Talk:Mee Moua

Recent Changes
MNTaxPayers edits are subjectively politically motivated. I'm looking to correct several items and indicate appropriate quotes as being from political rivals. e.g. Sen Dick Day (R), use of the term "excessive" is subjective in a subject header, financial difficulties is not relevant to the retirement section, etc. All of the content in question originated at the same time the website http://www.meemoua.com was set up by an individual mis-representing to be Moua's official site was established with similar content as MNTaxPayer's edits to this wiki page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.83.14.11 (talk) 02:04, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Editor 72.83.14.11 should review Wikipedia's section on Conflict of Interest
Editor 72.83.14.11, which can be traced to he Germantown/Gaithersburg area in Maryland--the current residence of Fmr. MN State Senator Mee Moua--should review the Wikipedia rules on Conflict of Interest prior to deleting biographical information sourced from state records and news reports. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MNTaxPayer (talk • contribs) 04:27, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Conflict of Interest
I live in the same general area of MD, and am acquainted with the subject, but I am not the subject of this wiki article. MNTaxPayer, You didn't address the items I mentioned above, Is it safe to assume you are also operating http://www.meemoua.com now as well? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.83.14.11 (talk) 11:10, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Neutral point of view
I would point MNTaxPayer to this guidance as well Neutral point of view specifically sections related to nonjudgmental language. All of your additions are made with the sole intention of disparaging the subject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.83.14.11 (talk) 17:14, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Neutral Point of View - me too
Take a look at the edits I recently made to the Campaign Finance section. When comparing the two diffs, I believe you'll find the use of judgmental, improperly weighted, and editorialized language being being used by MNTaxPayer is obvious. MNTaxPayerToo (talk) 18:19, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

The Biographies of Living Persons policy and Mee Moua
This article must be written in compliance with Wikipedia policy regarding writing about living people, which demands that we write sensitively, with regard for privacy, and with due weight to reliable sources. I have removed content from this article which clearly does not comply with the letter and spirit of that policy.

Significantly, there was a large chunk of content sourced only to public records documents such as court cases. Such material is prohibited per WP:BLPPRIMARY, which requires that we write biographies based on reliable secondary sources, and avoid original research based upon public records.

There was also a significant amount of original synthesis with opinionated claims and viewpoints made based upon legislation that Moua at one time or another supported. That is also prohibited by policy - our articles are not based on our own personal opinions or viewpoints about biographical subjects, but upon what reliable sources say about those subjects.

Furthermore, placing undue weight on personal financial difficulties is not encyclopedic; many people lost their homes in the housing crisis, and while it may be of interest in relation to her reason for retiring from public service, it doesn't merit extensive discussion otherwise.

Please remember that we are not here to write political hitpieces; we are here to write biographies. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 15:57, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Wording changes proposed by MNTaxPayer
In this edit, User:MNTaxPayer has proposed two specific wording changes. I have reverted, on the grounds that these changes clearly introduce bias or inferences not present in the source material, and are factually inaccurate. I will explain my objections here.

In 2010, the news broke that Moua was homeless and behind on payments when the bank foreclosed on her home - The wording "the news broke" is unnecessarily and unsupportedly sensationalistic, given that foreclosures are very common events and that such an event is not "breaking news" in any source's sense. Using the verbiage "Moua was... behind on payments" is factually inaccurate — Moua did not hold the mortgage and thus the payments were not Moua's to make. She could not have been "behind on payments" for a home she did not own. It's also redundant because the fact of a foreclosure necessarily implies that regular payments on the mortgage haven't been made. As for the word "homeless," the Pioneer Press source — which is the far more comprehensive one — states that Moua immediately moved to her brother's house after moving out of the foreclosed-upon residence - generally speaking, living with relatives isn't a state of "homelessness," which in standard English usage is the condition of people without a regular dwelling. The Pioneer Press article never uses the word "homeless" and I don't believe we should either, without far more definitive sourcing to state that Moua was at any point actually homeless.

When the bank foreclosed on her house, Moua an attorney and state legislator claimed that she didn't know all the details of the mortgage. The source clearly states that the mortgage was taken out by Moua's parents, and thus Moua would not necessarily have any reason to "know all the details" of a mortgage that was not hers. She was, as per the source, essentially a tenant in the home. Furthermore, in this brief of a biography, we don't really care about the "details of the mortgage" in any way, shape or form. Millions of homeowners fell victim to the United States housing bubble and the sources don't support any inference or statement that this event was any different. There is no need for any further significant detail about a minor event in Moua's life.

Thus, the current verbiage for this occurrence — Moua was caught up in the United States housing bubble in 2010, when her home, which was owned by her parents and shared between the two families, was foreclosed upon is superior because it concisely reports the facts of what happened without creating negative inferences or putting undue weight on this issue in a brief biography. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:31, 12 May 2016 (UTC)


 * I agree with a lot of your assessment but strongly object to the use of the word "victim". That word also introduces bias. People who were attracted by the low introductory rates and knowingly bought houses than they couldn't otherwise afford and then defaulted when the regular rates set in were one of the causes of the collapse of the housing market, not the victims. Likewise there were the people who refinanced when the values were high in order to (unwisely, as property values are cyclical) pull cash out to sustain a lifestyle above their means. These people were another cause of the collapse. We have no details about the foreclosure in question here, so we can't say this family's situation fit either of these models (although it is statistically likely), but we also can't portray them as "victims". I realize you only use "victim" here on the talk page, but it reveals a bias you maybe weren't aware of (I mean that with respect, not as an accusation or attack...we all have biases, even if we don't realize it). Even the use of "caught up in" conveys the idea that her (family's) circumstance was beyond her control or not of her own making, which we don't know to be the case.--William Thweatt TalkContribs 06:47, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
 * That's a fair point, and I agree with your change. I was trying for more interesting prose with that but you're right, it can be read that way and that would create an unsupported positive inference. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:58, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

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