Talk:Memphis Belle (aircraft)

Notability question
There were a lot of B-17s during the war. Was this one notable in some particular way? The Memphis Belle was not the first B-17 to complete 25 missions. (If not this article should be deleted) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)
 * The notability of the Memphis Belle is addressed in the introductory paragraph of the article - it was chosen to be a case study for the 1944 documentary film, as well as the 1990 Hollywood feature film. Those films, plus countless references in print media, certainly make the Memphis Belle notable. —Krellis (Talk) 18:19, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Hell's Angel Vs. Memphis Belle

 * It is noted, that this article inaccurately portrays the Memphis Belle as the first B-17 to complete 25 missions in the 8th Air Force during World War II. In reality, the B-17F #41-24577 Hell's Angel, which it's group, the 303rd Bomb Group (Heavy) would later name itself, completed 25 combat missions on 13 May 1943.  A website dedicated to the 303rd BG (H) pulled this information from the book Might in Flight: Daily Diary of the 8th Air Forces Hell's Angels, 303rd Bombardment Group by Harry D. Gobrecht (1997) http://www.amazon.ca/Might-Flight-Forces-Angels-Bombardment/dp/0963615513/ref=sr_1_1/702-2857239-6623233?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1211307232&sr=1-1


 * This website compares the flight logs of both Hell's Angel and Memphis Belle http://www.303rdbg.com/h-ha-mb.html


 * Furthremore, an article was published on an official United States Air Force article by Peter G. Park, U.S. European Command (EUCOM) Joint Analysis Center on 16 August 2007. Unfortunately, the article was removed from the Royal Air Force (RAF) Alconbury website however, it can still be accessed by viewing the Google cache of the website:  http://209.85.215.104/search?q=cache:SIU4Fa2PzSsJ:www.alconbury.af.mil/news/story.asp%3Fid%3D123064708+hell%27s+angel+303rd&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=16&gl=us

Molesworth Myths Debunked

by Peter G. Park U.S. EUCOM Joint Analysis Center

8/16/2007 - Royal Air Force Molesworth, England -- During World War II, RAF Molesworth, now the home of the U.S, European Command Joint Analysis Center, was the base of the 303rd Bomb Group (Heavy). The 303rd, known as the "Hell's Angels" Group flew B-17 Flying Fortresses on 364 missions from this base against Nazi-occupied Europe 1942 - 1945. The JAC now supports the fight in the global war on terrorism - a different but no less important conflict than the one the 303rd fought. There are several legends and myths association with this base, but two of the most prominent myths have been now debunked.

MYTH #1: The "Memphis Belle" of movie fame was the first B-17 Flying Fortress to complete 25 combat missions.

FACT: The B-17 "Hell's Angels" of the 303rd Bomb Group at Molesworth was in fact the first B-17 to complete 25 combat missions. So why is the "Memphis Belle" so famous? And why was a movie made about it?

In a 1940's version of what we would now call media "spin," the public affairs people were hard at work to demonstrate to the American public the Air Corps accomplishments during the war. They had projected that either the "Memphis Belle" or another B-17 would be the first to complete the magic number of 25 missions which was also the number of missions that a crew would have to complete before being sent home from combat.

So the public affairs preparation was in overdrive and many hours of film of the crew of the Memphis Belle in combat and on the ground was filmed as it approached the magic 25 missions. Meanwhile with less visibility, the B-17F "Hell's Angels" of the 303rd Group at Molesworth was racking up missions. On 13 May 1943 "Hell's Angels" flew its 25th mission on a raid against an aircraft factory in Meaulte, France, It was not until 5 days later on 18 May that "Memphis Belle" reached this milestone. "Memphis Belle" and a composite crew of men who had completed 25 missions themselves were sent back to the states on a war bond selling tour. The 1944 movie with the actual crew was a huge success with the American public - as was the remake of "Memphis Belle" in 1990

MYTH #2 The 303rd Bomb Group at Molesworth which called themselves the "Hell's Angels Group" got its name from the motorcycle group of that name.

FACT: The 303rd Bomb Group actually adopted its name after one of its planes called "Hell's Angels" (see Myth #1 above) completed 25 missions. OK, but where did the Flying Fortress "Hell's Angels" get its name?

