Talk:McLaren MP4-30

Possible COPYVIO
The image of the MP4-30 at Barcelona has a clear watermark on it in the bottom-right corner; it reads (C) A. Morales. I'm not sure what the rules regarding this are, but I think that the image should stay out of the article until such time as it is resolved.

Even if it is a free image, it is my experience that authors who add these watermarks are doing so as a form of advertising&mdash;claiming ownership over an element, even if it is free under Creative Commons. And if that is the case, then I don't think that we should be entertaining them like that. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 00:01, 3 August 2015 (UTC) Prisonermonkeys (talk) 00:01, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Since the image is uploaded at COMMONS that's where you should raise your concerns. To be precise, this is the place. Not this talk page. Tvx1 00:20, 3 August 2015 (UTC)


 * That still doesn't mean that it should be used here. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 03:44, 3 August 2015 (UTC) Prisonermonkeys (talk) 03:44, 3 August 2015 (UTC)


 * It was uploaded by me. I was in personal contact with the author and he changed the licence in Flickr after I asked him to. I didn't spent much thought on the fact that there is a (c) in his watermark, that might indeed be a problem, even if the author agreed to the use. I will try to clear this issue with the people on Commons. Zwerg Nase (talk) 08:19, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

The issue is settled, we can use the image without any changes. :) Zwerg Nase (talk) 10:29, 3 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Thank you, . If the author refuses to remove it, I would be inclined to take the image out of the article entirely; it's my experience that authors do this to draw attention to their body of work, and that's not our job.


 * I am still hesitant to use the image, because the purpose of the image set is to show the aero updates that the team introduced, not the livery changes. The second image doesn't show anything that the other two don't already do. The first image shows the original nose and the third shows the Spielberg updates. The second just shows a new livery, which I think is excessive and unnecessary. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 10:40, 3 August 2015 (UTC) Prisonermonkeys (talk) 10:40, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
 * For my part, I am always very thankful to get images in the first place, so I don't mind if the authors want recognition by keeping their watermarks in there. So from that perspective, I have no reservations against using it. When it comes to if we should show all three images in the article next to each other, I am open for debate. I believe it is quite nice to see the three steps together in one graphic so to speak. Zwerg Nase (talk) 10:47, 3 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I don't really think it counts as a "step". Like I said, the purpose is to show the performance updates to the car, and nothing was added when the livery was changed; it shows the snub nose, but so does the Malaysia picture; it shows the new livery, but so does the Britain picture. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 11:59, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Apparently liveries affect performance too. Force India started to add black colors to their otherwise orange, white and green cars last season because the black paint is lighter.Tvx1 12:07, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't say that that's a very good reason though... Zwerg Nase (talk) 13:54, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Here is a source for that, by the way. But no, that's not a good reason as such. My opinion is that it benefits the readers to have a direct comparison of the three looks the car had so far. How it looked from Australia until Bahrain, how it looked from Spain until Canada and how it looks since Austria. We have picture in the same style of the other two and it we can slot it in there without clashing with the prose making it unreadable. So I really can't see what the problem is. Tvx1 15:06, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, that I agree with. Zwerg Nase (talk) 15:42, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Because it's not supposed to be about the look of the car&mdash;it's about the performance of the car. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 16:43, 3 August 2015 (UTC) Prisonermonkeys (talk) 16:43, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
 * And when did the caption for those images ever mention anything about the car's performance? Tvx1 17:13, 3 August 2015 (UTC)


 * In the nose. That's why you change the nose&mdash;to improve performance. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 00:16, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
 * We have prose to explain that. The purpose of images is to show the reader a visual rendering of the subject. In this case the car. I can't really see how the purpose of images of two looks of the car (now three) can be anything other than to show our readers the different looks. Tvx1 10:07, 4 August 2015 (UTC)


