Talk:Meades Ranch Triangulation Station

85th meridian?
(Similar comments also posted at North American Datum) Meades ranch, with a longitude of more than 98 and a half degrees west, is rather far from the 85th meridian. Can someone explain the connection? Is it a typo?

The linked JSTOR article is not free and the preview does not cover this point. A Google search for items more than a year old containing Meades Ranch 85th meridian finds only the wikipedia article. Since then a huge number of sites appear to have quoted it, but I think it is wrong.

This publication is by the Coast and Geodetic Survey, who established the station and the datum http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/cgs_specpubs/QB275U35no701921.pdf See Figure 1 for a map of the triangulation work, and other detailed figures that include Meades Ranch as part of the 98th meridian survey.

Also found these references on Google Books: Bulletin of the National Research Council, Issues 77-80, p. 230 "This point was selected because ... it was common to two great arcs of triangulation ... 39th parallel and ... the 98th meridian."

Van Zandt, Boundaries of the United States and the several states, p. 265 similar words.

If no one posts a counter-argument, I'm going to change 85th to 98th. BillHart93 (talk) 17:20, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Proposed merger
I'd like to merge Geodetic Center of the United States into Meades Ranch, Kansas. The former is a nearly content-free stub, which I suspect was created in the course of a mass-stubbing campaign, with no attempt to determine whether the subject was already covered by an existing article. There's no reason for separate articles: the Meades Ranch article should include the fact that the geodetic center is listed in the NRHP, and an NRHP infobox, both of which additions I'll make shortly. Once that's done, the "Geodetic Center" article can be converted into the redirect that it should have been from the start. Ammodramus (talk) 16:05, 10 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Good idea.


 * I think Meades Ranch has too much material that belongs in North American Datum. Would you agree that it should be pared down a little? BillHart93 (talk) 16:53, 11 May 2015 (UTC)


 * I agree that there's considerable duplication of material, and I wondered whether those two articles should be combined. However, I'm inclined to think not.  The Meades Ranch article focuses on its subject as a historic site, with enough material on the NAD to provide essential background and create a good historical context for the Meades Ranch site.  It'd be inappropriate, I think, to put much more detail about surveying (e.g., a detailed explanation of Laplace azimuths) in the Meades Ranch article, but entirely appropriate to put it in the NAD article.  On the other hand, removing material from Meades Ranch and forcing the reader to follow the main-article link to NAD seems like unnecessarily forcing the reader to chase links, contra the principles at WP:LINKSTYLE.


 * In sum, I'd say: the high degree of overlap between this article and NAD isn't good, but it should be fixed by adding information to NAD, not by taking information out of Meades Ranch.


 * By the way, I'm glad that you brought this up; if I hadn't run through the article again before replying to it, I might not have noticed that I'd failed to link NAD at all. That would've been embarrassing.  Ammodramus (talk) 18:26, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Transition NAD27 to NAD83
Ammodramus was wondering about when NAD83 took over. I wasn't involved in surveying to know at that time. I do find these relevant links:

..............

June 1979 http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/PUBS_LIB/FedRegister/FRN-Affirmation_of_Datum_for_Surveying_and_Mapping_Activities_-%5B1989%5D.pdf

... official notification of the establishment of a new Datum ... NAD83 ... Completion is expected in 1983-84 with publication of the results to require another 12 months.

..............

June 1989 http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/PUBS_LIB/FedRegister/FRN-Affirmation_of_Datum_for_Surveying_and_Mapping_Activities_-%5B1989%5D.pdf

... National Geodetic Survey Division, has completed the redefinition and readjustment of the North American Datum of 1927 (NAD 27), creating the North American Datum of 1983 (NAD 83). The interagency Federal Geodetic Control Committee (FGCC) affirmed NAD 83 is the official civilian horizontal datum for U.S. surveying and mapping activities performed or financed by the Federal Government. Furthermore, to the extent practicable, legally allowable and feasible, all Federal agencies using or producing coordinate information should provide for an orderly transition from NAD 27 to NAD 83.

..............

May 1992 http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/PUBS_LIB/FedRegister/FRN-Transition_From_the_North_American_Datum_of_1927_(NAD_27)_to_the_North_American_Datum_of_1983_(NAD_83)-%5B1992%5D.pdf

... the FAA will convert all ... coordinates used in the National Airspace System to NAD83 on October 15, 1992.

..............

My interpretation is that the work was not completed with all new data sheets published until 1989, and adoption by users was slow. The statement that Meades Ranch was the reference location until 1989 seems accurate enough.

BillHart93 (talk) 20:34, 11 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks! I've added the 1989 "Affirmation..." to the article as an additional citation supporting the 1989 date for US gov't adoption of NAD83. Ammodramus (talk) 00:43, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Name change?
I'd like to suggest that this article be renamed; and since there've been several page moves and redirects already, I'd like to consult the opinions of other editors before changing it.

It's been noted at another talk page that the article title suggests that it'd be about the ranch rather than about the survey marker. That strikes me as a very valid point. Since the ranch itself doesn't seem to have acquired any notability of its own, I don't think this point could be answered by inserting more detail about the ranch; better to give the article a title that refers to the marker and not the whole ranch.

I expanded this article in the course of merging it with a National Register of Historic Places substub titled "Geodetic Center of the United States". However, that strikes me as an unsuitable title, since with the adoption of the NAD83 datum in the 1980s (see article), the Meades Ranch station lost its special status. (Moreover, from 1913 to the adoption of NAD83, it was the geodetic center of North America, not just the US.)

I'd suggest something like "Meades Ranch Triangulation Station", dropping the "(Kansas)" as unnecessary: there may be other notable Meades Ranches out there, but no other triangulation station with that name. However, I won't change it until we get consensus here. — Ammodramus (talk) 01:13, 26 May 2015 (UTC)


 * I agree with "Meades Ranch Triangulation Station". It is noted as one of the historic names on the NRHP nomination form, and it solves the problem of the misleading Meades Ranch name.  Keep the redirect from "Geodetic Center of the United States" though, as that is the NRIS name.  Generic1139 (talk) 01:27, 26 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Seems reasonable to me. BillHart93 (talk) 13:15, 26 May 2015 (UTC)


 * After almost a week with no objections, I've assumed consensus and moved the article to "Meades Ranch Triangulation Station". I've gone through and fixed the multiple redirects from articles, but haven't touched talk-page or user-page links. Ammodramus (talk) 18:15, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

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