), substandard for an article of GA+ quality. I think I agree with all prior comments, as in - we may be able to add a new paragraph based on revised removed paragraph modified as suggested here, but only if inline citations with page ranges are provided. It would also allow us to hopefully incorporate Interpretations of Weber's liberalism from see also directly into the body, an important to-do in the development of this article. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 03:07, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Update:

(Weber's political progression 1890-1920; text per discussion adding Radkau as well)

The last thirty years of Weber's life from 1890 to 1920, as documented by Steinberg and Mommsen, mark a gradual progression towards liberal constitutional democracy following the end of Bismarck's conservative diplomatic career as Germany's leading statesman in the decade ending in 1890. As summarized by J. Radkau and Sung Kim, Weber's political progression towards liberal democracy can be identified as passing through three distinct phases of growing disaffection with his own previously partial support of the limited parliamentary monarchy of Kaiser Wilhelm II. In the first distinct phase dating to 1895, Weber recognized the complacency of the monarchy which Radkau summarized stating that, "[...] in 1895 none other than Max Weber gave the 'initial push' in German public opinion for the turn to an impatient imperialism." This was followed by a second phase identified in Radkau's account by Weber's noting the inadequacy of the German constitutional monarchy. As Radkau summarized Weber's growing discontent with the Kaiser's complacency, "Was he [the Kaiser] at that time a convinced supporter of parliamentary rule? On the same occasion, he criticized that fact that the Kaiser was content with 'the appearance of power' (MSG II/5, 695). Later historians have liked to cite Weber as a key witness against Wilhelm II's 'personal regiment,' but what so angered him (Weber) about the Kaiser was not his striving for power but his failure to be a real man of power." Finally, for Radkau's account of the third phase of Weber's disassociation from Wilhelmine politics he applies a Heuse quote on Weber stating that, "Similarly, in Theodore Huese's view during the war: 'Weber feels under pressure, intellectually and as a matter of conscience, to be the opponent of this man Wilhelm II.' In the imaginary duel that so excited him, he (Weber) grew to the dimensions of a counter-Kaiser."

In Kim's account, the outcomes of WWI were instrumental in completing Weber's political progression towards liberal constitutional democracy during the period between 1890 to 1920. For Kim, Weber's opinion was centered on the assessment that Wilhelm II's position was mired in a "fervent antimodernism" which at best could only be called a "romantic-antimodernist reading" inherited from the Bismarck era of German politics before 1890. Weber final bitter comments on Bismarck are well established and were presented by him in his post-WWI essay "Parliament and Government" where he stated his last opinion as, "He [Bismarck] left a nation totally without political education [...] totally bereft of political will accustomed to expect that the great man at the top would provide their politics," with the italic text in Weber's original. Unlike Bismark before 1890 who had strongly supported monarchic Imperialism, according to Mommsen's interpretation Weber showed his originality of assessing the condition of Germany in the early twentieth century as needing to move as if inexorably to a parliamentary democratic state. This would be accomplished by the end of Weber's life with the new German Constitution of the parliamentary and democratic Weimar government.

References Mommsen, W. "Weber's Political Development Away from Imperialism," p121-128.

By agreement per above discussion. 72.68.5.132 (talk) 05:28, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Repeated and serial reverts against agreement discussed on Talk page, infraction by User:Binksternet:

WP:EW User:Binksternet is edit warring without making any attempt to log his reasons or purposes in the Talk log, which he has abandoned 2 days ago. WP:CIV User has used his User page to announce his anti-IP User position which is contra to User:Jimbo, it is an unconditional and blanket statement against all IP Users. WP:3RR User apparently believes that his "experience" level is an excuse for ignoring 3RR, see current count. WP:Ownership  User appears to believe that he has ownership rights over the Weber edit page and can revert without limit. WP:CIV User has been given three (3) versions of the edit following requests and is ignoring all of them. No attempt has been made to even try to mark with templates for citation of templates for clarification. WP:CIV User history shows contempt for agreement which has been discussed on the Talk page, which he has abandoned 2 days ago. WP:NPOV User has a specific bias to one Weber school (Aron) over and against all others. Users has been given the option to name his contra sources in order to include them by NPOV rules and he has refused. WP:Gaming While using the edit history dialogue to make reference to Talk page discussion, he uses this time to file a biased report for Page protection presently on Admin board.

