Talk:Megali Idea

POV
The article is a target for fanatic POVs. It is becoming anti-Greek propaganda. Phrases like "Greece did not manage to occupy Smyrna, Imbros, and Tenedos from Turkey" or "she also was not capable to occupy southern Albania" from user 213.100.205.98 are POVs, undocumented and horrible English language. --Spryom 10:57, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

The image in the top-right is not the Megali Idea. The true Megali idea would have included the Dodacanese/Rhodes/Megisti (currently Greek), southwestern Asia Minor, full control of Cyprus and the straits, and also northern Epirus, northern Macedonia, and Pontis. The image shown here is merely territory that the Treaty of Sevres declared to be "Greece".

NPOV
The whole article needs to be reworked. In my opinion there is only a weak link between recognition of borders with Albania and the Great Idea. In other words was the Great Idea the driving force behind belligerency and non-recognition of borders? Moreover, the whole term 'Great Idea' is associated in most historic accounts to the pre-World War I, Greek foreign policy. Is it justified to call every expansionist or revisionist attempt of Greek-Foreign Policy, irrespective of the ruling regime (republic-dictatorship) 'megaloideatic'? A propos Cyprus, it could be as well be called 'right-wing extremist policy'. Is there any special theory in international relations that provides that any maximalist tendency in Greek foreign-political objectives is to be characterised as 'megaloideatic'? To sum up, does hypothesizing about links between the Albanian borders and Megaloideatic beliefs, promote our understanding of modern greek foreign policy? I have contributed these questions in the discussion and would expect new entries and adaptations made in the article to reflect solid evidence or at least a sound argumentation on the issue, and not abstract or even corrupt clauses as it is now. Donnerstag 15:13, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, this article is terribly written and it is not yet NPOV. February 28 2007

Macedonia
Should the controversy on the name of Macedonia be mentioned?

Probably not, because more than 90% of Macedonia is wqithin Greece's borders. There is a separate page about the name controversey...

First Picture
The picture is wrong. The map is not the Megali Idea. The Megali Idea included nearly what once Byzantium posessed. The Map is about "Greece of two Continents and five Seas" a country which no more exists. User:panosfidis


 * Absolutely true. It must be possible to locate a better image. I've removed it for the time being since it is just misleading. Valentinian (talk) 12:11, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether or not this is public domain, but if you scoot on over to http://www.geocities.com/t_volunteer/greece/megali_idea.htm you will find a proper map of the Megli Idea. Ignore the text underneath it though, it's all racist propaganda!! Any wiki member should be able to upload it to this page, we hope.


 * Here's a map of Greater Greece and Greater Serbia. --Tēlex 13:20, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Your link doesn't lead to anything.....


 * This page seems to have an artist's impression of the concept: (ignore the rest of the page, and click the link called "Paint of Megale idea" (second paragraph, second line from the bottom). Regarding a "map" the second image on this page might be better  (ignore the rest of the page, it is propaganda as well). Valentinian (talk) 10:48, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Here's another take on it, although admittedly the phrase "Megali Idea" is not used...

http://enotitanpride.tripod.com/ellada/

18 August 2006


 * I double-checked the link, and it must be this picture Telex tried to link to. Valentinian (talk) 09:08, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Removed image


I've removed this image because it didn't appear to be of the Megali Idea. Rather, it just looked like the history of Greece's borders. Keep in mind that the goal was to encompass all ethnic Greeks. This would mean the Pontus, Cyprus, and part of Sicily would have to be on the map, right? &mdash; Khoikhoi 22:48, 7 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I have uploaded one of the images discussed earlier on the talk page. It doesn't include all of the Pontos region, but it is the best I can think of. Valentinian (talk) / (contribs) 23:18, 7 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks! &mdash; Khoikhoi 23:32, 7 October 2006 (UTC)


