Talk:Mazanderani language/Archive 1

Disruptive editing by 68.5.250.146 (talk)
I’m afraid edit summaries by 68.5.250.146 (talk) - given his long history of disruptive editing e.g. at Amir Taheri – can’t be trusted. It looks as if the sources he claims to refer to were added by him (here) rather spontaneously and haphazardly via copy and paste from the above list. He very probably never read them. Note the typo "Wiesbadan": he simply repeats it. --Ankimai (talk) 01:38, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Ya, You are right, he simply paste the sources which are above (in talk page), and he never initiated any discussions, ... So what is your solution ? --Parthava (talk) 05:12, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I do not know about Amir Taheri. Parthava is a bit rude but his take on Mazandarani language is closer to reality than that of 68.... With all due respect I also do not see anything positive in the envovlement by a Nigerian in such matters as regional lnaguges of Iran. Subjects which requires expertise to the native level. I also do not uderstand why he is so anti-Georgian when he himself (in chat) states that he is a Georgian Mazandarani. But: Mazandarani is not a persian dialect. Though stating that it is unintelligible with standard persian is also a big statement. Intelligibility is a word which has gradual and relative meaning. It should be said mazandarani is a Northwestern Iranian language while standard Persian is a South Western one. I think you should use this phrase as I said. About Gilaki instead of Mazandarani. I have heard this also from another native Mazandarani that they called their language Gilaki before, though it was different than the language of Gilan. I will ask another Mazandarani though. Finanlly I should add that I am not someone who comes to edit on demand. I have my own intellectual integrity. I am not the paid kind of pesudeo-scholar who writes anything for a certain agenda. I only write the truth. I am not much into propaganda. If I can help with editing and clarifying the truth I will, but I wont undo edits by people, only because they are rude or so...--Babakexorramdin (talk) 12:45, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Protected
The page is now protected for 7 days. During this time, please try and find common ground and arrive to a version that all can live with. If you cannot, this is a good time to pursue dispute resolution such as third opinions or requests for comments. If you are ready to resume editing or to contest the protection, place a request at WP:RFPP. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:26, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
 * On January 11 68.5.250.146 (talk) added some sources. I am sure though that he has never seen, let alone read them. He simply copied and pasted them (because they contain the word 'dialects', probably) from this list - without realizing that he copied and pasted the typos, too ("Wiesbadan", "Geselaschaft"). This guy is a vandal and troll (have a look at the edit history of Amir Taheri, please). Regards, Ankimai (talk) 23:12, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

--Ankimai is making baseless accusations. He engages in revert wars on issues about which he has absolutely no knownledge. Even when you provide him with sources of the highest caliber, he makes absurd justifications for totally ignoring all references such as the one he makes now - without even reading the source! Please see his totally inappropriate vandalism and revert warring on Amir Taheri evidencing his tendency.