A request is made for 3RR violation for these multiple reasons. Serial reverts have been over the last two weeks and appear to be unconstructive and without end. Also to request that any template privileges which User:Binksternet possesses be re-assessed because of the anti-IP User policy he has announced on his User page against policy of User:Jimbo. Possibly to temporarily suspend them for some time period while Admin has a chance to research his history to assess if this is an indiscriminate targeting of any other IP Users. A short edit history for serial revert purposes today is presented here for convenience of review:

16:37, 20 September 2013‎ Binksternet (talk | contribs)‎. . (117,821 bytes) (-3,692)‎. . (Undid revision 573795927 by 209.3.238.62 (talk) Revert. This text is being discussed on the talk page. There is no ticking bomb forcing us to hurry here. Let's wait for Piotrus to weigh in.) (undo)

(cur | prev) 16:14, 20 September 2013‎ 209.3.238.62 (talk)‎. . (121,513 bytes) (+3,692)‎. . (Multiple violations WP:EW, WP:3RR, WP:NPOV, WP:CIV... User has posted blatant attack on all IP users on his User page against policy and Contra User:Jimbo. Previous user is edit warring and has boycotted Talk page for 2 days. Admin oversight requested.) (undo)

(cur | prev) 12:29, 20 September 2013‎ Binksternet (talk | contribs)‎. . (117,821 bytes) (-3,690)‎. . (Undid revision 573769046 by 72.68.5.132 (talk) Revert... This is not about IP addresses, it is about talk page consensus which has not been reached yet.) (undo)

(cur | prev) 11:57, 20 September 2013‎ 72.68.5.132 (talk)‎. . (121,511 bytes) (+3,690)‎. . (→‎Later work: Restore text per Talk page agreement. Your anti-IPUser comments on your User page are against User:Jimbo. You have boycotted the Talk page discussion which was started 2 days ago and have added nothing to explain your revert against Talk.) (undo)

(cur | prev) 06:47, 20 September 2013‎ Binksternet (talk | contribs)‎. . (117,821 bytes) (-3,689)‎. . (Undid revision 573741628 by 72.68.5.132 (talk) Revert... discussion about this is still underway on the talk page. Please wait until agreement is reached.) (undo)

(cur | prev) 05:37, 20 September 2013‎ 72.68.5.132 (talk)‎. . (121,510 bytes) (+3,689)‎. . (→‎Later work: Restore text per Talk page agreement with Radkau added. See Talk page prior to edits.) (undo)

(cur | prev) 16:38, 19 September 2013‎ Johnpacklambert (talk | contribs)‎. . (117,821 bytes) (+30)‎. . (added Category:Men sociologists using HotCat) (undo)

(cur | prev) 20:39, 16 September 2013‎ Binksternet (talk | contribs)‎. . (117,791 bytes) (-1,276)‎. . (Revert again. See Talk:Max Weber#Weber's political progression 1890–1920. Make your case there. Gain consensus before re-adding this paragraph.) (undo)

(cur | prev) 19:07, 16 September 2013‎ 209.3.238.61 (talk)‎. . (119,067 bytes) (+1,276)‎. . (→‎Later: Your anti-IPUser comment on your User page is contra User:Jimbo. Any template privileges you may have can be re-assessed. If you have any pro or Contra citations on Mommsen put them on Talk and i will include them by NPOV rules, no WP:EW.) (undo)