 * You can't really see that picture, can't we use something like this?--Tekleni 10:54, 8 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I see your point, but the problem with that image is that Pontos is missing and North Epirus/South Albania isn't indicated very well. Secondly, I am a bit uneasy about the big Turkish lettering given the sensitivity of this topic (I have no idea about its contents, I speek neither Greek nor Turkish.) Khoikhoi, you have a point about Sicily (or even Magna Græcia), but I don't think it was that common to include them as well. But I think that we need to include Pontos somehow, since this region tried to secede during the 1920s mess. Perhaps, it would be better to draw a new image. The only problem with that solution is that any such drawing could turn into a never-ending edit war, so it would be really great (no pun intended) if we could find a good contemporary image - this probably means 1880s-1912. As I see it, the ideal picture would probably show Greece with the pre-1912 borders, and (shaded differently or whatever) Macedonia, Thrace (W and E), Epirus (including N Epirus), Crete, Rhodes and the other Aegean Islands, Cyprus, Constantinople/Istanbul, plus Western and North (eastern) Anatolia. But that is just my interpretation of the term. If somebody draws a map, it would naturally have to include the current frontiers of Greece as well. Cheers. Valentinian (talk) / (contribs) 11:29, 8 October 2006 (UTC)


 * So, we want a map explicitly including Magna Graecia and Northern Epirus. The only one I can think of is this one (I found it above, although as states, it does not specify that it is the Megali Idea). Additionally I think that one goes a bit too far.--Tekleni 11:37, 8 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry if my post was unclear. I think Magna Græcia is normally not included but that all of Epirus would probably be. I agree that the image you point to is pushing the definition too far. At times like these, I wish I knew how to read Greek ... Valentinian (talk) / (contribs) 11:41, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think a map should include Souther Italy as there was never really any serious movement to incorporate Sicily and Southern Italy into Greece. These are almost no native Greeks in Sicily, and only a few tens of thousands in Calabria and Magna Grecia, and most of them are Catholic, not Orthodox.

There is the famous image which I think should be used, of Greece's 1922 borders, with Constantinople and Nicea, and with a picture of Venizelos. It is on the cover of Ionian Vision.

-Alexius Comenenus


 * Agree completely that we should exclude Southern Italy. You are right that the other image is more famous, sure, but AFAIK the image you're referring to shows both Nicea and Constantinople/Istanbul as part of a international zone, not as part of Greece (although the two red signatures are too close to each other that the artist probably thought this was a technicality.). I still hope it will be possible to find a good map dated before the Balkan Wars, since such a map would not have been influenced by later events (in 1912-13). It would also show more clearly the difference between the suggested Greek state and the state as it looked before the Balkan Wars. Such a map must exist somewhere. Btw, does anybody know who created the image used on the cover of "Ionian Vision" and what its copyright status is? Valentinian (talk) / (contribs) 09:31, 19 October 2006 (UTC)



The Megali Idea would have classic Epirus, Alexander's Macedonia and Ancient Thrace as the northern most borders. This would be moving Modern Greece's border 0ver 60km towards the north and including European Turkey. In Asia Minor the eastern-most regions would include Bithynia, Phrygia, Pisidia, Lycaonia and Cilicia. Obviously Cyprus would be included, and also Pontus. Unsure if the region between Pontus and Bythinia would be included, but most likely. I have edited a Byzantine Empire image showing all this. Most of these regions had Greek minorities until the 1920s (and some regions even had majority Greek populations)--Maggas 09:18, 21 October 2006 (ACST)

Still stuck without an image
It looks like we're still stuck without an image. How about if we find an old ethnographical map of the Balkans and Anatolia (e.g. from Shephard's atlas), add the pre-1912 border of Greece and use an image description like "The Megali Idea was a politicial vision to include all regions of Greek settlement within the Greek state (shown in orange on this map. Compare with Greece's actual borders shown in blue)." Or something along those lines. This would get us out of problem about demarkating a border that never existed on the ground. I'm not sure how old the M.I. was in a political context, but the border shown on the map could also be Greece's first border from the 1830s. Would this sound acceptable? Valentinian T / C 11:28, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Influence on foreign policy?
"Respect for independence and territorial integrity of all neighbouring nations has been a cornerstone of the foreign policy of the Greek Republic. Respect for the territorial status quo was mentioned on a number of occasions by Greek authorities as a reason for Greece's refusal to participate in the 1999 NATO bombing of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia."

