Talk:Maximilian Kolbe/Archive 1

Redundant patronage?
Among those to whom he serves as patron saint are listed "imprisoned people" and "prisoners". Can the difference between the two be clarified? --Anivron 07:21, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

According to http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintm01.htm he is the patron saint of prisoners, and political-prisoners. Does that help?

Sample Prayer
I recently redid the infobox using the infobox template. At that time, I left the existing prayer in the Sample Prayer Column. When I looked at the Infobox Saints template, it says:

prayer       A prayer by the saint, or a characteristic prayer to the saint. prayer_attrib Source or description of the prayer. The purpose of the prayer is to show a                       well-known work by the saint, or to illustrate the beliefs of the faith community that venerates him or her. The prayer will therefore not be                        displayed unless this parameter is present.

St. Kolbe is famous for his devotion to Mary as the Immaculate Conception. He is well known as the founder of the religious movement called the Militia of the Immaculata movement of Marian Consecration, usually shortened to the MI. Thus it seems to me that it would naturally follow that the prayer composed by him titled the Solemn Act of Consecration to the Immaculate  would characterise him better than the present prayer, which is a part of the Chaplet for the Intercession of St. Kolbe. Thus I post this asking your opinion. Do you think that it would be good if the present prayer is replaced with the Act of Consecration, or let them both be included? Yours, Savio mit electronics 05:02, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Beard Relic
Here (in the fifth post from the top) is a great story about St. Kolbe's beard. Too bad it can't be cited as a verifiable source (it is on a bulletin board). Does anyone have a verifiable source for this story, like a book or some other website that is not a forum? Yours, Savio mit electronics 05:06, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Athlete
If I'm not mistaken, St. Max was something of an athlete in his younger days. Perhaps a soccer player. I'll find out more about that. I know that he was in tremendous physical shape.

Antisemitism
Hello. Your article about Kolbe doesn't say anything about his antisemitistic attitude that he had and that makes Kolbe such an ambivalent and interresting historic person. If you understand German you should take a look at the article in the German WP. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.180.8.101 (talk) 21:33, 18 March 2007 (UTC).


 * This is an area of some dispute. Still he apparently had a hostility to the Jewish faith, as was common for Catholics of his day, and gave credence to conspiracy theories concerning Jewish cabals working with Freemasons. It's not entirely clear whether he believed these Jewish conspiracies represented Jews or only concerned a leading element of them. To my dismay though I'd have to concede it looks like he was Anti-Semitic, or at least Anti-Judaic, for much of his life. That said he rejected any racial hostility to Jews and during the war he may have had a change of heart. It's fairly established that during the war he did aid Jews and did so whether they converted or not.--T. Anthony 11:16, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

What kind of anti-semite is it who saves Jews from the Nazis? A hostility to a belief is not the same as hostility to the believers. Ulysses54 07:43, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

RE: Ulyssess, interestingly, that assertion that he saved thousands of Jews has no footnote or reference. He could well have, but it should be backed by an independent source. After all, anyone can say or write just about anything. And yes, Kolbe's early antisemitism is notoriously absent here. philosopher2king 11/14/07

Hello, I do believe Max Kolbe, the young priest, would be considered anti-Jewish in some senses. That is, early on in his career as a priest and brother. I read a childrens book (or rather, book geared towards 10-12 year olds) several years ago that incidentally addressed this. I am about to read a biography of St. Max. I do believe he did some growing in the regard of Jews and by the thirties had greatly moved past his mistrust of Jews.

24.143.70.192 He was indeed VERY anti-Jewish (as opposed to "in some senses"). When a young priest he published a Catholic magazine in which he often and severely attacked and blamed Jews with the old litany of accusations... I'll do some research and will update the entry. Having said that, I don't think anyone can go through a place like Auschwitz and not re-evaluate one's life deeply; he did die a saint.

