Talk:Maynard James Keenan/Archive 2

WikiProject Tool workspace
Because of the length of most of these sections, and the fact that I'm just talking to myself in most of them, I'm going to condense most of them.  Lara  ❤  Love  03:40, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Restructure
Those years with more than one even may not be in order. I've not checked dates. Thoughts?  Lara  ❤  Love  18:37, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
 * This isn't going to be able to happen. It's just too much going on concurrently. I attempted to restructure chronologically but it became very confusing and very difficult to create an sort of flow. I think that the current format is best for this particular biography considering the number of projects runnings all at once.  Lara  ❤  Love  03:21, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed. –Pomte 05:21, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Print sources
I've still got PDFs to look through. But this is a start, for sure.  Lara  ❤  Love  03:40, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Armies of one Spin. Nov 2007.  Lara  ❤  Love  05:48, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Maynard's Mother's death
Would somebody care to revert this section under Early Life? It's well documented that she passed away in 2003. He was eleven when she became partially paralyzed. The person who wrote the article that was cited is a pretty piss-poor writer if he doesn't bother to check his story. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.234.135.211 (talk)


 * Feel free to contribute. Don't attack authors. Sign your posts. Have fun. the_undertow talk  02:21, 17 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I'm a chick by the way. So that should be "pretty piss-poor writer if she doesn't bother to check her story." Really, I read the news article and it stated that his mother died when he was 11. Thanks for the sweet note, though. It's corrected now. You're welcome.  Lara  ❤  Love  05:31, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Hey, just an fyi, guys - I wasn't refering to LaraLove. I meant the author of the article she referenced. I *did* actually bother going to read it before posting my comment. Whoever wrote the article she cited didn't bother doing his/her reference too well, since they said that she died when Maynard was 11. No attack or offense was intended towards you, Lara. I'm sorry I wasn't more clear in what I said. Gomen.

Also, as far as signing posts goes, I haven't set up an account, as I only edit wikipedia on rare occasions. Sorry if anybody thought I was hiding or attacking other users. Peace to all... 71.234.135.211 (talk) 11:10, 17 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Ah, thanks for the clarification, 71.234. And you should sign your posts even if you're not registered, as you did there, because it allows users to contact you via your talk page. Also, be bold in making changes. :)  Lara  ❤  Love  16:07, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

It would be nice, but doubtful, if there is a reliable source relating this incident to the eleven in "jimmy". –Pomte 20:31, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll look for it, but I agree, it's doubtful.  Lara  ❤  Love  05:22, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Jennifer Ferguson
There are few mentions of her, even on t.d.n.