To Parthava
dear Parthava I have supported your case with regard to mazandarani language. nevertheless, if you go on with your carless manner of edits, deleting all sources materials and pushing your own theories (e.g. your Sanskrit theory) You will not have my support any more. Therfore I suggest revert the edits to my last edits, which were in accordance with the core of your POV--Babakexorramdin (talk) 21:53, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Nonesense, calling it gileki or mazanderani is not so much important, So i don't waste my time for it, And also i added those refrences first, And that man used it to frauding all of the readers of this article, Yes people in tehran may be right, because Mazanderan TV's mazanderani programs are actually resembling dialect rather than to be language, you can see it's channel, and you can understand almost all OF it, and then compare it with mazanderani wikipedia, I'm not stubborn, Just like when you talk about georgian heritage, that persian guy (or gay, Since his notes in mzn wp reflects Eva Khahari) thinks that iranians are persians both you & this man's ideas boring me, These such theories couldn't help to be unified, And then it provides more chances to those pan-turks you & this man remarked before --Parthava (talk) 07:17, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Why is my "ideas" are boring to you. I simply supported you POV on Mazandarani language, but formulated in a nice way.This is what I'm asking. BTW the Mazandarani TV was not easily intelligible to me--Babakexorramdin (talk) 09:20, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Protected edit request
false version, Please correct it or revert it (request made by User:Parthava)
 * ❌ Please lay out exactly what change you wish to be made and get consensus from other editors on this talk page before requesting a protected edit.  -CapitalR (talk) 12:06, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Definations of vandalisms by IP
{editprotected|See below for details} She first appeared |on 27th of May removing the source and imposing her nonesenses, Then 31st of May 2007, My friend from Sweden |entred the list of works on language what this user later when she understands that her works marked as vandalism |copy/pasted them because of having dialect in them in jan 11th of 2008, without awaring what wrotted there, Many of users including user:Shervink, user:Heja helweda, user:Hborjian, user:Ankimai,...were not agree with her. When user:Visviva asked for reference, she just copy/paste the biblography items having the word dialect to preventing her vandals getting reverted. He also removed the reliable sources, As linguistics know that two languages are not intelligble, This just has political background in the Pahlavi era, when all of the local cultures and languages censored, See Carina Jahani's Work. Not only sources, list of references and many others such as this one claiming that it is a language, Johannes Dorn researched about it some 6 years resulting in Masanderanisch Sprache german for mazanderanish language and not dialect. Without needing the entire source of those, Anyone could understand that it is a hoax and Sources are claiming that it's one of caspian dialects, Since caspian dialects are intelligble from region to the neighbor region but not from far east to the far west, both mazanderani and gileki are two dialects of caspian language, See the map created by myself in Caspian languages page. --Parthava (talk) 08:08, 10 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Not done. This request is not comprehensible. State clearly and in proper English what exactly you would like to have changed, please. Sandstein (talk) 15:38, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry for delayed response, I requested per above, change the current version |to this version, Thank you, Many of sources, details, infos, ... deleted and non-senses that i stated above about it added, Thank you --Parthava (talk) 17:35, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Mazandarani Persian is a dialect of Standard Persian, not an entirely distinct "language"
Per Khoikhoi's request, I am again repeating the principle that Mazandarani Persian is a dialect of Standard Persian, not an entirely distinct "language." This is supported by the overwhelming majority of sources, both Iranian and Western, which I have provided in the footnotes of the main article. In all of these articles, Mazandarani Persian and other Caspian dialects of Standard Persian are unambiguously referred to as "dialect." All Mazandaranis are fluent in Standard Persian and as well as their regional dialect of the same. The overwhelming majority of Mazandaranis regard themselves as Iranians/Persians and do not regard themselves as a seperate "Ethnic" group speaking a seperate "language." Mazandaran itself is a 30 minute drive from Tehran and millions of Tehrani city dwellers come from families in Mazandaran. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.250.146 (talk) 16:56, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Protected again
This page has already been protected in March, and again in May. The problem is that there seems to be no resolving of the conflict here on the talk page in the first place, so every single time the page is unprotected, the edit warring resumes. This time the page will not be unprotected until the conflict is fully resolved. I have left a note on 68.5.250.146's asking him to participate. Khoikhoi 06:49, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * If you are the one who actually wants to resolve it, you may saw my notes above, My notes clearly specifies that this user is nothing to do, but just vandalizing the page, We had too many wasteful disscussions, But the obvies thing is that this guy not aware where he is adding nonesense staffs, This page will be remained protected, and this is what you like, you stated mazanderanis are persian before, which is not NPOV --Parthava (talk) 15:24, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * This is a clear content dispute, not a case of vandalism. Therefore, it is imperative that you follow the the dispute resolution process. Khoikhoi 21:48, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I told you that you are n't neutural in your postion, Sources never and never stated this, This is you misunderstanding of it, Here i tried to discuss, But it is the best thing for you to keeping it protected in this version, You instead must resolve it, If you can't, you arent eligible to resolving edit wars by protecting it at wrong version. Surely no one contribute --C (talk) 05:47, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I am not involved in this dispute. I only edited this page once in April 2006. When you said "you instead must resolve it", this is not my dispute to solve - this is between you, 68.5.250.146, and others who were involved in the recent edit war. Also see The Wrong Version. Khoikhoi 21:49, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I am more than willing to participate in dispute resolution. Until this point Parthava's idea of "dispute resolution" has been to unilaterally delete all sources contradicting his POV and labeling all dissent and contrary opinion as "vandalism." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.250.146 (talk • contribs) 10:06, 22 June 2008


 * If you are indeed willing to resolve this, please state clearly and concisely here on the talk page a justification of your reverts (and don't forget to cite your sources). This must be also done by Parthava. Khoikhoi 21:49, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I think this is imperative that Parthava follows the the dispute resolution. The disputed section is heavily sourced and verified by several references. I don't understand why Parthava keeps removing sourced information. If Parthava wants to challenge the section content, he should provide supporting references. I believe that everything can be improved but deleting sourced information doesn't work in WP.--Larno Man (talk) 02:48, 23 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, I also don't understand why he is removing sourced information and adds non-senses,
 * Clearly that guy just copy/pasted my references which stated just dialect, Also Caspian dialects are not persian dialects, they are dialects of caspian language, Which stated in that source, I have too many notes, infos,... that i was going to adding in many of mazanderani-related articles, But reliable, internet-published sources are different, Anyways, Sources never stated it and the notes are not verifiable. I previously justified and clearly specified and defined the acts of this guy before, You can't see above or you don't like to mention it ? --Parthava (talk) 04:00, 23 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Parthava! Although I was one of the major contributor in Mazandarani people, I tried not be involved in edit wars in Mazandarani Language article. However, it seems that the situation is getting worse and worse here.
 * Tiny-minority views and fringe theories need not be included, except in articles devoted to them.
 * It seems that you have a very rare point of view. Not many (or even any) Mazandaranis share your POV. As an example, if you ask a Mazandarani or Gilaki whether Mazandarani/Gilaki is a language or dialect, he/she will get offended. Mazandarani/Gilaki people always consider Mazandarni/Gilaki just as a dialect. --Larno Man (talk) 22:55, 23 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Calm down Larno Man, I know who are you and what you did before, What you do is just offending our culture and your thoughts are completely none-sense, I'm living among mazanderanis, none of them (except a tiny group of immigrants) identify themselves as iranian, We've never been part of iran & never been practicing any of iranian traditions,
 * It is also none of your business to talking about which is dialect or language, If it is mutually intelligble with persian, So at least english must be a german dialect, Since i get what germans are writing in german wp,
 * Soon, we will secure our culture by isolating our region from your iran to not being offended by stupid peoples writing pe.r.s.i.an pe.r.s.i.an anywhere --Parthava (talk) 23:14, 29 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Well! I prefer to contribute to articles by bringing more scholarly sources other than engaging in endless revert wars as you usually do. Let's scholars talk. Pushing Tiny-minority views and fringe theories, reverting legitimate contributions of others, engaging in edit wars and insulting other editors don't work in Wikipedia.  --Larno Man (talk) 23:39, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Story of "what's the mean of speaking persian, Let's talking english!"
Yeah, This is what i heared from a guy who i asked him that "your parents were talking in Mazanderanish style of Gilish, So why you speak persian to me?" He returned the above sentence Talking english is prevalent in tehran and there is a high interest to speaking it in mazanderan --Parthava (talk) 13:08, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Suggestions for dispute resolution
I believe there is a disagreement on whether Mazandarani is intelligible w.r.t. Persian or not.