Regardless of wether he was a good or bad person or wether he changed his views at the end of his life, the mission of the encyclopedia in not to protect the subject's reputation nor to condemn. The Polish site has a very well balanced and thoughtful synopsis of the anti-semitism debate surrounding Kolbe, but unfortunately lacks sources. The subject should be included in the article because it is a part of Kolbe's legacy. Crestodina (talk) 13:31, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Feast day
I tried to find something to confirm that 30 feb was his feast day, but everything I could find indicates that his date of death 14 august is his feast day that's just 3... but I found many more with that date rather than the Feb date. Also, I have yet to see anything about his being the patron saint of Power Workers. Does anybody know where that came from?Balloonman 06:36, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Pretty sure it wasn't 30 February ;-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.14.104.198 (talk) 03:50, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Franciszek Gajowniczek
For those who are interested, I created the page on the man Kolbe saved. Feel free to come by and help it out.Balloonman 07:21, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Miracles
What sort of miracles did he perform? I think it should be listed.

Familiy
The phrase "the son of a Polish family with partial German origin" sounds akward. To state that "his father was an ethnic German, his mother of Polish origin" is more to the point. 84.59.37.181 14:04, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Article tone

 * During the time in the cell he led the men in songs and prayer. After three weeks of dehydration and starvation, only Kolbe and three others were still alive. Father Maximilian's death was heroic. He did not whine, nor murmer. He encouraged others that they would soon be with Mary in heaven.

This passage, in turn, is a bit hyperbolic, as opposed to encyclopedic, and needs to be toned down.


 * When Rajmond Kolbe was a child he was naughty, often getting into trouble. When one time his mother asked "What ever shall I do with you?", he thought deeply about it. He prayed to Mary, asking the same question, and had a vision of her. In the vision Mary was holding two crowns, a red one and a white one. Mary asked him which he desired, the white crown for purity, or the red crown for martyrdom. Rajmond chose both, and from then on he behaved well, for he had decided what to do with his life.

Also, this passage presents things as if they de facto actually happened, which doesn't quite conform to WP policy. 213.243.175.171 (talk) 08:57, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Legacy section
Is there a real need to list churches named after kolbe? I mean, there are probably scores of them. I know of a few not listed. He might not have as many of Ignatius of Loyola, but come on, he's a St. And churches are named after saints. I think we can do away with that section.--- Balloonman  PoppaBalloon 07:20, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Circular Reference
The 9th Reference lists Wikipedia as it's sole source. Does anyone have an alternate source? Deviantpdx (talk) 04:49, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Death
In this article, there is: 'Some who were present at the injection say that he raised his left arm and calmly waited for the injection. He died soon after.'

As far as I know, lethal injection in Auschwitz were carried out by injecting phenol directly in victim's heart. Who did the author meant, when he wrote 'Some who were present at the injection say..'? Probably the germans who killed father Kolbe:/ Can anybody correct this statement? I am not an registered user and my edits will be most probably rolled back. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.198.76.130 (talk) 11:10, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * "As far as I know" does not make for proper editing. You need something to back up your understanding. Marauder40 (talk) 14:45, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your comment. Note, that the person who wrote this sentence should also provide the source of information. But nevermind, here we have the source:
 * http://pl.auschwitz.org.pl/h/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=23&Itemid=27&limit=1&limitstart=9 (link valid 17 June 2009)
 * This is the link for web site of Auschwitz-Birkenau Museum - unfortunately (for those who do not understand) in polish language. In the english version (http://en.auschwitz.org.pl) it is not explicitly written that the injection was administered directly in the heart.

My guess is is that they are trying to show how clam he was about the whole matter but you are probally right. Change if you want to i guess. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jacobgreen35 (talk • contribs) 21:20, 10 December 2009 (UTC) And... and nothing happened. So this page will still contain not acurate information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.198.76.130 (talk) 12:01, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

If no one's acting you can add it yourself. 99.244.97.75 (talk) 03:12, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Mistakes
There may be several minor mistakes in the sum-up section if you see one please fix it. Thanks!