has Howerdel saying that "Brena" originates from around 1990. It is uncertain whether the title came from Maynard at a later time. –Pomte 21:18, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The link requires registration to view the full article. I hate when they do that.  Lara  ❤  Love  14:14, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Still, it's free and much preferable to paid/subscription-based sites. Has sent me 0 emails in total. –Pomte 14:47, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Contributions and other appearances
Why are these lists not achievable? He is a musician, he is notable for being a musician, and so his work as a musician should be listed. Seems more relevant than all the biographical information. –Pomte 13:53, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * In looking over listed Featured Articles, I don't see lists like these. In fact, for musicians that are band members with solo careers on the side, they only list the discography of their solo career, see John Frusciante for example. The article lists his solo albums and there is a main article link to his extended discography, which includes all albums including those of Red Hot Chili Peppers. I think Maynard's is long enough that it warrants its own article.  Lara  ❤  Love  14:10, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Please note that I had no problem with the removal of the Tool/APC/Puscifer lists, since that content is covered by their respective discographies. Maynard James Keenan discography in its current state is redundant and the labels and release info don't seem pertinent enough. What I want to argue for is the inclusion of his other work from the diff I linked. –Pomte 20:09, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree that the info should be included somewhere - it is both verifiable and informative to the reader. Is there any objections to adding the once-off/minor contribs to the discography article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skomorokh (talk • contribs) 20:21, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The thing about it is that Maynard isn't a studio guy. He's showed up to sing a line in so many appearances it looks more like a trivia section. There is also a question of notability with several of those appearances. It's inevitably a list that will never be satisfied, as long as he is making cameos. As far as more relevant than his biographical info, I would say that I respectfully disagree. I think people visit an individuals page to read the bio of that individual, and the efforts for which he is notable seem to have good inclusion in this article. I'm open to a List of Appearances if that's of interest? the_undertow   talk  06:02, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Note, I don't want to say that me being 'open' is my way of saying we can't put it back into the article. I was just making a suggestion. I'll go along with whatever consensus is. My bad. the_undertow   talk  06:06, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Sections
After discussion with LaraLove on IRC, I think we need to adjust the sections. In their current condition, their is technically only one proper section, which makes up several sub and sub sub so-to-speak sections. I suggest maybe splitting the comedy performances up into one section, then doing each appearance in a TV programme in a new line. It would make the article look a lot more organised, in my view, but I'm open to discussion. Qst 17:02, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Makes sense. "Biography" is often dubious in a biography. –Pomte 17:25, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I've trimmed it a bit. The comedy section needs to be restructured before those are removed. I'll work on that now.  Lara  ❤  Love  20:58, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, I can be found in #Ariel'scorner if you have time to come on to IRC, LaraLove. Qst 21:10, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Section Merge
Anyone else think it would be a good idea to somewhat merge 'Early Life' and 'Personal Life' sections somehow? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.68.181.242 (talk) 06:02, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Typically they are separate. It starts with the early life (pre-notability), leads into their career, followed up by the personal life, which is typically any non-career-related info and whatever they are currently doing. Keeps a chronological order.  Lara  ❤  Love  06:10, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I think more information should be included regarding Maynard's drug abuse and obsessions. Perhaps an entire new section should be created dedicated to the abnormalities that often accompanied his artistic streaks of genius... ? Just a suggestion. Elle
 * Have any reliable sources to pull the information from? لenna  vecia  17:51, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Reference formatting
Grouping ref info for multiple refs into one makes for a very confusing note. Perhaps for those of say three or more in one, we can add a statement and bullet the refs as exampled in my most recent edit. Thoughts, ideas?  Lara  ❤  Love  20:51, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I would have gone for line breaks with &lt;br>, but this looks more organized. –Pomte 00:21, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

GA on hold
Powderfinger > Tool.
 * "Keenan would only see him a "little more than once a year"." - does his need a quote?
 * "and realizing that he would not go through West Point "undetected" for his dissidence" - what's all this about dissidence? First mention...yeah
 * The definition of dissidence is "Disagreement, as of opinion or belief; dissent." The previous section of this sentence reads, "but declined an appointment to West Point and instead chose to pursue a music career due to disillusionment over his colleagues' points of view".
 * Yeah, I suck. dihydrogen monoxide (H20) 10:38, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * "Tool released their 1993 debut album, Undertow, in the United States" - what a crappy album title :D Ass.
 * Rather than just slamming in a The Metal Observer quote, why not talk about the merits of Ænima?
 * Because this article is about Maynard, not Ænima.
 * Yeah, I suck. dihydrogen monoxide (H20) 10:38, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You might want to note that "Ænema" is not the album title. I got confused!
 * It is noted. The start of the paragraph reads "In October 1996, the band released their second studio album, Ænima, ..." That clearly states the album as being spelled with an 'i'.
 * I wouldn't call it clear, but yeah. Maybe I need a bathrobe; I hear they improve vision. dihydrogen monoxide (H20) 10:38, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * "Keenan had this to say" - change to "Keenan said" or similar
 * "However, 10,000 Days was received less favorably by critics than its predecessor Lateralus had been." - Why?
 * People can go to the article for the band or album for that information. This is about Maynard.
 * I've heard of A Perfect Circle, which gives me the feeling there might be more info about them. I may be wrong...
 * It's in their article. Tool has been given due weight, considering most of his adult life has been spent as a member of Tool. The past 18 years. APC was just formed in the last eight.
 * Makes sense. dihydrogen monoxide (H20) 10:38, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * "In 2003, they eventually released a successful follow-up, titled Thirteenth Step, a reference to twelve-step programs (many of the songs were written from the perspective of recovery)" - Remove the brackets and reword (it isn't clear at the moment)
 * I don't understand the confusion.
 * It'd probably read better IMO as "Eventually, in 2003, they released a successful follow-up, titled Thirteenth Step, a reference to the twelve-step programs that many songs were written as a reference too." (or similar). dihydrogen monoxide (H20) 10:38, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * "Puscifer also contributed a song to the Underworld sequel in 2006, Underworld: Evolution, on a "The Undertaker (Renholder Mix)"" - the "on a" makes no sense here
 * "Renholder being the reverse of "Re: D Lohner" (a random email title "Regarding: Danny Lohner"). - needs ref, and clarification per the above....(maybe it's just me)
 * "arrangement of the fibonacci numbers[39] " - move ref to end of sentence
 * "on a platform towards the rear of the stage[43] " - again
 * "Best known is a routine Hicks did on" - routine is a dab. Do you need to wlink it?
 * "In February 2005,..." - ref needed
 * Yes/No/Maybe? dihydrogen monoxide (H20) 10:38, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Leave a note on my talk page when done. Cheers, dihydrogen monoxide (H20) 09:30, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I've commented on some and struck through those I corrected.  Lara  ❤  Love  19:00, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I think it's all corrected now.  Lara  ❤  Love  19:41, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Passing. Do something about the stuff below though... dihydrogen monoxide (H20) 09:20, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Haha, will do. Thanks, DM. :D  Lara  ❤  Love  14:40, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Stand up comedy
Sorry if this has been discussed, I think I rememeber it being discussed months ago but do not remember what was decided. This is currently in the article (as well as a mention in the lead): "Keenan did stand-up comedy on improv nights in comedy clubs in Los Angeles during that time, delivering—according to a friend of Hicks—inspiring comedy."