 * The prose explains the aerodynamic changes, not the livery changes. And before you add a section explaining the livery changes, remember that McLaren have made several in the recent past&mdash;like the #JoinThePact at Silverstone. And that might be just one change in the season, but look at what they have done in recent years, changing every few races. Livery changes don't affect the performance of the car (sure, new sponsors mean more money, but you would need a reliable source to say that the car's performance improved as a direct result of the investment, or else it's OR), so I don't see why we need to represent them so prominently. The livery change is obvious in the two original images, so a third isn't needed.  Prisonermonkeys (talk) 06:02, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Just like you need a source to say that the car's performance improved as direct result of the nose change. This livery change wasn't just the adding of a sponsor or inclusion of a one-off message. It was an entire overhaul of the car's livery. I really don't see the harm in including the image. It doesn't clog up the article in any way. It seems you just don't like it.Tvx1 08:48, 5 August 2015 (UTC)


 * No, I'm advocating its removal because it doesn't add anything. The Malaysia picture has the snub nose, and the GBR picture has the Red Bull/Williams-style nose. What does the Barcelona picture contribute except to show the Malaysia spec car in different colours? Prisonermonkeys (talk) 00:35, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
 * That it doesn't add anything is just your opinion. It tells our readers that they didn't straightaway from the snub nose&livery 1 to the livery2&new nose layout. Tvx1 00:47, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Which is not related to the performance of the car. Have you actually read the article? It's about the design and performance of the car. Not about the colour. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 07:17, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Exaxtly, design. Tvx1 09:15, 6 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Physical design&mdash;as in all of the parts of the car that directly contribute to its performance.


 * And even if you want to argue that it should be the graphical design, you still haven't addressed the fact that the GBR picture already shows it. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 09:18, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I support U|Prisonermonkeys here. Who cares that if/when the livery changed? It is about the "technical" (or physical) design and resultant performance variations, not the color. The prose can say when it changed livery color or we'd have a million photos and words for livery alterations of other cars as well, from race to race in some cases thanks to track-specific sponsorship requirements CtrlXctrlV (talk) 18:05, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Don't you think you're exaggerating a little bit? Tvx1 18:18, 7 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Not at all. You have defined livery changes as notable enough to warrant a picture; CtrlXctrlV's point is simply the natural extension of that logic. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 21:30, 7 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Doesn't it also have a taste of TRIVIA? And what if they decide to change livery during the season again? If this aspect were important to the sport, it'd be the subject of regulations. And I very much it is to any significant extent, if any. CtrlXctrlV (talk) 03:26, 8 August 2015 (UTC)


 * It is, but the only real regulations are that both cars in a team must have the same livery, and that if you want to change the livery, then you need to get the approval of all the other teams first. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 05:44, 8 August 2015 (UTC) Prisonermonkeys (talk) 05:44, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I am still with User:Tvx1 on this. It is nice to have the three incarnations in one graphic. Zwerg Nase (talk) 08:49, 8 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks U|Prisonermonkeys, that brought back memories of BAR's double livery attempt. Back on topic, U|Zwerg Nase, I'd agree with you if only the SAME livery were not also on the latest car. The additional photo unecessarily adds bulk and the livery change can be explained in words instead "Top is CAR 1, Bottom is revised CAR 2 with new nose design, introduced in GP Y and bearing the new livery introduced in GP X". CtrlXctrlV (talk) 10:44, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry but I really can't see how it's bulk. It's nicely slotted in and it does not clash with the text. There a total of four images in the article. I really think you exaggerate with your bulk/clogging up. And no the car used from Spain and the one used from Austria just don't look the same. No only was the shape of the nosecone altered, the livery of the entire nose was also changed to accommodate the new nose cone. Tvx1 11:32, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Which are only relatively minor changes to the design. I don't think that the changes between the Spain GBR pictures are so great as to justify the inclusion of an extra picture. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 21:01, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Ditto in this instance. And I should add that no car ever looks the same between races anyway, that's a weak point. CtrlXctrlV (talk) 02:28, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Who said that we must only include images that are absolutely necessary? If we have two good photos, even if you argue that they show more or less the same, why not include both? It's a luxury we should embrace! More often than not we have Wikipedia articles where it is the biggest pain in the ass to find proper photos... Zwerg Nase (talk) 07:09, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
 * That points to inconsistency then. How on some F1 articles we have lots of stuff and trivia is frowned upon, and in others such as this, it's allowed under personal preferences. In fairness, it does not involve you from what I've noticed U|Zwerg Nase :) In the case of this article though, we are showing the car x 3 and it's akin to graphical trivia since livery 2 is pretty much featured in the latest car. If we nit pick about slight variations, back to my opening sentence. CtrlXctrlV (talk) 08:25, 9 August 2015 (UTC)