The name came not from the motorcycle group, but rather from a 1930 movie produced by Howard Hughes which is the story of two English brothers (one good and one bad), who leave Oxford University and join in the British Royal Flying Corps at the beginning of World War I. The movie has a tragic ending in which both brothers die after being shot down.

There has never been any relationship between the WWII Bomb Group and the Hell's Angels motorcycle group - a fact that is clarified on the motorcycle group's own website.

-Signaleer (talk) 18:19, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


 * All of the above are irrelevancies. The Belle was notable for purposes of Wikipedia because she became nationally famous, until the Enola Gay the most famous bomber of WWII. It was not the first to complete 25 missions--Hell's Angels was by a few days. (Belle lost quite a bit of time to repair of battle damage during its tour.) Morgan's wasn't the first complete crew to be sent back with its airplane--Capt. Bill Crumm's was, in February, after 11 missions. But it was the first to complete 25 and be sent home. PR made it famous (before the 25 mission-folderol, Morgan's romance with Margaret Polk was the stuff of tabloid news during his tour), Wyler made it even more famous, and the rest is history. That's why it's notable.--Reedmalloy (talk) 23:54, 10 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I modified the article to reflect the historical accuracy of the fact that the Memphis Belle was not the first bomber in the 8th Air Force to complete 25 missions as described in the article before I made modifications to reflect this fact. This article merely adds supportive evidence since it comes from the U.S. Air Force website which is not an irrelavent source. -Signaleer (talk) 12:09, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Reedmalloy is absolutely correct. There is an interesting entry on the blog of the Air Force museum (Click here and go to the letter titled "Museum Update" dated 7/9/2008, currently on the first page, but as later entries are added, will be pushed back).  This is a letter from Gen. Metcalf, the museum's director, where he tells about President Bush's recent visit to the museum and how the President told Gen. Metcalf that it was H.E., not M.B. that completed 25 missions first.  Apparently the President is an avid reader of military history.  This illustrates that this fact is fairly well known  --rogerd (talk) 00:55, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanx for the support, but I do not intend to get into any kind of MPM over this. "Notable" per se indicates fame or notoriety, not POV (as was used as a basis for reversion of an edit in a message left on my talk page). To pretend otherwise is denial that requires distortion to validate itself, but that's common in wiki today, eh?. I disagree wholeheartedly, but I'm content that in this case it is explained here. As for what is posted above, I didn't doubt it's veracity, only that it is immaterial to why Belle is considered "notable". One problem with the story of the Belle is too many axes to grind--why some perceive slights to the 303rd/Hell's Angels out of the Belle story, instead of making the facts an interesting addition to the article, is self-defeating the encyclopedic purpose. Artificial fame is still fame. However, there are many more serious errors in the wikipedia article, all unsourced about the respective mission lists of Morgan and the Belle, that come from reliance on old errors and "conventional wisdom" endlessly repeated, and from a lack of cross-checking multiple sources. Correcting these will require some ingenuity, because the sources disagree in some details. Each has some details correct, some wrong.


 * A good example is the mission of February 27, 1943, to Brest. Morgan insists he flew it, and in the Belle. The 303rd's website, in its defense of Hell's Angels, says he flew it in Jersey Bounce (515), as he did the mission to Wilhelshaven the day before. The dailies of the 324th Bomb Squadron state that he didn't fly it at all. One would assume Morgan is correct--after all, he was there and it's a minor point--but it bollixes up the entire mission count if he was. (In fact, because the Belle was used as squadron lead by other crews on a number of missions from this point on, the entire what-mission-counts-what-mission-didn't-count becomes very muddled.) But Morgan also insists the Belle itself got a mission credit for March 31 to Rotterdam while his crew didn't. That's probably because he didn't fly that day's mission! Major Haley Aycock, CO of the 324th, led in the Belle per the dailies of the 324th, but Morgan is not mentioned, even though in the same entry it notes that another command officer rode passenger with Lt. Campbell (meaning if Aycock flew with Morgan that day, Morgan would have been shown too as a mission credit).