The source for this is an interview with Kevin Booth. However, in this interview with Keenan he states: ''I'm on stage often. And sometimes I get laughs. Unfortunately I'm not really trying to get laughs. So that's bad, right? Stop laughing. It hurts my feelings.

Actually I never did stand up. ''I'm not that funny. I did some bit parts in random sketches. But that was ages ago...''

I think I remember someone saying this may be Keenan being a little circumspect or cute with his language. It's true, whatever the band states should be taken with a grain of salt--see lachrymology (which *sigh* is unfortunately is now a redirect--article here). However, I admit that I find it very likely he never did stand up comedy. If he did it was probably as Booth stated, at an improv night, where literally anyone can get on stage and mumble. But that's just my speculation.

Nevertheless, I'm not sure how notable performing at an improv night is; it seems sort of trivial. At the very least I think the discrepancy should be noted in the comedy section and the information about him being a stand up comedian taken out of the lead.

Someone asked about this a long time ago, but in addition to that I seem to remember that this was discussed before. I can't remember what was decided, so please excuse me if I am rehashing old and decided issues.

Also I understand that a lot of work is being done to get this to GA so it may be low down on the ladder of things to address.

hugs and kisses, daveh4h 07:23, 12 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Good point. I actually discussed this with another editor last night. I think he's being facetious in the later interview. I mean, clearly he is in a joking mood with regard to saying he's not funny while intentionally being funny. He's known for his antics. I believe the article should stay as it is for the following reasons:
 * I believe it's absolutely relevant that he did stand-up comedy on improv nights. I think his humor is an important aspect of his personality that we explain in the article. The fact that he's done stand-up that was said to be "inspiring" is an important detail.
 * As far as the lead, it serves as a good introduction to his friendship with Bill Hicks, which is certainly an important detail. Perhaps it should be reworded to remove the implication that he worked as a stand-up comic.
 * I'll work on the lead today. Of course, I'm just one opinion, so if others believe it should be removed or otherwise changed, that's certainly fine. Whatever consensus is reached.  Lara  ❤  Love  14:39, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Three songs?
When talking about 10000 days this article says; "his mother is the inspiration for three tracks on the album." However, it only mentions wings for marie and 10000 days. So is this a typo, or is there a third track that just isn't mentioned? If its the latter, i think we should mention the third track to avoid confusion. --Pritoolmachine2806 (talk) 17:05, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


 * jambi maybe? i heard that it was to do with him wishing away all of the fame and fortune and other "band stuff" to be with his mother. "if i could i'd wish it all away, if i thought tomorrow would take you away" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.108.73.47 (talk) 08:52, 28 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry for the delayed response. You are right, it's two tracks, not three. Good catch. Thank you. :)  Lara  ❤  Love  20:09, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Peer Review-type feedback

