Talk:Merchant Navy (United Kingdom)

Photo of "Engineering Officer Cadet"
The photo of the cadet uniform is a joke, no? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.153.62.198 (talk) 14:36, 20 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree. The photo information states This photo shows a cadet wearring eppaullette slides on a short sleeve shirt with a black tie and a cap, whilst not "wrong" this should be considered unusual, as whilst there are no "official" Merchant Navy uniform rules, many companies (shipping lines) use the Royal Navy's rules as a guideline. As such, either a black tie OR rank tabs (with the shirt collar open), NEVER both. Also in most companies cadets are not entitled to wear caps, and if they are not ones with a white cover unless in tropical dress (white shorts and socks). Personally, I never came across an "engineering officer cadet", at least, not at sea, but I could be wrong about that. Plus, the uniform detail as shown, even the author states is inaccurate. Joke entries are more insidious than spam, in a  way. Can someone look into this?  Absent corroborating information, I think it should be struck. JohnClarknew (talk) 21:38, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Apart from the article being terrible (where is the history of the merchant navy in all this?) The photo is probably all too accurate for modern day seafarers. There is no real merchant navy uniform as such, as different shipping companies had different rigs. When I went to sea in 1969 as a deck cadet with Athel Line I, or should I say my father, had to buy my uniform. This did include a cap with Athel Lines badge on the front, so cadets did wear caps with my company. The uniform was, in cooler climates; black doe-skin trousers and jacket with company brass buttons on the front and stripes of rank on the sleeves, white long sleeved shirt, black tie, black socks, black shoes, and cap. When things got a bit warmer we went into what in Athel Line was called "half and halves" but elsewhere in the Merchant Navy was more often called "Red Sea rig". This was black shoes, black socks, black trousers, white short sleeved shirt, open at the neck, with epaulettes, and cap. In the tropics we wore white shoes, white long socks, white shorts, white short sleeved shirt open at the neck with epaulettes, and cap. Some companies had dark blue uniform. The best materials for the uniform was barathea or gabardine not the doe-skin that my father bought. Yes there were engineering officer cadets. We used to have them when I worked for Blue Star Line in the late 1970s and early 1980s when qualified engineers started to become scarce from the UK shipyards. I am sure that someone can come up with a better photo of a merchant navy officer though. Welkinridge (talk) 18:56, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Personally I think the photo should be deleted, it's appalling. Maybe a photo of somebody who can tuck their shirt in properly, and someone who knows how to use an iron would be more appropriate. It's a joke to think that this photo is an acceptable demonstration. Xtrememachineuk (talk) 09:28, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

No need to be snobbish and offensive to some poor cadet. I have seen enough Cadets of lately, and I can confirm, the standard uniform, for all British companies is, black shoes, black trousers, white shirt (long or short sleeve), epilletes (with a single stripe, angled starboard to port on the persons shoulder) and a black tie, yes both at the same time. Anyway, other then on cruise liners is rare to see Engineers wearing uniform, as it's well known that a good or badly warn uniform does not make the best officer! Dosedmonkey (talk) 17:05, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Also just thinking about this wiki, Xtrememachineuk I believe your a 2nd Officer for Mearsk? Possible you could get a photo of a modern day officer in uniform? 86.142.145.89 (talk) 17:39, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

History of the MN
In addition, I have edited the history of the Merchant Navy somewhat, please leave feedback. However I might add that it is nowhere near extensive enough. Maybe the following subject areas would be relevant:
 * Formation of the Merchant Navy (i.e. the first use of the Red Ensign by Charles II in 1674)
 * Merchant Navy during the period of imperial expansion - East India Company and Slave trade could be included.
 * Merchant Navy during British Empire, and first steel and steam ships.
 * Merchant Navy during the First and Second World Wars.
 * The Merchant Navy during the period of imperial decline, and in modern times.

Any other suggestions? Xtrememachineuk (talk) 10:27, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Difficult to understand for laymen
The article currently does not provide an easy-to-understand explanation of what the British Merchant Navy is, that can be comprehended by a layman with no knowledge of seafaring. In particular the article mixes historical facts with modern-day facts interchangeably throughout. This is particularly confusing when I am trying to understand what the BMN is today.

