Talk:Menarche

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 1 July 2019 and 23 August 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Mquindoy, Docwoods12, Dchnggg, Xmrlmem. Peer reviewers: Zaccarlson, Nzargham.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 03:52, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Text needs discussion
Moved text to talk for discussion. --FloNight 16:24, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

''Over the centuries, menarche has occurred younger, jsut as people have grown taller, due to improved diet and health. Recently it's been recognised that girls who don't live with their natural fathers (genetic fathers) reach puberty younger. Interestingly girls who grow up with another man (perhaps a cuckolded husband) reach puberty earliest, averaging 9 months younger. This often results in girls reacing puberty in primary school, before most sex education commences. (Ellis, Bruce J. Child Development; Vol. 74, no. 3 May / Jun. 2003)''

Flonight, the move was the right thing. This is a crucial and fascinating topic. Main significance is not "cuckolding" (which we need to delete), but stepfathers or "mother's boyfriend". There are some extremely touchy angles to this issue for individual families. Besides the cuckolding comment, the other problems with the paragraph you moved here are
 * 1) it lacks a mention of the magnitude of the phenomenon (i.e., does the presence of a non-related man in the household make puberty earlier by 1 month or 3 years on average-- big difference),
 * 2) if it refers to puberty in general being hastened, it might go better in the puberty and precocious puberty articles,
 * 3) the referenced article may not be the one with the data on timing but may just allude to it. I will try to track down the article and see what it references. alteripse 18:14, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

--PartTimeParent responds... general comment... yes it raises sensitive issues, but issues of published fact. Obviously cuckolding is a result of adultery, and so it raises sensitive issues for some people. But that is not to say that we should censor the facts of it's existence.
 * 1) magnitude; the detail of the magnitude is not yet known. But it is clear that younger a child is denied it's natural father the greater the degree of prematurity menarche. 9 months is an average of the samples in the studies.
 * 2) the effect of stepfathers is to cause premature puberty, so it is appropriate for it to be included briefly here. Agreed, it should also be referenced in puberty, cuckold  and precocious puberty articles. I added it to these at the same time, but it appears to have been edited-out already, with no reason given.
 * 3) I can email you a PDF of the journal article, if you wish. Send me a message to parttimeparent@yahoo.com.au

I spent time generating the articles yesterday to try to answer the above questions. Don't be offended-- I am not disagreeing with you about the encyclopedic value of mentioning the phenomenon, but it needed some context. Claiming that it was "edited out with no reason given" lowers your apparent reasonableness. It was moved for discussion and I took the trouble to respectfully notify you of the move and invite you to discuss and you are looking directly at the "reason given" on this page,-- most deletions are accompanied by much less around here. Your pain about this topic is obvious and I am sympathetic, but it is what needs to be removed from the entries here.

Let's keep the discussion in one place (here). Check back later today and I will post a proposed synopsis. OK? alteripse 11:35, 28 January 2006 (UTC)


 * PartTimeParent, all of us reading the same material is a good way to start the discussion. I will email you so you can send the PDF of the article.


 * The wording of the material you put in the articles may not be WP:NPOV. This is one of the key policies of WP. Review WP:NPOV, WP:RS, and WP:NOR, if you haven't already. Working together, we'll come up with something that fits into the articles. --FloNight 20:06, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I am going through about a dozen articles from the Ellis reference. The most comprehensive and recent is Ellis BJ 2004 in Psych Bull (full ref in life history theory, which I just wrote for background, as this research needs grounding and context). More to come. alteripse 02:59, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The Ellis paper is large. I have nearly finished synopsizing it. If you are curious, see User:Alteripse/pubertal acceleration but it isnt ready to be made into an article yet. Although I have about a dozen more papers on this topic, they are all referenced by this one and probably will be quick to review. alteripse 19:43, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

-- I have emailled the paper I have to FloNite and it appears that alteripse has located another journal article on the same topic. This is my first wikipedia addition :-) 05:10, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I have finished reviewing all of the extant literature I could find on this topic. About a dozen papers are synopsized on my userpage link above. Most of the content is a long and detailed summary of Ellis' 2004 review, which recapitulates his earlier papers in more detail. Take a look if you haven't seen it. I have started some additions to puberty and will do the same to this article. List the points you think are worth making if you wish. alteripse 05:17, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

% body fat
We need to think about the best way to present information about % of body fat. I changed the word normal to regular.