How is this related to Megali Idea? True, this entire article seems to have been edited to the point of being completely worthless, but this specific paragraph seems to be completely out of place.Zambetis 13:18, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

No references
Added the unreferenced template, since the only reference is to a deleted Wikipedia article.  DOONHAMER  |  BANTER  23:44, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Map?
Elsewhere(on wikipedia!) one finds this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ParisPeace-Venizelos-Map.png

Is this relevant to Megali Idea?

Opposition to the Megali Idea
The section titled "Opposition to the Megali Idea" has a misleading title. The fact that Greeks in Pontos wanted to create an independent state was a practical solution at the time and if the Greeks had been successful in Asia Minor in 1919-1922 bordering Pontos then the two Hellenic states would have achieved their own "Enosis" (union). So the Pontians were not opposed to the Megali Idea at all. That title needs to be renamed or has to be made into another section called "Former or current Hellenic states" along with Cyprus, but it cannot stay the way it is.--Waterfall999 12:30, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Map of the Megali Idea
The map needs to include all of modern day Greece and Cyprus, most of FYROM and Bulgaria and well as southern and coastal Albania, all of Thrace, most of modern Day Turkey excluding south-eastern and eastern Turkey, including Pontos, Cappadocia, Cilicia, Turkey's Hatay province (which includes Antioch), as well as coastal Romania, coastal Georgia, some of Crimea, and Alexandria. It would include Sebastea (Sivas) and Caesarea (Kayseri). So it would be easier to use a map of the Byzantine Empire and edit out Serbia and Bosnia. I'll see if i can make one.--Waterfall999 13:36, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Wrong name
Megali Idea is not an English name for the policy in question but a Greek one (despite the pointless "Greek translation" at the beginning of this article. This is the English wikipedia and the name in the article needs to be translated into English.  Deipnosophista (talk) 20:32, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Megali Idea is the term used, although the literal translation is indeed the "Great Idea", which is displayed at the top of the page. It was a Greek concept and therefore has a Greek name. Changing the name of the section would make as much sense as translating all foreign words used in English. No one would ever translate "Luftwaffe" as "Air Weapon" so why would we change "Megali Idea"? Mentalbasedoninstrumental (talk) 18:08, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, all historical/social scientific work in English uses the phrase 'Megali Idea'.

Edit Cyprus
I suggest severly editing down the Cyprus paragraph and re-phrasing it. Politis (talk) 17:02, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Cleaning + Expanding
I have tried to clean the article by "massive" POV-s, moreover I tried to put some order the sections, but I am not sure how this article should be structured....

Here is my proposal:

... etc
 * Fall of Byzantium/Constantinople
 * Greece under the Ottoman Rule
 * Greek War of Independence
 * Nationalism in politics in 19th century (during that time Nationalism was strong in Europe)
 * Cretan Revolt + First Greco-Turkish War 1897
 * Realization of Megali Idea
 * Eleftherios Venizelos
 * Balkan Wars
 * WWI
 * Decline of Megali Idea
 * Second Greco-Turkish War
 * Big Catastrophe (i.e. Destruction of Smyrna)
 * Exchange population
 * Interwar period

So... any opinions/comments, suggestion or even references? A.Cython (talk) 01:41, 7 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I have placed sections according to the above plan + made requests for expanding some of the sections... I will try add staff whenever I can!A.Cython (talk) 22:53, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I concur with this plan to expand and clean up the article. Only, I would add Prince Constantine along with Venizelos, since it was under Constantin's leadership, not Venizelos', that the Balkan Wars were carried to success on the ground. --Nikoz78 (talk) 17:03, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

