Talk:Mellotron/Archive 2

List of Mellotron recordings
I have reverted the recently added unsourced list section to this article, most recently by because it breaks several policies and guidelines:


 * No references were supplied - how are we supposed to know these recordings were important above all others?
 * A list like this is a great way to introduce arguments and edit warring into an article (eg: "Änglagård are the greatest band in the world ever and my favourite 'tron recording is more important than yours!")
 * Per the guidelines for list incorporation, embedded lists should be deferred to prose on good articles (which this is, and which this does)
 * The content is a mish-mash of songs and albums. Albums should be in italics per the MOS, for one thing
 * Nobody at Categories for discussion/Log/2015 October 20 (the rationale for adding the content) actually said move it to this article.

To reach a compromise which we can (hopefully) all agree on, I have spun the content out into List of Mellotron recordings. I don't have much time to improve it today, and I don't normally create articles without sources (they get shoved off to CSD / AfD before you can blink, for one thing), but I will source what I have added now and I am confident that in time it will be a much more authoritative and well-designed resource than parking it here. Already, I can see one "top ten Mellotron tracks" magazine article, which gives me confidence that the list itself is a suitable stand-alone topic. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  10:05, 4 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but the correct collective noun is a *Lust* of Mellotron Recordings.--feline1 (talk) 14:34, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi Ritchie333, moving the information to a separate list is fine with me (I closed the CFD). Good Ol’factory (talk) 20:45, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Proper noun?
Hi, just a question more than anything else because I'm not super familiar with the subject—is "Mellotron" still a proper noun? I noticed that it's capitalized throughout the article. I understand that at least originally, it was probably a trademarked name and thus capitalized because it was proprietary, but has it not yet passed into non-proprietary common usage? Thanks, Good Ol’factory (talk) 20:51, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
 * It's a trademark, so it's capitalised, like Hammond organ and Rhodes piano. A quick search for book sources suggests reliable sources all use caps. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  10:09, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Cheers, thanks, Good Ol’factory (talk) 10:13, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

What is this supposed to mean?
"Tape is pulled by the capstan at a gradual speed controlled by a tension spring (8–10) ..."

In theory, a capstan pulls at a constant speed. The tensioning system provides the needed back force for stability. So what does "at a gradual speed" mean? That it gradually accelerates?

Furthermore, the tension spring doesn't, in and of itself, control the tape speed.

Whoever wrote this doesn't understand how tape transports work. This paragraph needs a rewrite from someone who does. WilliamSommerwerck (talk) 20:10, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't know who wrote it but I've seen an M400 in pieces and I can understand it. It's simple, press a key, tape gets fed through the head, sound made. Simples. Now cut the snark out and fix it. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  21:04, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

McCartney solo career
As mentioned when removing the sentence, that McGee source doesn't support the statement that McCartney used Mellotron "sporadically in his solo career". All McGee does is list it among Mrs McCartney's various keyboards for Wings' 1976 tour. JG66 (talk) 16:33, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I found a couple of other sources today in a quick search : here, here, so it should be easily verifiable. I'm looking around for a source that says the saxes on "Coming Up" are Mellotron, which I've read elsewhere. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  19:40, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070620130649/http://www.mikepinder.com/mellotron.shtml to http://www.mikepinder.com/mellotron.shtml
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130927112746/http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Aug02/articles/mellotron.asp to http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Aug02/articles/mellotron.asp

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External links modified (January 2018)
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131109011947/http://www.mellotronics.com/clients.htm to http://www.mellotronics.com/clients.htm

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Tape Racks
Key to the sound of the Mellotron is the tape racks. I would like to read a list of the different racks/sounds that were available, perhaps for each machine.2.98.26.34 (talk) 22:02, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

More information about tapes?
How long? Could user record on them? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.132.79.179 (talk) 09:34, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm wondering how long a tape set lasted, surely they'd eventually degrade. Pastychomper (talk) 16:16, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
 * They last as long as any cassette or reel to reel tape would. Take care of your Mellotron, never move it, keep it in a room at average temperature, play it once a year, and you'll have no problems. Take it on the road and you'll need a roadie to go with you. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  16:32, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Notable users
In answer to your questions:


 * "Notable users" sections in articles should be reserved for those where multiple sources are about the instrument, but mention the users / players as examples. (See WP:INDISCRIMINATE)
 * Neither discogs.com or albumlinernotes.com are acceptable sources (see WP:RSN) - the former frequently holds copyright violations (see WP:COPYVIO), the latter is user generated (see WP:SELFPUB). Neither can be used to prove that this is an important piece of information for this instrument. After all, if you can include this, why can't you include lots and lots of other albums from the 60s onwards. Again, see WP:INDISCRIMINATE).
 * As already stated, List of Mellotron recordings is the place to put this information.
 * I don't believe Rocketman features a Mellotron anywhere in the entire film. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  10:55, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Paging for third opinion. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk)  <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  11:00, 10 August 2020 (UTC)


 * All of what 333 said. And Discogs is also user generated. Binksternet (talk) 14:56, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Samples?
Another factor in the Mellotron's sound is that the individual notes were recorded in isolation. For a musician accustomed to playing in an orchestral setting, this was unusual, and meant that they had nothing against which to intonate. Noted cellist Reginald Kirby refused to downtune his cello to cover the lower range of the Mellotron, and so the bottom notes are actually performed on a double bass. According to Mellotron author Nick Awde, one note of the string sounds contains the sound of a chair being scraped in the background.

So wait, I was assuming the entire point of this is that one could create samples of whatever sound you like and cue each one to a specific key, making an infinitely customizable sound, or any number of different sequences all by pressing keys. You're saying that mellotrons came with one recorded sound for each key, and that's it? So its just a much more complex and expensive way of making an organ. With less ability to customize and adjust the sound. Or is this refering to the sound samples that mellotrons were SOLD with, whic could be changed later by the user if they wanted? Are ALL mellotrons sold with this same set of tapes? There was no variation by model or year? Did they never consider offering a variety of different samples for customers to choose from? It seems to me that this is the only area in which something like this has an advantage over, say, a pump organ. Even pump organs had all sorts of stops to allow much modification to the tone. Yes, you can accompany yourself on a mellotron, but that seems like a small advantage. I think this could be explained more clearly.

70.20.40.215 (talk) 00:13, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

it's all there in the operation section. perhaps someone should elaborate on the 'stations' aspect, though.

in brief, the tape under each key carries multiple sequential recordings of: the same note played on different instruments, different rhythms, different sound-effects.

in addition, there are three sounds across the width of each tape. so by moving the head sideways, you can pick up one or another (or a blend, by careful adjustment) of the adjacent tracks across the *width* of each tape, while the different sounds along the *length* of each tape are accessed by advancing or retarding the position of *all* of the tapes using a system of gears & chains originally harvested from a meccano set. each note plays for about eight seconds before the tape reaches a mechanical limit. when you release the key, the tape rewinds under spring tension.

(the M400 model has a single 'station' per removable frame, with three sounds across its width. the 4-track variant of the M400 has fixed heads with four replay gaps each, & the selection/blending is achieved electronically. so you gain a degree of portability & reliability at the expense of having to swap out the frame if you go beyond the three sounds you have loaded. tape-frames were carried & stored in large square cymbal cases- I have eight or nine here- & could be swapped out in around a minute or so, provided you didn't stack other keyboards on top of the M400)

people did experiment with post-processing the mellotron's sounds with (e.g.) effects pedals, synth filters & whatnot, but it was kind of the point of the instrument to sound like 'real' instruments. back in the early 60s, & right up until the early 80s, there was no other way to carry these sounds with a small band- sampling hadn't been invented, & synths weren't advanced enough.

the library of sounds for the mellotron was pretty big, but by the early 70s people were asking for custom stuff as well as picking their own combinations (in threes!) for the M400. patrick moraz, while he was with yes, had custom tapes with pre-recorded phrases on them to simplify playing stuff live. tangerine dream had tapes with sound effects & peculiar splits of instruments. sets were also made with sounds created by artists for the instrument- jack bruce, notably, recorded cello for it. ian macdonald (king crimson, foreigner) gave them a new flute sound.