 * Sloppy and chaotic record-keeping, missing records (the dailies of the 324th are missing the missions of April 16 and April 17, 1943--the latter a milestone mission for the 8th AF), bad memory, trying to squeeze round facts into square holes--all contribute to the confusion in the Belle's record. Further, Morgan's memoirs are riddled with basic errors and bad claims (he twice asserts that the 91st BG lost 82% of its B-17s in the first two months of combat, once giving the figure "29" lost of the original "36" sent overseas. 82% would be 29 lost out of the 35 received by the 91st in Bangor, but only 34 actually went overseas, only nine were lost in 1942, and only four of those as missing in action. The other five were "category E" writeoffs. The "29" figure reflects all the 8AF bombers written off in Nov/Dec 1942 from the entire VIII Bomber Command. The loss of aircraft was still grievous--21%--but nowhere near the 82% he claims for his group. Morgan is prone to this kind of "error") for the sake of emphasis, but this kind of distortion is difficult at best to correct. Before we start wrangling semantically, imo these basic factual errors need correcting or explanation.--Reedmalloy (talk) 17:04, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

List the Crew?
I think it would be a good idea to list the crew somewhere on the page. Only Captain Morgan is listed. The normal crew (I say that because others occasionally were involved with the plane) can be found on the Memphis Belle website: []  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.34.148.110 (talk) 03:13, 19 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree. It would be nice to list the crew members.  And just one of them died recently.  . KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 05:10, 27 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Well, here's the list. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 05:17, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

First Bomber to Return to the US
While the Memphis Belle was the first Eighth Air Force bomber to return to the US, it was not the first to depart England upon completion of a combat tour. The first to leave was "Hot Stuff," a B-24D from the 330th Bombardment Squadron of the 93rd Bombardment Group, which departed on May 3 with Lt. Gen. Frank Andrews, commander of US Army forces in the ETO and Marshall's probably choice to command the Normandy Invasion, on board. After overflying Prestwick, Scotland, the crew continued on to Iceland, and found that the weather had deterioriated in snow and rain. While attempting to land, the airplane hit a mountain and all aboard but the tail gunner were killed. Incidentally, General Andrews was a native Tennessean who had grown up in Nashville. The surviving tail gunner lived in Memphis after the war.SamMcGowan (talk) 05:41, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

National Guard Armory
As a native of West Tennessee, I question that the Memphis Belle was originally displayed at the National Guard Armory. My recollection is that it was on display at Mallory Air Force Depot, a USAF supply depot that was in Memphis until the early sixties. I remember seeing the airplane on display several times. It was unpainted and it seems to me it was on a pedestal but I'm not certain as it was a long time ago. It was later displayed at the Memphis Airport at an airport restaurant that was in the 94th Aero Squadron chain. The Air National Guard unit at KMEM restored it and it then went to Mud Island SamMcGowan (talk) 05:41, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The sequence listed in the article is that always given in histories of the Belle: armory to Mud Island to Millington to Wright-Pat. When I moved to Memphis in 1975, I lived for 2 1/2 years within walking distance of the Belle, and I can personally verify that it was on a pedestal at the armory, on the corner of Hollywood St. and Central Ave., in front of what is now the Children's Museum.  I remember the moves to Mud Island and to Millington, and though I couldn't tell you the years, too many people have followed the progress of the aircraft too closely for there to be any question -- there's always debate in the Commercial Appeal over every decision made and each move made, so it should be easy to verify.  There were vintage airplanes displayed at the restaurant "91st Bomber Group," which faced Democrat Rd. on the NW corner of the airport complex, near the old location of the TN Air National Guard, now part of FedEx's space.  There were planes there, but the Belle was not one of them.  It was at that time still at the armory.
 * Ragityman (talk) 23:49, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Pronoun
As an inanimate machine which is not a ship, this aircraft is referred to as "it" on Wikipedia. --The Huhsz (talk) 18:14, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Again subject of crew
listed are 14 names, although a B-17 only needed 10 as crew and as one can see several "functions" are duplicated! Should really be oindicated more clearly! 80.151.9.187 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 10:04, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
 * AND WHAT ABOUT: "... (flown by Lt. C.L. Anderson)" - Lt. C.L. Anderson is not even listed as Pilot!!! 80.151.9.187 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 10:08, 25 February 2020 (UTC)