 * 1) I hope that we don't disgree on the fact that it is a separate language as reported by ethnologue. It is a northwestern Iranian language as opposed to Persian which is southwestern. So the sources that refer to it as dialect should be carefully scrutinized. While I see some European sources (and they should be mentioned), I am not very sure about the Persian ones, due to the lack of neutrality.
 * 2) Then there is the research from University of Columbia, according to which Mazandarani is mutually unintelligible w.r.t. persian. This source should also be included along the rest to have a fair and balanced view (, p.66).Heja Helweda (talk) 18:30, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Mazandarani is a dialect, and Ethnologue is not a scholarly source
Ethnologue is a non-academic, evangelical Christian organization which publishes information on languages primarily to spread the "good word" of the Bible to different regions. Besides having its neutrality serious under question given its agenda, it is not a scholarly source.

Ethnologue is notorious for shoddy scholarship. For example, in Ethnologue, the speakers of Persian and Azerbaijani languages in Iran are estimated as 36% and 37%, respectively. This is when in fact Persian is the lingua franca of Iran (Persia), spoken by 98%+ of the population. It would be like saying 36% of Americans speak English and 37% Speak Spanish. Even the CIA World Factbook, no friend of Iran or Persian nationalism, puts these same percentages as 51% Persian and 24% Azarbaijani. Sometimes the total numbers of speakers of languages in a country differ from the overall population figure: for example, for Croatia, Ethnologue gives a total population of 4,496,869 while, remarkably, the number of Croatian speakers in Croatia is reported to be 4,800,000.

On the other hand, I have provided numerous academic sources, from several countries around the world, both inside Iran and outside Iran, clearly indicating that regional Persian dialect of Mazandaran Province is indeed just that - a dialect. The other reverter is unfortunately an ideologue with a seperatist bias who does not want to acknowledge any source contrary to his own views. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.250.146 (talk) 02:59, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

As for your second source....
It is not a "study" by the "University of Columbia." It is an essay written by one Maryam Borjian, a "Master of Education" student at Columbia. The author is not even a doctor or professor, nor is she sufficiently trained in linguistics. Whereas all of the sources describing Mazandarani Persian as a dialect of standard Persian are published sources in linguistics publications by linguistics professionals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.250.146 (talk) 03:01, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Sources supporting Mazandarani Persian as a Caspian dialect of Persian, not a language "unintelligible" with Persian
1. 1372, “Pishvandha-ye tasrifi va ešteqāqi dar afāl e Guyesh e Māzandarāni Kelārdašt,” Majalle-ye Zabānshenāsi, sāl.1, no.1, pp. 88-105

2.Le Coq, P., 1989, “Les dialects Caspiens et les dialects du nord- ouest de l, Iran,” in Schmitt, R. (ed), Compendium Linguarum Iranicarum, pp.296- 312, Wiesbadan.

3. Melgounof, G., 1868, “ Essai sur les dialects du Masenderan et du Guilanla pronunciation locale”, Zeitschrift der Deutschen Morgenlandischen Geselaschaft, vol.xxII, pp. 195-224.

4. Kalbāsi, Iran, 2004,”Gozašte-ye Naqli dar Lahjehā va Guyešha-ye Irāni”, Dialectology, Journal of the Iranian Academy of Persian Language and Literature, vol. 1, No.2, pp.66- 89. Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.250.146 (talk) 03:04, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Why Mazandarani cannot be dialects of Persian

 * The distinction between language and dialects is not always made on a hierarchical basis. It is not that a dialect is a variation of a language. Sometimes they call it a dialect because it has not much literature and/ or it has not a standardized version. I do not agree with this view but it exists. The article let it indistinct and remains ambigous about the name of language. But it suggests that it speaks about the Caspian branch of the Northwest Iranian languages. In my opinion and you will hear it from established linguists: " There are no sharp distinctions between separate languages and dialects if they are in a spectrum within one family. Every dialect is a little different from its neighboring dialects, but two dialects might appear to be very different and in some case unitlligible if you take two dialects which are located relatively far from each other. This however applies only for the dialects within the same branch or subunit. Gilaki and Mazandarani are Northwestern Iranian languages as Persian is a Southwestern Iranian languages. You cannot say that Mazandarani and persian are either a dialect of the other. " But you can say that Bakhtiari for example and standard persian are two variants of the same language, because they are both variants of the southwestern subgroup of the Iranian languages.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 11:29, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Nobody said that Mazandarani is a dialect of standard Persian. This is ridiculous. It is like saying that Texan is a dialect of British English or Jamaican English is a dialect American or British English. We never say American English or Jamaican English are dialects of British English and visa verso. We just simply say Jamaican English is a dialect of English or Texan is a dialect of English.--Larno Man (talk) 16:06, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I give you two examples: German, assumed to be a single language. There are varieties of German which are not understood by speakers of other varieties. On the other hand, take for example the Scandinavian languages, Norwegian, Swedish and Danish. These are usually assumed to be different languages. Speakers of these three languages can, with little effort, understand and communicate with                          one another. These languages have little differences and are mutually intelligible.
 * I want to conclude that - 'language' is not a particularly linguistic notion at all. The reason why Norwegian, Swedish,                         Danish and German are thought of as single languages has                          as much to do with political, geographical, historical,sociological and cultural reasons, as with linguistic                          ones.
 * Therefor the term 'language'                         is relatively 'unscientific'. Linguists usually                          refer to 'varieties of language'. Per Mazandarani, it has the same situation as German. Historical, sociological and cultural reasons cause that local and national markers have peaceful co-existence in Mazandaran (See Borjan's paper). That is why even the local people of Mazandarn don't consider Mazandarni as a Language and not even a dialect (They just simply call it Mazandarani accent).--Larno Man (talk) 14:26, 10 July 2008 (UTC)