(cur | prev) 18:38, 15 September 2013‎ Binksternet (talk | contribs) ‎

209.3.238.61 (talk) 19:30, 20 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Wow. I don't think posting a scatter-shot attack on me is going to encourage me to take part in collegial editing with you. If you wanted to achieve talk page consensus here, your strategy as shown so far appears to be against your best interest. Even so, I am interested in seeing the Weber biography improved as much as possible such that our readers are well served. I will be looking at your proposed article text in the next few days with regard to what it says and also what else it could say. I would like to see what Piotrus has to say about it. There is no deadline here, so there is no hurry to insert poorly composed or incomplete text about Weber's 1910s politics. Binksternet (talk) 19:59, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Nothing scattered here. Your serial reverts are part of the edit history. User:Piotrus has already responded since the 18th, has stated his concern for in-line page cites, and all of this has been done and placed on Talk for 2 days for anyone to mark up. If something looks poorly worded, then fix it. If you want more citations, then mark them with citation templates. You have done none of this. Admin is requested to restore this edit which was made with agreement on this Talk page, and which you are serially reverting by yourself and on your own well past 3RR. Each one of the directed items are renewed for Admin review. Your anti-IP user view published on your User page is odd and a request to have your history carefully examined by Admin is renewed. 209.3.238.62 (talk) 21:28, 20 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Scattered, yes, also wrong. Piotrus has not yet commented on your proposed text from 20 September. It amazes me that you are aggressively pushing this text on 21 September without giving Piotrus a few days to respond.
 * You wrote in an edit summary on the 20th: "Restore text per Talk page agreement". The "agreement" part is wrong. There has been no agreement reached on this talk page to put your proposed text into the article. The text is still under discussion.
 * The comment you made about me having a "specific bias to one Weber school (Aron) over and against all others" is ridiculous. There is no evidence for such an assumption. I am just an audio engineer, for crying out loud. I have no specific bias to one school of philosophy or sociology. This reaction of yours is revealing; it tells me that Aron is a hot button. I shall look further into Aron's writings on Weber, to see if a neutral assessment can be made of scholarly disputes about Weber.Binksternet suggesting editors be logged in.jpg
 * Your repeated reference to me making an "anti-IP" statement is wrong; there is a photo of me on my user page, the photo taken by Wikimedia Foundation product manager Fabrice Florin. The photo is a response to a question posed by Florin (and I paraphrase): "write down one thing you would like to see as an improvement to Wikipedia." I wrote down "!Require User Registration" by which I mean that I am in favor of Wikipedia having only registered users, no IP addresses allowed. My reason is that vandals would not have such a field day (really field decade) with disruptive edits. (Such a proposal has been made repeatedly and rejected repeatedly—I am knowingly voicing a quixotic position.) I am not against the people who contribute anonymously and constructively. In fact, for my first six years on Wikipedia I was effectively anonymous editing as "Binksternet", with nobody certain of my real name.
 * Your request for administrative involvement here is not likely to result in you getting your way without ever having established a consensus. Instead, you will likely be advised to start a WP:Request for comment to get input from the wider community. Binksternet (talk) 22:07, 20 September 2013 (UTC)


 * If there is a problem of edit warring, it should be reported to the edit warring noticeboard. On the other hand, to help with the dispute, I suggest either the dispute resolution noticeboard, or a resquest for comment. PhilKnight (talk) 09:12, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

For this suggestion, the first paragraph would state the 1890 connection to Bismarck's ending of his conservative influence on the monarchy in one sentence and in that year. Period. The rest of the paragraph would cover a responsible summary of the Kim list of Weber's liberalism and his less than stellar ability as a statesman. Although Weber was not the most effective statesman he was after all chosen to represent Germany at both the Versailles treaty talks and the drafting of the Weimar Constitution. Weber was far from feckless as a statesman.

For the second paragraph my suggestion would be to follow Mommsen's rendering for following NPOV standards since Kim is so explicitly in contrast and would be given the first paragraph. Gerhart's highly motivated Parsons version of Weber seems largely to repeat much of what Kim states plainly and adequately. Similarly for Aron, since it is Kim and not Aron who writes a book-length study on Weber. The Ay material can be optional and you can suggest a call on it for inclusion or not in the second paragraph being described here. He is not at the stature of Mommsen or Steinberg, yet he was the chief administrator of the Weber archives in Germany for many years and had access to all of the original versions of the Weber texts and manuscripts. If this sounds workable then there could be an NPOV version edited for citation mark-up as needed. 72.68.5.132 (talk) 23:23, 17 September 2013 (UTC)


 * First of all, I support the temporary removal on the technical ground of insufficient references (missing page ranges), substandard for an article of GA+ quality. I think I agree with all prior comments, as in - we may be able to add a new paragraph based on revised removed paragraph modified as suggested here, but only if inline citations with page ranges are provided. It would also allow us to hopefully incorporate Interpretations of Weber's liberalism from see also directly into the body, an important to-do in the development of this article. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 03:07, 18 September 2013 (UTC) 209.3.238.61 (talk) 16:08, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

I still support removal of on technical grounds, namely - last paragraph is partially unreferenced. The refs are also poorly formated (please use Citation templates), through in itself this is not a reason for removal. Regarding the content itself, I am not familiar enough with the topic to offer much assistance, it looks ok for me, but I am not an expert on Weber. User:Binksternet, could you briefly tell me what's wrong with the content? What I gather from your critique above is that you think it's WP:UNDUE weight, and tries to pass WP:FRINGE interpretations as mainstream - is this correct? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 04:41, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

For Petrus and constructive editors: No difficulty adding the Petrus citation supplements on publisher info, and any other citations requested. Just use the templates to mark them into the text above. 209.3.238.61 (talk) 19:57, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Weber on rational action
I have summarized Weber's contribution to defining rational action in Instrumental and value-rational action. I welcome comments.TBR-qed (talk) 15:37, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Politics as a vocation? Lutheran ethics and capitalism?
The original title in German is: 'Politik wie Beruf, Wiessenschaft wie Beruf'; even when: 'Beruf', has its roots in the verb: 'Anrufen': 'Calling', and this equals to: 'Vocation', that is: 'Calling/ being called', in Latin; the German meaning of the title could be adequately translated only as: 'Politics as a job, science as a profession'; 'job' and 'profession' have the same meaning to the German: 'Beruf'. In this book, Max Weber stated the following: 'Those who want entering politics must put themselves under the devil's commands'. (Sorry, I can't retrieve the page right now). This is going much further than the US sentence that points: 'Politics is a fishy business'.