 * Honestly your "sum-up" looks like a school project. Per WP standards articles do not contain "sum-ups". Summaries of articles appear in the lead (i.e. the paragraph at the beginning of the article) and are usually short and to the point.  Facts added to the article need to be sourced.  Please read the links added on your talk page.  Welcome to WP. Marauder40 (talk) 21:24, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

(random comment)
he was a martyr —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.21.42.67 (talk) 14:49, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Accurate Times
Is there a source to the statement that he survived 3 weeks without any water?131.128.220.200 (talk) 02:37, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Considering that, according to the article, he celebrated Mass with bread and wine, it would suggest he may not have been without water. (79.190.69.142 (talk) 16:20, 12 November 2010 (UTC))
 * And then we even have his real cause of death, which runs contrary to the legend:

http://i.imgur.com/TBSKmnL.jpg --197.229.235.114 (talk) 17:54, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Westminster Cathedral
The image displayed is definitely not St. Maximilian Kolbe, as anyone can see from comparing the image with all other images of the saint, in which he is clean shaven and wears glasses.86.44.89.116 (talk) 20:22, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I've reinserted the image of the statue at Westminster Abbey. It certainly is Kolbe, as per the inscription in its base (visible in the full-sized image). True, he is usually depicted as clean shaven and wearing glasses, but for much of his life he had a long beard as was usual for certain Franciscans. See, for instance, this image and also this. I imagine the omission of the glasses is due to the difficulty of craving glasses in stone. The statue is also clearly identified as depicting Maximilian Kolbe on the sculptor's own website. ANB (talk) 15:31, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

In those days, Conventual Franciscans (at least in Poland)typically wore their hair cropped quite short. However, when they went to mission territories, they were allowed to grow their beards. (Nowadays they can have beards or not, as they wish, but in Poland, anyway, they usually aren't allowed to start a beard until well into their novitiate year; it's up to the novice-master to decide. I know this from the assistant novice-master of the Conventual Franciscans in Poland in the Kraków Province. By the way, something you may not be able to discern from black-and-white photographs is that Conventual Franciscans in their home countries wear black habits, but wear grey ones when they are in the mission field.) Maximilian went to Japan for the first time in 1930. He returned to Poland and traveled to India between 1930 and 1936, all the while continuing to let his beard grow. Finally, in 1936, he returned to Niepokalanów when he was made the 'guardian' ('head' of a friary, something like 'abbot' in a monastery) of Niepokalanów. He retained his beard until the outbreak of World War II, when he was told by his provincial to shave it off. This information comes from the Polish text, 'Chronologia życia św. Maksymiliana Marii Kobego' or 'The Chronology of the Life of St Maximilian Kolbe' and from the archivist at Niepokalanów (a document sent to me by the archivist). You can find the story of his beard - and how it survived as a first-class relic - on this webpage: http://www.pastoralcentre.pl/first-class-relics-st-maximilian-kolbe/ This is why you sometimes see him with a very long beard and sometimes see him clean-shaven. The length of his beard dates the pictures as being taken during or after his time in Japan.NuncioInter (talk) 18:36, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Please don't revert edits wholesale
I made a number of mild copy edits to make the piece read better. If you object to some of them, feel free to edit them back again, but please do not revert my edit wholesale merely because I did not enter each one individually with its own explanatory line!86.44.89.116 (talk) 20:24, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Canonization
I've altered this "given that a Christian martyr is one who is killed in odium Fidei while Kolbe was not murdered strictly out of hatred for the Faith" as the linked page is clear martyrdom is is anyone "who is killed for following Christianity", not just out of odium fidei, while Kolbe's death was as a direct result of his following his Christian beliefs. But I also want to raise the issue of the next paragraph "Pope John Paul canonized him as a martyr over his commission's findings" Does this mean the commission rejected him as a martyr? It isn't clear. Does anyone know? Moonraker12 (talk) 12:11, 28 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I know it is true that Kolbe does not fit the traditional definition of martyr because his death did not directly come about by the definition. I haven't heard that the Pope JPII overrode any commission or anything like that.  I think what happened is that a commission determined that he wasn't a martyr in the strict sense of the definition. I know that instead of being declared a martyr he was declared a "Martyr of Charity".  I will see if I can find the appropriate sources, but it might take a little time due to a death in the family.  The following is a link that talks about him being declared a "Martyr of Charity" http://www.passionistnuns.org/Saints/StMaxKolbe/index.htm Marauder40 (talk) 14:06, 28 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Kolbe's death was a true piece of self-sacrifice. But in no way does it meet the criteria for martyrdom. JHobson3 (talk)