I'm going to read further on this topic. No doubt % of body fat modifies menarche and menopause. Is it the controlling factor? The introduction reads that way to me now. FloNight  talk  12:53, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

removal of: Signs of Menarche
I removed the following because it is not quite correct or helpful. Menarche is a single event of puberty-- the first menstrual bleeding. The bleeding is described in the paragraph immediately above. We can mention that, like all menses, it may be accompanied by cramping, but this article does not need a section entitled "signs of". Strictly speaking, other secondary sexual development is not a sign of menarche, but rather an independent part of puberty. alteripse 16:57, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

''The list of signs and symptoms mentioned in various sources for Menarche includes those listed below. Note that Menarche symptoms usually refers to various symptoms known to a patient, but the phrase Menarche signs may refer to those signs only noticable by a doctor:
 * Menstruation
 * Abdominal pain
 * Secondary sexual characteristics''

Category:Human reproduction
I propose removing this article from Category:Human reproduction. I have proposed narrowing the scope of that category at Category talk:Human reproduction. Please comment on the category talk page. Lyrl Talk C 15:03, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Father ralationship
what could a girl's relationship with her father possibly have to do with menarche? ∆ Algonquin  10:17, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
 * We had another contributor insert this repeatedly, so I investigated it. Results are currently at but the page is mainly just a literature synopsis and I dont promise to maintain it. Several theoretical explanations are offered. alteripse 11:34, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Even though I wouldn't readily vouch for that, there are incredible psychological influences on developmental growth, more evidently with humans (at least as far as I know). Look for Phillip Zimbardo's "discovering psychology", there's a episode where they show that children that are somewhat deprived of physical touch have extremely hindered growth. More impressively, when these children are treated more warmly, with hugs and all, they "speed up" and catch up peers on their own ages. Possibly something similar may go on with menarche. A somewhat related possibility could have to do with theories that the whole cultural context also affects the menarche onset. Some people speculate that a more "sexualized" culture may trigger the puberty somewhat earlier on pre-adolescents. Maybe a closer relationship with the father delays that insofar as the father is likely to avoid exposing his daughter to the sexual aspects of the culture. I don't know to which extent this is supported by scientific work, however, and what I've put here is not much more than merely educated free association and speculation, the article has to be adequately sourced, I agree. --Extremophile (talk) 19:10, 13 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Kanazawa, Satoshi. 2001.  “Why Father Absence Might Precipitate Early Menarche:  The Role of Polygyny.”  Evolution and Human Behavior.  22:  329-334. - haven't read it though; the title does not say it "does", so it may be highly speculative, maybe not only the "why", but also the "what" supposedly happens. --Extremophile (talk) 18:49, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Way too vague. You just read what article, saw what reasons? alteripse (talk) 02:57, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Why does the article specify the "biological" father? If there is such an effect, would not an adoptive father induce it? If not, why not? Rammer (talk) 15:23, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Semenarche
Doesn't the male version of this event, sometimes called the semenarche, deserve an article? 2007 Aug 15


 * See spermarche. It's not exactly an analogous idea.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:33, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

World Average
Can we have the world average, rather than that of the US or iceland? Faro0485 (talk) 00:17, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

