Talk:Menachem Begin/Archive 2

not sibiria
he was in the 40 in russia but not sibiria.

As far as I know, Begin was at Vorkuta, so the author of the remark above is right.

(Anyway, the spelling is Siberia, not "sibiria." Das Baz 16:44, 21 November 2006 (UTC))

Re Begin as a Fictional Character
The subject of debate: "In the graphic novel, as in real life, Begin's concern is primarily for the lives of his men."

My first comment (can be found in the history page): I agree with the anon; the statement is non-NPOV and not realistic--no effective guerrilla leader places humanism over strategy (and Begin was certainly effective).

Sangil's reply: rv - had you the slightest acquientance with Begin as a leader, you would have known how he held dear the lives of his men. So mauch so, he asked to be buried next to his fallen comrades

Current reply: Sangil, countless military leaders have gone down in history for being extremely protective of the lives of their troops, but, to be successful as a military leader (of any nation and in any theater), one must be able to send soldiers to their death without a second's hesitation for a cause that is purportedly more important than anything else. Begin had such a cause: the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine. Consequently, it is ridiculous for an article to suggest that "in real life" Begin's concern was "primarily for the lives of his men". His primary concern was to win the war as he saw it, and to do so at any cost. As for being buried with his troops, that is very noble. However, it is by no means unusual--at least in America. Check out the Notable burials section of Arlington National Cemetery. If you're going to persist on this issue, you may as well call for arbitration now... --(Mingus ah um 07:31, 16 May 2006 (UTC))


 * I have no idea why, but you removed my sourced edit in the intro regarding Irgun. Please do not do so again without good reason.
 * regarding 'Begin as fictional character'- Begin was concerned with the lives of his men to such a degree that he was regarded as a 'too humanist' by other underground leaders, such as Nathan Friedman-Yellin (for example see the case of the Irgun traitor Hilowitz, which he refused to execute - a common underground practice - even though the treachery was clear to everyone). If it's the word 'primarily' that bothers you, I have no problem with 'deeply' etc. If you insist in deleting the whole phrase completely, you are welcome to invite arbitration.
 * -Sangil 21:27, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

1) "you removed my sourced edit in the intro regarding Irgun. Please do not do so again without good reason." No, I did not. I haven't touched the intro recently, if at all.  Someone else has to answer for that. 2)"Begin was concerned with the lives of his men to such a degree that he was regarded as a 'too humanist' by other underground leaders" You mean, he was considered 'too humanist' by other underground leaders in Irgun or Lehi...  It is well known that the leadership of the vast majority of the underground (the Haganah) considered Begin to be a dangerous extremist hellbent on fighting the war by his own terms.

Regardless, I think that your suggestion that we replace "primarily" with "deeply" is a perfectly acceptable solution. I haven't checked your new edits, but, if you have not made the substitution, I will give it a shot. If you do not like what you see, revise at will... --(Mingus ah um 23:55, 16 May 2006 (UTC))

It was I who removed your sourced edit in the intro, and moved it into the body of the text. I think it fits better there, rather than in the intro, as this is an entry about Begin and not the Irgun. It is as if you would write in the intro: "Beign was the 6th prime minister of Israel, the world's only Jewish state established in 1948 following a UN resolution in 1947". It is perfectly legitimate to provide such context within the text's body, where it refers to Begin's history as the Irgun leader, however in the intro it is superfluous. Moreover, I think the wording is a bit too strong as one can argue about whether the Irgun was one of the "main" reasons or not, so I would suggest writing that it "played a significant role" in forcing the British out of Palestine. I hope you agree. Amirig 08:11, 17 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Mingus ah um - I apologize for "blaming" you for the move. As for the "Begin as fictional etc", I don't think Haganah was undergraound at all. Its leaders were well known to British authorities, and occasionaly the British would actually support it. Haganah took arms against the British only for a relatively brief period of 10 months. the most one can say is that it was a "semi-legal" group.


 * Amirig - I think one short phrase referring to Irgun in an intro of two paragraphs is not too long. As for being the "main reason" - that's exactly why I added the citation.
 * -Sangil 14:52, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Back to Menachem Begin as fictitious character: The best source of course is the first edition of Tintin au Pays de l'Or Noir. Herge often updated his Tintin stories. The one story he never updated was Le Lotus Bleu - The Blue Lotus - because it just would not fit any historic context outside of its original context of the Japanese-Chinese conflict of the late 1930's. With Le Pays de l'Or Noir, on the other hand, the sub-plot involving Begin and the Irgun was a minor one that could be eliminated without harming the main story in the least. Das Baz, 19 May 2006, 10:50 AM.

See article Khemed for more about the transformation of Herge's story. Das Baz 16:43, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

this man was a terrorist
he committed acts of terror just like the insurgents in Iraq and just like Hamas. he killed people boasted about it.

but god help you if you say it here on wikipedia or they accuse you of being anti-jewish. tell the truth and you get banned. so much for it being the online encyclopedia that anyone can edit.

when an arab blows up a hotel, he is a terrorist. when a jewish person does it he is a hero.

america wasnt attacked becase we are a free country. we were attacked because of our unwavering support for jewish terrorism against the palestinian people. if i am wrong, i beg to be told how.

and isnt it interesting when i changed some things in this article and referred to Begin's actions as "terrorism" i was reprimanded for it. but the 9/11 attacks are referred to as just that. so i guess when an arab does it, it is called "terrorism", but yet when a jew does it it is "freedom fighting".

==The Irgun attack over the king david hotel was an attack over the brithish headqourters, which was esteblieshed in the hotel, and was not intended to delibertly attack civiliens. And more then that, as it was proven, the intentions to blow-up the king david hotel were sent to the brithish along with the request to evecuate the hotel.

oh here we go with a zionist double standard. because it was an attack on the british headquarters it wasnt a terrorist attack? that is typical of the zionist. Keltik31 22:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The bombing of the King David Hotel is the single largest terrorist attack (most civillians killed) in the history of the Middle East. But unlike virtually every Palestinian leader, Begin is not catagorized as a terrorist. (Neither are Yizhak Shamir, Avraham Stern, or the latter day Jewish underground). So much for the neutrality and objectivity of Wikipedia. Abu ali 10:49, 16 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Whether Begin was or wasn't a terrorist, the bombing of King David Hotel was NOT the single largest terrorist attack (most civillians killed) in the history of the Middle East. In the 2005 Sharm el-Sheikh attacks more civilians died. But if you consider this a terrorist attack despite the fact that the target was military, why do you measure the size of an attack by the civilian death toll only? Amirig 04:08, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

you can forget about neutrality and objectivity here. even if you say that the zionist state commits acts of terror, which they do, just like Bin Laden, which they do, you will get barred from editing. Keltik31 16:04, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

i think the term jewish military resistence is bias, he was a terrorist in the same way the IRA were Terrorists. Capt JD

anti-begin quotes???
90% of the quotes that are on this article are sourced from an anti-israel palestinian website. How about putting some good quotes about begin and not making him look like a terrorist.

because he was a terrorist. someone who bombs a hotel is a terrorist. if it is terrorism when arabs do it, then why not when jews? Keltik31 22:14, 5 December 2006 (UTC)


 * The word Terrorist is now (righlty in my opinion) discouraged on Wikipedia as POV pushing. Unfortunately our Arab bashing friends get round this by adding large sections to the beginning of articles on Arab Leaders and organisation detailing their designation as "Terrorist" by various western powers. There are many of them on Wikipedia and they seem to have vast amounts of free time to blank my edits and push their particular form on "neutrality". sigh... Abu ali 15:15, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

wikipedia is a joke when it comes to be neutral. begin was a terrorist and so was Sharon. israel is a terrorist state and does it's evil deeds with the consent and taxpaer dollars of american citizens who are kept in the dark as to the facts by the zionist-controlled media. if americans knew what was going on there would be a demand. http://www.ifamericansknew.org/ tells a lot of interesting facts that you will never hear on ABC News or from the Assoicated Press. but if you say these things, the Wikitards call you Anti-Semetic as if you hate all jewish people. Keltik31 15:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

it just shows really successful lobbying to equate anti-zionism to anti-semitism. above all else, he was a zionist politician. he believed that the native palestinians had to right to the land due to the diaspora. by that logic, native americans should be given the west coast by the military might of brazil. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.72.194.33 (talk) 21:21, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Begin and terrorism
At reading all above comments I am compelled to introduce historic and grammatical truths. Begin should be considered an "insurgent" as he fought the occupying (British) army. He blew up a wing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, at that time the Headquarters of that army. His intention was never to kill civilians which would be the definition of "terrorist". Moreover, evidence shows that he would have preffered not to even kill British soldiers as he notified them well in advance about his intentions and adviced the British Command to evacuate the Hotel. Terrorism implies the indiscriminate killing of civilians on the other side, and worse -as we have seen lately- of civilians on your own side! The word terrorist has been used repeatedly to define Begin wrongly and in the same fashion the opposite occurs as well, such as today's expression "Iraki's Insurgents" which is a wrong one: they kill civilians with premeditation and that makes the Iraki "insurgents" nothing but terrorists. --Healkids 15:19, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

actually he faught against the British whow ere legally there supported by the UN mandate. He was a simple terrorist no better than the IRA. And so what if he advised peopel to leave the hotel-it wasnt right for him to blow it up anywayGashmak 10:14, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

this article should read that Begin was a terrorist. so he notified of the attack in advance, what is he? a terrorist with manners? Keltik31 15:43, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

the IRA used to notify the Brits before blopwing up their children-it didnt make them any less terrorists Gashmak 11:04, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Terrorism does not imply the targeting of civilians. Terrorism is "the calculated use of violence or threat of violence to attain goals that are political, religious or ideological in nature through intimidation, coercion or instilling fear". Begin was a terrorist whether you like it or not.

I know you Pro-Israel people hate admitting to these facts however terrorism is a huge policy in Israel. The use of terror/fear against the Palestinian civilians everyday shows this. The amount of times the IDF have targeted civilian buildings claiming insurgents were within shows the terorism they create and use. I couldn't care less if you believed an insurgent to be in the civilian building. If it's a civilian building you don't target it.

