Talk:Medical student syndrome

Why I reverted
I have reverted to the last version by me because I do not believe the text that was formerly in first clinical syndrome should be merged here. The extra section headers were not helpful either; the sections were too short to require them. I don't think the example given in first clinical syndrome about the brain tumor was instructive or well-written. I tried to rephrase it, but couldn't. I also don't think there is any need for adding info about the university courses of any country, as it's just not relevant to readers who do not live in that country. The part about psychiatric disorders being the most common needs a reliable source, and also I couldn't find any proof on the internet that "first clinical syndrome" is a widely used term in India for medical student syndrome. That is why I have reverted. I am willing to discuss the action on this talk page. Graham talk 11:26, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Why you should not have reverted
1. 98 % Indian literature are not in Internet. So you may not find even authenticated texts in net. Just because something is not in Internet from India, it does not mean that does not exist 2. I think there is a STRONG need for adding info about the university courses of any country, as it's just relevant to readers who do live in that country and use Wikipedia. Wikipedia, I assume is Universal. Just because some thing DOES NOT EXIST IN YOUR COUNTRY, it does not mean, that you have to edit that out. 3. The classification is Somatoform Disorder. If you had enough patience to find about Somatoform Disorder, you would not have removed the Psychiatry part. Doctor Bruno 16:04, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

First Clinical Syndrome
This is also known as First Clinical Syndrome in India, which affects Medical Students in India. For the Global Perspective See Medical student syndrome

Time affected
During the First Clinical Year. Medical Students in India learn MBBS in five and half years. Of these the initial period is spent in reading Anatomy, Physiology and Biochemistry After that they enter into the Clinicals and here they see the patients and read about various disorders and diseases. As and when they read about a disease, they imagine as if they are suffering from that when they have any symptom or sign associated with the disease For example, the student reads about Brain Tumour which presents with Headache. If, by coincidence, the guy has headache on that day, he presumes that he has a brain tumour. It typically starts as one reads or learns about an illness or disorder and begins to believe they have it. It is not limited to medical students; anyone who reads is susceptible. However, it is believed to be most frequently observed in medical students.

More Common Diseases
Psychiatric disorders are more commonly involvedDoctor Bruno 16:04, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

A General Question
First Clinical Syndrome is an entity in India. If you are not able to incorporate the relevant texts from that into this article, then it obviously means that both are different. Why can't you have an seperate article for that.Doctor Bruno 16:08, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
 * They are both, as far as I know, exactly the same - or first clinical syndrome is a more specific version of medical student syndrome. I couldn't incorporate it because I couldn't find a way to make it flow well into the article, not because the contents are different. I understand that the internet does not give the full story to any issue. Can you site a reliable book - it doesn't matter about the ISBN, I just need to be able to find it - that supports your claim? Graham talk 04:58, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

What do you need to quote from the book. The name itself says that it affects during the first clinical period. I have already shown the case of Psychiatric diseases Doctor Bruno 02:53, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
 * What do you mean "the book"? What book are you talking about? Graham talk 07:45, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I am asking as to WHAT POINT you need a book for reference. For example the following points do NOT need a reference 1. Psychiatric diseases are more common 2. It happens in First Clinical Year. 3. The student imagines that he has a dreadful disease, when he has a very common symptom related to the disease Why can't you add those points. Why were those points deleted Doctor Bruno 00:24, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

verifiability is a major policy on wikipedia. Ideally, all statements should have a reference, or there should be external links to related websites. As for #3, it is just an extension of what is already in the article and could be added, as long as the addition is well-written and gender-neutral. Point 2 is not necessarily true; it doesn't just happen in the first clinical year. And point 1 needs a reference. Graham talk 11:41, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

THis exactly is my point. By the way, do you know about Somatoform diseases (Regarding Point 1) Doctor Bruno 15:52, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

How can you say that "it doesn't just happen in the first clinical year", when you have no Idea about First Clinical Year or First Clinical Syndrome. That may be true about Medical Student Syndrome, but not about the First Clinical SYndrome. Remember that it was YOU who merged both and we had a seperate article for each of thisDoctor Bruno 15:55, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

What I see is a disturbing trend emerging in Wikipedia. People edit just for the sake of editing and merge for the care of merging.

I believe Wikipedia should have a global outlook and give importance to regional issues. Just because something does not exist in a english speaking area (or just because a english speaking user does not know), the seperate article need not be deletedDoctor Bruno 15:58, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Rock and Roll
"[...] the 'rock and roll' lifestyle that students of medicine endure. Lack of sleep, excesses of drug and alcohol abuse, and promiscuity"

So studying medicine means promiscuity, alcohol and drug abuse!??!? In my four years of study I have only known the 'lack of sleep' part of that sentence. I'm missing out on something, it seems? --Guruclef 00:06, 7 October 2006 (UTC) I'm going to edit that part of the article, since no one explained that claim further. I'm keeping the part about substance abuse because I think you mostly mean caffeine (or other stimulants) and nootropics?