And do you want that adjusted for optimal nutrition, optimal rearing environment, and freedom from disease and environmental agents that might hasten or retard it? alteripse (talk) 21:43, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Culture and Rights of Passage Section
Hello, my name is Shelby and I currently working on a Wikipedia project for a class through my University. The course aims to improve knowledge on youth globally. The subject of youth is far reaching and the focus could be individuals ranging from early childhood, to those of the emerging adulthood phenomena some of whom can be in their early thirties. I think that one of the most important aspects of youth is a rites of passage practice, as it will signify to the youth and their community a change in status. Menarche is such a passage, as globally it had been the most predominant way to proclaim a young girl as a young woman. I am glad to see that this has already been considered in this article and a culture section has already been included. However I would like to make some changes to it. I would like to start with changing the layout and making it into a paragraph structure, rather than one of lists. I also have found resources containing information, that I think the section will benefit from. My early remodeling of the format can be seen in my sandbox. It is in the very early stages and little to none new information has been added, but feedback is most welcome. Please let me know what you think about this proposal. Shelby.Hill-Killerlain (talk) 13:47, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Here is the actual link to your sandbox. Your planned changes to the article are fine. And Wikipedia prefers prose over bullet-point format, so your wanting to change the text away from bullet-point format is a definite plus. Looking at your sandbox, however, I notice that you do some inappropriate capitalizing. The words menarche and menstruation, for example, should only be capitalized if they are used as the first word of a sentence or if they are a part of an official title. And per Manual of Style, you need to make sure that headings you add are not inappropriately capitalized. For example, for the "Celebratory Ceremonies" heading, currently seen in your sandbox, the "Ceremonies" part should be in lowercase. Additionally, per Manual of Style, though you have not yet formatted anything that contrasts this guideline, "Headings should not refer redundantly to the subject of the article, or to higher-level headings, unless doing so is shorter or clearer. (Early life is preferable to His early life when his refers to the subject of the article; headings can be assumed to be about the subject unless otherwise indicated.)" I also see headings for very short text in your sandbox, though it may be that you simply have not gotten around to filling those sections out. Manual of Style/Layout, "The number of single-sentence paragraphs should be minimized, since they can inhibit the flow of the text; by the same token, paragraphs that exceed a certain length become hard to read. Short paragraphs and single sentences generally do not warrant their own subheading." I'm glad that you are using WP:REFPUNCT (punctuation before, not after, references); a lot of the students who come here to expand or create an article for a class assignment don't use WP:REFPUNCT. The only other advice I have to give to you at this time is to avoid WP:WHITE SPACES (one or more extra white gaps between a section). Flyer22 (talk) 15:22, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I saw that you finally got around to expanding the section; I tweaked it. Flyer22 (talk) 03:58, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Estimations for Asian Populations
A particular point of interest of mine when I discovered this article was the "later age of onset" mentioned for Asian populations. However, following mention of such, I was somewhat shocked to find the subject almost entirely dropped. Specifically, I would have very much liked to see examples from the Far East, such as Japan, China, and the Russian Far East. I think this would be very beneficial to the article. 98.67.171.10 (talk) 21:16, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The worldwide average age of menarche is very difficult to estimate accurately, and it varies significantly by geographical region, race, ethnicity and other characteristics. Various estimates have placed it at 13. Some estimates suggest that the median age of menarche worldwide is 14, and that there is a later age of onset in Asian populations compared to the West. The average age of menarche is about 12.5 years in the United States, 12.72 in Canada, 12.9 in the UK and 13.06 ± 0.10 years in Iceland. A study on girls in Istanbul, Turkey, found the median age at menarche to be 12.74 years.

Menopause
If anyone who works on this article would care to take the time to look over the corresponding article Menopause, that would be really great -- that article gets a major amount of traffic from the reading public, but usually sees hardly any editors helping to improve it. Many thanks, Invertzoo (talk) 15:32, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Lead-image request
I have no strong feeling over what image to include...maybe a histogram of age at which it occurs, or even if there is an article-series navbox about human development that has an icon/logo? Tools like WP:POPUPS use "the first image in the article" in their thumbnail representing the article, and the current one is of pink blobs with dark spots. Not a bad image, but to someone who doesn't know that this is a rice dish celebrating the event, it looks like a crude representation of something related to menstruation. DMacks (talk) 22:34, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Secular Trend
I just edited the Secular variation page to mention the secular trend that has been observed, in which menses starts earlier and earlier (younger and younger) as time goes on (roughly 4 months younger per decade), however am not sure if there's a good way to work that into this article. My initial thought was to add it somewhere around the second paragraph of the intro, "The average age of menarche has declined over the last century, but the magnitude of the decline and the factors responsible remain subjects of contention." but I can't find a way to add it without making things sound disjunct. If anyone can find a way to add that in somewhere on this page, please do. Bush6984 (talk) 22:57, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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Infobox
I've removed the template:infobox medical condition and chosen to replace it with template:infobox medical condition (new), but instead add the Human growth and development sidebar. The article speaks little of either early or delayed puberty - and where it does has the relevant wikilinks. It seemed unfair to label a normal part of female development a medical 'condition' (cf. pubarche). Little pob (talk) 17:40, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

Foundations II Team 8b
Goals: UPDATE: After going doing more research on this topic, it may make sense to create a new section that focuses on the association of age at menarche and certain conditions (ie. insulin resistance and cardiovascular resistance).
 * 1) Add information regarding the association of age at menarche and cardiovascular disease.
 * 2) Early age at menarche is a risk factor for insulin resistance with a recent systematic review.