I'm ranting now but in conclusion Menachem Begin was a terrorist as was his successor Yitzhak Shamir. Tonezz 01:00, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Factual error
Herut won 14, not 18, seats in the First Knesset. knesset website is a source. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.92.157.195 (talk) 04:18, 4 April 2007 (UTC).

minor typo
Noticed a minor typo. Under Menachem_Begin, it says "Begin s has been mentioned in [...]". —AldeBaer 04:34, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Reagan
I'm not sure if this should be added or not, but from the excerpts released from Reagan's diaries it seems he was highly critical of Begin especially for bombing Iraq and invading Lebenon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.230.143.175 (talk) 01:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

A terrorist-from one who believes in the state of Israel.
The UN was the successor to the League of nations, and thus took over the responsibility for tha mandate system-they didnt end it. Thus Britains presence in Israel/Palestine was legitimate. Menachem Begin was a terrorist by any definition of the word-he conducted a murder campaign against thge legitiamte British authorities. And yet he is admired by many Israelis.

Why?

He is guilty iof, yet admired for, doing exactly what Israel condemns Palestinians for doing-committing terrorist attacks. Israel was founded in acts fo terrorism, yet wallows in national hypocrciy in regard to Palestine

For shameGashmak 10:15, 4 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Not only did he practise terrorism against the British and against the native Muslims, he practised it against the native Jews of Palestine too. Jews For Justice for Palestinians - Extracts from the letter signed by Albert Einstein and many other prominent Jews, letter to The New York Times December 4, 1948 "Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model. During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute." PalestineRemembered 14:05, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I am surprised this is hardly ever mentioned;the power of propoganda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tcherkessi (talk • contribs) 18:47, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Begin has NOT deserted
Online book by Korbonski clarifies it enough.

http://www.antyk.org.pl/teksty/ozydach-08.htm "Armia, której mundur noszę i której składałem przysięgę wojskową, walczy ze śmiertelnym wrogiem narodu żydowskiego, faszystowskimi Niemcami. Nie można opuścić takiej armii, nawet po to, aby walczyć o wolność we własnym kraju." "The army, whose uniform I wear, and to which I plead military pledge, fights with mortal enemy of Jewish nation, nazi Germany. One cannot leave such army, even for fighting for freedom in your own country.". The autor then goes on explaining how Irgun contacted with Drymmer, which then contacted Tokarzewski (who was Begin's friend) who then convinced Anders to give Begin release. Oficially (because British were already enraged by the fact that Polish army refused to follow the Jewish deserters, not to mention fact of military training given to Irgun) he went on military leave without limitation. Harvey Sarney in his book on Anders gave another version, that Begin was simply released, and the "military leave without limitation" document was prepared by one of Irgun leaders closely cooperating with Polish Military Intelligence. Szopen 07:38, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Terrorist
I am told by 6SJ7 that WP:WTA disallows the use of the word 'terrorist', and the point is raised with reference to the Irgun. The relevant passage runs:-"'Extremism and terrorism are pejorative terms. They are words with intrinsically negative connotations that are generally applied to one's enemies and opponents, or to those with whom one disagrees and whose opinions and actions one would prefer to ignore. Use of the terms 'extremist', 'terrorist' and 'freedom fighter' implies a moral judgment; and if one party can successfully attach the label to a group, then it has indirectly persuaded others to adopt its moral viewpoint.""In line with the Wikipedia Neutral Point of View policy, the words 'Extremist', 'Terrorist' and 'Freedom fighter' should be avoided unless there is a verifiable citation indicating who is calling a person or group by one of those names in the standard Wikipedia format of 'X says Y'. In an article the words should be avoided in the unqualified 'narrative voice' of the article."In the present case, X = Y (Irgun calls itself terroristic). Begin belonged to the Irgun, and the Irgun defined its activities as terroristic. Namely the National Military Organization (Irgun Zvai Leumi), in its memorial to the German Reich proposing a a collaborative effort in WW2 against the British, we find the declaration that:-"‘The NMO, whose terrorist activities began as early as the autumn of the year 1936, became, after the publication of the British White Papers, especially prominent in the summer of 1939 through successful intensification of its terroristic activity and sabotage of English properly. At that lime these activities, as well as daily secret radio broadcasts, were noticed and discussed by virtually the entire world press.""Die N.M.O., deren Terroraktionen schon ins Herbst des Jahres 1936 begannen, ist besonders im Sommer 1939, nach der Veroeffentlichung des engl. Weissbuches, durch die erfolgreiche Intensivierung ihrer terroristischen Taetigkeit und Sabotage an englischem Besitz hervorgetreten. Diese Taetigkeit, sowie die taeglichen geheimen Radiosendungen, sind ihrerzeit fast von der gesamten Weltpresse registriert und besprochen worden.Cited Lenni Brenner The Iron Wall 1984 ch.15 and Appendix 2" The Wiki reference is to a pejorative judgement laid against one group by another, or a third party narrator. In the instance cited, the Irgun itself defines its mode of operation as one of engaging in ‘terroristic activities’, and therefore the Wiki guideline is not pertinent.Nishidani 19:13, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * According to the source cited this was a term used by the Stern Gang, a radical faction that split from the Irgun. But regardless, one such anecdotal evidence does not make the Irgun a terrorist organization (people call themselves many names). What matters is that using this term carries an unambiguously pejorative and morally judgmental meaning for contemporary Wiki readers. As such it is in opposition to Wiki guidelines, especially when presented out of context. Amirig 03:24, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * You're correct that the Stern gang did split from the Irgun before making that proposal, but it defined itself during the split as still being part of Irgun Zvai Leumi. You are wrong on the rest. It is an official document, not 'anecdotal'evidence, of a sub-group of Irgun, whose members briefly disagreed with a temporary official Irgun policy of support for Britain, and as such does not constitute 'anecdotal evidence'. Moreover Irgun historians like Baruch Nadel attest that not only Yitzhak Shamir but all the leaders within the Irgun like Begin were well aware of the manoeuvre. It is no coincidence that on assuming power Begin honoured their leader with the issue of stamps commemorating him, and appointed his henchman Shamir as foreign minister. Thirdly, the use of 'underground group' everywhere on these article when they openly avowed that they assassinated civilians and politicians, is no less 'euphemistic' than 'terrorist' may be adjudged 'morally judgemental.' The latter describes policy, the former cleans murder of all judgemental innuendoes, so I suppose we will have to call Hamas an 'underground militant group', to be coherent, and removed all references to 'terrorism'?Nishidani 07:25, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with you on many counts (I would in fact define the Irgun as a terrorist organization). Also you have a valid point about underground being a euphemistic term. But note that the important issue is how charged the term terrorism is and what it implies. I am not at all convinced that today it carries the same meanings that it did when it was used - in German, mind you (or was it translated from another language?) - 70 years ago. So even if I agree that this is not anecdotal evidence, we still need to look at what it means. But our role here is not being historians. Look at the Wiki article on Hamas. It is never described as a terrorist organization per se (it is defined as a militant organization). The term terrorist is only used when describing how some define it. No claims are made about the extent to which this is true. Look at another famous terrorist-cum-freedom-fighter, Arafat. He too is defined in Wikipedia as a terrorist only in the eyes of Israelis. Referring to the Irgun as a terrorist organization in the first sentence in the article on Begin frames his depiction in a very pejorative context. I agree that he was perceived as a terrorist by the British, and arguably others, maybe even himself at times. But I am sure that Shamir would not have put both him and Arafat in the same category. This doesn't mean that they are or are not, but that the word terrorist carries a variety of contested meanings, and as such cannot be used in Wikipedia as a descriptive term. Amirig 00:11, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I think Irgun is a special case, they described themselves as terroristic, hence it's not barred under words to avoid. It's not clear to me that the word doesn't mean now what it meant then, throwing bombs into cafes, loading them into milk-churns and on board donkeys etc. And they were a "simple gang", so it's not like defining a mass movement as "terrorists", which may be more problematical. PRtalk 13:57, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

herut opposition years
i'd be interested in an explanation on why some uncorroborated op-ed notes by "Lilienthal, Alfred M", a known anti-israeli about a Menahem Begin visit to the US qualifies as WP:UNDUE to be inserted into "The Herut opposition years", a subsection dealing with the creation of Herut and how israeli politics were affected.  Jaakobou Chalk Talk  12:11, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd be very interested in an explanation as to why the clip might qualify as UNDUE too.
 * Perhaps you'd prefer we put in what Ben-Gurion was still saying of Begin 15 years later: "I have no doubt that Begin hates Hitler - but this hatred does not prove that he is different from him. When for the first time I heard Begin on the radio, I heard the voice and screeching of Hitler. ... If, one day, he comes to power, with his political adventures, he will lead the State of Israel to its destruction. [Letter from Bengurion to Haim Guri, 15 May 1963, cited in Michael Bar Zohar, Ben Gurion Vol.III, p.1,547; see Middle East International, August 1977; Kapeliouk, Amnon, Le Monde Diplomatique, June 1977.] PRtalk 13:42, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Jaakobou.The fact that Lilienthal wrote an anti-Zionist book does not disqualify him as a reliable source. The book, if you have read it, is not a pack of 'uncorroborated op-ed notes'. If 'anti-israeli' is an epithet designed to be attached to critical books and thereby disqualify sources, you'll end up banning a very large part of the academic literature on these subjects.


 * The charge of WP:UNDUE is grasping at straws. The event is well known, can be corroborated from many sources ('New Palestine Party,' New York Times (4 December 1948) (Letters), p.12.), and was an important failure for Begin's early post-war career and therefore cannot be overlooked. It belongs to the Herut opposition years because the page is organized chronologically, with the rise of Herut covering his early post-war activities, such as his attempt to gain foreign accreditation in the US. Nishidani 16:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure about the other stuff in that paragraph, but the bit about the letter whose signatories included Albert Einstein is definitely notable - the fact that it is on wikisource is a clear indication. пﮟოьεԻ  5  7  16:46, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Insurgency against the British in Palestine
There is no attempt to whitewash acts of violence against civilians. The Dier Yassin Massacre is mentioned later in the text, in its right context (the war of 1948 as opposed to the insurgency against the British). As for the other massacres, as this is very contentious please provide references to substantiate your claims. The term 'massacre' conveys a specific political point of view. Also, are you confident that Begin was implicated in these acts? Amirig (talk) 16:00, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

double standard
Bin Laden is labled an Islamic Terrorist, this man isnt labled as a terrorist in any way. He killed 93 innocent people and isnt a terrorist? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.79.15.102 (talk) 08:03, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Begin himself stated that his organizations weren't above terrorism. It was "terrorism," but don't get too worked up in a term that's so popular and subjective at the whim of propaganda.