 * So, where do we stand on this? Prisonermonkeys (talk) 06:03, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Seems to be 2 vs 2 so. CtrlXctrlV (talk) 07:06, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

It's not a vote. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 08:55, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
 * How about this: We leave it as it is for now. The article is probably (and hopefully) going to grow in size over the rest of the season, leaving more room to place images around the article. Once it is so, we re-evaluate where which photo should go. Zwerg Nase (talk) 08:57, 11 August 2015 (UTC)


 * This isn't a vote indeed. Nevertheless there obviously is no consensus to make and edit regarding the image. We could really do with some more input. Nevertheless I think has proposed a good compromise. Tvx1 16:42, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

I am confused. First it is Prisonermonkeys who wants to get rid of a photo he considers redundant but now he insists on placing another one there that is clearly not needed and fills half the article with whitespace? Zwerg Nase (talk) 12:52, 29 August 2015 (UTC)


 * What's more confusing is the way you seem to think that once someone states their opinion, then that opinion is set until the end of time and cannot be changed under any circumstances.


 * Also, if you're getting white space, it's either a misplaced clear template, or it's something in your display settings. Either way, that section will grow over the next few months, removing the white space. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 13:39, 29 August 2015 (UTC)


 * And for the record, I haven't actually changed my position on what I feel is a pointless image in the set of three, because I don't think that it contributes anything, given what that set of images is intended to do&mdash;show changes in the car's physical shape. That doesn't mean that other images cannot be used elsewhere in the article. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 13:41, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * What a set of images is intended to do is determined by its description (i.e. the caption). It was tweaked to suit the additional image and it works. It doesn't clash with the text either. So that concern is a bit overdone. Tvx1 14:12, 1 September 2015 (UTC)


 * The article has grown in size and several more images have been added. There is no further need to include the image in question, unless it can be explained as to why it is necessary. After all, the other two images are still being used to show performance-related changes in the car design, but the middle image does not. And I see that nobody has made any progress in dealing with the copyright stamp that should not be there. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 21:55, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
 * The copyright issue has already been dealt with months ago, so drop that already. Nothing in the caption claims these images show performance-related changes so that concern is unfounded as well. These three images are far more meaningful than the ones that were added later, because in contrary to the later ones, these three actually show what the caption claims they do: major visual changes of the car through the season. On the contrary, the lone GB image doesn't show Alonso scoring points in Silverstone, the Belgium (which isn't really that high quality) one doesn't show the engine-upgrades failing to produce improved results and the Japan one doesn't show Alonso complaining. The obvious only reason these are there is because they make the article look good. Tvx1 22:57, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

You can't just change the purpose of the images because it suits you. The images were NEVER intended to show visual changes. They show PERFORMANCE-RELATED changes. After all, the entire section is based on the performance of the car, not the look. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 23:59, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
 * It doesn't suit me, it suits the images. I can't fathom why you have such a dislike of this image that you would go through such great lengths to remove it, while at the same time you refuse to allow subsequent images to be removed despite clearly only being there for aesthetic reasons. Practice what you preach. Tvx1 00:53, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Consistency
@ &mdash; the consensus at WP:F1 is that a driver only needs to appear on the entry list in order to be considered to have taken part in a Grand Prix. So despite Magnussen's failure to start the race, he still appears as having taken part in the seaaon article. There are also multiple references to Magnussen driving in this article, and he appears in the car's results table. We must have consistency between articles, and so by our own definition, Magnussen drove the car. We cannot get into a situation where Magnussen is listed as driving in articles with a secondary connection to this one, and yet he is not listed in this, the most relevant article about his driving. Furthermore, the circumstances behind his participation are notable enough to warrant inclusion. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 00:35, 10 September 2015 (UTC) Prisonermonkeys (talk) 00:35, 10 September 2015 (UTC)