I am a reasonably well-educated Midlander, and after attempting to read the article, I am still left with the following questions:


 * Is the British Merchant Navy a real organisation today or is it a term to describe something else or something historical no longer in use? If so, what, in laymans' terms?

Assuming it is a real organisation:


 * What forms the BMN? It is ships, or people, or both? Is there a formal procedure for joining? How would I know if the ship I was on was part of the BMN? How would I tell if my neighbour, who works on a boat, was a member of the BMN?


 * Why is it described as a Navy? Is it armed? Can it be called upon in some kind of reservist capacity like the Territorial Army?


 * What centrally controlled and commanded services can it provide? (I get the feeling from the article that member ships provide search and rescue if there are no dedicated emergency services nearby?)


 * From where and by whom is it centrally controlled and commanded?


 * Why does Britain need a merchant navy today?

Finally, the historical background should be consigned to a single (if large) section, clearly marked "History" or similar, so that laymen can clearly distinguish the historical from the present day. Andrew Oakley (talk) 10:00, 22 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Completely agree with this, historical merchant navy information should be at the end, its also got a "past and present" section, as well as a history section, which surely already covers the present. Really it needs a laymans introduction, technical explination like it already has, merchant navy today, and then finally historical merchant navy. Dosedmonkey (talk) 17:21, 8 July 2009 (UTC)


 * JFYI, the Merchant Navy is not an organisation but rather a collective term for the British merchant shipping fleet as a whole. In time of war this fleet could/would come under government control - see STUFT - and so ensure the continued supply of essential commodities vital to the survival of the UK. This was most noticeable in the Atlantic U-boat campaign of World War I and Battle of the Atlantic, and to as late as the 1982 Falklands War.


 * UK merchant seamen were for the most part civilians and when in port during wartime could be mistaken for 'shirkers' (people avoiding fighting for their country) because they were not in any of the UK armed services and so the title 'Merchant Navy' was accorded because many merchant seaman had actually given their lives for the country, and also because many had been involved in the actual shooting war when their ships were attacked by the enemy. Some Merchant Navy men had by 1945 survived being torpedoed-and-sunk three times, on three different ships.

Notable people
I removed Samuel Plimsol from the notable people section. While he was most definately important with regard to his political work in bringing in legislation to control the overloading of ships, he was never a merchant seaman and his inclusion under the heading of 'A number of notable Merchant Navy personnel' can only be described as wrong. 86.112.61.202 (talk) 21:42, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

The actual size of the British Merchant Fleet
The problem with 'official' facts is that they too often fail to recognise actual facts. What the article doesn’t discuss is just what happened to a fleet that only fifty years ago represented more than half of the worlds merchant shipping? With the onset of draconian control freakism and taxation by governments, that trading community who had evolved from buccaneers and pirates found new ways of escaping government control; I refer especially to that lot who took India and a lot more, fighting off the French and other navies with their own private army armed merchantmen. The British East India Company has to be the most remarkable private corporation of all time, by a huge margin. Those people evolved into the bankers and world traders who still dominate the world today, even being led by the same families. One could hardly make it up! What they did was to set up overseas companies who control other overseas companies who control other overseas companies who are all beyond the control of mere governments and pen pushing, cap doffing to any establishment auditors. Ever wonder how basket case economies such as Liberia, Panama and a few other similar sovereign states can operate the biggest merchant fleets in the world. If you can't work that one out within the context of this article then we can presume that Orwellian double speak really has taken over from rational process. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.26.179.84 (talk) 13:26, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Want to join merchant navy.
I am 22 years old, want to join. Please segest me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.91.213.96 (talk) 10:45, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Composition of Crew
Up until the about the 1990's the officers were almost, but not all, exclusively UK residents. The rest of the crew could be recruited from anywhere although an entire crew was usually recruited from a single port, including UK crews. For some reason Carpenters were recruited separately and if they weren't from the UK they were often Chinese even if the rest of the crew were African or Indian.