Menechem Quotes
A quote by Begin to the knesset is deemed "dubious". Yes I know the quote seems stupid. However, being that the average IQ of an Israeli is only 92 (due to one-thousand years of khazarian inbreeding)... It does not seem quite so dubious afterall. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.177.10.53 (talk) 05:12, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
 * By the same token, anyone who believes that Begin said this has an IQ far lower than 92 (probably more like 29). Ditto for the so-called Wikipedia editors who add this kind of material without checking the reference --Gilabrand (talk) 06:10, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

It's sad to see these Talk-Pages disfigured by racism (even if it's a startling inversion to see it aimed at Israelis). However, the CAMERA reference doesn't refer to this quote on "Master Race", only seeking to discredit other quotes from the same author (Amnon Kapeliouk). This other effort is flimsy and unconvincing ("If the hand of any two-footed animal is raised against them" surely refers to all Palestinians, not just to terrorists amongst them). In addition to this faulty attribution, CAMERA is reknowned for it's own racism (we should use sources that speak of "Palestinian duplicity" the same day we use sources that speak of "Jewish duplicity") and cheating this encyclopaedia. So it's trebly incredible we use it seeking to defend a man with Begin's reputation. PRtalk 09:27, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia cites verifiable information. The fact that someone interprets it as "flimsy" and "unconvincing" is not relevant. This is the statement recorded in the Knesset minutes on June 8, 1982: "The children of Israel will happily go to school and joyfully return home, just like the children in Washington, in Moscow, and in Peking, in Paris and in Rome, in Oslo, in Stockholm and in Copenhagen. The fate of... Jewish children has been different from all the children of the world throughout the generations. No more. We will defend our children. If the hand of any two-footed animal is raised against them, that hand will be cut off, and our children will grow up in joy in the homes of their parents." Unfortunately, misquoting for political purposes is widespread. Wikipedia should not be perpetuating this.--Gilabrand (talk) 10:03, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Thankyou for the expanded clip, which neatly illustrates the point I intended to make. Menachem Begin did indeed refer to all Palestinians as "two-legged animals" (or beasts in some translations). Interestingly, at least one Israeli newspaper targetted by CAMERA refuses to take seriously, or even respond to, anything further from CAMERA whatsoever. Seeing as CAMERA claims (for that year) to have identified "multiple factual errors", while their listing shows just 5 fairly trivial ones in 13 months, one can understand the professional reporters irritation and disdain for them. Editors may safely act the same way, under WP:EXTREME, particularly in the light of the other evidence we have about their activities. Unless, of course, we want to be bogged down in wiki-lawyering and tendentious editing. PRtalk 12:24, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The Master Race "quote" inserted by the anon is a very obvious fake, vandalism if one wants to call it that.  Extraordinary claims require extraordinary sources.  Kapeliouk is a well known journalist and the two legged quote is well known. The idea that Begin would have said such a thing as Prime Minister is absurd, and that scholarship would have missed it while mining the same source for other information is beyond preposterous.  The excellent, pro-Palestinian blog by the very knowledgeable Lawrence of Cyberia has a post somewhere on the usage of such fake quotes and how to use common sense to detect them.  Digging it up with google might be a good idea.John Z (talk) 20:07, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

My comment is deemed racist, but I ask...why the censory? Do you wage war by deception? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.177.10.53 (talk) 03:26, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

And it is funny how the national debt rises 10k per second with dividends being paid out to the seif moses israel bank of italy. The inflation alone causing world starvation. Mabye the pope was right?

POPE CLEMENT VIII "All the world suffers from the usury of the Jews, their monopolies and deceit. They have brought many unfortunate people into a state of poverty, especially the farmers, working class people and the very poor.


 * I was going to remove the above, but then thought I'd leave it so we can see where this IP editor is coming from. As to the quote itself, it's pretty obviously (as agreed above) a fake quote. And of course - taking that as read - having it here in the article, sourced to Kapeliouk, actually makes Kapeliouk look bad for supposedly believing and reporting it rather than Begin for supposedly having said it. --Nickhh (talk) 07:59, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Wanted Poster for Menachem Begin
Is there anyone objecting uploading of the wanted Poster for Menachem Begin along with other Irgun members. Kasaalan (talk) 21:57, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

WikiSource of Einstein's letter
Wikisource has the page New Palestine Party; Visit of Menachen Begin and Aims of Political Movement Discussed How can we implement this to the article inline. Kasaalan (talk) 12:54, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Zionist vs Jewish
There is actually a Jewish state -- it's called Israel and it's recognized by most governments around the world. It can vote in the UN general assembly. I don't care who started the country, what political movement was behind it, it's not correct to speak of its citizens solely as "Zionists" -- we don't generally speak of a country's citizens solely in terms of a political movement. Please put in references from verified credible sources before changing those words around. :) Banaticus (talk) 21:37, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

There's compensation required due to the perceived taboo of criticizing israeli attacks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.72.194.33 (talk) 22:06, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Calling it the "Jewish State" is patently odd. It was called the Jewish state by its backers due to claims of ownership after the diaspora, - not because the world decided it to rope off an Arab Muslim chunk of the world and hand it to Jews. Banaticus, we refer to Israel's citizens as "Israelis,"not "Jews." -Zionists are those who believe in Israel's right to exist. -Israelis are citizens of Israel. -Jews are people who practice the Jewish Faith. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.72.194.33 (talk) 03:35, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
 * This is not a standard usage of the terms. Regarding whether to call an organization Jewish or Zionist, see below. Mashkin (talk) 15:04, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Misinformation and repetition?
Using your edit summary, (Why introduce misinformation and repetition? Where is the autonomy coming from?), I have reverted yours/the previous, but dropped ‘autonomy’ and changed it to ‘remove Britain’, with another suggestion. You may almost have your choice. That s not the problem, as I see it; the real problem is the rest of what is said about “The Revolt”. My NPOV position is that ‘militant Zionists’ should not be conflated so with generic ‘Jewish’. My prose does that, but I do not understand the alleged introduction of ‘misinformation and repetition’; understanding that might produce a better result. Regards, CasualObserver&#39;48 (talk) 02:23, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The current phrasing is cumbersome and not clear.
 * The sentences in question should clarify that (i) Begin was a leader of a small opposition group (ii) that he had a significant role in the *struggle* against British control in the waning year of the Mandate (this is not to say in "driving the British out"). Right now even the term militant appears twice. Mashkin (talk) 09:34, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I was still waiting for an explanation of 'misinformation', which you charged. I guess the sticking point now is which 'group' we are talking about.  You continue to conflate J and Z, and when one describes Begin, it is best to distinguish between the two.  CasualObserver&#39;48 (talk) 06:16, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The misinformation was the autonomy part and I wrote it above. Depending on the context one should use Jewish or Zionist. You did not refer to what I wrote.
 * In the years in question (44-48) there were times were Begin did cooperate with the mainstream (or vice versa) and this is overlooked in the current phrasing.
 * You introduced a really really confusing sentence in the winning eight consecutive times. Mashkin (talk) 14:14, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

The sentence ending the first paragraph in the lead is now "He played a significant role in Jewish resistance against the British control in the waning years of the mandate, leading the more militant wing." One issue is whether Jewish or Zionist are appropriate. Both are acceptable, but in this context Jewish is preferable, since Zionist would be be more applicable to describe activities wrt Jews outside Palestine. The part "leading the more militant wing" is important, not to give the impression that Begin was the leader of the resistance, which could be deduced without it. Mashkin (talk) 09:32, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure why this sentence is needed at all, since the preceding sentence already discusses the revolt. I suppose it is referring to the Irgun's part in the Jewish Resistance Movement, but I'm not sure if this is notable enough to be included in the opening paragraph of the lead section. -- Nudve (talk) 15:11, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Mentioning the actions themselves (or summarizing them (significant...) is in palce - ow we are left with the announcement of the revolt. Mashkin (talk) 16:59, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Alright. Although I suppose we could simply say that he led the revolt from 1944 to 1947, instead of stressing the proclamation. -- Nudve (talk) 15:22, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Begin and Polish Army
There is a contradiction in articles Polish II Corps and Menachem Begin:

Polish II Corps article states:

''After being relocated to Palestine, the Corps faced the problem of increased rate of desertions of soldiers of Jewish nationality, most of whom defected en masse to the Haganah. The most noted among them was Menachem Begin, the future Prime Minister of Israel. General Anders decided not to prosecute the deserters.''

But Menachem Begin article states

...he joined the Polish army of Anders, but was unofficially discharged from that army along with many other Jewish soldiers.

Begin (and other Jewish soldiers for that matter) can’t be a deserter and unofficially discharged at the same time. (This comment is posted on both talk pages, since I can’t tell which article contains incorect facts) -- Obradović Goran ( t al k  23:25, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * From what I've read, he refused to desert and he was released - but I have to chech my sources. Szopen 09:18, 27 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm adding a 'citation needed' tag.--Major Bonkers (talk) 11:34, 2 November 2007 (UTC)


 * There is still no citation. Anyone know of any documents that prove he was discharged?  If there aren't any, then he was Absent Without Leave, and the article should say so.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Prikulics (talk • contribs) 19:56, 14 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Harvey Sarner, "Generał Anders i Żołnierze II Korpusu" (don't know english name). I didn't add the citation, because I don't have enligh copy. Sarner write, that Begin was released, but in order to appease the British, special document was fabricated (If memory serves me right, by Meir Cohen or Kahen or Kohen? Kahan? Forgot the name) saying Being desertered. The same I read in several articles in on-line newspapers.

http://books.google.pl/books?lr=&id=GG-1AAAAIAAJ&dq=sarner+anders&q=%22menachem+begin%22#search_anchor Szopen (talk) 17:19, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

See also on Irgun
Since some Israeli POV users try to hide Irgun's actions very hardly, can we discuss about it.