 * Moved review to Peer review/Maynard James Keenan/archive1
 *  Lara  ❤  Love  20:48, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Hubbard
The context here is forced and disrupts the chronological flow. This can give off the idea that the event inspired the lyrics, when the source doesn't establish this. –Pomte 02:28, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * WP:SOFIXIT; it's a free encyclopaedia, you dig? Skomorokh  02:39, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think making parenthetical notations disrupts the chronological flow. I also don't think it implies that the lyrics were inspired by the event, however, I do believe it adds relevant context. (Formerly LaraLove) ~Jennavecia  (Talk)  16:44, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Maynard's name
at the beginning it says originally born Maynard Herbert Keenan. Then under early life it says he adopted the name Maynard next to a photo of him listed as Keenan, James in the westpoint picture. who cares anyway? if we really cared about maynard's art this page wouldn't exist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cuauhtemoc07 (talk • contribs) 23:21, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure which version of the article you are referring to, but in the latest version of September 25th, it claims his brith name was James Herbert Keenan, which is consistent with him enrolling at West Point under the name James Keenan and adopting the nickname "Maynard" while there. I don't see any discrepancy, do you? the skomorokh  12:55, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the last sentence of the post makes it pretty clear there's not an issue here for us to address. Jennavecia  (Talk)  15:36, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Is it worth mentioning the derivation of his nickname (John Maynard Keynes)? 220.245.1.118 (talk) 12:28, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes absolutely, but only if we can cite a source for that, after all it could be a coincidence.  Were Spiel  Chequers  14:36, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Maynard being 'a notable recluse.'
This is absurd. Since when does not having one's image plastered on every available publication qualify as reclusive?

Need I remind you of what a recluse is? - Some confined to solitude.

You think it's a hologram up on stage during Tool's 2 year tours?

I would like that sentence removed.
 * This is an encyclopaedia. We add and remove material according to the extent to which it is verifiable in reliable sources. The claim that Keenan is reclusive is supported by the Burgess interview, currently reference number seven. If you dislike this, please feel free to find another reliable source which contradicts the claim. Regards, the skomorokh  02:48, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

The proof is that he goes on two year long tours! How does this not qualify as a reliable source when an interview that has probably edited Maynard James Keenan's responses, does?

Actions speak louder than words.
 * The notion that going on tours makes one not a recluse is your interpretation; the fact that the source says Maynard is a recluse involves no interpretation on my part. Do you see the difference here? the skomorokh  02:41, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

But it was the journalist's words. This is a place of FACT, not some writer's opinion.

Something so misleading warrants no place on this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.43.161.221 (talk) 03:08, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The fact that he tours does not negate the fact that he's a recluse. He tends to perform near the back of the stage. When not performing, he's rarely out in public. He lives in a fairly remote home and pretty much no one is allowed in it. He gets anxious when anyone is in his personal space, which includes his home, and he doesn't speak. I read hundreds of sources from bios to interviews during the time I wrote on this article, and they all detail pretty much the same personality. And that's one of a recluse. It's in the sources. Perhaps you would enjoy reading them. لenna  vecia  05:55, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

But the only opportunity we'd get to study or hear of this 'anxiety' is when the media documents it. How does the media document it? - Through them being present in his personal space. He gets nervous when journalists invade his personal space, that's all this proves. We can speculate that this response may encompass his general lifestyle, but we DON'T KNOW.

He is perceived as a recluse through media outlets. This is a site based on FACT, not how he is presented to us in some interview in which his words have been taken out of context and manipulated.


 * Verifiability, not truth. لenna  vecia  04:08, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Ref alternative
If the social site is a no-go, there's the MTV blog, which is an official blog, thus RS... but it cites the guy that posted to the social network site, so he apparently owns the video. لenna vecia  07:06, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Refs are only strictly needed for content that is disputed. I'm in two minds as to whether we should leave out the dodgy ref entirely and simply wait for RS's to comment on the issue; doing so would preserve the integrity of the article's references while depriving the reader of the video link. Still, no huge deal, imo; your hidden comment is sufficient. Skomorokh  20:32, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * To comment on the sources above; not convinced Headbangers is RS (no byline, no sign of editorial oversight etc.), but the "guy" cited is Buddyhead, an insider blog/zine run by the fellows behind Jubilee's record label. Skomorokh  20:35, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, I figured it was good as it appeared to be an official blog of mtv.com, but I could be misunderstanding the association. If best to just remove it, as this is an FA, then I'm good with that, but I did think the video was a good add. As with you, it's not that important to me, so either way. لenna  vecia  05:05, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Choking a fan?
There are videos on Youtube where a fan ran onstage at a concert. Keenan threw him on the ground, put him in a chokehold, then mounted him and finished the song while dry-humping him and possibly having the mike cord wrapped around his neck. What came of this? Were there any charges filed on either of them, or anything? --Howdybob (talk) 21:02, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Unless reliable sources have commented on the incident, it is of no interest to Wikipedia. Personally, I haven't heard of this. Did you read through the Youtube comments? That might shed some light. Regards, Skomorokh  22:19, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
 * (Fan runs up for a hug at 2 minutes in. Maynard body slams him, pins him to the ground, gets him on his stomach, gets on his back, rides him like a bull for a moment, hangs out for while, sort of uh... rides him a bit more, I guess you could say, all while singing in a pair of boxers.) Awesome video. Pretty well-known among Tool fans, though I don't think this ever made the papers. I seriously doubt charges were filed. No harm was done to the guy. There was also no choking. No cord around his neck. There was, I suppose, a threat of clawing his throat out, but come on... it was just song lyrics! Seriously, though. Not really a big deal. Just great entertainment value. لenna  vecia  04:58, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Maynard doesnt body slam the fan, he performs a form of martial arts body throw after offering the guy a hug , you can see the fan is loving it as he continues to pump his fist while being dominated by maynard , no charges would have been pressed , the fan wouldnt sue his obious idol , and maynard got to ride a fan :P chewiedowpork april 11 2009 :D