 * So to be a notable driver, as indicated in the field entry, you need only to drive the car under any circumstance and not actually have raced the car? By that rationale, many drivers should be added to previous car articles. Friday practice drivers, even young/retired drivers doing promotional runs in city downtowns or actual runs up Goodwood Hill in 5 year old cars, since simply driving them and driving them fast is all it takes to be notable. Well, there's some work to be done, surely in the name of "consistency". Twirly Pen  ( Speak up ) 01:08, 10 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Specifically, I point to Nick Heidfeld driving the McLaren MP4/13 up Goodwood in 1999, an official entry of an officially sanctioned event that was officially timed. Surely these conditions qualify Heidfeld to be included as a notable driver of the McLaren MP4/13, correct? Twirly Pen  ( Speak up ) 01:18, 10 September 2015 (UTC)


 * @ &mdash; Magnussen drove the car and qualified for the race in sessions sanctioned by the FIA as being a part of the World Championship with every intention of taking part in the race. He even took to the circuit for the race before the engine cut out. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 03:24, 10 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Will you please stop reverting edits "per talk page" when there is no concensus at all?? Allow me to define the word used in the entry field:


 * no·ta·ble /ˈnōdəb(ə)l/ adjective: notable
 * 1. worthy of attention or notice; remarkable.
 * "the gardens are notable for their collection of magnolias and camellias"
 * synonyms: noteworthy, remarkable, outstanding, important, significant, momentous, memorable;


 * Kevin Magnussen failing to reach the grid in the only entry of his out of what will likely be 38 entries of the MP4-30 is none of these things. If you want to include every single driver entered simply because they gave it a try but failed, then change the name of the field instead of trying to redefine a word. Twirly Pen  ( Speak up ) 03:43, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

I have already explained to you why it's a) notable and b) contradicting other articles, and the best counter-argument that you can come up with is semantics? And then you wonder why there are inconsistencies all throughout the WikiProject. You also claim "there's no consensus" as ground for changing it and ignore the fact that there is no consensus for or against. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 06:10, 12 September 2015 (UTC)


 * You explained why you think it's notable. But unfortunately, one person's opinion doesn't change the Oxford definition of a well-established word. You bring up consistancy, which I am fine with, but your argument that every entered driver (even if it's only for one event) who sets a lap time (even if they do not race) is "notable" only means that a lot of articles need updating to what you perceive to be agreed-upon terms. So if the collective WikiProject has indeed formed a concensus that "notable" means even someone who completes probably 1% of either car's total mileage in its lifetime is notable, then good lord, you are right then. The project is crazy. Twirly Pen  ( Speak up ) 06:43, 12 September 2015 (UTC)


 * So now you're making editing decisions based on what you assume the community consensus would be?


 * And you still have not explained why an accident forcing a two-time World Champion out and necessitating the need for Magnussen to drive is not notable. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 10:29, 12 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Because I don't have to. The field says "Notable drivers", not "Drivers that attempted to race due to notable situations that caused a driver that actually IS notable to be replaced". This whole "let's name the field something but then give it a completely contrary meaning" infobox tendency is mind-boggling. Twirly Pen  ( Speak up ) 10:57, 12 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I have already provided the Oxford definition of what notable means. I'm sorry it doesn't go along with the perceived guidelines of what WikiF1 considers notable. Alonso crashing during testing and being replaced doesn't make Kevin Magnussen notable. It makes the situation regarding Alonso notable, perhaps, but it in no way makes Kevin Magnussen a notable driver of the MP4-30. Perhaps if he got points or ended up on the podium.