 * With all due respect I think your arguments are irrelevant here. And no mazandarani calls it accent. I have not seen such mazandarani aware of their language and who know Persian well to call it an accent. I can imagine that some might call it a dialect but no one calls it an accent. I told you why it is not a dialect of persian. We are not here talking politics. You are now politicizing the language which is a very dangerous thing.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 15:23, 10 July 2008 (UTC)


 * They call it "Shomali" (which means "Northern" in Persian) or "mahali" (which means "local/regional" in Persian. Which is exactly what it is.  A Persian regional dialect spoken in Northern areas of Persia.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.250.146 (talk) 03:44, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry, it is not about politics! My main point is something else. Categorizing a language variety as a language or dialect is mainly based on political, geographical, historical,sociological and cultural factors. Depending on political realities and ideologies, the classification of speech varieties as dialects or languages and their relationship to other varieties of speech can be controversial and the verdicts inconsistent. English and Serbo-Croatian are good examples. English and Serbo-Croatian each have two major variants (British and American English, and Serbian and Croatian, respectively), along with numerous lesser varieties. For political, historical, sociological and cultural reasons, analyzing these varieties as "languages" or "dialects" yields inconsistent results: British and American English, spoken by close political and military allies, are almost universally regarded as dialects of a single language, whereas the standard languages of Serbia and Croatia, which differ from each other to a similar extent as the dialects of English, are being treated by many linguists from the region as distinct languages, largely because the two countries oscillate from being brotherly to being bitter enemies. (The Serbo-Croatian language article deals with this topic much more fully.)
 * Mazandarani people and other Iranian peoples fall into the same category of German and (American/British) English. Mazandarni is Iranian language variety but because of sociological/historical/cultural ties between them and other Iranian peoples, it is called dialect and not entirely distinct language. That's why Mazandarni language variant is called dialect not entirely distinct language.--Larno Man (talk) 16:22, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I think you are talking about something else. Croatian, Bosnian and Serbian are the same language. The fact that the nationalists have called them languages is not really interesting from the linguistic point of view. Of course these things happen. But we are here talking about two type of languages from different subgroups of the Iranian languages, the one cannot be a dialect of the other. As I said you can say Mazandarani and Gilaki are both variants of a once hypothetically existed language, but that language was/ is not standard persian because it is a southwestern Iranian language. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 21:50, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Dear Babakxoramdin! The thing that Mazandarani is dialect of Persian is not my intention. There is a basic question here before start discussion on whether it is a dialect of Persian or not. We should get consensus on a basic thing. Should Mazandarni be categorized as dialect/language variety or entirely distinct language. This is the first question. As I said, Mazandarani is a language variety that has more characteristics of a dialect rather than an entirely distinct language. This is based on many linguistic and non-linguistic factors.--Larno Man (talk) 00:34, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

I think we should call it a language variety of the Northwestern Iranian branch. You may want to include that it is a variety of larger Caspian dialects (but not of Persian), and that there are many variants of it and the western mazandarani and Eastern Gilaki are transitory fases between Mazandarani and Gilaki. I thin this is the accurate information. In any case I oppose to call it a dialect of Standard Persian, becase as I said they belong both to different branches of the Iranian languages. Iranian languages is a large family, it is nothing like some pidgin languages in one or two banana republics. As a large and ancient language group, naturally Iranian languages have many varieties--Babakexorramdin (talk) 08:34, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Nobody said that Mazandarani is a dialect of standard Persian. This is ridiculous. It is like saying that Texan is a dialect of British English or Jamaican English is a dialect American or British English. We never say American English or Jamaican English are dialects of British English and visa verso. We just simply say Jamaican English is a dialect of English Language or Texan English is a dialect of English.--Larno Man (talk) 16:06, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Babakexorramdin - It does not matter what your personal opinion is. You must speak with sources and proof and professional backing for your statement. It is clear from all the top sources that Mazandarani is a dialect of the Persian language, just like Jamaican English is a dialect of the English language.