The fan was intoxicated.--Dana60Cummins (talk) 02:46, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Discography
It's a little odd that we have a lengthy discography here that omits this hombre's most famous works. I realise this has to do with the redundancy with Tool discography, A Perfect Circle discography etc., but now that discographies have moved past bands, how about we compile a comprehensive listing of Keenan's collaborations on a separate page? If Josh Homme discography can be a featured list, why not Maynard James Keenan discography? Skomorokh 20:39, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I started a MJK discography at one point, in order to take it to FLC. The redundancy is what killed it. If you think it's something that wouldn't be shot down as redundant again, I'd be willing to help. Much of the work is already there. See here. لenna  vecia  04:45, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, so you have, very good! If FLC is the benchmark, we might want to hold off while the new WP:WIAFL is finalised; currently there is a clause (3b) discouraging redundancy with one other article, though that would not be an issue here. Reviewers (including FL jefe The Rambling Man) did not seem to think it an issue at Featured list candidates/Josh Homme discography. Personally, I'd find it annoying if I'd come across an MJK credit somewhere and came here to quickly see what else he had done, only have to trawl through the different discographies for minutes, minutes before finding what I was looking for. And I realise much of MJK's discography is here waiting to be plucked – I wouldn't have proposed this if I thought it would be hard work ;) Skomorokh  04:59, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Haha, noted. Well, I'll keep an eye out. When you're ready to get started, I'll be glad to help. لenna  vecia  05:04, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Groovy, give you a heads up then. Ciao, Skomorokh  05:06, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * That seems analogous to this situation: If someone wants to find out which album a non-single track by Tool is on, they have to look in 6 articles. Neither should really take minutes. –Pomte 08:39, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Selected discography
I reverted the MJK discog back to the last version as a standalone article and have updated it with the relevant chart information and tabled much of it. There is still some table work and cleanup to do to the selected collaborations sections, as well as a need for additional referencing. As for the selective discography now in this artilce, does it look good as it is or should I table it? I'm thinking a table would probably look better, but I'll get some input before going on with that, as I'm not sure it's a standard for FAs. لenna vecia  19:57, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I think tabling should be avoided in prose articles (FAs especially), and the selection here is not too long, but I would split it into two columns. Skomorokh  16:07, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Stop the presses, shocking new image available
And it's CC-by-2.0 too... Skomorokh 01:47, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yea, I saw that one when I got the main image in the article now. Seemed a little unnecessarily negative to put in the article, though. لenna  vecia  21:09, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * One would be hard pressed to make it relevant..."Keenan is a noted recluse...but does enjoy a good nap every now and then *image*!" Seriously though, while I haven't checked the EXIF data on that Flickr set, the low resolution and lack of information about the source suggests these images have been released without the consent of the original photographer. Skomorokh  12:15, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Bad times. لenna  vecia  14:07, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Content moved from discography
If the following unreleased appearances can be integrated usefully here, then so be it: Skomorokh 21:39, 5 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, without a ref, the second is no go, and I've tried but failed to find one. As for the first, it's mentioned in the article, though I'm not sure the actual songs are mentioned. I'll look at putting this in after some sleep. لenna  vecia  05:20, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
 * This is done now. Added "Rooster". The rest was already there. لenna  vecia  14:44, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