Mquindoy (talk) 22:06, 1 August 2019 (UTC)


 * I encourage you to expand your ambitions a bit. Health policy (talk) 04:49, 31 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Mquindoy, I appreciate you using WP:MEDRS-compliant sourcing. Thanks for the systematic review additions. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:16, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Group 8a Peer Review, Terry
1. Does the draft submission reflect a neutral point of view? Yes, the edits are free of biased language and reflect a very neutral point of view. Each edit is clearly cited as well to display the neutral point of view. 2. Has the group achieved its overall goals for improvement? In general, the group did achieve its goals. Some improvements can be made in reference to their edit on the association of age at menarche and cardiovascular disease. It was helpful that they cited the association but did not go into further detail. '''3. Are the points included verifiable with cited secondary sources that are freely available? If not, specify…''' Yes, all new edits have citations from secondary sources such as systematic reviews or meta-analyses. Terry.vo (talk) 21:09, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Foundations II Group 8a Peer Review, Zachary
Do the group’s edits substantially improve the article as described in the Wikipedia peer review “Guiding framework”? Yes, the group's edits improve the article. They have fixed inaccurate information and added important information with appropriate sources.

2.Has the group achieved its overall goals for improvement? Yes, the group addressed all of their goals.

3. Are the edits formatted consistent with Wikipedia’s manual of style? If not, specify… Yes, the formatting of the edits are consistent with Wikipedia's manual of style.

Zaccarlson (talk) 16:54, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Foundations II Group 8a Peer Review
1. Do the group’s edits substantially improve the article as described in the Wikipedia peer review “Guiding framework”?

Yes, the edit on menarche and insulin resistance is an important edit that offers improved explanation of risk factors in chronic illness.

2. Has the group achieved its overall goals for improvement?

Yes, they achieved their goals successfully.

3. Does the draft submission reflect a neutral point of view? If not, specify…

Yes, the tone is neutral and offers non-biased information from a systematic review.

Nzargham (talk) 17:11, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

The group added in an important reference for a piece of information linking menarche to insulin resistance. They also looked into studies referencing the median age for menarche. Overall, the goals were met, although it'd be nice to see more on the association between menarche and CVD. Relevant secondary sources were listed. 128.218.43.154 (talk) 17:12, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Foundations II: 8A Peer Review
The group added in an important reference for a piece of information linking menarche to insulin resistance. They also looked into studies referencing the median age for menarche. Overall, the goals were met, although it'd be nice to see more on the association between menarche and CVD. Relevant secondary sources were listed. Jiangyad (talk) 17:16, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

What is wrong with the Canadian study?
The article about Canadian menarche is marked as "better source needed", and also as a primary source. Why? It is based on numbers obtained from a national survey and is published in a well established peer reviewed magazine by a team of Canadian scientists from York University in Ontario. פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 10:08, 7 July 2022 (UTC)


 * It's biomedical information (specifically population data), which means that WP:MEDRS applies. Little pob (talk) 10:57, 7 July 2022 (UTC)


 * No. It is a Canadian study, BASED on the biomedical information. Read it please. That cannot be considered a primary source.


 * The Turkish data (ref pmid21669888) is not from a scholarly institute, but was chosen to be published in "Pediatrics" journal. What is the problem with that reference?
 * פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 13:28, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I didn't tag the references, and I'm not comfortable answering on behalf of the person who did. I'll drop a note at WP:MED to see if anyone with more experience can come and reply to your concerns. Little pob (talk) 14:22, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @Pashute, it's 12 years old (five or less would be preferable) and it's a primary source (a secondary source would be preferable). WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:57, 7 July 2022 (UTC)