"Folk saying"
...is not folk saying! It is a song: Σημαίνει ο Θεός, σημαίνει η γης, σημαίνουν τα επουράνια, σημαίνει και η Αγιά Σοφιά, το Μέγα Μοναστήρι με τετρακόσια σήμαντρα κι εξηνταδυό καμπάνες, κάθε καμπάνα και παπάς, κάθε παπάς και διάκος. Ψάλλει ζερβά ο βασιλιάς, δεξιά ο Πατριάρχης κι απ' την πολλή την ψαλμουδιά, εσειόνταν οι κολώνες. Να μπούνε στο χερουβικό και να 'βγη ο βασιλέας, φωνή τους ήρθε εξ' ουρανού κι απ' Αρχαγγέλου στόμα. Πάψετε το χερουβικό κι ας χαμηλώσουν τ' άγια, παπάδες πάρτε τα Ιερά και 'σεις κεριά σβηστείτε, γιατί είναι θέλημα Θεού η Πόλη να τουρκέψη. Μον' στείλτε λόγο στη Φραγκιά, να 'ρθουνε τρία καράβια το 'να να πάρει το Σταυρό και τ' άλλο το Βαγγέλιο, το τρίτο το καλύτερο την ΄Αγια Τράπεζά μας μη μας την πάρουν τα σκυλιά, μη μας την μαγαρίσουν... H Δέσποινα ταράχθηκε κι εδάκρυσαν οι εικόνες... "Σώπασε κυρά Δέσποινα και μη πολυδακρύζεις πάλι με χρόνους, με καιρούς, πάλι δικιά Σου θα 'ναι!"

--Michael X the White (talk) 14:22, 19 October 2008 (UTC)


 * well... this is folk song and most Greeks remember only this quote. we could state that this folk saying is part from a folk song or something similar... A.Cython (talk) 17:35, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Albanian POV
Chauvinistic, as it mainly coveted lands inhabited by other Balkan peoples (Albanians, Bulgarians, Turks). Northern Epirus' Question is its main derivative. --Guildenrich 13:55, 6 October 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Guildenrich (talk • contribs)

Map of Feraois'
Is there not an image of Rigas Feraios' Charta? 137.158.152.213 (talk) 13:20, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Catherine the Great's Plans For Constantinople
In the book Modern Greece: A Short History by the eminent Oxford scholar C.M. Woodhouse there is the following passage on page 120 about Catherine the Great of Russia' plans, formulated in 1782, for "[...]a restored Greek Empire with it's capitol at Constantinople, under her grandson Constantine, who was to be brought up as a Greek." It seems to me that a mention of her ambition to resurrect the Byzantine Empire is certainly in order. With her being the Empress of the Orthodox Russian Empire (Third Rome), and her hatred of the Muslim Ottoman Empire that had finally destroyed Byzantium with the conquest of Constantinople in 1453, her motives are clearly understood. She did not give up on this plan until 1792 (ten years). The reasons for it's failure could also be mentioned, such as the Austrian Empress not agreeing to the plan, resistance from the French and the fact that her officer Count Orlov (Alexey Grigoryevich Orlov) had already roused the Greeks some years prior to uprising (1770) and the failure of the Russians to supply adequate support (see Orlov Revolt), all contributing to the failure of Catherine's designs on Constantinople. Again, does anyone concur that this information should be added to this article? An aggressive conspiracy to resurrect the Byzantine Empire is certainly noteworthy. The Russian Empire never gave up on Constantinople; as late as World War I (1914-1918) the Russians were promised the ancient city upon allied victory against the Central Powers (something the civil war in Russia against the Bolsheviks prevented from happening). --Nikoz78 (talk) 21:09, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Golden Dawn
I don't see the purpose of the section 'Golden Dawn' in this article.I think it's totally irrelevant. Also,i think that Megali Idea is better translated as 'Idea of Greatness'.It's not as the Greeks had some Great or Big Idea (meaning brilliant) but the idea of the nation's great past. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.176.100.150 (talk) 12:01, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I've got no opinion on the translation, but how is it irrelevant that a modern political party supports the idea? TDL (talk) 17:38, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
 * If you've got no opinion on the translation why do you keep reverting it?
 * About Golden Dawn,i think that many things are said about this subject,but this is not something that has been.Could you provide an objective source and not a turkish one?Apart from this how do you consider this sentence: and "Yes, we are racist and nationalist and we are not hiding that." to be relevant?The concept discussed in this article has nothing to do with racism and Golden Dawn's political beliefs don't have a place here.
 * Racism and irredentism are completely different issues.Wanting to regain territories that you once controlled doesn't mean you hate the people currently occupying them.It means that you have an imperialistic view on the subject of territories your nation once possessed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.176.100.150 (talk) 18:38, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
 * If you want to change something you need to provide a source. I get no reliable hits for "Idea of Greatness" and plenty for "Big Idea".  If you think this is a bad translation we need more than your opinion to change it.
 * As for the Golden Dawn, your strawman argument isn't helpful. Of course racism and irredentism are the not the same thing and I never claimed they were.  However, nationalism (the part of the sentence which you apparently have missed) is obviously a driving force of irredentism.  You completely removed the section without explanation, I simply restored it.  If you object to how the information is portrayed then you are welcome to attempt to fix it, but removing it isn't the solution.  Here is another source: .  Are you suggesting the quotes of Nikos Mihaloliakos are faked because the sources are Turkish?  If you think Hürriyet Daily News is not a reliable source than you should start a discussion at WP:RSN.  TDL (talk) 19:40, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