List of Irgun's attacks, massacre's along with Arab ones has devoted title's. So don't tell me this is not related this is strictly related to the subject. Kasaalan (talk) 09:40, 30 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I understand these subjects may be of intense interest to you, but all one has to do is click on Irgun for more information. It isn't necessary to have all the "Main articles." IronDuke  13:51, 30 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Not really, if you deeply mention his polical career like "main articles: Camp David Accords (1978) and Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty" or Bombing Iraqi nuclear reactor Main article: Operation Opera, these are the actions of Irgun. So trying to censor this info will not succeeded. Acting POV on hiding his armed career is not helpful. These are devoted articles on the subject, that shows detailed info on the actions. Irgun is responsible for some massacres in history. I cannot find anywhere you mention the casualty numbers of civillians in the article for Irgun's public bombings. Only in king david hotel bombing, yet it is overall number. So especially List of Irgun attacks is directly related to the subject. Acting as a Begin fan not resolves the issue of being POV. Kasaalan (talk) 15:02, 30 April 2009 (UTC)


 * You Israeli POV users trying to begin an edit war actually. is the minimum to be compromised. Either prove your point by wikiguidelines or stop acting POV and biased and trying to censor Begin's armed operations that includes public bombings. Kasaalan (talk) 18:41, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I was surprised to find out about Begin's role Irgun's Mandate era acts. While some was legitimate rebellion there were many activities that were terrorist acts and Irgun is linked to the "Zionist Terrorism" category. Given Begin's role in various affairs shouldn't he also be linked to the the "Zionist Terrorism" category? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.70.105.214 (talk) 19:17, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Bombing plot assassination attempt against democratic West German chancellor Adenauer in 1952
Why this is portrayed as "claimed", where in fact historians, Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, The Guardian and all diplomatic services (the latter by not refuting the claims) recognized the veracity of the accusation, that Menachem Begin plotted and ordered the bombing of Konrad Adenauer's office - with or without lethal consequences for the elderly West German chancellor. Denying this is unhistorical and proves a clear POV. So please choose more factual wording. It is important enough to insert into the heading too. Important to process Israeli history.Smith2006 (talk) 13:36, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You have the claims, after many years, of the perpetrator saying he was sent by Begin. To assess such a claim you need a historian, i.e. a secondary source, rather than a journalist who records what the guy is saying. (The way the Guardian article is written, for instance, is a bit suspicious. I have also a dded an interview in Haaretz) I would like to see, for instance, what the recent biography of Begin by Avi Shilon has to say on the matter. Until then (i.e. at least one significant historian/biographer) I think that the way it is currently phrased is proper. Mashkin (talk) 17:21, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * One more thing, even if it is true (and it may very well be true), it is not such a significant event: the plot failed and Begin's involvement remained unknown, so it could not have much influence. It does show the nature of Begin's actions in those years. Mashkin (talk) 17:26, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Mieczysław Biegun
Could we have a source for the claim that he was ever called "Mieczysław Biegun"? Jewish parents did not usually give their children Polish Christian names. This can't just be given as a translation of his actual name without evidence that he used this name. Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 05:57, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Menachim begin quote - true or fabricated?
Is it correct that M. Begin once said the following?

''Our race is the Master Race. We are divine gods on this planet. We are as different from the inferior races as they are from insects. In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considered as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our leader with a rod of iron. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our slaves'' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.252.62.192 (talk) 13:26, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

The Begin Institute debunked this as the work of some French journalist. I can't remember the exact details but it's on their blog somewhere. There's no record in the Hebrew press of it and the language is so hilariously overblown, blatantly offensive, and out of line with Begin that it seems impossible. Sol Goldstone (talk) 19:04, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * See "Correcting A Misquotation Reputedly By Menachem Begin", Begin Center Diary, 27 May 2009. ~ Ningauble (talk) 15:42, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
 * It is hard to believe that anyone, except a madman, would make a speech like that isn't it? The purported quote, of course, was originally published in the article written by Amnon Kapeliouk, Begin and the Beasts, which was published in the New Statesman on June 25 1982. According to an article by Franklin Lamb in Counter Currents magazine, the article was published 48 hours after the Knesset speech given by Begin which supposedly contained the quoted words. Lamb goes on to say, "His report was to activate the Boston based McCarthyite Zionist hate group,  CAMERA to hound him until his death."
 * In answering a query about the genuineness of the quote, the Begin Center Diary uses this webpage and this CAMERA posting to answer. However, those two sources are not dealing with the quoted text, but another part of Kapeliouk's article (that is, the bit about two-legged beasts).
 *    ←   ZScarpia  18:45, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, the central point of the Begin Center Diary response is that the attribution cited as appearing in Kapeliouk's article in the New Statesman is not actually in that article. They then digress by discussing other controversial attributions in the New Statesman article, concluding that "someone invented the 'Master Race' quote and then tacked on Amnon Kapeliouk as the source, to give it credibility." Alas, an excess of digression criticizing the cited Kapeliouk piece somewhat obscures their central point: that the citation itself is bogus. ~ Ningauble (talk) 19:07, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The Begin Center Diary does state that the Master Race quote doesn't appear in Kapeliouk's article. Franklin Lamb, though (assuming the CounterCurrents editors haven't taken liberties with his article), says it does. A pity that the New Statesman archives aren't online.      ←   ZScarpia  02:45, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

even if it was true, Wikipedia would never print it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.142.255.231 (talk) 14:08, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

the introduction
why does the introduction not describe this man as a mass murderer? he killed 91 people when they bombed the King David Hotel. He killed more people than Jeffrey Dahmer, but he is not called a murderer? what a joke Wikipedia is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.142.255.231 (talk) 18:06, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

seconded
I totally agree with the above comment; however, I would go further and ask why does the introduction not describe this man as a TERRORIST. Because that is clearly what he was. Is it because he was Jewish, that allows us to use the euphemism 'militant'? Is it because he became prime minister? If this man were a palestinian alive today he would be called a terrorist. 115.64.28.195 (talk) 08:51, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
 * It is because "terrorist" is a word to avoid. We don't use it to describe Yasser Arafat or Osama bin laden, and there no reason to use it here. Tzu Zha Men (talk) 00:47, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Strange, since the Osama Bin Laden article calls him a terrorist multiple times. Leecharleswalker (talk) 06:13, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
 * No, it does not call him that even once. It says others have described him as a terrorist (and puts that in quotes) or the head of a terrorist organization. Tzu Zha Men (talk) 00:49, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

BBC's Age of Terror
A number of highly contentious statement were sourced to "BBC News, Age of Terror Part I In the name of Liberation (2002)". The BBC's 4 part series, "The Age of Terror" was produced and aired in 2008, and its part I is named "Terror International". I've removed these from the article. Tzu Zha Men (talk) 01:13, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Wrong

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0836828/

notice how it says 2002. The production company however was 3BM Television... although it was aired on BBC. So I have changed it to '3BM Television'

Leecharleswalker (talk) 13:23, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

The 2008 series is a totally different production http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/documentaries/2008/05/080530_age_of_terror_one.shtml

Leecharleswalker (talk) 13:28, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE in lead
I am (again) moving the following material from the lead into the body, per WP:UNDUE: "He was responsible[1] for the King David Hotel Bombing in 1946, which was for decades known as the deadliest terrorist attack of the 20th century.[2] Begin and his accomplices later justified their actions, saying they provided advanced warning that a bomb had been planted, which they claimed separated them from Islamic suicide bombers who provided no such warning.[3] Begin never shied away from the term 'terrorist', going so far as to refer to himself as one;[4] however, in one respect. He is known in academia as a founding figure of modern terrorism who set the mold which others, many of whose political opinions were diametrically opposed, would later employ.[5]" The lead should fairly summarize the article. The article has 3 sections about the man - his early life, his political career, and his role as PM of Israel. Of these, the "Early life" section is the smallest. Within the "Early life" section, there are 4 subsections, of which the "Jewish underground" is just one, and the King David bombing just a single paragraph in that context. In contrast, prior to my changes, the lead devoted nearly 1/3 its entire text to this episode. Despite accurately saying that his greatest achievement was signing a historical peace agreement with Egypt, for which he received the Nobel Prize, the lead describes it in just one sentence of 30 words. It is obvious that by comparison, dedicating 110 words, in a lengthy paragraph to the King David bombing is undue weight. I am also removing stuff that is sourced to a reviewer of a book on Amazon.com - that is not a reliable source for anything, let alone a contentious claim. I will also be asking for guidance on the suitability of the 3BM television series as a source on WP:RSN. Tzu Zha Men (talk) 23:22, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

why is this man hailed as some kind of hero as opposed to a brutal mass murderer?
91 human beings died when this man blew up the King David Hotel and yet it isn't mentioned in the opening part of the article that he is a mass murderer? what are the people at Wikipedia afraid of? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.76.44.75 (talk) 22:47, 24 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Because some people here have a political motive. Any controversial figure on here, you'll find such things occur. (Chill (talk) 08:07, 14 May 2011 (UTC))


 * Yes, he is a filthy piece of shit, and his misdeeds have been whitewashed on here. (Original comment by 116.30.145.126. Inflammatory opinion struck out of comment by    ←   ZScarpia  15:26, 27 May 2011 (UTC))

Lead section: targeting of the British in Palestine
Using Mearsheimer and Walt's The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy, the Lead currently states: as head of the Irgun, a Zionist terror group, he targeted the British in Palestine. The Irgun acted on a wider scale than Palestine. It bombed the British embassy in Rome and sent parcel bombs to politicians and people who had been connected with the civil administration and military in Palestine to the United Kingdom and even Bermuda. Using members based in France, it tried to mount a manned campaign in the United Kingdom, but was foiled.

The sentence continues on to say that Begin had a deep routed [sic] hatred of Britain, which would resurface decades later with his aiding and supply of illegal weapons to Argentina during the Falklands war. Since the Lead should be a summary of the contents of the article and the information about the supply of arms to Argentina doesn't appear in the body of the article, the information should either be moved, removed or written up in greater detail lower down.

   ←   ZScarpia  02:24, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Hebrew Calendar for Begin Dates
Because Begin is so associated with Israel, I would suggest posting things like his birth and death dates and his years in office both in the Gregorian Calendar AND the Hebrew one.

Satchmo Sings (talk) 02:38, 7 September 2011 (UTC)


 * If there is a policy on this, we should follow it. Otherwise, I disagree.  This is the English wikipedia.  People can use a calendar tool to convert the dates if they want. Zerotalk 02:43, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Resignation, or desertion, from the Anders' Army
At the moment there is some edit-reverting going on over whether Begin resigned or deserted from the Anders' Army (and over whether 3000 or 4000 other Jews also resigned or deserted). It's my understanding that the manner in which Begin left is disputed. Short of there being in existence documents which prove what happened one way or the other, I think that, if the article has to mention it at all, it should say that the circumstances are disputed. In any case, sources should be produced to verify what the article says (currently there are none). What the current version of the disputed text is claiming, that 3000 Jewish officers and men all officially resigned from the Anders' Army when they reached Palestine, does sound a bit unlikely to me.    ←   ZScarpia  18:11, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Results of Google Books search done on the term "desertion anders army -wikipedia".