 * The point is here that while he was imprisoned for following the Faith, he was at least directly not killed for it. Non-Jewish non-Gypsy concentration camp inmates suffered tyrannical and brutal regime with many deaths resulting; one of these brutal measures was the collective punishment here in question: but they were not directly marked for extermination. The direct cause for his death was his volunteering up to a) save a father of family and b) make sure those selected for death had a priest at hand in their last hour. Pope Bl. Paul VI. acted on what literally follows from that and beatified him as a Confessor; Pope St. John Paul II. declared him a martyr on canonization, which might be called a sort of "honorary title", but not an unjustified one, consisting as it does of "counting one and one together" that i) the imprisonment that led to all this was out of hatred of the Faith and ii) the manifestly saintly action did result in his death.--131.159.76.179 (talk) 17:14, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Ethnicity
In the first paragraph, "was a Pole of German ethnic heritage" was changed to, "was a Polish..." The original was a hard reading and I find the statement questionable. I left the statement in the following paragraph concerning Julius Kolbe being an ethnic German, although I added a citation needed tag. Hopefully a substantial reference can be provided. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jamortify (talk • contribs) 06:47, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Two weeks vs. 10 days vs. a week
An IP editor keeps trying to change the number of days that Maximilian Kolbe was in the underground bunker. Please provide a reliable source for your changes. The current source in that section for the story says. "At every inspection, when almost all the others were now lying on the floor, Fr Kolbe was seen kneeling or standing in the centre as he looked cheerfully in the face of the S. S. men. Two weeks passed in this way. Meanwhile one after another they died, until only Fr Kolbe was left. This the authorities felt was too long; the cell was needed for new victims. So one day they brought in the head of the sick-quarters, a German, a common criminal named Bock, who gave Fr Kolbe an injection of carbolic acid in the vein of his left arm." Marauder40 (talk) 13:09, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 10 October 2012
There is a reference to the "Giordano Brunisti" in this article. You should cross-reference this to your wiki entry on "Giordano Bruno" for completness as "Brunisti" does not search or google very well but the reference is readily available inside your Wiki itself.

Thx. 216.191.234.70 (talk) 16:14, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done. Wikified. &mdash; KuyaBriBri Talk 18:45, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Non-specific edit request
At one time this article was easily readable by non-Catholics, but now this article is so "Catholic" that it's almost unintelligible to the non-Catholic reader. For instance, it's not apparent to outsiders that Maximilian was following basic Paulian Christian principles when giving his life for another. The article gets bogged down in legalistic arguments about martyrdom. It's not clear that Maximilian was a normal Christian rather than an manic obsessive driven by Catholic visions and Mary-ism. His life was an inspiration to others, but instead this article is simple a mystical screed for Catholics only. Previously this article could be used by young people as input in their various holocaust school assignments, but now it's hopelessly legalistic and mystical. Can anything be done to make Maximilian's story more universal again? Santamoly (talk) 16:48, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Could you point out where in the entry you feel that this is the case? What do you mean by "Paulian"? Daniel the Monk (talk) 15:51, 12 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Sure, no problem. Start with the second & third paragraphs in the lede: "Kolbe was canonized on 10 October 1982 by Pope John Paul II, and declared a martyr of charity. He is the patron saint of drug addicts, political prisoners, families, journalists, prisoners, and the pro-life movement. Pope John Paul II declared him "The Patron Saint of Our Difficult Century".
 * "Due to Kolbe's efforts to promote consecration and entrustment to Mary, he is known as the Apostle of Consecration to Mary."


 * This is extremely esoteric Catholic content that means nothing to the average non-Catholic reader who might benefit from knowing about Maximilian Kolbe. An act of true mercy would be for an editor to delete these entire paragraphs, plus the following in the next section: "Kolbe's life was strongly influenced by a childhood vision of the Virgin Mary that he later described: That night, I asked the Mother of God what was to become of me, a Child of Faith. Then she came to me holding two crowns, one white, the other red. She asked me if I was willing to accept either of these crowns. The white one meant that I should persevere in purity, and the red that I should become a martyr. I said that I would accept them both."