What i'm saying is that turkish sources are biased and probably the statement is fake,yes.I'm just asking for a neutral source.Not greek and not turkish.Of course i saw tha term 'nationalist' but i stick by what i said.No one denied that Golden Dawn is a nationalist party but its political beliefs seem rather irrelevant.We could keep the first sentence if we find a neutral source,i'm fine with that.As for the translation,trust me,it's wrong.The meaning is wrong,as i explained because the term is not referring to some big idea with tha literal sense of the phrase.Moreover,you cannot characterize 5 results as plenty. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.176.100.150 (talk) 20:17, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Of course it's possible that both the Hürriyet Daily News and Today's Zaman have faked these quotes because they're Turkish. However, that's a rather serious allegation.  If you dispute the reliability of these sources then you should start a discussion at the reliable sources noticeboard.  There there are lots of people familiar with such matters who can be of assistance.  If these sources have a history of faking news then by all means we shouldn't use them.
 * With the translation, it's not a matter of whether you're right or wrong. It's a matter of verifibility: "Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it."  I don't care which translation we use, but it needs to be sourced.  TDL (talk) 23:58, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Ok,point taken. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.176.100.150 (talk) 08:27, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Golden Dawn
I have been following the dispute here since it began, and the more I think about it, the more I am minded to agree with the removal of the material. First, the source used (Hurriyet Daily News) makes no mention of the Megali Idea. The Megali Idea specifically refers to the incorporation of territories inhabited by ethnic Greeks into Greece. Yet, in the territories mentioned here, there are hardly any Greeks left. There are precisely 0 Greeks left in Izmir, and only about 3,000 or so left in Istanbul. As such, what Michaloliakos is saying is nationalist demagoguery, but it is not a resurrection of the Megali Idea. If he called for the incorporation of Cyprus or Northern Epirus, territories where there are still substantial Greek populations, then we could talk about that being a resurrection of the Megali Idea. But here we are just dealing with demagoguery plain and simple. I wouldn't be opposed to inclusion of the material in the article on Golden Dawn, but I think it is beyond the scope of this particular article. Athenean (talk) 15:09, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Inverted colors
The colors in the map (File:Map of Greater Greece.png) seem to be inverted.VR talk 07:19, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

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