Talk:Menno Simons

Removal of word 'Netherlands'
User 62.104.222.66 removed the word "Netherlands" from this sentence - "Menno Simons (1496-1561) was an Anabaptist religious leader from Friesland, Netherlands" - with the comment that Friesland is larger than the Netherlands. I am no expert on Friesland or the Netherlands (so would like some comments and opinions), but I do believe that it is correct that the area in which Menno Simons was born was in Friesland and was in the Netherlands. Maybe there's a better way to form the sentence if this information is correct (which I believe it is). Thanks. - Rlvaughn 02:51, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * Friesland is much larger as the Netherlands. The Frisian nation and culture does not depend on today's national states which were back then non-existant. Like Kurds live in Iraq, in Turkey, ...


 * I believe, all things considered, that when people speak of Friesland where Menno was born, it is probably a province in the Netherlands that they mean, and not the entire Friesland region from Netherlands to Denmark (though it may be technically incorrect)?? Are the Low Countries and Friesland (region) equivalent? I'm confused. - Rlvaughn 01:02, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * It's fairly complicated matter. And I am certainly no expert on it. That said, I do know the basics. The low lands (and especially Friesland) have a turbulent history and have seen many changes in its legal states over the last 500+yrs. During the time Simons was born Friesland was a lordship (well, kinda..) and part of the Seventeen Provinces. The Seventeen Provinces were a personal union comparable to the current Commonwealth Realm; all member states being fairly independent but sharing a common head of state. The Seventeen Provinces covered lands currently known as Belgium, Luxembourg, The Netherlands and parts of north-France and north-west Germany. When Simons died (in north-west germany) the situation already changed somewhat. I guess you can find more on this on wikipedia ;-). Foundations for the Netherlands only came years after Simons died with the formation of the Union of Utrecht. Frisia as a region is much different as Friesland (which outlines are still fairly the same as in 1496). The region of Frisia covers the northsea coastal zones from the Netherlands across Germany to Denmark. Arriving at my point here (sig, loads of text for a small correction, wonder if anyone ever reads this, at least I'm having fun ;-)). Using Dutch / The Netherlands here is factual wrong as neither term could be applied to Friesland at that time. Anyway, I changed "Dutch" to "Friesland (today part of The Netherlands)". --Pepijn Koster 01:24, 28 November 2005 (UTC)


 * In 1496, Friesland was only the name of a region, which combined several small states. Witmarsum was part of one of the largest of these states, Westergo. The other large state was Oostergo. The inhabitants of Westergo and Oostergo traditionally hated eachothers guts. Inhabitants of Westergo and Oostergo frequently waged wars against and amongst eachother which were regulated in typically rules in feuds. 1496 was two years before the Landsknecht soldiers forced the Frisians to submit to the rule of the governor of the Netherlands, the duke of Saxony-Meissen. Westergo was supposedly independent in 1496 but was actually haunted by German landsknecht soldiers.--Daanschr 13:58, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

modern-day mennonites
I met a Mennonite on a bus once (from L.A. to San Francisco, for a demonstration). I also know of Mennonites active in political activism in the United States, regarding issues of peace and human rights, and I believe they are active in other countries too (Latin America?). This article only goes up through Menno's death. I would very much like to see more of it. The article on the German language reference a German dialect spoken by Mennonite communities in North America. This is a very interesting development. I hope someone adds to this. glasperlenspiel 00:11, Jun 16, 2004 (UTC)


 * There are a number of articles on the Mennonites and specific groups of Mennonites. For example - Old Order Mennonites. Perhaps you can find what you need in some of those articles. - Rlvaughn 01:02, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

hmmm ??? two versions
25 years after his renunciation of Catholicism, Menno passed away on January 31, 1561 at Wüstenfelde, Schleswig-Holstein, and was buried in his garden. ....

He died 1561 near the city of Bad Oldesloe in northern Germany.


 * I looked back at the history of the article, and found this "second death" added in a revision of 6 Sep 2004 by Ameins. According to the Mennonite Encyclopedia, Menno died at Wüstenfelde on 31 January 1561.

hmm...
This page seems kinda biased, but I'm not sure how to explain that. It's told in a storybook type way, and I just don't know about the objectivity of it all. Thoughts?


 * Can you give us some specifics concerning objectivity to look at other than just the style? Thanks. - Rlvaughn 04:58, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

I am a different 'hmm..' and I too see bias here. I see a positive-POV and much too general fable written by Mennonites for Mennonites about Menno. Several crebible accounts state that Menno was a drinker, womanizer and gambler as a young man. To include such facts here would humanize him and add crebility to this article. Also, I see few specific statements here about Menno's main ideas (of which there are books written in his own words to pull from.) As these ideas no doubt did and do influence all Menno-nites we need to see them here. Last I would like to see the specific 'significant' differences 'before Menno', 'under Menno' and 'after Menno' as I would any other influential figure. Please bring balance and completeness here for non-Mennonite readers. Anacapa 04:41, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, why no discussion of Munster? One of the major things that shaped his life, amd caused him to embrace and enforce pacifism among the Mennonites. It was also one of the incidents which shaped the outside perception of him, from Luther especially. It is ironic that he looked up to Luther, and then Lutherans would kill his disciples. Benkenobi18 20:23, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

POV check
This article panders to positive point of view about Menno Simons. It seems to be written for Mennonites by Mennonites. There is no mention of Menno Simons controversial stands on shunning, or 'marital avoidance' (also known as spousal shunning) which are clearly outlined in his writings and also shown in many histories of the Mennonites.