 * The Oxford companion to World War II: "Men mostly deserted alone or with a few companions. Some of the 3000 Poles who deserted from 'Anders' Army when it arrived in Palestine subsequently joined Jewish resistance organizations (see stern gang and irgun) which fought the ..."


 * The Polish underground army, the Western allies, and the failure ... (Page 222): "The Poles were relatively sympathetic to the desertion of close to 2000 Polish Jews from Polish forces in the Middle East. ... But they add "most other Jewish refuges from Poland who had come to Palestine with the Anders Army shed their ..."


 * Memoirs from the Turbulent Years and Beyond (Page 72): "After Anders's army relocated to Palestine, the army faced the problem of increased rate of desertions of Jewish soldiers; most of them defected to fight for independent Israel. The most noted among them was Menachem Begin , ..."

   ←   ZScarpia  18:28, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

As far as Begin being an officer in Anders' Army is concerned, these are the results of a Google Books search on the term 'anders army "menachem begin" officer -wikipedia'. As far as I can see, none of the results, including books specifically about Begin, confirm that he was actually an officer.    ←   ZScarpia  19:53, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Regarding the 4,000 number, I don't see any support for it. Regarding how Begin left "Anders' Army", most sources I've found are vague on the subject, or simply don't mention it, and those that do mention it seem to hold differing views. Harry Hurwitz writes in Menachem Begin (1977)"His friends now urged him to desert the Anders Army, but he refused to do any such dishonourable thing and waited until, as a result of negotiations, he was discharged and permitted to enter Eretz Israel, then under British mandatory rule." Eitan Haber in Menachem Begin: The Legend and the Man (1979) also writes that Begin refused to desert, and that:"A while later Anders's Chief of Staff, General Ukolitzky [Okulicki - if you're going to try, at least get the spelling right], did agree to the release of six Jewish soldiers to go to the United States on a campaign to get the Jewish community to help the remnants of European Jewry. The Chief of Staff, who was well acquainted with Dr. Kahan, invited him to his office for a drink. There were a number of senior officers present, and Kahan realized that this was a farewell party for Ukolitzky. 'I'm leaving here on a mission, and my colleagues are throwing a party but the last document I signed was an approval of release for Menahem Begin.'" Amos Perlmutter cites the claim of Aryeh Ben-Eliezer and Mark Kahan that Begin was honorably discharged, but writes in The Life and Times of Menachem Begin (1987) that:"The truth is that he only received a one-year leave of absence, a kind of extended furlough, in order to enable him to join an Anders Army Jewish delegation which would go to the United States seeking help for the Polish government-in-exile. The delegation never materialized, mainly due to British opposition. Begin, however, never received an order to return to the ranks of the Army." He continues by mentioning a Polish document indicating that Begin with the object of a search by some sort of Polish authorities, but I don't know more about that. Bernard Reich in writes in Political Leaders of the Contemporary Middle East and North Africa (1990) :"In 1942 he arrived in Palestine as a soldier in General Anders's (Polish) army. Begin was discharged from the army in December 1943." The Begin Heritage Center states "At the initiative of Aryeh Ben-Eliezer and with the help of Mark Kahan, negotiations began with the Polish army regarding the release of five Jewish soldiers from the army, including Begin, in return for which the members of the IZL delegation would lobby in Washington for the Polish forces. The negotiations lasted many weeks until they finally met with success: The Polish commander announced the release of four of the soldiers. Fortunately, Begin was among them. Upon his release at the age of 30, Begin now faced what was perhaps the most important chapter in his life. He removed his Polish army uniform and became a “soldier without a uniform,” an underground fighter." So, the sources don't seem to agree, and the realities of formal authority during wartime, particularly for "Anders' Army" which at various times was under the authority of Władysław Anders, the Polish government-in-exile, the Soviet authorities, the British authorities, and/or all/none of the above, are likely complex. Jayjg (talk) 20:36, 15 January 2012 (UTC)


 * The only good reason that I can see for mentioning the circumstances under which Begin left Anders' Free Polish Army are to forestall editors stating it as fact in future that he deserted. Whether some description would be included directly in the article or appended as a note, I have no particular views over how it should be worded or the amount of detail given so long as, if something has to be included, at least a brief mention that some sources claim that Begin deserted is given.
 * I think that the mention of other Jews leaving Anders' Army should be removed. The numbers are disputed, it's hardly of any relevance and it looks suspiciously like it's been included for derogatory reasons.
 * I think that the material on Begin being made an officer should probably be removed. I can't find any confirmation of it on the Web or in my copy of Haber's biography of Begin (which doesn't, though, detail anything about Begin's time in the army between enlisting and leaving).
 *    ←   ZScarpia  14:23, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree with you regarding the officer claim (the Begin Center states he was a corporal) and about the number of Jews deserting the army. Regarding the rest, I've put in a complete footnote for now, but I have to ask which reliable sources indicate he deserted? So far we have only the self-published personal memoirs of Hubert Poetschke, a retired civil engineer, which doesn't really qualify as a WP:RS. Do you have any others? We can ignore the "contributions" of, whose only interests appear to be insisting that Salomon Morel was not Polish, and that Begin deserted - he just added Yisrael Gutman, Jews in General Anders’ Army In the Soviet Union, Yad Vashem Studies, Vol. XII, Yad Vashem, Jerusalem, 1977 pp. 231-296 as a source that Begin deserted, but I searched the article, and it never even mentions Begin. Jayjg (talk) 17:10, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * From doing a brief Web search, the sources stating that Begin deserted which might pass muster as reliable for Wikipedia purposes include:
 * The Oxford Companion to World War II (OUP, 2001): "He joined Anders' Army but deserted in Palestine and joined the Irgun, which he led from December 1943."
 * Who is Menahem Begin?: A Documentary Sketch, Muʼassasat al-Dirāsāt al-Filasṭīnīyah, International Studies Section of the Institute for Palestine Studies, 1977: "In 1943, having deserted from the Polish Army, he became the commander of the Irgun Zvai Leumi, commonly known as Etzel, from the Hebrew initials, or simply as the Irgun."
 * Profile - Menachem Begin, Walter Barker, ThirdWay magazine, April 1983: "In 1944, in Palestine, by which time an Allied victory was certain, Begin deserted from the Allied Forces and went underground to become the leader of the Irgun Zvai Leumi, an underground military movement, dedicated to establishing immediately a Jewish state in Palestine."
 * The Oxford Companion's article (a tertiary source, and therefore not ideal, I know) is curious as it gives Amos Perlmutter's The Life and Times of Menachem Begin as a source, yet Perlmutter states that Begin did not desert.
 * While searching, I came across another source which stated that Begin had been a corporal.
 * I'd like to state that I don't personally think that claims that Begin deserted are credible except perhaps in a very technical sense.
 *    ←   ZScarpia  19:15, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think these sources are strong, for various reasons, but Volunteer Marek's explanation below kind of supersedes this. Jayjg (talk) 16:57, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

From Stefan Korbonski :

"Po wyjściu ze Związku Sowieckiego Armia Andersa przeszła przez Iran i w 1942 roku przybyła do Palestyny, gdzie żydowscy żołnierze musieli podjąć ważną decyzję: zostać w Palestynie, czy walczyć z nazistami we Włoszech. Generał Anders pomógł im w podjęciu decyzji, wydając poufne instrukcje dla polsko-żydowskich żołnierzy, którzy chcieliby zostać w Palestynie, że nie będą uważani za dezerterów. Około 3 tysiące żołnierzy postanowiło zostać, tysiąc pozostało w szeregach II Korpusu Wojska Polskiego, biorącego udział w kampanii włoskiej."

(My) translation: "After leaving the Soviet Union, the Anders Army traveled through Iran and in 1942 arrived in Palestine, where Jewish soldiers faced an important decision: to remain in Palestine or to fight the Nazis in Italy. General Anders facilitated their decision, by giving "poufne" (hard to translate - could be "secret", could be "personal" - VM) instructions to the Polish-Jewish soldiers who wished to stay in Palestine stating that they will not be considered as deserters (my emphasis - VM). Around 3000 soldiers decided to stay (in Palestine - VM), and a thousand remained in the ranks of the II Corps, taking part in the Italian campaign".

Then:

Kapral Menachem Begin podejmując decyzję, czy zostać czy walczyć z faszystami, stwierdził: "Armia, której mundur noszę i której składałem przysięgę wojskową, walczy ze śmiertelnym wrogiem narodu żydowskiego, faszystowskimi Niemcami. Nie można opuścić takiej armii, nawet po to, aby walczyć o wolność we własnym kraju."

"Corporal Menachem Begin, in taking the decision as to whether stay (in Palestine - VM) or fight against the fascists stated: "The Army, whose uniform I wear and to which I made soldiers' oath is engaged in a struggle against the deadly enemy of the Jewish nation, Nazi Germany. One should not leave this army, even to fight for freedom in one's own country"

So what happened? Well, it gets a bit more complicated. I don't want to translate the whole thing but basically, there were two other Poles in the Anders Army here, General Michał Karaszewicz-Tokarzewski (second in command of the Anders Army) who had, like Begin been imprisoned in a Soviet concentration camp (maybe same one?), and who had organized the underground anti-Nazi resistance in Poland, and Wiktor Tomir Drymmer, former Polish Minister of Foreign Affairs and, according to Korbonski, a "supporter of Zionist military organizations, Irgun and Haganah". Drymmer contacted Irgun (Irgun in turn sent a message to the Polish army staff instructing them to mark their vehicles with Polish emblems rather than British ones, so that the Irgun wouldn't attack them) and then asked Tokarzewski to release Begin from the Anders Army so that he could join the Irgun. Tokarzewski was sympathetic and as a result called Begin in and gave him a "vacation pass without an expiration date". Korbonski doesn't say it explicitly but it's somewhat suggested that technically, Tokarzewski didn't have the authority to release anyone from the service as they were all technically part of the British Army or something - hence this "vacation pass without an expiration date" was a way of getting around this regulation.

So, what we have is:
 * 1) Begin had the rank of corporal.
 * 2) Initially Begin did not want to leave the Anders Army.
 * 3) He was persuaded to stay in Palestine by the Irgun and by Polish officers sympathetic to the Zionist cause.
 * 4) He was given a more or less "official" permission to leave.