A supercategory for comedy, acting, winemaking and philanthropy?
The vast majority of readers will know Keenan only because of his music, I suspect. As such, it might be a little much to have so many top-level sections devoted to his other activities. I propose that, without losing any content, we subsume the "Comedy and acting", "Winemaking and other endeavors", and "Philanthropy" sections under one heading covering his non-musical activities. This would leave a clearer table of contents, I think: Early life, Music career, Writing and performance style, *new heading*, Personal life. This covers the basic biographical areas I think: where he came from, what he has done music-wise, his style as a performer, other activities and personal background. Thoughts? Skomorokh 15:12, 6 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Hmm. I'm not sure. What would the title be? لenna  vecia  01:32, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

I've put some thoughts into this and, personally, I'm opposed to combining these sections. For one, it becomes daunting to edit when the sections are so large. Also, there seems to be a clear enough distinguishment between comedy and acting (performance arts) and winemaking and other endeavors (entrepreneurship). However, I think it would be more appropriate to come up with a similar heading to "Music career" to cover these things, though I'm not sure what to call it, making the above subsections like the band names. Also, to move Writing and performance style under the music career heading. Would look something like the following:

* 1 Early life * 2 Music career o 2.1 Tool o 2.2 A Perfect Circle o 2.3 Puscifer o 2.4 Writing and performance style * 3 [To be named] o Comedy and acting o Winemaking and other endeavors o Philanthropy * 4 Personal life * 5 Selected discography * 6 Notes and references * 7 External links

That takes it from 10 sections to 7. Thoughts, and suggestions for header title? لenna vecia  12:40, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry haven't been able to come up with a title. To clarify the initial proposal, I did not intend to merge comedy/acting/winemaking etc., but to have them as subsections of a new section, as you propose. It would be best to have a title that defined the scope of the section positively, rather than in an exclusionary way (i.e. "Extramusical activities" or "Other endeavours"), but I can't put my finger on what it is that links comedy, acting, winemaking, food and philanthropy other than the fact that they're *not music*.  Skomorokh  15:41, 19 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Ah, sorry for misunderstanding your original suggestion. And I agree with you that it should not be exclusionary, but I too have no idea what to call it. It may have to come down to something like "Other endeavors" with the subsection potentially renamed to "Winemaking and entrepreneurship" or simply "Entrepreneurship". I prefer the former only because most of the information in that section regards his winemaking. لenna  vecia  15:47, 19 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually, about the philanthropy section, it starts off by stating he's used his voice for several causes or whatever. It's it's entirely related to his music career, so it may be more appropriate to move it up under Writing and performance style. لenna  vecia  16:07, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

will/was/was to
Do we know if this store was opened? If so, the prose could be better. Something such as "the opening of [the store] was announced on...". I haven't gotten any alerts about it, but I can search if no one else is certain. لenna vecia  01:59, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * We can't use "will" – Wikipedia doesn't predict the future. Better to report the announcement. Skomorokh  02:02, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Then can we use "is" instead? Using "was" implies, to me, that it failed. لenna  vecia  02:59, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * How does "which would feature" sit with you? Skomorokh  03:11, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It gives the same impression to me. I still think "is to feature" is best. It doesn't predict by saying it will, but asserts intention. لenna  vecia  17:50, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, let's go with that. Skomorokh  17:56, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Today's Featured Article request
I have nominated this article for TFA. See Today's featured article/requests. Lara 19:40, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Bad ref link
Scroll down and look at the reflist. There's a bad link in there someplace, needs to be fixed. &lt;&gt;Multi-Xfer&lt;&gt; (talk) 00:46, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * This may be the one I fixed, but if you could be more specific, that'd be great. Lara  04:58, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry, it was #12 and looks like it's fixed now. &lt;&gt;Multi-Xfer&lt;&gt; (talk) 05:03, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

"Recluse"
I have a hard time with the idea that somehow Maynard James Keenan is a "noted recluse". "Recluse" tends to be a word used by the media to describe people who don't leap at the chance to be interviewed by a magazine or appear on TV every single time they're asked, etc. Just because a celebrity chooses to have a private life outside of the public eye doesn't mean they deserve to be called a recluse. A true recluse would not involve himself in the essentially collaborative activities of playing in a rock band or a winemaking business. 24.69.80.166 (talk) 07:48, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * He's noted in various reliable sources as a "recluse". Lara  03:47, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