 * Some Catholics become obsessive about visions of Mary without quite realizing that other less mystical, even ordinary, Christians can benefit from knowing about brave Christians who have gone before them. It was Paul who said that there is no finer act than to gives one's life for another.  Just leave out the visions and flighty bits - so that Maximilian's story can be read and shared easily by others who may not be so "advanced" as the Catholics.


 * While the data might be a bit confusing to some, perhaps many, as a encyclopedia it seems worth listing the information for those to whom it would be relevant, which could include those who do not subscribe to that particular form of religious thought. I think Kolbe's description of his vision is particularly relevant simply on a biographical basis, since it was a major motivation in his later life, given in his own words.
 * In point of fact, the phrase about giving one's life is not from St. Paul. They are words of Christ, as recorded in the Gospels. But, given this is a completely open site, can you come up with a phrasing or format which might make it clearer to other like yourself? Daniel the Monk (talk) 03:38, 14 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Thing is, the technical questions around his martyrdom (to put it colloquially: whether a priest should wear white or red when celebrating him) are a singular case and as such worthy of report. The thing is also, that the pre-WWII life of St. Maximilian is of remarkable importance, I might even say to put it colloquially, could have resulted in a canonization even if he had died peacefully in his bed (though not a so quick one), with the Militia Immaculatae and all that. If the request is to put these in separate paragraphs with headlines, as I believe is currently being done: that's fair. But cut it out to highlight some other heroic, even very heroic, act of his life (which, by the way, most people know anyway)? No.--131.159.76.179 (talk) 17:22, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Experience in Prision
Is there any source for the events that happened within the prison cell? It makes sense that he would have celebrated mass since he was a priest. It makes sense that he would have sang hymns. But do we have any source for specifically what was said. For example, if a source can't be found, I would like to remove the portion that says "and encouraged them by telling them they would soon be with Mary in Heaven." I cannot believe that we could have a source for what was said in the prison specifically enough to attribute this phrase with Maximilian Kolbe since all of the prisoners died. Chip (talk) 17:41, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Priests in Auschwitz were not supplied with materials for celebrating Mass. It was an extermination camp: the aim was to kill people immediately by execution or slowly by starvation and work. There is information from a guard or guards of Maximilian singing and encouraging other prisoners, but I don't at the moment have the source. If you have specific questions about Maximilian's life or last days, you can contact the archivists at Niepokalanów in Poland at this address: archiwum@niepokalanow.pl. There is an English-speaking (American) archivist who can help you.NuncioInter (talk) 18:24, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Extermination camp is a technical term for the "kill immediately" part, with only the camp structure required for that effort (as at Treblinka); Auschwitz was both an extermination camp and a regular concentration camp, and in this case we are talking about it in the second rôle; which is why the father St. Maximilian stepped in for thought he would be able to see his family again in the first place. I do not know whether priests were supplied with bread and wine (or consecrated oils for the last rites for that matter) in Auschwitz; however, they were in Dachau (at least the former two).--131.159.76.179 (talk) 17:29, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

First-Class Relics of St. Maximilian Kolbe
NuncioInter (talk) 18:09, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to add the following information the the page for Maximilian Kolbe:

First-class relics of St. Maximilian Kolbe are hairs from his head and beard, preserved without Fr Maximilian’s knowledge by two friars at Niepokalanów who served as barber between 1930 and 1941. Since his beatification in 1971, more than 1,000 first-class relics have been distributed around the world for public veneration. Second-class relics such as Fr. Maximilian’s personal effects, clothing and liturgical vestments, are preserved in his cell and a chapel at Niepokalanów and may be viewed by visitors. Parishes and religious institutions wishing to obtain a first-class relic for public veneration should apply to the Guardian of the friary at Niepokalanów. The source for this information is: http://www.pastoralcentre.pl/first-class-relics-st-maximilian-kolbe/

NuncioInter (talk) 18:09, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Not done: Although this page is semi-protected, your user rights currently allow you to edit it yourself. I notice that at least one of the claims (more than 1000) is not supported by that source. Also, per our style guide, we do not use honorifics (like Fr and St) or first names after the initial mention at the beginning of the article. Thanks, Celestra (talk) 02:55, 4 December 2013 (UTC)