Based on some other stuff I read, basically, the Jewish rank-and-file soldiers who left mostly just deserted, with tacit approval from Anders and other Polish officers. The Jewish officers usually would come and inform their superiors that they were thinking about leaving and usually given some kind of "official" release.

Korbonski is a reliable source, expert on WWII (and he played a big role in the Polish underground) and one of the Righteous among the Nations.

Hope that helps. Volunteer Marek 20:49, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

BTW, I'm not sure about the British or American system, but in the Polish army of the time a corporal would be a non-commissioned officer. Volunteer Marek 21:09, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for all the research. So, how should we summarize all that in the article? Jayjg (talk) 16:57, 17 January 2012 (UTC)


 * On the rank issue just say he was a corporal - I do think this is somewhat notable.
 * On the "leaving issue" how about something like:
 * "Upon arriving in Palestine, Begin, like many other Polish-Jewish soldiers of the Anders' Army faced a difficult choice between remaining with the Anders Army to fight Nazi Germany in Europe, or staying in Palestine to fight for establishment of the Israeli state. While initially he wished to remain with the Polish army, he was eventually persuaded to change his mind by his contacts in the Irgun, as well as Polish officers sympathetic to the Zionist cause. Consequently, General Michal Tokarzewski, the second in command of the Army issued Begin with a "leave of absence without an expiration" which gave Begin official permission to stay in Palestine."
 * That might be a little too detailed and could use tweaking. But putting in the details will prevent (somewhat, possibly) anon IPs or what have you from putting in the "deserted" stuff. Volunteer Marek 17:20, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
 * OK, I've added more-or-less your text, along with the Korboński source and a couple of quotes from the original Polish. Jayjg (talk) 16:50, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Leaving Warsaw
A large number of politically influential Jewish leaders left Warsaw as the siege began, fearing arrest, hoping to find at least temporary shelter in the Soviet zone of occupation to the East. This led to a crisis for Warsaw's Jewry, and led to Presiding Mayor Starzynski offering the leadership role to the highly respected Senator Czerniakow. This role was later confirmed by the German Commissioner-Mayor. Of course no sane human being could have foreseen the eventual fate of those Jews who stayed in the capital. 86.12.129.12 (talk) 11:03, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Begin's rank in Anders Army, and his leaving it
General Anders had to overcome considerable opposition in the Soviet Union to including Jewish citizens of pre-war Poland in the exodus, including 'advice' given him by Stalin himself. The exact circumstances of his leaving the army will never be known, as they were shrouded in secrecy to prevent British interference. Begin's rank was 'kapral podchorazy', or corporal-officer cadet, a slightly lower-status version of which he had at the beginning of the war, [see photo of M.B. in pre-war uniform] and was the major contrbutory factor to his arrest by the NKVD. This rank conferred many of the privileges of officer rank, and was treated with great seriousness by those brought up in pre-war Poland, as was Prime Minister Begin. To sum up then: nothing in the subject's make-up suggests he would ever consider, or consider himself, a deserter. as for ennumerating the number of those who left, the same caveats about secrecy at the time apply. How this could be seen as derogatory is beyond me. The best guess is still 2000-3000, of whom a great number would have both the military and politicalskills and experience to enrich the nascent Jewish struggle.86.12.129.12 (talk) 10:50, 22 January 2012 (UTC)


 * I used the term "derogatory" because I was assuming that, when the reference to 1000s of others leaving the Army was made, it was being used as a kind of smear. After all, there can't be many sources, if any which claim that so many Jewish soldiers all resigned, as the article was claiming. Not even Begin resigned, according to the best sources we have. These say that he was given leave of absence.      ←   ZScarpia  17:44, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

The leave of absence was clearly a device to save honor on all sides. The truth is, we'll never know the full facts; concealed at the time, no living witnesses remain. My only concern is to illuminate M.B.'s character traits. 86.12.129.12 (talk) 17:22, 24 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Bear in mind, if you're not doing so, that Begin was both loved and loathed. If you want to write about what sources say which illuminates Begin's character traits, you should be prepared to write about what they say which illuminates less admirable traits as well as admirable ones. Personally, I prefer statements whose intent is just to state facts rather to serve purposes such as illuminating things. Hope the tone of that wasn't too preachy. <span style="font-family: Perpetua, serif; font-size:120%">   ←   ZScarpia  18:31, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

The numbers for those that left that I've seen range from 2000 to 4000, with most between 3k and 4k. As I mentioned above the "general" picture is that officers were usually given some kind of semi-official or unofficial permission to leave (again, since the army was technically under British command at the time, the Polish officers didn't really have the authority to relieve those who wanted to leave of their military oath), while for privates there was tacit approval and just plain ol' "looking the other way". It's probably a good idea to leave idle speculation as to motives, or subjective assessments of what to call this out of the article. Volunteer Marek 17:53, 24 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, and thanks for explaining all the detail. <span style="font-family: Perpetua, serif; font-size:120%">    ←   ZScarpia  17:58, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Of course, some of those who left would have been criminals, opportunists and cowards - that's certainly how they were viewed by the British Mandatory authorities. It was not how most of them were viewed by the Poles, and certainly no-one could aim such an accusation at Menachem Begin. I think this period and his actions have been as clearly explained as possible in the article thus far. I do think, however, that his actions and initiatives in the pre-war period might benefit from more detail. 86.12.129.12 (talk) 10:43, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Influences
Gershom Gorenberg - "Unmaking of Israel" (2011). Chapter II 'Remember the Altalena':

"Besides Jabotinsky, the formative influence on Begin and his comrades was the Polish radical right, and more widely the European far right, with its belief in the nation as ultimate value, its trust in iron will over pragmatism, and its equal willingness to take power by the vote or the gun."

<span style="font-family: Perpetua, serif; font-size:120%">   ←   ZScarpia  21:27, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Why not accept the fact that "Irgun" was a terrorist organization?
The facts are there but still it is not accepted to put in the introduction that Irgun was a terrorist organization? Why? If murdering british soldiers and a swedish diplomat (Count Folke Bernadotte) isn't terrorism then what is it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yaya 35 (talk • contribs) 19:46, 29 May 2011 (UTC)


 * There does seem to be a slant whereby Begin's and Irgun's self-serving claims about the warnings are accepted when more reliable sources make it clear that the warnings were not delivered to the authorities in time for most victims to have escaped.--Peter cohen (talk) 23:02, 29 May 2011 (UTC)


 * What warnings? The incident about the King David Hotel is enough to make the Stern Gang look like a bunch of hippies. It has officialy been said that the staff of that hotel rushed to close down windows, and they are the ones who failed to reduce the number of casualties. Just how is that different to a good old fashioned victim-blamming? I am also wondering how he could lose political prestige over invading Lebanon, when the same type of action seems to boost the image of other Israeli PMs that are doing just that. --Stat-ist-ikk (talk) 09:02, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Warning or not, placing bombs is a terrorist action, point. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.136.1.28 (talk) 18:29, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

If this "the kidnapping and hanging of two British sergeants" is not terrorism then please tell me what it is!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.136.1.28 (talk) 20:51, 30 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Personally, I agree with you that Begin and the Irgun were terrorists. HoweverTERRORIST says that we should be careful of the use of such terminology. It needs to be attributed to particular WP:Reliable sources. Who is or is not a terrorist is in the eye of the beholder. As the government of South Africa changed, then what that state regarded as terrorist changed. Indeed if you look at Israeli official views of the Irgun, then the original left-leaning leadership proscribed Irgun as a terrorist group while the current prime minister, who is in the political tradition of Begin, praises them as freedom fighters. That is why we need to include who calls them terrorist rather than just state it as an objective title. Respected academic sources are the best to use. I think some can be found in the articles on the Irgun and the King David bombing.--Peter cohen (talk) 21:16, 30 May 2011 (UTC)


 * I do not agree that: "Who is or is not a terrorist is in the eye of the beholder". Terrorism is a simple concept - the use of terror to achieve political goals. The test does not include any consideration of whether the goal is desired by the commentator or not.  Bin Laden was a terrorist.  Menachem Begin was a terrorist. Nelson Mandela was a terrorist.  They may or may not also be "freedom fighters" or "nutcases".  The motivation for the terrorists actions is irrelevant. Similarly American torture of political prisoners remains the torture of political prisoners, and does not become something else just because it may, or may not, be justifiable.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.88.201.32 (talk) 07:10, 9 December 2011 (UTC)


 * The solution is surely simple. Since he was head of Irgun, which was operating at the time against the British forces in Palestine, why not just put in a sentence like: 'was as head of Irgun viewed as a terrorist by MI5 at the time'. The article on the King David Hotel bombing describes Irgun in such terms, and is sourced, and if it will do there then it would do here. Also, describing him in such terms provides counter-balance with the Yasser Arafat article, where Arafat is described in the introduction as 'reviled by many Israelis who viewed him as a terrorist', despite the fact that like Begin, Arafat too won the Nobel Peace Prize. Both were viewed as terrorists by some at some time. So in the interests of inter-article consistency I am going to add such a statement, taking the source from the King David Hotel bombing article. I hope no-one can logically object to that.1812ahill (talk) 12:16, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
 * To begin with, the sources have to be about Begin himself, not about the Irgun in general. Next, the fact that the British considered him to be a terrorist for 3 or 4 years is hardly worthy of mention in the lede, much less its first paragraph. Begin had a very long career, filled with all sorts of adventures and incidents; please review WP:UNDUE. Details belong in the article's body. Jayjg <small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) 17:46, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
 * With the logic of your 1st point you can then say that if I can't find a source stating specifically that Osama Bin Laden is a terrorist, despite being the head of Al Quaida, for which I do have a source stating it as a terrorist organisation, and that he is the head of it, then I can't call Bin Laden a terrorist. To me that sounds dangerously like 'Hitler is not responsible for the murder of 6 million jews, because he never personally killed anyone and we haven't got his signature on any documents which ordered their deaths'. I profoundly disagree with you. Begin was head of Irgun. Irgun was considered a terrorist organisation by the law enforcement organisation in Palestine at the time and place that Irgun was active, and Begin was also present at that time and place as its leader, dishing out the orders. He was therefore a terrorist as far as the law enforcement agency in question was concerned. That is surely an acceptable statement. As for the rest of your points, I see what you are saying, but the lede is chronological, so it would have to go in the 1st paragraph, and the King David Hotel bombing is fundamental to the founding events of Israel and his involvement in Irgun is a fundamental part of both that and his life. Would he have had the later career he had without his leadership of Irgun? I doubt it. Just look at the life stories of most of the rest of the Iraeli leadership.


