Talk:Menachem Begin/Archive 3

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Irgun
Irgun was 1) a terrorist organization by the United Nations, British, and United States governments; in media such as The New York Times newspaper; as well as by the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, the 1946 Zionist Congress and the Jewish Agency and 2) aimed Arab civilians as well, long before the 1947–48 Civil War. So the mitigative phrases defining Irgun should be edited as

Begin was a monster, who deliberately chose to side with the Nazis and fight against the British during the Second World War. But the article can't say that, because it just has to trot out what the published 'reliable sources' say. Khamba Tendal (talk) 18:00, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:29, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Menachem Begin in September 1940.jpg

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 August 2020
His birth name is Мечислав Вольфович Бегун in Russian and Mieczysław Wołfowicz Biegun when transliterated into Polish. Spafky (talk) 13:29, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.  Username 6892 14:18, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * : Just google "Mieczyslaw Begin" and you will find multiple websites mentioning this. This has been mentioned on the Russian, Polish and Hebrew editions of Wikipedia. On the Hebrew edition the source given is :  Avi Shilon, Menachem Begin: A Life, trans. Danielle Zilberberg and Yoram Sharett (New Haven, Conn.: Yale University Press, 2012), p.p 5-7

The Wolfovich part of his name is a patronymic - commonly used in the Russian language and customary for pretty much everyone in the Russian Empire at the time - barring Turkic peoples. --Spafky (talk) 09:13, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
 * As far as I can tell, this information does not appear in the book of Shilon. Zerotalk 10:24, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Born in Poland
Menachem Begin was Born in Poland. That time Poland was occupied by Russia but it was still Poland and because of that he was named Mieczysław Biegun. It should be written clearly that he was born in Poland. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.192.15.8 (talk) 06:59, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 December 2020
Hello, The URL of the Menachem Begin Heritage Center is incorrect. change the official website of the Heritage Center to https://www.begincenter.org.il/?lang=en Eliya Nahmani (talk) 11:35, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

✅ Thank you for your request; the link has been fixed.

Neoliberal economic bias
These statements are obviously not unbiased and are made from a neoliberal "orthodox" economic approach that reccommends "austerity" in all cases much like IMF consensus but against both keynesian, socialist, and marxist economics; yet it is stated as pure unadulterated fact that inflation is cause by "government spending" and not by the deregulation of trade and the end of subsidies and price controls:

''the fact that government spending was not significantly reduced in tandem with the liberalization program triggered a massive bout of inflation. On 17 July 1978, the Israeli cabinet met to discuss rising inflation, but Begin, declaring that "you cannot manage economics over the housewife's back", halted all proposals. In the end, the government decided not to take any actions and allow inflation to ride its course. Begin and his other ministers did not internalize the full meaning of the liberalization plan. As a result, he blocked attempts by Erlich to lower government spending and government plans to privatize public-sector enterprises out of fear of harming the weaker sectors of society, allowing the privatization of only eighteen government companies during his six-year tenure''

"Only" eighteen privatizations? (said as if that was so very little when they are on strategic national interests and "Not enough"); yes, this is obviously not compatible with the neutrality of wikipedia. Note how the previous Labor government didn't have hyperinflation for 30 years while sustaining higher spending. Also notice how not a single source is quoted throught. The section needs to be rewritten, opinions attributted and contrasting analysis added. --186.141.133.178 (talk) 19:27, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Unless you have WP:RELIABLE sources that discuss this from a different point of view you're wither [wp:POV pushing or doing orignal reaserch (WP:OR), neither of which belong on wiki—blindlynx (talk) 23:25, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

tertiate
Why is it notable that Begin invented a new meaning for an obsolete word? Was the rest of his life so uninteresting that this is worth including in his biography? Personally I think that this is inappropriate, and having a whole section on it is ridiculous. Zerotalk 11:34, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Second infobox in the middle of the article
Political career section has another infobox, overlapping with the main one. There is a discussion to merge these infobox templates. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 17:00, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 July 2021
Add Category:Ministers of Transport of Israel. Quacelinz3 (talk) 20:10, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. - the article doesn't mention that he ever held this role (that I could find) SSSB (talk) 11:57, 14 July 2021 (UTC)


 * It's on the hebrew wikipedia but there's no source and it's not included in the infobox, so you're right, we shouldn't add it yet. Bwmdjeff (talk) 22:57, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 July 2021 (2)
Add Category:Leaders of the Opposition (Israel). Quacelinz3 (talk) 20:21, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Extended-protection-unlocked.svg Not done: According to the page's protection level you should be able to edit the page yourself. If you seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. I would do this myself but I am not yet extended confirmed. I have noticed, however, that you are - as of 08/03/2021. A belated congratulations on that milestone, and happy editing! –– Sirdog9002 (talk) 04:46, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Mieczysław Biegun
This article by historian Philip Steele provides very convincing evidence that Begin never used the name Mieczysław Biegun. Moreover, our article does not appear to contain a reliable source that he did. So I'm removing it from the article. If it goes back, it should not be in the lead but instead be something like this: "The name Mieczysław Biegun sometimes attributed to him has no documentary support.[ref]". Zerotalk 02:09, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 December 2021
"He had asked to be buried there instead of Mount Herzl, where most Israeli leaders are laid to rest, because he wanted to be buried beside his wife Aliza, as well as Meir Feinstein of Irgun and Moshe Barazani of Lehi, who committed suicide in jail while awaiting execution by the British."