These "reliable sources" are newspapers and magazines, not works of serious biographers. However, I see your point on "verifiability" and from this point of view, I agree that he is indeed a "noted recluse". My question now is a wide-ranging one: when are the absurd opinions of journalists notable enough to be noted by Wikipedia? 24.69.80.166 (talk) 21:16, 21 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Can you please direct me to the biographies on MJK by "serious biographers"? There's a good multi-page spread in Spin magazine of an interview of Maynard. During this interview, he explains that he doesn't like people to come in his home, his personal space, and that he won't speak to them while they're there. The journalist was, however, invited in to listen to some tracks from Puscifer's then-unreleased first album. While there, Maynard did not speak until telling his guest it was time to leave. So while he does leave his home, tour with his bands, do signing sessions and such, he does have reclusive tendencies. These tendencies have been noticed and noted by multiple journalists in various reliable sources. There are only two cited in the article beside the claim, but I have found at least a half dozen, including a new one from a week or two ago. Lara  18:14, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

1. There is considerable distinction between "recluse" and "reclusive tendencies" and had the article only referred to the latter I would never have had a quibble. 2. I am not aware of any existing biographies on Maynard James Keenan. However, were someone to begin writing one, I would expect them to gain insights into his personality by interviewing not only himself but his family, colleagues, long time friends etc. as opposed to basing their opinion on a one-off encounter (as presumably these journalists have - having not read them I admit I may not be giving them due credit). All one can really conclude is that MJK has a tendency to interact with (perform for?) journalists in a particular way. Does that make him a noted recluse?

A good encyclopaedia article (which otherwise, this is) should aim to demystify its subject and the line about being a noted recluse just does the opposite in my opinion.24.69.71.254 (talk) 22:35, 9 January 2010 (UTC)


 * As an encyclopedia, we write based on existing publications. Multiple such publications have noted him as being a recluse; thus, for our purposes, he is a noted recluse. Further, some of these sources, as cited, have gone into detail as to why he is, in their opinion, reclusive. Having read these sources in full, I am of the opinion that these are valuable opinions worthy of inclusion, their conclusions having merit. Others may, like you, disagree with me; however, at this stage, the article has passed through multiple review processes to become a feature article and to be placed on the main page at one point. During each of these review process, the claim that he is a noted recluse was present in the article, and thus a significant number of experienced editors found no issue with the claim. There is certainly opportunity for further discussion to determine if others believe it should be changed, but I continue to believe it is accurate. Lara  03:40, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I do agree with UTC... MJK is not a recluse just because he does not go around talking about his private life. Like you said Lara, the sources express THEIR OPINION about MJK being a recluse and that is being bias. Being odd is not the same as being a recluse. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.137.245.16 (talk) 01:53, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Opiate: Studio album?
This keeps getting changed. In Tool (band), the discography lists four studio albums, leaving Opiate, which is not a full-length album, out. Should the wording be changed to add or substitute "full-length" to end the drama; or, should it say five as a Google search of "Tool studio albums" suggests, though the results don't appear to be reliable sources? Lara 03:46, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Follow the recording article, Opiate (EP), if it's any good, which it's not, in which case follow the artist article, Tool (band), which is good and says EP. As for RS, Allmusic at least says EP. Four studio albums, and a hidden comment to any who say otherwise. Skomorokh  11:26, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Four and a hidden comment is what we've had for a long time. People keep ignoring it. The last one changed it. Lara  14:57, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Maynard is injured
Not sure it's significant enough to mention in the bio, but he's performing on crutches. Lara 13:58, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

introductary paragraphs
The intro paragraphs are a bit confusing, and definitely worse than the version at which this article became featured. For example, I am not able to parse this into facts:
 * Puscifer made its concert debut in Las Vegas in February 2009, and Tool began their summer tour, headlining both the Mile High Music Festival and Lollapalooza.

This might be trying to say that Tool is doing a 2009 concert tour and Puscifier debuted in 2009, but I'm not really sure. Tool certainly didn't begin their summer tour in February. Also, the entire third paragraph is too long and has too many unimportant facts (for the lead, e.g. being at whole foods). Compare with the featured version of the article, which is much more succinct and better summarizes the article (as the lead should do). KellenT 10:27, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * So fix it. :) Lara  12:49, 14 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Aye, go for it! Skomorokh  16:21, 14 September 2009 (UTC)