Larno Man - What is the difference between saying Mazandarani is a dialect of "Persian" and saying Mazandarani is a dialect of "the Persian langauge?" It's the same thing. Typically, the most widespread and mainstream version of the language is considered the language proper, and smaller, uncommon, regional variations are considered the dialects. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.250.146 (talk) 16:16, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * As I said before it is not my personal opinion. I just wrote down what the established scholarship says. And it is logical. As they are from two different branches of the Iranian languages the one cannot be the dialect of the other. I think you better stop to bring up this source or the other. You tend not to believe the sources of established scholarship. Then you bring up sources, which in turn I showed you are misinterpreting/ misquoting. I think most confusion is here made because the Iranian Americans tend to call Persian instead of Iranian which is wrong. In linguistics at least we use the concept Iranian and not Persian.In Linguistics Persian is almost the same as the Persian language, the satndard Persian inclusing its vernaculars. Then we have the persid languages or better said language varieties which contain the standard Persian and its vernaculars, Luri, Bakhtiari, Kumzari etc... Kurdish, Mazandarani, Gilaki, Baluchi, Raji (central Iranian languages) etc... are all Iranian languages but are not Persian or Persid. for more info see this http://www.iranianlinguistics.org/page.cgi?page=languages--Babakexorramdin (talk) 07:39, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Babakexorr - You're argument makes no sense. You admit Mazandarani is a dialect, but do not mention the language it is a dialect of. If not the Persian language, what is Mazandarani a dialect of? Arabic? Turkish? Japanese? Standard Persian is and has been the lingua franca of Iran for tens of centuries. Mazandarani is simply a regional dialect of this language spoken in Mazandaran Province, Iran. It is not a seperate "language" and it is by no stretch "unintelligable" with standard Persian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.250.146 (talk) 03:41, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

I believe there is a problem here. Some references refer to Mazandarani as dialect, some others as language and references such as Iranica call it sub-dialect. I know that everybody can provide his/her reference that backs his/her POV. In fact, there is no university accepted criteria to draw a line around a language, of distinguishing two languages from two radically different dialects of the same language (For more information see:   and   ). This inconsistancy arises discussions such as whether Mazandarni is a language or dialect. Maybe we need to find a way to satisfy two sides of this discussion. To be on the safe side, I suggest to use Vernacular. Borjian also uses this terminology in her paper. Just look at the definition of this term in Merriam-Webster's Dictionary: "a nonstandard language or dialect of a place, region, or country" I think this definition matches Mazandarni and it somehow satisfies different sides of this discussion.--Larno Man (talk) 05:50, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I can agree to the term "vernacular." As in "Mazandarani is the Persian vernacular of Iran's northern areas."  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.250.146 (talk) 17:51, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

language variety

 * Daer Larno man. You are right the distinction between a dialect and a language is very blurred. Vernacular is aneutral terminology. In this case maybe we can say that Mazandarani and Gilaki are Capsian language varieties belonging to the Northwest Iranian branch of the Iranian language family. think everyone agree with it. To 68... something I think that you do not read what I wrote otherwise you won't repeat yourself and misquoting me time by time.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 09:42, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Babakxoramdin! In fact, we may need different forms of useage for Mazandarni. When we intend to explain its precise and complete linguistic classification, we may use your format but this is very scientific classification not for everyday use. For normal application better to use vernacular and language variety. However, we may also use somthing in between: Mazandarani (Iranian language variety).--Larno Man (talk) 14:44, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

So, In scientific classification we use your definition but for popular terminology and when we need to use a short terminology say Iranian language variety. OK?--Larno Man (talk) 16:37, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * That's correct--Babakexorramdin (talk) 16:38, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


 * We can use vernacular but it has to be explained what Mazandarani is a vernacular of. Clearly, it is a vernacular of the Persian language spoken in Iran.  Usually, even though all the different accents, dialects, vernaculars may be equally as old as the primary language, the one that is designated the primary "language" is the most common, accepted one.  In Iran's case, that is the standard Persian langauge.  All the rest of the regional variations of this language(from Gilaki to Luri to Mazandarani to Taleshi) are only regional and unstandard, and those relatives are referred to as "dialects" or "vernaculars."  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.250.146 (talk) 18:05, 15 July 2008 (UTC)


 * for the 1000th time, would you be a real man and sign your statements?--Babakexorramdin (talk) 19:54, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Mazandarani is a Caspian dialect of standard Persian - more top sources
"CASPIAN DIALECTS, Iranian dialects spoken along the Caspian littoral, including Ṭāleši, Gīlakī, Māzandarāni and related subdialects, and the extinct dialect of Ṭabarestān (qq.v.)."

Encyclopedia Iranica http://www.iranica.com/newsite/search/index.isc (search under: Caspian dialects) "Semnānī, spoken east of Tehrān, forms a transitional stage between the central dialects and the Caspian dialects. The latter [Caspian dialects of Persian] are divided into two groups, Gīlakī and Māzandarānī (Tabarī). Also closely related is Tālishī, spoken on the west coast of the Caspian Sea on both sides of the border with Azerbaijan"

Encyclopedia Britannica http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/293577/Iranian-languages/74630/Dialects#tab=active~checked%2Citems~checked&title=Iranian%20languages%20%3A%3A%20Dialects%20--%20Britannica%20Online%20Encyclopedia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.250.146 (talk) 03:13, 7 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi 68.5.250.146!
 * You may want to take a look at my comment on Ankimai talkpage []. You may find it useful --Larno Man (talk) 03:51, 7 July 2008 (UTC)