 * But in fact his performance of being an MP4-30 driver, whether it's his fault or not, was actually the very opposite of notable:
 * antonyms: unremarkable, insignificant, obscure


 * I think it's actually on you to prove why a DNS in the only race Magnussen entered in the MP4-30 makes him a notable driver of the car. Twirly Pen  ( Speak up ) 11:04, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

"I have already provided the Oxford definition of what notable means. I'm sorry it doesn't go along with the perceived guidelines of what WikiF1 considers notable."

Haven't you been doing this long enough to know that what WikiF1 considers notable takes priority? I mean, you've used the argument on plenty of occasions in the past. Why the sudden change now? Prisonermonkeys (talk) 14:24, 12 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Go ahead, bring up the Manor table issue as if it's relevant to this discussion at all. "Debut" vs "First Entry" was the issue there. So instead of dredging up past issues that have no bearing on this one, I'll pass on that and wait for an explanation as to why a DNS in the only race Magnussen entered in the MP4-30 makes him a notable driver of the car. Twirly Pen  ( Speak up ) 22:59, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Source
This might be a source worth looking into: 1. Zwerg Nase (talk) 10:10, 11 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks, but I don't think that it offers anything that isn't already covered in the article. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 10:59, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

RFC: Use of images
Starting an RFC to address the issue of using images within the article &mdash; specifically, the three stacked images in the "Competition history" section. The image in question is the second one, "File: Alonso Spain 2015.jpg" as users disagree on its usage. There are two schools of thought:
 * That the three images are being used to show the visual changes to the car over the course of the season, and that as the livery change represents a visual change, it should be included.
 * That the three images are being used to show the performance-related changes to the car (specifically the shape of the nose), and that because a livery change does not bring any change in performance, it should not be included.

The purpose of this RFC is to decide what role the images should play. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 00:09, 24 October 2015 (UTC)


 * For the record, I support the removal of the image. I have written almost the entire article, and the focus has been on the performance of the car. If you read the "Competition history" section, everything is geared towards performance. I feel that the inclusion of the Spain image over-emphasises the change in livery and shifts the focus away from the performance updates. Furthermore, I feel that the argument that the images show visual updates to the car is invalid because the team have brought several updates to the car over the course of the season, but as these subsequent updates are not included in the image&mdash;there are no photos available&mdash;focusing on visual updates misrepresents the car because it implies that development ended mid-season. Finally, the second image is redundant; it shows the nose used in Malaysia and the livery used in Great Britain, but it does not show anything unique. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 00:18, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
 * There is a big difference in how the nose looked from Spain until Austria and how it looked from then onwards. Tvx1 00:40, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
 * And how did the nose change between Malaysia and Spain, except for the livery? Prisonermonkeys (talk) 00:49, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Not and you know that. But it was nevertheless a major difference in how it looked for the onlookers. That aside, how do the second Great Britain, the Belgium, the Japan and the image of the twenty-five year old McLaren show anything of the MP4-30's performance? Tvx1 00:56, 24 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Because they relate to specific individual performances that were particularly notable; Alonso's first points, the Spa updates to the engine, and Alonso's public criticism of the engine. As for the old McLaren, it's a visual reference to establish the previous relationship and to show the evolution of the sport over that twenty-five year period.


 * The image is not there for the benefit of onlookers. The entire section is written with the performance of the car in mind, and visual changes have no impact on that. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 01:03, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
 * But none of the other three images actually show what the caption tells. They are clearly only there for aesthetics. And your repeated supported of them clashed with your massive objection against the image I included. Have you even noticed that you are literally the only person complaining about it. All the other readers have no problem with it. Write articles for the readers, not for yourself. Tvx1 13:38, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

I'm not writing for myself. I feel it's more important that the focus is on the performance-related changes rather than purely visual updates. Like I said, the entire section has been written with that in mind. There's no reason why the other pictures and captions cannot change.