Not having had time yet to read the book about Capitalism and Lutheran ethics, I'd say that Calvinism, the way of Lutheranism that is highly supported in the Scandinavian countries, has a certain disdain for material pleasures in life, in this, being a bit close to Cathars, Albigensians. The movie: 'Babette's feast', shows the Calvinist austerity very well, perhaps, the place where wealth is considered as an evidence of the Lord Blessings, pre-ante-or-destination, in the expression used by Mark Twain, and the promise for the future life, may be rather the Old Testament, the process may be like the geometrical inversion in the Wankel engine, if righteousness yields wealth, if I obtain wealth, this is an evidence and a way for salvation.

Is there a carryover effect in sociology and study of religions? The concept of an early magic times cited in Max Weber is found in Law Philosophers as Hans Kelsen, who said, wrongly, that shamanism preceded religion, when today, the prevailing idea may be that religion and shamanism were always independent and mutually exclusive systems, also, peculiar comments exist about the 'Origins of capitalism', as those by Warner Sombart, in: 'Jews and economy life', cited by Jose Meir Estrugo in his book about Sephardim, 'If Jews had been chased from Spain a generation before 1492, Spaniards wouldn't have been in the condition of discovering America, as Jews were the ones who financed the expedition, and if they had been expelled a century later, the wealth of fugitives would have not promoted the Dutch, the English, and the German capitalism, but the Spanish one', also the Madrid-based economist and university teacher, Juan Velarde-Fuertes, wrote a book about: 'The libertine and the birth of capitalism', that is mainly a catalog of European erotic literature. Is there a place for this type of add-ons in this section? Comments? Thanks, regards, + Salut--Caula (talk) 23:22, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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Weber and faith
Do we know what his personal religious views were? &thinsp;&mdash; Mr. Guye (talk) (contribs)&thinsp; 19:12, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I read that he was "religiously 'unmusical'" . &#8213; Matthew J. Long -Talk-☖  20:04, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

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Scholars influenced by Weber
As a student of sociology, I sincerely salute all of your hard work on such a foundational figure of the discipline. I'm currently doing a run-through of the article, looking for things that potentially merit improvement. One thing I noticed is that there were some names under the "influenced" section of the infobox that are not mentioned in the main text. Since Template:Infobox academic said that "those that are not mentioned in the main text are subject to deletion," I deleted those names. They include:

Edward Shils

Cornelius Castoriadis

Karl Polanyi

Gregory Areshian

Neil Smelser

Guillermo O'Donnell, which also had the following reference:

Feel free to add them back and mention them in the main text, if you find it advisable.--Tommyren (talk) 01:36, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

"Part of a series on capitalism"
This article has a sidebar saying that it's part of a series on capitalism. Capitalism certainly plays an important, perhaps central, role in Weber's work. However, if capitalism can receive a sidebar treatment here, I wonder why there shouldn't be a sidebar for religion, for sociology, and for Germany. Fellow editors, I am listing several options here for your deliberation:

1. Change the capitalism sidebar to a sociology sidebar, which I personally think is most fitting for this article.

2. Let's not have a sidebar at all. Note that scholars of similar stature, such as Karl Marx and Émile Durkheim, both have no sidebar.

3. Are multiple sidebars allowed?

4. Let's just leave everything as it is. --Tommyren (talk) 02:00, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I'd support your first option above, change the sidebar from Capitalism to Sociology. Thank you for reviewing the current status of the article. warshy (¥¥) 15:46, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I am between option 1 and option 2, leaning toward 2. I suspect that Marx and Durkheim, like Weber, would be hard to fit into one box without doing injustice to another strong tradition they're a part of. I have no strong objection to any option except 3, which feels like it might be cluttered. Protonk (talk) 20:03, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I changed it to a Sociology sidebar. Tommyren (talk) 13:46, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Actually, after seeing what it looks like, I am now opting for not having a sidebar at all. The Sociology sidebar makes the lead section--which already seems a bit bloated--even more bloated. It spills over into the next section! Also There has been discussions on the sociology sidebar's talk page about whether it really meets the requirements laid out here in Categories, lists, and navigation templates. Tommyren (talk) 14:12, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Protonk (talk) 20:40, 1 August 2021 (UTC)