but this is an expensive hobby now, when samplers are so cheap & easy to use. owning & maintaining a mellotron is not for the faint-hearted, & making one's own tapes for it... well, I've done it, & it's not easy.

some of this is too OR-ey to put into the article. I'm surprised, tbh, that I can still see bits of my original contribution to this page from fifteen years ago. anyway, hope this helps someone.

duncanrmi (talk) 20:12, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Kraftwerk & the Mellotron
"It was also used extensively by pioneering German electronic music band Kraftwerk on many of their earlier recordings."

As is, the above contains two errors.

According to the biography of former Kraftwerk drummer Wolfgang Flür ("Ich war ein Roboter", Hannibal 1999), Kraftwerk purchased a VaKo Orchestron while on tour in the US in 1975. Similar idea to the Mellotron -- different implementation. While they may have owned (or, own) a Mellotron, they don't appear to have used one in performance or during recording.

In fact, their first five albums (including "Tone Float", RCA 1970) do not feature either the Orchestron, or a Mellotron, at all, while their sixth, seventh and eigth albums feature the Orchestron most prominently.

Considering that Kraftwerk's total output to date counts eleven original albums, the reference to "earlier recordings" is misleading. At most, Kraftwerk can be said to have used the Orchestron, an instrument somewhat similar in sound to the Mellotron, at the height of their popularity, and output, in the mid- to late 70s.

Yrs, &c. Lech


 * That will need some checking, since 1975 was about the time the Orchestron was introduced. Before that, if they used any sampling keyboards, they would likely have been the tape variety. iMeowbot~Mw 09:57, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It can be easily checked by LISTENING to any Kraftwerk record prior to 1975's "RADIO-ACTIVITY" - none of them have any mellotron on. Neither is any mellotron listen on the (often detailed) list of instruments used. Neither can any mellotrons be seen in the photo galleries of instruments on the album sleeves! The firt time you can hear the choir and string sounds, is on recordings from the US Autobahn tour, 1975. Flür's biography explains how Kraftwerk visiting the Vako company during the tour, and bought an Orchestron, and began using it on the tour. It really is very simple! --feline1 11:10, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Opeth did not use a Mellotron on their Damnation album. Porcupine Tree frontman, Steven Wilson, had a patch for his synth that emulated the sound of a Mellotron. It's not actually a real Mellotron. Consequently, the Ghost Reveries album features a patch and not a real Mellotron.

An interview with Mikael Akerfeldt reveals they were unable to obtain a real Mellotron because of both their price, and their poor (read: unusable) condition. Cheers. - Graham — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.166.243.152 (talk) 11:37, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Air
"Air" link should point to the band, not the atmosphere´s air : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_%28band%29 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.183.0.130 (talk) 12:09, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Beefheart
Total misinterpretation.

sign, please. & what do you mean? the magic band had a mellotron, around 1978-82, when eric drew feldman was with them. I know, because he told me about it.

duncanrmi (talk) 20:20, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

More description of sounds
I feel the article is missing something critical - the actual sounds that were available on the tapes: cello, violin, choir, etc. This doesn't seem to be addressed specifically. I've had a look around at some online sources but haven't been able to find anything to cover this yet. Anyone have any sources we can use for this? Popcornfud (talk) 14:52, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
 * The best source I've found is this one, but it's not what most people would consider WP:RS, although it's worth reading anyway just for "Think about That Sound you always dreamed of playing whilst dressed in a Wakeman Cape made from your mother's bath towels. Think monolithic. Think massive. Think huger than Huge Jock McHuge himself. Think about three middle aged women scratching their instruments in one of Harry Chamberlin's bedrooms in 1952." <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  15:14, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I think the less said about "three middle aged women... in one of Harry Chamberlin's bedrooms in 1952", the better. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:06, 30 October 2021 (UTC).