Put simply, there was no consultation with the authors as to what the article was trying to achieve, and no consideration of what the content of the article would be. I'm not arguing that I own the article, but surely you recognise the merit of consulting the author(s) when they have a clear vision of what the article should be. There was just a decision of "this picture is going to be included" and a mimor consensus based on that and that alone. Have you actually read the article? Nowhere does it mention the livery change. But it does mention the changing parts? Why yes, it does. And the Manual of Style for images says that images should supplement the content of the article&mdash;they should not be raising points independently or telling a different story, as they are here. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 22:08, 24 October 2015 (UTC)


 * With no comments after three days, I think that it is time to make a decision. Given that the issue with the images being used for aesthetics has been resolved without further complaint, the focus is now squarely on the performance of the car, and thus the inage showing the new livery can be removed. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 05:13, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Please learn the meaning of the word patience. Three days is nothing. You have initiated a RFC and they have a default length of thirty days. Please respect that. And I still haven't seen any agreement with you in the past days. I still don't see why the image desperatly needs to be removed. No one needs the approval of the authors (and in this case there really is just one, you) of an article to edit. In fact, there are no authors because no one owns articles and their content. Nor does anyone have a higher authority over others in deciding over content. If the livery change wasn't mentioned in the article yet, that's something that can easily be dealt with. The problem with your insistence that only images that show performance should be used is that images don't really lend themselves to do that. Pictures rarely show a car performing. They show a car on a race track, the latter which you can't always identify from the limited portion viewable. The don't show the (lack of) speed of a car. They don't show a car finishing 15th or so. They don't show engine upgrades failing to yield improvements. They don't show a new nose shape improving the performance. For the lay reader who arrives here through clicking on random article, the set of images in question really only shows the look of the nose changing through the season for whatever reasons. And what that in thought, the middle image fits in nicely. It has been in the article for months and no one complained about it. So why are you making such a drama out of this? Tvx1 12:48, 28 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Support Removal -- Summoned here by bot. I support the removal of the image.  Based off of what I have read, it seems that many users think the article should focus on the performance of the car, not it's physical and visual characteristics.  Since the section is titled "competition history," I feel that it is only plausible to remove the image.  The title of that section clearly implies that the focus is on performance.  Hope this helps in making the decision.  Cheers,  Comatmebro  User talk:Comatmebro 18:08, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
 * What do you mean "many users"??? There is only one who demands that: Prisonermonkeys. And "competition" history deals with everything. When, where, how, with whom,... they competed. An extensive report of everything that happened in the period the car competed in the sport. Not purely performance.


 * Read the content of the section. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 02:34, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I have. Tvx1 16:30, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

Keep. I've said it before, I like that there is a place where all three designs of the car are close together so that you can see the differences. Doesn't need to be in the Competition history section, but I don't see it fitting anywhere else either, considering that the infobox stands in the way for them to go into the first section. Zwerg Nase (talk) 08:56, 29 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Except that the second image doesn't show any design features that the first and the third images do. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 10:52, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I meant design in general, be it aerodynamic or just visual. Zwerg Nase (talk) 10:54, 29 October 2015 (UTC)


 * If it's aerodynamic, the second image contributes nothing. If it's just visual, the second image still contributes nothing because the images already show it. The updated livery is nothing more than the team changing the colour of the car, and has no bearing on their season overall. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 11:14, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
 * The others don't and you know that. Tvx1 16:30, 29 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes, they do. They show the new parts that the team brought to try and improve the car's performance. Whether or not they succeeded is beside the point&mdash;the fact is that they tried to improve it by altering the car. And that's what the images show. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 19:58, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
 * That's not what I meant. You claimed that if it's visual the other two images already show all the major visual changes that were carried out. That's not true. The front of the car look very different from Spain until Austria and again in Italy (where that exact look was used for performance reasons by the way) and the other two images show that. Tvx1 21:17, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
 * The only significant difference is in the livery. If there are performance-related changes, then the caption needs to be updated to point them out, and the body of the article needs to address their addition with a source. Because in its current form, the image and caption is only drawing attention to the livery change. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 22:18, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

Results table
, can you explain why you reverted 's edit to the results table? Looking at both versions, I do believe Pyrope's version was an improvement.