Merging first clinical syndrome into this article
It may be worthwhile revisiting this merger, initially proposed in April 2006. First clinical syndrome and medical student syndrome are fundamentally the same illness. To say that they are distinct (just because the term "medical student" is known as "first clinical student") is splitting hairs. Andrew73 16:49, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Why are you having a separate article for Sedan when you have an article for Car. First Clinical Syndrome is one of the various types of Medical Student Syndrome. You can merge this into Medical Student syndrome when you are merging Sedan into Car and Laser Printer into Printer. Why there is no opposition for all those separate articles. Why no one ever wants to merge those. It is Laser printer is known to the English speaking population. On the other hand, First Clinical Syndrome is not known in America (as there is no First Clinical Year) and European countries and so there are requests for merge. This is a classical example of Systemic Bias  Doctor Bruno  17:32, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * A sedan is a specific type of car, in the same way that a convertible is a specific type of car. A laser printer is specific type of printer.  On the other hand, first clinical syndrome and medical student syndrome both refer to the same type of hypochondria that may be observed in medical students, whether they are educated in India or in the U.S.  A lump in the neck, whether you in India or in the U.S., both raises the same possible hypochondria concerns.  Of course, there may be diseases specific to India, i.e., specific types of diseases through insect vectors that may not be seen in the U.S., so perhaps in this respect, the set of diseases one may have hypochondria for in India may be different than the U.S.  But this is sort of pushing it!  Andrew73 19:02, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

''A sedan is a specific type of car, in the same way that a convertible is a specific type of car. A laser printer is specific type of printer.'' In the same way, First Clinical Syndrome is seen ONLY in First Clinical Years. If some one else (not in first clinical) suffers, it is NOT first Clinical Syndrome. A lump in the neck, whether you in India or in the U.S., both raises the same possible hypochondria concerns. But when raises hypochondria concerns in the first clinical year, we call that as First Clinical Syndrome (we can also call that as medical student syndrome). When that raises hypochondria during other time, it is NOT first clinical syndrome, but Medical Student Syndrome.

To Summarise
 * Medical Student Syndrome can be seen in any country, including India and US
 * First Clinical Syndrome is seen in India and not in US
 * Medical Student Syndrome can be seen during any time including First Year, First Clinical Year or Final Year
 * First Clinical Syndrome is seen during First Clinical Year.

All cases of First Clinical Syndrome are cases of Medical Syndrome (all sedans are cars and all laser printers are printers), but NOT ALL cases of Medical Student Syndrome are cases of First Clinical Syndrome (not all cars are sedans and not all printers are laser printers).

So, We can merge this only when you are merging Laser Printer with Printer and Sedan with car. I am not making a point, but just trying to give you an example.

You have a valid question. When that can be referred to as Medical Student Syndrome EVEN IN first clinical year, why do you call that by a different term I respect your question. And your question has a valid answer. '''That is called as First Clinical Syndrome. We in Wikipedia are here to REPORT FACTS AS IT IS and not indulge in Soul Searching Questions I have already elaborated these points in the talk pages

If you have further doubts, please ask  Doctor Bruno  19:31, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * These are good points. To push you a little further, can we agree that first clinical syndrome is a subset of the more general term medical student syndrome?  If that's the case, I don't think it's an entity that's important enough to merit a whole unique article.  Andrew73 19:47, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

No Need to push further. If we push further will will end up in saying that we don't need articles for Laser Printer as it is a subset of Printer and Sedan as it is a subset of Car. I think I have given enough examples. Any how, a Sedan is a specific type of Car, a laser printer is a specific type of printer and First Clinical Syndrome is a specific type of Hypochondriasis and hence a special article is needed. If you feel that those examples are off the mark, let me give examples from medicine itself. Since Medical Student Syndrome is a subset of hypochondria and since Cyberchondria also is a subset of hypochondria can we merge both these along with hypochondria. Why it did not occur to you that cyberchondria should be merged with hypochondria when the former is a subset of the latter. They all deserve their own article. I am sure that you will agree with me that "Medical Student Syndrome", "First Clinical Syndrome" and "Cyberchondria" need separate articles. Please take a look at Brain_fag, Fan_death, Windigo where we have articles based on such entities which are limited to one small community. Culture-Bound_Syndrome and Genital_retraction_syndrome provide more insights. This should be treated like that only. If you still cannot understand I think I have to improve my communication skills.  Doctor Bruno  00:28, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I think this is a matter of where you draw the line. However, if I may indulge a litte, I bet the viewpoint I propose is the more typical viewpoint.  Furthermore, if I may appeal to google, there are 527 entries for "medical student syndrome."  On the other hand, there's only one (or two) listings for "first clinical syndrome."  The other listings do not refer to the specific entity of "first clinical syndrome."  (In contrast, "cyberchondria" has over 10,000 listings.)  Andrew73 00:34, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I have already explained that India related topics are not represented in Google. Any one who knows about the penetration of Computers in India will not use Google for the notability test. Just see the discussion above. Why is that you keep on asking questions that have been already answered. Also Internet will have more hits for cyberchondria. That is natural. Please don't judge the notability of any India (or for that matter other developing countries) related topics with Google. THe view point you propose if typical from your point of view and I am sure that all the American and European Users too will agree with you. Because they form 90% of Wikipedians, you are going to get more "Votes". But please remember that there is truth apart from your place also. This is the maximum I can tell. It is up to you. But the idea of not allowing an article just because that term us unknown in Western World is a definite case of Systemic Bias  Doctor Bruno  13:57, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I've put in an RFC to get input from other users.  Andrew73 19:07, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