 * Finally is it surprising that we might not be able to find a specific 'reliable' source stating that Begin was once a terrorist. Doh, such things are not said in 'respectable' sources, i.e. the invariably pro Israeli western press or publishing houses in general, and certainly not about Nobel Peace Prize winning heads of states. Do Arabic sources count as verifiable and reliable? Nope, I didn't think so either. 1812ahill (talk) 01:27, 1 March 2012 (UTC)


 * What Jayjg wrote is quite reasonable and accords with WP policies; to discuss Begin's career as a terrorist, you need reliable sources which do the same thing. As a start, you could try a Google Books search (which would turn up results such as The Routledge Handbook of Terrorism Research). You'll also have to try to pull off the trick of writing neutrally, though. <span style="font-family: Perpetua, serif; font-size:120%">    ←   ZScarpia  03:49, 1 March 2012 (UTC) (11:47, 1 March 2012 (UTC): struck out remark which has caused offence)


 * I agree with what you are saying, however, surely it should in some way be reflected in the article that 'some' people (forget about MI5 in 1946), namely (I can't cite a reference for the following statement yet) a very large proportion of the 1+ billion Muslims in the world would consider the actions of Begin as head of Irgun during the mandate times to have been those of a terrorist? Until now, the only incidence of the word 'terrorist' in the entire article is when it is used in the sense of terrorism against Israel. This does not reflect a balanced view. So, by stating in the introduction that 'some' consider him a terrorist and providing a source (from an article by a PhD - who presumably would not write such things lightly) I am only abiding by one of Wikipedias 'prime directives', namely NPOV.1812ahill (talk) 03:54, 1 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Btw, if I had uttered your last statement I would no doubt have been told WP:NPA by Jayjg.1812ahill (talk) 04:04, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I think it would be helpful if you reviewed WP:V. Wikipedia does not care about the alleged opinions of millions or billions of unnamed individuals; rather, it cares only about the views of reliable sources. Also, I think you should review WP:TERRORIST. Jayjg <small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) 22:37, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I love Wikipedia dearly, and this whole episode has saddened me deeply. You know what got me onto this whole sorry bandwaggon in the 1st place? It was seeing the smug face of 'Sara Agassi' (sic) in interview with Jeremy Paxman. She was the Irgun member who scouted out the King David Hotel to determine where best to plant the bombs to bring down the building. There she was after all these years, in interview, expressing not a jot of remorse, or even regret for playing the part she did in killing the very people who fought and died to help save her 'chosen' people during WW2 and without whom the nation of Israel would never have existed in the 1st place. Instead, there was a certain arrogant pride and self-confidence about her actions. So, I thought, who is this woman, who in any other western civilised democracy would have been shunned, or at least remained very quiet lest she be prosecuted for her actions? I couldn't find anything about her under that name in Google, (I have since found out that she is known as 'Sarah Agassi' and is feted in Israeli as a bit of a heroine) but, knowing she was an Irgun member I started reading a bit about said organisation, and that is when I came across the name of Menachem Begin.


 * I have since been perplexed to find that the word 'terrorist' and 'Menachim Begin' appear to be mutually exclusive, despite framing my sourced contribution in mild terms, and then even milder terms, but alas, to no avail. I could even frame it milder: 'has been considered by some to have been in his early years a terrorist'. But I bet that wouldn't do either, sourced or otherwise. Instead I have run into disingenuous arguments that cite wikipedia policy in an attempt to whitewash history and disassociate anything and anyone to do with Israel from the word 'terrorist'. ZScarpia, a 217 page document about terrorism doesn't address the issue I'm talking about. Jayjg, WP:TERRORIST says next to nothing of relevance, and your citing WP:V and WP:VS if applied in the sense you are using it would lead to the collapse of the entire Wikipedia project. WP:UNDUE I don't buy either for reasons I've stated above. If I were to follow your logic I could nominate the article on for instance Herschel Grynszpan for AfD on the basis of WP:ONEEVENT. So, finally in what way is Amy Zalman, PhD not acceptable as a source stating that Begin was involved in terrorism. Is your verifiability criteria a written confession from Begin that he was a terrorist or something similar? I await your reply(ies) with interest.1812ahill (talk) 06:41, 2 March 2012 (UTC)


 * On second thoughts, forget it, I should know better than to get involved in contentious issues like terrorism and for whom the word is and isn't applicable. I'll bow out of this and go back to editing typos etc.1812ahill (talk) 10:33, 2 March 2012 (UTC)


 * 1812ahill, I'm not against the article treating Begin's career as a terrorist, it's just that I think that if it's going to be done, it should be done well. There's not a lot of point of shoehorning the word terrorist into the article just for the sake of it being there. Something I'd like to see avoided because I think it would be tedious is the mere addition of lists of organisations, authors and books which take the view that Begin was a terrorist. Why they view him as a terrorist is the important thing. Also, the treatment should be neutral. For example, it should mention Begin and his supporters' defence, which was, I think, along the lines that their's was a just form of terrorism, freedom fighting, that they didn't target civilians (an untrue claim) and that, anyway, the British were the real terrorists because they were interning refugees in camps in Cyprus and not allowing unrestricted immigration. Any treatment should also be encyclopaedic in style. If you look, you'll see that you're really spoiled for choice for good sources. I'll help if you like. At the moment, the article either doesn't mention, or skims over, things that Begin is criticised for, such as the conduct of the Lebanon war (which was about more than the destruction of PLO camps, or pushing the PLO farther north, as the article - which, incidentally, fails to mention the role that the IDF played at Sabra and Shatila and, consequently, why Israel was condemned - currently states), policies regarding the occupied territories, ties with the Shah or Iran and ties with South Africa. Perhaps, treatments of those topics should be expanded or added in. For what it's worth, my opinion is that acts that the Irgun carried out, such as bombing market places, throwing bombs into civilian crowds and sending letter bombs (including, it's alleged, one to Konrad Adenauer in 1952), and things they planned to carry out, such as the poisoning of reservoirs, would be seen as terrorism by any reasonable and unbiased person. Perhaps, terrorism in a good cause, depending on your point of view, but still, in essence, very much what people tend to be talking about when they use the word.  <span style="font-family: Perpetua, serif; font-size:120%">    ←   ZScarpia  02:49, 4 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the helpful reply! I think though that I should stick by my last post. After looking at e.g. your user talk page I see that you know way more than I do about this topic, particularly wrt the KDH bombings and no doubt have access to far better sources than I could get hold of. I see that user:Dlv999 (posting below) has some very useful source listed. Perhaps you can work on it with him/her - I gather from his/her user page that this is an area of particular interest to him/her too. Also, apologies about the WP:NPA post, I think I misunderstood what you meant.1812ahill (talk) 03:25, 7 March 2012 (UTC)


 * As far as Sarah Agassi goes, the 2010 ynet article, "Then I saw a giant cloud – like in Hiroshima", explains her attitude: she believes the story that the Haganah fed the Irgun, that John Shaw ordered that no evacuation be carried out at the King David Hotel (saying, the British don't take orders from the Jews, the British give orders to the Jews), making the British responsible for the deaths. At the bottom of the article, it explains why she felt a bit betrayed by Begin.  <span style="font-family: Perpetua, serif; font-size:120%">    ←   ZScarpia  02:26, 4 March 2012 (UTC) (edited 18:02, 4 March 2012 (UTC))


 * 1) "Under Begin's command, the underground terrorist group Irgun carried out numerous acts of violence. In 1946 Irgun blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, killing 91 people. In 1948 it took part in the massacre of Arabs in the town of Deir Yassin - an incident that accelerated the Arab exodus from Palestine on the eve of the founding of Israel." Menachem Begin profile, BBC (April 1998)
 * 2) "Irgun Zvai Leumi (IZI) 'National military organisation'. The IZI was a terrorist group active between 1937 and 1948, when they joined the Israel Defence Forces. It was led by Manachem Begin after ther death of its founder, David Raziel. It was, inter alia, responsible for blowing up the King David Hotel in 1946 (which housed the British military inteligence headquarters; 91 were killed, 45 injued) and the massacre of more than 200 Arabs in the villiage of Dier Yassin in 1948." pg 648 ; "Terrorists like Manachem Begin have ended up as winners of the Nobel Prize for Peace." pg 72. Alex P. Schmid (2011) The Routledge Handbook of Terrorism Research: Research, Theories and Concepts
 * 3) "The extremists, known as the Irgun Zvai Leumi, had formed in the 1930s to protect the Yishuv, or Jewish community in Palestine, from their Arab neighbours, but were now conducting terrorist attacks against the continued British occupation....By the end of the war, the estremists had broken into two camps: The Irgun headed by Manachem Begin....." pg 36 David C. Rapoport (2006) Terrorism: The second or anti-colonial wave
 * 4) "an unrepentant terrorist who won the Nobel Peace Prize, then launched another war." Silver, Eric (1984) Begin, the Haunted Prophet.  quoted from NYT book review  and in  The Nobel Peace Prize and the Laureates: An Illustrated Biographical History, 1901-2001''
 * 5) "The conservative Israeli government of Manachem Begin, once a terrorist himself......" Irwin Abrams (2001) The Nobel Peace Prize and the Laureates: An Illustrated Biographical History, 1901-2001.
 * 6) "Of course, Menachem Begin, who headed the Irgun and later became prime minister, was one of the most prominent Jewish terrorists in the years before Israeli independence. When speaking of Begin, Prime Minister Levi Eshkol often referred to him simply as "the terrorist".12"... "It was Jewish terrorists from the infamous Irgun, a militant Zionist group, who in late 1937 introduced into Palestine the now-familiar practice of placing bombs in buses and large crowds. Benny Morris speculates that "the Arabs may well have learned the value of terrorist bombings from the Jews.16" pg 102 John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt, The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy, at 102 (Farrar, Straus and Giroux 2007). - NB this is actually the current citation for the lead.
 * 7) "...together with a number of other prominent Jewish intelectuals, including Hannah Arendt and Sindey Hook, Einstein signed an open letter calling attention to what the group considered among "the most disturbing political phenomena of our times.."...Wishing to dispel the impression of American support for the party in the upcoming Israeli elections, the signatories protested the visit the visit to the United States of the party's leader, Menachem Begin, head of "the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvainist organisation in Palestine." Among other actions, the Irgun had perpetrated an atrocity....." pg 350 - David E. Rowe, Robert Schulmann (2007) Einstein on Politics: His Private Thoughts and Public Stands on Nationalism, Zionism, War, Peace, and the Bomb  Dlv999 (talk) 18:29, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