The ships offers were: the Captain or Master, who was in command and responsible for the successful completion of the voyage, the Chief Officer of Mate ran the deck crew and was in charge of the loading and discharge of the cargo, the Second Officer or Second Mate was responsible for the navigation of the ship and the Third Officer or Third Mate was the safety officer. The Chief Engineer was in overall charge of the ship's machinery. The Second Engineer ran the engine room and the engine crew. In a motor (i.e. Diesel) ship the Third Engineer was responsible for the main engine, the Fourth Engineer was in charge of the generators. The junior engineers assisted the others in their rôles. In steam ships these duties would be allocated differently. The electricians were part of the engine department and reported to the Second Engineer. The Radio Officer was responsible for radio communications and the maintenance the electronic navigation devices and reported directly to the Captain; the Radio Officer also sometimes carried out administrative tasks on behalf of the Captain. The Chief Steward ran the catering department and was usually a UK resident like the rest of the officers however if a Chinese crew was carried the Chief Steward would normally be Chinese. This was the basic structure but there were many variations and additions, including training positions.

The deck crew was run by the Bosun although the Carpenter was considered the senior member of the deck crew, both reported directly to the Chief Officer/Mate. Below the bosun was the Deck Storekeeper sometimes known as the Lamp Trimmer, and maybe a Bosun's Mate and then the rest of the deck crew the number of which varied depending on the size of ship and the work required. If Quartermasters (men who steered the ship) were carried they were usually directed in their duties by the Second Officer/Second Mate. The engine room crew were run by the Engine Room Storekeeper or, on a tanker, the Pumpman, and were commonly divided into firemen who assisted in the boiler room and greasers who worked in the engine room. One of the greasers may have been appointed Electrician's Mate. Under the Chief Steward was a Chief Cook, who ran the galley and was assisted by the galley staff, and the officer's stewards who were sometimes led by a Second Steward.

Crews recruited from the Indian Sub-Continent included Goanese cooks and stewards because they were prepared to handle food eaten by the UK officers. Indian crews had separate cooks for the deck crew and for the engine crew, although by the 1970's it was becoming common just to have a chief crew cook and a second crew cook.

Non UK crews were usually drawn from areas in which the ship traded, so far east trading ships had either Singapore or Hong Kong crews, banana boats had West Indian crews, ships trading to West and Southern Africa had African crews and ships trading to the Indian Ocean (including East Africa) had crews from the Indian Sub-Continent. UK crews were commonly used on ships trading across the North Atlantic, to South America and to Australia and New Zealand.

Tramp ships, which included tankers, would recruit crews from anywhere although each company usually only recruited crews from a single country.

While vestiges of this system remain British ships can now have captains, officers and crews from anywhere in the world on condition that they have internationally recognised qualifications so crews are now far more multi national. Although the basic management structure is still in place Radio Officers have been replaced by Electronic Technical Officers who deal with the vast array of electronic equipment now carried and are usually part of the Engine Room, though now renamed Technical Department. Chief Stewards and Carpenters have all but been phased out, the Chief Cook now heading the Catering Department and Carpenters no longer required on most ships. The deck and engine crews have also been merged and although still run by a Bosun the same crew work on deck and assist in the Engine Room when required. The pumpman on a tanker, who is responsible for much of the cargo care equipment and cargo pumps, is now part of the Deck Department and reports to the Chief Officer/Mate.Simon JD (talk) 14:11, 20 March 2016 (UTC)


 * OK, so why is the sensible content in Talk and the rubbish in the main page?137.205.183.109 (talk) 16:51, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Because of this endorsement I have now pasted this in the main page!Simon JD (talk) 13:30, 30 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Most of the 'Chinese' were actually ethnic Chinese from the British colonies of Hong Kong, Malaya, and Singapore. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.173.127 (talk) 10:16, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

External links modified
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Discipline
I suggest, if the knowledge is available, something might be said about discipline in the MN. I gather that these seafarers could in time of war come under overall military command, and thus potentially suffer military punishment, but what about in time of peace? I'm really thinking of actor Gareth Hunt, who according to an entirely accepted account served from his teens to his early twenties in the MN, then "jumped ship in New Zealand and worked in a car plant for a year before he was caught and served three months in a military prison". This was not in time of war. Harfarhs (talk) 11:18, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Riddled with falsehoods
The reaccuring claim that George V into Rudy end the merchant navy medal and the title of merchant navy is completely baseless 82.11.194.227 (talk) 23:04, 7 June 2023 (UTC)