RFC
The above discussion brings me to one conclusion: I cannot think of a more appropriate merge than these two articles. Dr Bruno accuses Andrew73 of systemic bias, but this is nonsense; there is no attempt here to limit the geographical scope. In fact, by splitting off articles on essentially the same subject we are promulgating systemic bias by suggesting that these phenomena are geographically discrete (quod non). Various analogies offered by Dr Bruno are also marred with problems; for example, should we (based on his logic) have a different article for Graves' disease and one for Bazedow's syndrome, just because it's called differently in different countries? Or one on hereditary haemorrhagic telangiectasia and one on Rendu-Osler-Weber syndrome? Yes, there is a limiting factor (it occurs only in a subgroup) but that too is a fallacy - who suggests that second year clinical students do not get this hypochondriasis and why should that distinction prompt a seperate article? Merge on all accounts. JFW | T@lk  22:54, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The examples you have given are Synonyms. I never told that we have to have separate article for Synonyms. Please don't try to confuse other editors by diverting the attention from Subsets to Synonyms. I am not able to understand why you cannot understand the simple difference between synomyms (Heart and Cardia) and subsets (Heart and Ventricle). Obviously I cannot expect someone who does not even understand such simple facts to vote for a separate article in this case. Flawed analogy. And you give such a falwed analogy and term my comments as nonsense. No comments. This is not just Geographic. If second year students get this, put it under Medical Student Syndrome. If there is a well established name, then add it. Till then put it to Medical Student Syndrome. This question has been already answered by me. I have no comments for the behaviour of Voting even without reading what has been already answered in the talk pages.  Doctor Bruno  03:11, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * You should note that Wikipedia acts on No Original Research and Verifiability. Since there is no established condition such as Second Clinical Syndrome (as of today), we can't have an article for that. It is a simple answer. The same holds true for the other conditions you have cited. If you have a valid reference (Ahuja, Kaplan etc) please cite the page number, edition number and we are happy to add that also. Just because there is no condition called Second Clinical Syndrome (as of today), you cannot tell that First Clinical Syndrome deserves no article.  Doctor Bruno  03:15, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * On other hand, I imagine the collective interpretation is that first clinical syndrome and medical student syndrome are synonymous. I think it's excessively splitting hairs to prove a point to argue otherwise.  Andrew73 12:24, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Please don't distort the facts. I have given already clearly as to why they both are not the same, though one is the subset (not variant) of other
 * Medical Student Syndrome can be seen in any country, including India and US
 * First Clinical Syndrome is seen in India and not in US
 * Medical Student Syndrome can be seen during any time including First Year, First Clinical Year or Final Year
 * First Clinical Syndrome is seen during First Clinical Year.
 * I don't think that any doctor who has read medicalbooks will say that the two are synonymous. Please read the points. Your first impression and the first opinion may be wrong. But to stick to that WRONG OPINION inspite of being explained shows your ego. It is good for your ego, but bad for Wikipedia  Doctor Bruno  14:01, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

My Revised Opinion
I discussed with few Psychiatrists here. They said that, it is a subset of Medical Student Syndrome and may not be that notable. Hence I think it will be better to redirect First Clinical syndrome to medical student syndrome.  Doctor Bruno  14:01, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. Andrew73 16:42, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Hope everything is OK Now.  Doctor Bruno  17:01, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Merge with medical students' disease
I suggest merging this article with medical students' disease. jareha (comments) 19:22, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
 * There is nearly nothing to merge. The other article is vastly superior. This one is just unreferenced babble, often of dubious valitidy. So consider it done. `'mikka 00:09, 11 May 2007 (UTC)