If fighting against an oppressive British imperialist regime is considered terrorism, then Wikipedia should also label George Washington and the American Revolutionaries terrorists. Unless Wikipedia has a bias against Jews. But that cannot be the case because Wikipedia is a neutral liberal encyclopedia and would never be so discriminatory, would it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by SNwsbnj (talk • contribs) 19:28, 4 October 2012 (UTC)


 * History is always written by the victors. If a Washington type popped up in america today he'd be called a terrorist. It's just like in Israel, where people forget that if it hadnt been for the Brits, their country might still be part of the Ottoman Empire, and certainly would never have existed in the 1st place. Why does no-one remember the Balfour Declaration. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.46.139.31 (talk) 18:03, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Israel and the United States of America only exist because of "British imperialism". British colonists were deliberately planted in North America, just as Jews were planted in Palestine by the UK. By the way, Washington was not a terrorist, though Begin unquestionably was. (92.11.204.130 (talk) 16:01, 3 January 2014 (UTC))

Improving the "Depictions in Film and Fiction" section
Concerning this part:

"Chris Claremont, longtime writer of the X-Men comic book, has said that Begin reminds him of the character Magneto.[53]"

Is there a way to hyperlink directly to the X-Men comic book character? If you're not familiar with the context, it's a bit tricky to redirect yourself to the relevant information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.197.91.136 (talk) 02:48, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Guerrilla warfare
Plotspoiler and Hayes Dolce:

Definition of guerrilla warfare by Walter Laqueur: "The essence of guerrilla warfare is to establish foci, or liberated areas, in the countryside and to set up small military units which will gradually grow in strength, number and equipment—from squads to companies and regiments, eventually to divisions and armies, as in Yugoslavia and China during the Second World War—in order to fight battles against government troops. In the liberated areas, the guerrillas establish their own institutions, conduct propaganda and engage in other open political activities. None of this applies to terrorists, whose base of operations is in the cities, and who have to operate clandestinely in small units. Any major concentration would immediately expose them to retaliation by the government. The terrorists may be part of a political movement that engages in propaganda and other political activities (such as the IRA and the Basque ETA), but there is a strict division of labor between the legal and the military arms of the movement."

That definition of guerrilla warfare does not match the methods used by the Irgun. If you want to describe those methods as such, at least find a decent reliable source for it; note, though, that even if you manage to do that, you will then have to clear the neutrality hurdle as well.

(Also see: Online Britannica article on Guerrilla Warfare)

<span style="font-family: Perpetua, serif; font-size:120%">   ←   ZScarpia  15:52, 31 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Unlike the Boers or the (original) IRA, the Irgun were not fighting a guerrilla war by any definition. They were simply terrorists targeting civilians. (92.11.204.130 (talk) 16:08, 3 January 2014 (UTC))


 * Begin was a terrorist like Y. Shamir and ordered the deadly bomb plot on sitting German chancellor Adenauer. This is well-known except it will never appear in wikipedia for obvious reasons 91.60.139.12 (talk) 12:53, 25 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Details of the attempt on Adenauer's life have been part of the article for a long time. <span style="font-family: Perpetua, serif; font-size:120%">    ←   ZScarpia  10:20, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Deir Yassin in introduction
This sentence appears in the introduction: "During his leadership Irgun targeted the Arabs in the Deir Yassin massacre."

I think it's a bit strange to mention one particular operation out of the many the Irgun carried out in the introduction, much less one subject to such controversy. There were plenty of other individual Irgun operations against the British and Arabs, why not mention them all in the introduction?

The randomness of this quote leads me to believe this was put in the intro for political reasons. I suggest removing this from the introduction.-- RM ( Be my friend ) 00:47, 7 March 2015 (UTC)


 * The intro is poorly written and could use revision. Another problem is that "He proclaimed a revolt, on 1 February 1944, against the British mandatory government, which was opposed by the Jewish Agency." is ambiguous (JA opposed the Brits or the revolt?) — probably JA shouldn't be mentioned. If written properly the Deir Yassin massacre and King David Hotel could be mentioned in a few words each, since they are the most famous pre-state actions carried out under Begin's command. Zerotalk 12:07, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Secular Judaism?
This is listed as his religion, with a wikilink to "Jewish secularism". The article linked as a source (reference) makes no mention of the word "Judaism." I think it is misleading to characterize his religion this way, especially considering that he believed that as a Jewish country, there could never be a complete separation of religion and state in Israel. He was a non-observant but traditional Jew who kept very many observances. The label "secular Jew" falls woefully short. Let's come up with something better. MosheEmes (talk) 17:17, 3 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Actually, I now see that the linked article specifically contrasts him with secular prime ministers. I'm changing his designation to simply, "Judaism". This is just like the religion listed for Zalman Shazar, third President of Israel and not strictly orthodox but with warm connections to the Jewish religion and observance. MosheEmes (talk) 15:47, 4 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Also, Mikrobølgeovn's contention that he was "secular in the sense that he was not religious, at least not particularly" is not true. In fact, in public he was completely Sabbath observant, he kept kosher even at home, he fasted on Tisha B'Av (not just Yom Kippur) etc. Se p. 446 of "The Prime Ministers", Yehuda Avner, Toby Press 2010. MosheEmes (talk) 15:55, 4 May 2015 (UTC)


 * He was definitely observant, but as the source states, this had more to do with culture and identity than actual religious faith. Stating Judaism alone is extremely vague, as it can mean anything from Reform to Ultra-Orthodox (and these terms don't even make that much sense in an Israeli setting). --Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 18:05, 4 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Mikrobølgeovn wrote: "He was definitely observant, but as the source states, this had more to do with culture and identity than actual religious faith." His observances were certainly strongly connected to his sense of culture and identity, but they don't imply an exclusion of religious faith. In fact, there is a pretty clear self-description of his faith given by Begin in "The Prime Ministers" pp. 558-559: Max Fisher asks, "You're a man of belief, are you not?" He answered, “If by that you mean, am I a mystic, then the answer is no. But am I a believer – do I believe in Elokei Yisrael, the God of Israel? The answer is a categorical yes. How else to account for our success in accomplishing the virtually impossible? Every conceivable type of enemy weaponry was arraigned against our pilots when they flew in and out of Baghdad. They had to face anti-aircraft guns, ground-to-air missiles, fighter planes – all there to defend Osirak – yet not a one touched us. Only by the grace of God could we have succeeded in that mission.” In answer to your statement that "Judaism" is vague, it certainly is, but in the context of Begin and Israel (as you pointed out), it will have to suffice. He didn't affiliate with any so-called denomination. His closest religious connections were with the orthodox, which was his upbringing, but he was not orthodox. So how do you describe a Jewish man who had faith in God and kept many traditional observances, who was not Reform, Conservative or Orthodox? By the good old classical label: Jewish! His religion was "Judaism" full stop. MosheEmes (talk) 14:05, 5 May 2015 (UTC)


 * And with that, I am more than happy to back down. That source should definitely be added to the article, too. Cheers! --Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 20:17, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

about begin and his opinions
""As a party, Herut, was far right. In the center-right coalition, it was pro-west, antisocialist, anti-labor, favoring a hard-line policy toward the Arab states and retention of much of the territories taken in the six-day war, a shift from that of the Israel Labor Party’s positive neutralist." http://www.e-ir.info/2012/01/27/likud-a-balance-of-historic-ideology-and-reality/ here it said the herut was little extreme and the likud which found by the same man was more moderate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.246.133.26 (talk) 19:46, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Begin and Tintin
The article currently states, "A slightly fictionalized Menachem Begin appeared in the first edition of Land of Black Gold ..." referring to the album from The Adventures of Tintin by Hergé. However, this does not make sense, because the first edition of Land of Black Gold was published from 1939 to 1940 (ending in mid-adventure due to the German invasion of Belgium). At the time, Begin had not yet moved to the British Mandate for Palestine nor joined the Irgun, so he could not plausibly have figured into the story. A version of Begin might have appeared in the second edition of Land of Black Gold, published 1948-1949, but no source has been provided to indicate that Begin is depicted in that edition of the album. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 04:29, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Falklands War
Is there any truth in this claim, or is it just a rumour? (JackDouglag (talk) 16:48, 26 June 2015 (UTC))

Mieczyslaw Biegun
I believe this issue was brought up in the last archive, but there was no solution. If there is no source referring to Begin as "Mieczyslaw Biegun" then it ought to be removed from the introduction.Fischia Il Vento (talk) 20:43, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Additionally, the presence of the Russian version of his name, Менахем Вольфович Бегин, is strange in that Begin had little connection to Russia other than the fact that Poland was part of the Russian Empire when he was born, and it has a patronymic, Vol'fovich, despite the fact that his father's name was Zeev, as the article states. If there is no source for either of these, I will be removing them. One last note, Biegun, seems to be a Polish surname that has been equated to Begin in the article for the sake of translation, despite no source using it as such. Fischia Il Vento (talk) 21:01, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

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1941/1942 Timeline and Travel to Palestine
One paragraph has him in a camp in the Soviet Union until May 1942

"On 1 June 1941 he was sent to the Pechora labor camps in Komi Republic, the northern part of European Russia, where he stayed until May 1942."

The next paragraph has him released from the camp in July 1941, and arriving in Palestine in May 1942.

"In July 1941, just after Germany attacked the Soviet Union, and following his release under the Sikorski–Mayski agreement because he was a Polish national, Begin joined the Free Polish Anders' Army as a corporal officer cadet. He was later sent with the army to Palestine via the Persian Corridor, where he arrived in May 1942."

When was he released from the Pechora camp? July 1941, May 1942 or some date in between? When did he arrive in Palestine? Thanks. Darkstar8799 (talk) 19:23, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 October 2017
I wish to change the initial sentence in the Biography section of this page, as saying that Begin was born to two individuals "...of Polish Jewry..." borders on sounding very racially charged. Perhaps better wording would sound more objective and professional. Spockofdagobah (talk) 12:54, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:35, 26 October 2017 (UTC)