 * You both seem to believe that whenever there is a dialect, there has to be a standard language, too. You both seem to conclude that, since there is no standard Caspian, the Caspian dialects must be dialects of standard Persian. Well: this is a) original research and b) wrong. There is, for instance, no standard Catalan either, but that doesn't mean that the Catalan dialects are dialects of Spanish. I wonder how you could spend hours of studies over scholarly books and journal papers, Larno Man, and didn't even get that far. --Ankimai (talk) 10:41, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Sir, just look at the definition of dialect at [here http://www.answers.com/topic/dialect]: A regional or social variety of a language distinguished by pronunciation, grammar, or vocabulary, especially a variety of speech differing from the standard literary language or speech pattern of the culture in which it exists: Cockney is a dialect of English.--Larno Man (talk) 05:55, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

As your response, please read my comment here []. --Larno Man (talk) 14:01, 10 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I do agree on your first point but not on the second one. There is standard Catalan and that is the speech of Barcelona which relatively late is called as standard Catalan by the government of Catalunya but is not accepted but Valencia. Moreover there is no spanish language. The official language in Spain is called Castillian. I do not know exactly about the distances but Catalan is an intermediary stage between Castillian and Provenceal (which is not spoken any more due to the chauvinistic French policies and popular culture). Provenceaal itself was ain intermediary stage between French and Italian but was closer to Italian. with all due respect I think it is better that you as a Nigerian stay away from internal Iranian disputes, I do not say that you should not voice your opinion, but I see it also from your blind support for Amir Taheri and statements about the Taleshi.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 15:48, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The Wikipedia article on Catalan currently maintains that there is no single standard for Catalan (but two of them]). If you disagree, take it to the Catalan language talk page. --Ankimai (talk) 22:00, 1 August 2008 (UTC)


 * What Ankimai calls OR is supported by Iranica, Borjan and Dictionary of languages. I provided those sources on his talkpage but he keeps saying that this is OR. Mazandarani is a language variety that has more characters of a dialects rather than an entirely distinct language. It is also a sub-dialect of Caspian dialect.--Larno Man (talk) 17:11, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * You misrepresent Boryam, you might be misrepresenting the Dictionary of languages as well (you still have given neither a quote nor a link), and providing a source like this when sources like these are at hand comes close to trolling. --Ankimai (talk) 22:00, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

What linguists say
Linguists seem to disagree with Larno Man:


 * 1) The western Iranian languages can further be subdivided into the north-western and south-western groups. The north-western group, includes together with Balochi, among others, the following languages: Zazaki, Kurdish, Gilaki, Mazandarani, and Talyshi. (Serge Axenov, Uppsala University, Sweden, 2006)
 * 2) Mazandarani is the local language of Mazandaran, a province stretched along the southern shores of the Caspian Sea, with a population of about three million. Among the living Iranian languages, Mazandarani boasts one of the longest written traditions (from the 10th to 15th centuries), roughly matching that of New Persian.(Maryam Borjian, Columbia University, USA, 2005)
 * 3) The language of the texts, Mazandarani or New Tabari, is fundamentally similar to that spoken today by more than three million people in the Persian province of Mazandaran, located south of the Caspian Sea (...) the largely understudied language of Mazandaran, a northwestern Iranian language. (Habib Borjian, Columbia University, USA, 2008)
 * 4) Mazandarani is an Iranian language, specifically a northwestern Iranian dialect, spoken mainly in northern Iran along the eastern part of the Caspian coastline, hence a Caspian dialect. (Muhammad-Reza Fakhr-Rohani, Islamic Azad University, Kashan & Qom University, Iran, 2004)
 * 5) Balochi is an Indo-European language of the Iranian branch, most closely related to Kurdish, Gilaki, Mazandarani, Talyshi and other north-western Iranian languages. (Carina Jahani, Uppsala University, Sweden, 2005)
 * 6) Gilaki and Mazandarani, also known as Tabari, are north Iranian languages which share typological features such as inflectional and gender-free grammar (Fariba Mobini, University of Isfahan, Iran, and M.H. Tahririan, Sheikhbahaee University, Iran, 2007)
 * 7) Presumably the ancestors of the Gilaki and Mazandarani spoke a Caucasian language; therefore, their original Caucasian language must have been replaced by the local Iranian language under the above scenario. Indeed, typological analysis of the Gilaki and Mazandarani languages does indicate some sharing of features with south Caucasian languages (Donald Stilo, Max Planck Insitute for Evolutionary Anthropology / Department of Linguistics, Leipzig, Germany, 2006)
 * 8) Of all the Iranian languages of Persia, current or defunct, Persian is the only language with a clear pedigree (...) Other languages are known (...) in their modern forms, such as Pashto, Kurdish, Baluchi, Lori, Tati, Mazandarani, Gilaki, and the Pamir dialects (Ehsan Yarshater, Columbia University, USA, 2005)

Mazanderani is a language.

A current research project of the Uppsala University is titled Language, identity and society: a documentation of minority languages in Iran, their sociolinguistic milieu and the rold of the language in individual and group identity. The project members are Prof. Carina Jahani, Dr. Helena Bani-Shoraka, Ph. D. cand. Behrooz Barjasteh Delforooz (in Sweden), Prof. Mohammad Dabir Moghaddam, Dr. Moosa Mahmoudzahi, Dr. Abbas Ali Ahangar (in Iran) and Dr. John Roberts, SIL International as associated member, and [t]he main focus of the research (...) is on structural linguistics, linguistic contact and sociolinguistics of different Iranian languages, including Persian, Balochi, Kurdish, Pashto, Gilaki and Mazandarani.