Change to "committed suicide together in jail". It is not clear from this sentence that they both committed suicide.

As per Moshe Barazani's Wikipedia entry: "The two embraced each other with the live grenade lodged between them." As per Meir Feinstein's Wikipedia entry: "They lit the grenade and then stood embracing each other, with the grenade lodged between them." Scotty1141 (talk) 10:00, 4 December 2021 (UTC)


 * ✅ Thanks for the suggestion. Zerotalk 12:53, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 January 2022
Please add the following book to the additional reading section: Ofer Grosbard, Menachem Begin : the absent leader. [Glilot] : Strategic Research and Policy Center, National Defense College, IDF, [2007?] Dovidroth (talk) 08:37, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Are there any sources that support this as a seminal or important work on Begin? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:26, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 April 2022
The Menachem Begin subsection clearly does not belong under the 'Death' Section and should be moved to it's own part of the article. ― TaltosKieronTalk 19:29, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
 * I just removed the whole section as essentially unsourced and undue. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:37, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Edit request: Wording
In the first paragraph, change the following:

As head of the Irgun, he targeted the British in Palestine

to

As head of the Irgun, he targeted the British in Mandatory Palestine

-

This is to prevent readers from confusing Mandatory Palestine and Palestine the state — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xland44 (talk • contribs) 07:41, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Irgun

 * All sources mention Irgun being a terrorist organization, not a "militant" organization. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:11, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 January 2023
An edit should be made to add more information about Menachem Begin. The following: "Begin gave the Israeli Air Force the order to strike Iraq's Osirak nuclear facility in 1981 because the Iraqi government was constructing nuclear weapons there. Although the world community at the time roundly criticized Israel, it became clear during the Gulf War of 1991 that Israel's action had been successful in preventing Baghdad's pursuit of nuclear weapons." Aandewatches (talk) 07:24, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Argumentative, inaccurate, and unsourced. Zerotalk 08:13, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Military service
Begin never served with Israel, rather with the pre-Israel zionist Irgun. The use of the Israeli flag by his military service is inaccurate, and should be replaced with the Irgun logo Helpfulguy101 (talk) 17:33, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 July 2023
The following quote in the first paragraph should be deleted stating that: Begin was also noted as "leader of the notorious terrorist organisation" by British government and banned from entering the United Kingdom.[3]"

The quote doesn't fit in with the part of the introduction where it is placed and is also mentioned later on in the article during the Herut Opposition Years section. He was considered a terrorist by the British for his actions against the British mandate, but he could equivalently be viewed as a revolutionary hero. Moreover, Begin's later actions as a statesman and prime minister may overshadow his actions as an anti-British militant.

There is more nuance here then that quote shows, and placing it so prominently in the beginning of the article biases the portrayal of Begin. The quote should be deleted from the first paragraph and left for later in the article. Noamthinks (talk) 14:33, 20 July 2023 (UTC)


 * I think that it is WP:DUE, but I honestly have no idea. Wait for someone with more experience in NPOV. Edward-Woodrow :) [ talk ] 17:37, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I also think it's due. The NPOV may be in the same source (Haaretz):
 * The 34-page file released by the National Archives documents two of Begin's attempts to obtain a visa to Britain. The first, between 1953 and 1955, was rebuffed contemptuously. The second, after Begin had served as a minister in Levi Eshkol and Golda Meir's governments for three years, succeeded in 1972, five years before he became prime minister. [...] after Begin had already served as a minister, he would visit British Ambassador Ernest John Ward Barnes at his Ramat Gan residence. Barnes wired to London that Begin was talking about Britain "in terms of friendship and admiration." He said times had changed and urged the government to allow Begin to visit the country. [...] In 1971, this argument worked. In 1972, almost 25 years after the British Mandate had ended, the British grew tired of the battle and granted Begin his coveted visa.
 * So I propose FROM: Later, the Irgun fought the Arabs during the 1947–48 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine and its chief Begin was also noted as "leader of the notorious terrorist organisation" by the British government and banned from entering the United Kingdom.
 * TO: Later, the Irgun fought the Arabs during the 1947–48 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine and, as its chief, Begin was described by the British government as the "leader of the notorious terrorist organisation" and declined an entry visa to the United Kingdom between 1953 and 1955. However, Begin's overtures of friendship eventually paid off and he was granted a visa in 1972, five years prior to becoming prime minister.
 * I'll let this request sit open a bit to draw more attention. Please continue to discuss. Xan747 (talk) 23:21, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I concur. The additional context would be an improvement and help the flow. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:40, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Thirded per the above. Edward-Woodrow :) [ talk ] 10:45, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ Xan747 (talk) 12:14, 21 July 2023 (UTC)