Pyrope, reduced the width of the table considerably, without causing any major problems. As a result, they improved the readability. Tvx1 14:39, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I do agree with on this one. I feel the narrower version looks weird. And on a 4:3 monitor, as I have at work, Pyrope's version was still too wide, so it does not really make a difference... Zwerg Nase (talk) 15:41, 17 November 2015 (UTC)


 * "Weird" how? Just "not like they used to"? Also, just because it doesn't make much of a difference with your own particular combination of resolution and aspect ratio doesn't mean that is true for everyone. And if it doesn't make a difference to you, why are you bothered? Finally, including the nowrap template in a Wikitable is moronic and breaks the table's automatic formatting. This means that the table ends up being too wide for pretty much every single user everywhere, and when that includes people using the mobile form of Chrome what you end up with is a tiny, narrow little article as the interaction with that browser sizes the page according to its widest element, i.e. the table. I know that Ownershipmonkey doesn't like people messing with "his" articles, but forcing your readers to adjust screen resolutions (which in many cases may make the text in the prose bit, the bit you are actually supposed to read, uncomfortably small!) just because you don't like wrapped or simplified cells is a seriously blinkered and narcissistic attitude that pretty much typifies his behaviour and "debating" style. Fuck this for a game of soldiers. Pyrop  e  18:34, 17 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Hey, I am just passing along the same piece of advice that I have been given when I have raised similar concerns in the past. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 18:59, 17 November 2015 (UTC)


 * From whom did you receive this advice? And did they give you any reason why they thought that the aesthetic preferences of editors was more important than readability and accessibility for readers? Pyrop  e  05:32, 18 November 2015 (UTC)


 * I don't recall exactly who it was, but it was during the time when we were debating the layout of tables when the number system was changed. The whole point, and it became something of a consensus, was to make tables as readable and as accessible for as many readers as possible. It's well-known that I read and edit from a mobile device&mdash;do you think it's easy for me to read it? The most I get is the year, entrant, engine and tyre columns.

s and so forth... Zwerg Nase (talk) 13:06, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * And I am not talking about your resolution settings; you can adjust the internal settings for Wikipedia. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 05:55, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * But just how is 's table dramatically less readable. I looked at them both on a desktop device and on a mobile device and they were easier to read for me. The height of the table didn't even change, it was just less wide, which is a good thing for mobile viewers. I understand your wanting accessibility, but it doesn't explain your obsession that every bit of text in a cell has to be on one line. Tvx1 13:03, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Apart from the fact that I find it to look better when the text is in one line, it is also more complicated to create the table if it is in that fashion, with all the
 * Also, changing every result table in every article according to this would be a huge pain in the... Zwerg Nase (talk) 13:07, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Having just checked, I realized that some tables are already in that fashion, such as Williams FW17. Zwerg Nase (talk) 13:12, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

I didn't make the edits because Pyrope's table is less readable. I made the edits because Pyrope's table was a response to his settings, and when you try to make edits based on one person's settings, it can have an impact on another person's readability even if you can see it just fine. Keeping everything on one line is the most neutral way of doing it because individuals can then tailor their settings to improve their readability without inadvertently affecting anyone else. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 23:25, 18 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Perhaps you could point out which setting these are that you keep referring to? Ones that allow you to alter just the table rendering while leaving the rest of the text on a page alone. Pyrop  e  01:44, 19 November 2015 (UTC)


 * I was told that they were somewhere under the preferences tab, but they appear to have been moved following software updates. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 07:25, 19 November 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm not finding anything there, nor in any of the browser-specific beta functions either. Either they have been deleted or, as far as I can recall, they never existed at all. This is beside the point in any case, because to be able to mess with those sorts of settings you need a username, and most visitors to these pages are casuals and that is who we should be writing and formatting pages for. Pyrop  e  07:41, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Discussion concerning this article
There is a discussion relating to the grammar in this article in progress at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Formula One. -- de Facto (talk). 21:43, 23 May 2016 (UTC)