And the Department of Linguistics of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology runs a Northwest Iranian Project which holds that Mazanderani, Gilaki and others should all be called separate languages. --Ankimai (talk) 20:37, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think that you have added any new knowledge here!! We all know that Mazandanari is categorized as a Northwestern Iranian language and it is the vernacular of Mazandarani people. We wrapped up this discussion long time ago--Larno Man (talk) 21:10, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Let's start it again, then. --Ankimai (talk) 22:00, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

MAZANDARANIS SPEAK A PERSIAN DIALECT
MAZANDARANI itself is related to Middle Persian (PAhlavi)... I don't care what a small paper claims. Mazandaranis are one of the purest persians out there, and we're one of the most nationalistic persians also, Even Reza shah pahlavi was from Mazandaran. Btw, (According to Encyclopedia, they are considered as a Persian sub-group) check if you don't believe me. So, Long live Persian/Iranian pride! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.255.25.227 (talk) 18:51, 24 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The usage of Mazandarani has been in decline. Its literary and administrative rank was lost to Persian perhaps long before the ultimate integration of Mazandaran into the national administration in the early 17th century. Most people of Mazandaran are bilingual and many see Persian as their first language. Sangak 19:03, 27 February 2007 (UTC)


 * So, this is up to people and not language, please show some other evidences, actually you made me norvous to writing that message --Ali 19:24, 27 February 2007 (UTC)


 * According to the research by Maryam Borjian, Mazandarani is unintelligible with respect to Persian.Heja Helweda 05:19, 25 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, but the same paper notes that the speakers of Mazandarani are bilingual in both languages --Rayis 09:59, 25 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I think there is still no consensus on wikipedia regarding what constitutes/defines an "ethnic" group. What is "ethnic"? Does the mere criterion of speaking a different language suffice? Or is it a racial issue? If the point is a linguistic issue,

you cannot define an "ethnic" group based on it. Will anybody please finally come up with a sourced statement regarding what an "ethnic group" actually is, and how it relates to a "linguistic group"? Shervink 15:19, 26 March 2007 (UTC)


 * language could not be an evidence for ethnic, Since many of the people in iran are educating persian, or in india, malaysia, canada, australia, new zealand people enjoy speaking english, However they are from various nations, But A Mazandarani Man who interests his culture and his land shall use Mazandarani, along with business language, Also please note that this is the article of language and not the article of people, since some people insist to including some unrelated notes, Keep on using mazandarani, ema vene na'orim veshon re gap re, ame gap ke andi sadoo'e o jan ri dilbere vene genim,


 * my take on this: Mazandaranis are of course an ethnic group. But they have assimilated large numbers of (predominantly male)Georgians, Armeniasns, and to some extent also Jews, Kurds and Afghans. Day by day the arrogant Tehranis come to Mazandaran cut off the trees and dry the rice farms and make villas. laugh at Mazandarani language and customs and Tehranize the area. Thi bilingualism in Persian as such, however, goes back to earlier dates. The educated (predominantly Urban) classes there has always been bilingual in Persuian and Mazandarani. Tehrani persian is not making the natives stop speaking their language (yet) but has currupted the purity of their speech and customs.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 23:56, 16 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Please note that these all are mutual, I found too many parses of sentences which were mazanderani originated in tehrani persian, Although i never saw those tehranis, but i aware that Mazanderanis also laugh at tehrani's style of persian, game for tehranis has been over. Land prices are now so high that no one could buy a piece of land. --Parthava (talk) 20:17, 2 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Please stop being a radical, "arrogant Tehranis laugh at" any other dialect, including dialects of Persian. By the way a part of Tehranis are modern Mazandaranis.--92.242.212.254 (talk) 13:29, 30 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Please note that the MAJOR part of today tehranis are mazanderanis, I am a native tehrani, i never saw even one tehrani to fooling my language, Just IRIB and radio televisions are keeping fun with it, P.S. that's not mean that if radio/tv channels making fun with my language, So tehranis do. I also don't deny that some mazanderanis sometimes make funs with it (those persian is the 1st for them) --Parthava (talk) 20:17, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Persian Arabic is a dialect of Classical Arabic, not an entirely distinct "language"

 * Yes all of persians fluent in arabic, In many articles, Persian Arabic and other South-western iranian dialects of Classic Arabic are unambiguously referred to as "dialect." The overwhelming majority of Persians regard themselves as united of Islam World and do not regard themselves as a seperate "people" group speaking a seperate "language." and different "culture" Iran itself is a 30 minute flight from Arabian peninsula and millions of Iran dwellers (including even ancestor of my great-grand mother) have the arabic prefix name "Sayyed" which as far as i know means that they are not persians. AM I WRONG ?  --Parthava (talk) 13:08, 5 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I would say you are wrong. They is no way someone could verfiy that your great-grand mother was actually a seyyed, or therefore an Arab. It was common for people starting 400-500 years ago to claim "seyyed" heritage, since many considered it an """"honour""" to be of Mr. Mo's descent. Not actually because they had that heritage. classic E.g. Safavid
 * btw I recommend you pay a visit to Iran, as you apparantly haven't been there in a while. and tell persians,Mazandari,Gilakis and Kurds that they overwhelmingly regard themselves as united with Arabs of Saudi Arabia. Please leave your family your will before your 30 min flight back to Tehran. BTW take a look at genetic studies, haplogroup J1 is Arab maker.
 * Regards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.12.106.140 (talk) 04:20, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Expanding
Dear Parthava, this article and other Mazandarani ones need more expansion and adding more information, like an example of inflectional forms of a verb for this one and many others improvements. We better add those instead of removing sourced materials. Thank you.--Raayen (talk) 16:04, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Vocabulary table
The intend behind creating the vocabulary table actually fails for some words. "Persian" is not just what we hear on TV and read on newspapers:

--Raayen (talk) 16:40, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Apparently, In the table existed in article, some words are dishonestly write in a way to make Mazandarani looks like English--St. Hubert (talk) 16:58, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Discussion of changes made 20 June 2009
Before I go through the list of the changes I made, let me remark that in scanning the previous comments on this talk page, I see there is an unusually large number of unsigned comments and of ignorant comments (ignorant because they contradict elementary understanding of ethnology and linguistics, or they do not rely on genuinely expert linguistic sources). Many of the contributors to this article are out of their depth, they don't even know how academic research is done.

Somebody inserted a false citation ("Pishvandha-ye . . ."), supposedly an article from the Iranian Journal of Linguistics. This editor did not even give the name of the author! The name of the journal was given only in its original Persian. It is one thing to cite an authoritative source from a foreign language or a hard to obtain journal. It is another thing not to bother to offer a translation and description of the citation in the language of the Wikipedia you are contributing to. In this case, the entire citation was given in transliterated Persian! Probably the biggest problem with the citation is that there is no such article in Vol. 1, No. 1 of the Iranian Journal of Linguistics . One final problem with the citation is that it gives the Islamic calendar year (hijra year) 1372, but Vol. 1, No. 1 of this journal was not published until three decades later. (To begin with, I had to search the Web to find out we were indeed supposedly dealing with the Iranian J. Ling., and from there I found a Web sites that gives the tables of contents for all of its issues. As for the year of publication, the hijra year 1372 corresponds to about Gregorian year 1952, see this table Islamic_calendar. I have checked the tables of contents of the first dozen or so issues of this journal and have found no such article.)

The article cites an "dictionary of 400 languages" by a person named Dalby — the name 'Dalby' was misspelled in the citation (and misspelled in such a way that the name appeared Arabic or Persian, although I don't think that was intentional). He has his own Wikipedia entry, wherein he is described as a linguist and translator whose most prominent accomplishment is writing about food.

Some previous editors are confused, and create confusion, as to the theory of genetic relationships in linguistics. Since Mazandarani and Persian belong to different major genetic groupings, it is unlikely that Maz. could be highly intelligible to Persian speakers. That would raise the strange possibility that the same is true of Kurdish, Balochi, etc.; that indeed all of these are in reality all one big language. It is possible, however, that Maz. could now be largely intelligible to Persian speakers if it had become Persianized, that is, if it had borrowed vocabulary and grammar from Persian on a massive scale. But this is so unlikely that if one wishes to make the claim, one needs to describe the evidence in detail. But here is a key assertion from an article already given as a source, M. Borjian (2005): "Moreover, Persian is increasingly influencing Mazandarani, which belongs to the northwestern family of Iranian languages, and, therefore, is mutually unintelligible with respect to Persian, a southwestern language (Borjian, 2001, 2004)." (Emphasis mine.)

Many names were misspelled or not spelled consistently. Even the name 'Mazandarani' was spelled two different ways. Dale Chock (talk) 21:45, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Another manifestation of the inattentive editing was a nonsensical passage under Etymology: "the now Caspian province of Mazandaran". The word "now" makes no sense in this context, yet nobody seems to have noticed. Topographically, Mazandaran has alway been on the Caspian Sea, and administratively, there is no Iranian province named "Caspian", nor is the province of Mazandaran a nEw one. Dale Chock (talk) 02:25, 22 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Self correction on calendar. I did not know that Iran doesn't use the Islamic calendar, but the Iranian calendar. Dale Chock (talk) 22:23, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Inappropriate bibliography entries
A bibliography should contain exclusively or almost exclusively works consulted. It certainly should not contain give times as many sources as were cited in notes to the text! Bibliographies are not intended to survey the entire field, or to indicate the comprehensive history of research in the field. There were many citations from the 1800s. It looks like some editors copied from the bibliographies of sources actually used. Another mistake was to include four entries on research into a different language, the sister language Gilaki. I have moved these to the Gilaki article. H. Borjian 2004 is a bibliographic essay on the history of the field. I have retained works not included there. Dale Chock (talk) 02:32, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Language name
Shouldn't it be Mazanderani? Take a look at this page. –Ranching (talk) 22:08, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Untitled
The Mazandarani language is not related to Kurdish, it more related to Persian. so I'm changing it. Preceding unsigned comment added by Lfdder (talk) 11:20, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I thought
Persian was the same. 84.13.149.202 (talk) 10:47, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

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Typological similarities to Caucasian languages
The article mentions that Mazanderani and Gilaki have typological similarities to Caucasian languages not shared with other Iranian languages but says nothing about what they are. Shouldn't there be a section describing these features?Bill (talk) 23:20, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

extinct
The Mazandaran language is rapidly becoming extinct Preceding unsigned comment added by Iveswies (talk) 21:26, 24 April 2021 (UTC)