It is also written in a story book style that seems more like a celebratory tome than a balanced NPOV description of who Menno Simons was and how he influenced the people who bear his name. In my opinion it needs to be reviewed by editors who have no conflict of interests and who can help us develop an encyclopedia entry rather than another propaganda piece for Mennonites who see Menno Simons as a great leader. For those non-Mennnonite editors who care to read Menno's writings themselves it is easily possible to see that he was no nice guy when it came to church punishments as he himself stated how harsh they were. However all the quotes we see in this article to falsely paint Menno as such a nice guy are nauseating to me...one who has first-hand experience of Mennonite shunning.

I also believe this article needs to make more mention of Menno's core ideologies as they have had a profound effect on his followers down through the centuries. We need to know who Menno was here rather than just bio facts. We also need to know how Menno became so revered that his people still bear his name today. This article seems little more than rote repetition of what Menno did rather than who he was. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.111.96.53 (talk) 17:56, 25 October 2006


 * New Comment
 * Actually this looks like something written for the Gospel Herald, a publication by Mennonites for Mennonites, biased and incorrect. Exactly like the Mennonite religion, false. Evidently Mennonites are fond of lies and errors which is why they follow a faith full of them. Menno Simons, who was a Catholic Priest (not a very good one) broke away from a church founded by Jesus Christ to start a church founded by Menno Simons. In doing this he becomes his own Christ. Peter was the leader of the early church in Rome, a fact that Mennonites like to shun, Peter was the first Bishop of Rome and hence the Pope. A fact Mennonites are often oblivious of, but then again, they follow a doctrine of simplicity, it's just unfortunate that this applies to the depth of their thought. This article does needs to be corrected as well as their religion. Notice the complete fear they have of adding a link to the Munster Rebellion, a bloody disgusting murder festival brought to you courtesy of the anabaptists. Seems Mennonites are to fearful to acknowledge the truth of their bloody past which of course the leader also had 16 wives. Do you see something wrong with the thoughts of these people? Menno Simons wanted to isolate himself from that event by preaching the doctrine of pacifism. My parents were Amish then Mennonites. They knew nothing more than the Mennonite faith, which is prerequisite for being a faithful Mennonite because any application of thought and reason brings to light how false and misleading this faith really is. Think of that Mennonites, your church was founded by a man, Menno Simons. You follow the doctrine of fallen man. All Catholics enjoy the fact that their church was founded by Jesus Christ. Timothyschrock (talk) 10:57, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

I think the Page is perfect
As a former mennonite who has studied the denomination, attended both a mennonite high school and College (Pacific College), and lived in the colonies in Paraguay, (not to mention a receiver of that notorious tradition of 'shunning'), I have to say that this article is very well done. Check out the old paper encyclopedias like Brittania (if you can find one). The articles about other middle-tier religious leaders are similarly written; basic information, kept to under 10,000 words. I didn't find the article as propaganda, but basically informative. If you want more info, its easy to look at the bibliography for more thorough texts. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Side241 (talk • contribs) 05:34, 26 January 2007 (UTC).


 * Agree. The tag can be removed. ✤ JonHarder talk 21:57, 13 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Agree. The article may just need some in-text-citations. And how about an Infobox, would that be good? Apart from that I do not see why this article shouldn't be considered for a GA status. Baldrick90 13:30, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Naming convention: surname or patronym?
Apparently "Simons" is a patronym. Not sure that it's not his own name as was stated. It doesn't seem to follow the pattern for Dutch patronyms as there's no "son" or "zoon" so that doesn't seem to hold water. Until there's clarification the article should using the naming MOS on Wikipedia: use the surname rather than given name after it is first mentioned. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:20, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

"Apparently"? I'm confused by your first two sentences above (I could say I'm tied in knots by too many nots). Anyway, there's already clarification in the "Early life" section of this same article: "His father's name must have been Simon, Simons being a patronym; he had a brother named Pieter.[2]" The -s ending in Simons is genitive (Dutch and German don't use apostrophe like English for genitive -s ending), i.e. he is Simon's son, i.e. Simons is a patronym. There's more in the source given by footnote "[2]". JamesD&#39;Alexander (talk) 16:23, 6 July 2012 (UTC)JamesD'Alexander

In print, Encyclopaedia Britannica (15th edition on shelf here) files him under M, not S. I think that clinches it: Simons is not a surname. JamesD&#39;Alexander (talk) 16:46, 6 July 2012 (UTC)JamesD'Alexander


 * That seems like good material. Thanks. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:59, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Also, check out the Netherlands section in the patronym article you referred to at the top of this thread. It supports what I said about -s genitive; -son and -zoon are not the only possibilities. JamesD&#39;Alexander (talk) 21:17, 6 July 2012 (UTC)JamesD'Alexander

I'm new here, so please enlighten me as to the Wiki-protocol: Do *you* now undo your undoings of my edits, or do I?  JamesD&#39;Alexander (talk) 15:50, 9 July 2012 (UTC)JamesD'Alexander
 * You may do so based on this discussion. Apply it consistently though. Thanks. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:54, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

"Menno Simons rejected asceticism in terms of its traditional practices of social withdrawal, mortification, and self-denial. Historical theologian Richard Valantasis, however, has suggested that asceticism should not be defined as these physical practices but as a group of activities designed to reestablish social relations between the individual and the dominant social environment through a new subjectivity, different social relations, and an alternative symbolic universe. Simons' theology is ascetic by Valantasis's definition since it used these methods to restructure Anabaptists' relationship with 'worldly' society.[13]"

The viewpoint of the historian who has suggested that we redefine asceticism seems like a random distraction. No doubt there are dozens of new definitions. The Wikipedia of red herrings. 67.170.236.50 (talk) 14:06, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

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