Talk:Merchant Navy (United Kingdom)/Archive 1

This archive
This archive was created as per How to archive a talk page. With the exception of grouping some comments together and making slight modifications to section headers, I believe it's a faithful representation of the state of the prior talk page. Haus42 13:24, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Merge with merchant marine
Since there is clearly a good degree of overlap between "Merchant Marine" and "Merchant Navy," it might better serve the readers if the two pages were merged into one, with sub-sections dealing with each specific topic, as has been previously suggested on the "Merchant Marine" talk page.

Please see my comments on the Merchant marine talk page. Pesco 15:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Merging articles?
"Since there is clearly a good degree of overlap between "Merchant Marine" and "Merchant Navy,""

There is a good deal of overlap but the two terms have distinct meanings. Go to North America and they don't recognise Merchant Navy, in the UK no-one mentions Merchant Marine - at least they didn't when I was in the British Merchant Navy - a while back.

I also have problems with the whole of this page. After fifteen years in the Merchant Navy (and explaining that term every time to US people that was what they called the Merchant Marine)I have never come across Malaysian crews. The explanations of the crews from the Indian sub-continent are 'iffy'and the mixture of nationalities of crews is bizarre.

The description of 'purser' (here and elsewhere) is odd (I was one)and one link to one small shipping line in the Merchant Navy entry seems inadequate. And yes, I should amend it... when I have time.

Cannonmc 14:56, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Merged
As nothing new was happening, I have merged the two articles, which meant some rewriting. Now, the subject is dealt with in 2 articles instead of three, that is, US Merchant Marine, and this one, Merchant Navy. Merchant Marine should be eliminated. Hopes this meets with approval. Would appreciate an admin checking out syntax to clean up what's there now. JohnClarknew 08:35, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Some comments

 * Hey Pesco, I linked your comment above to more easily find the talk page, note that "marine" is lower case, so there's some confusion to actually find where the discussion is going on. JohnClarknew 18:04, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Merge. The two articles are really about the same thing. "Merchant marine" is by far the more common term, in my experience. Lou Sander 14:20, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Please all posts to Merchant marine Talk page JohnClarknew 11:23, 14 November 2006 (UTC)


 * See Talk:United States Merchant Marine for additional discussion.

Usage
I would suggest that the term Merchant Navy is that normally used in the UK to refer to commercial shipping, and that the term Merchant Marine is that used in the United States to refer to commercial shipping. I think that both usages should be respected and that two pages may therefore exist in parallel in the Wiki with minor differences owing to their origins on opposite sides of the Atlantic.

I would further argue the case for a UK Merchant Navy page owing to the great loss of life suffered by British sailors during both World Wars, being approximately twelve thousand deaths in WWI and double that in WWII. Secondly being an island nation the UK has always attached great importance the carriage of goods by sea, both for export and import.

Paul Bird

However you do it allow the content of "merchant marine" to appear when "merchant marine" is a searched for.
I have grown up in the USA, am 67, and have never heard the terms "merchant navy." I would have not thought to search for that term, or for "merchant shipping." - Tom Whitney

Merge, and USMM kept separate
MERGE (MN and Mm) and keep USMM as separate entry. Changed my mind a few times, but now I think that one entry with subsections would be too long, and that Merchant marine should be merged into Merchant Navy under the Merchant Navy heading. And surviving entry should simply be clearly cross-linked with United States Merchant Marine. It is clear that the practice of seafaring is everywhere much the same, but where major differences arise is (a) in war, (b) political history, and (c) references and external links (Unions etc.) will be different. To have one big entry with subsections would become very confusing to the reader. My humble opinion, of course. JohnClarknew 17:57, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd support this. Merge the articles, refactor and globalise terminology and national POV, as a discussion of the concept in general, and then split out sub-articles on any individual merchant navies/marines that have enough information to merit that.  Alai 13:02, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Further thoughts
The above sentiments are certainly accurate, but the problem is that unlike the US Merchant Marine, the Merchant Navy is not a definite organisation as such. The Merchant Navy could be said to be the ships on the British shipping registy, but this would not include British seafarers who sail "foreign flag", but who when you ask what they do, "I'm in the Merchant Navy". I am one of these people so this is particularly important to me. I'm going to start work on a series of smaller articles relating to the MN, such as rank structure, life onboard ship and the different departments onboard. I am an Engineer Cadet and less knowledgable about the Catering department for example, so if you know more than me get in touch. [|pammybhoy]


 * Is the US Merchant Marine a definite entity at times other than war? If not it is analogous to the UK Merchant Navy, or any other nations' Merchant Navy/Merchant Marine, in that it is also centrally administered in times of war. At other times it is just nationally flagged Merchant Shipping.


 * Hakluyt bean 14:56, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

The Term Merchant Navy
Isn't the UK the only country to have a 'Merchant Navy' rather than a merchant marine or fleet of merchant ships under some other designation? I seem to remember British merchant ships being granted the right to call themselves a navy by the king in the early 20th century. 195.92.43.117 16:30, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I thought it was more of a Commonwealth thing.  Merchant Marine though  seems to be just U.S. usage (self-description and description of others). I was surprised to see that Canada eg uses Merchant Navy.  The preference for the term Merchant Marine is maybe a bit unbalanced (?)
 * Hakluyt bean 15:30, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

nov 10 edit
I removed it because (1) it was wholesale violation of various wikipedia policies (npov, etc) and (2) even if appropriate for wikipedia, should have been put in United States Merchant Marine until such time as the various articles are consolidated (or not).

Master or Captain
In this article, does Master refer to Master-at-arms? Disambiguation is needed. --Knulclunk 15:18, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually it is Master Mariner --- Safemariner 01:06, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! -- --Knulclunk 04:27, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

military?
Are merchant marines typically considered a branch of the military during times of war? and as such would their wounded/killed crews be considered military casualties? I vrought this up on the WWII Casualties page and wondered if anyone here might have info about it.70.49.20.43 23:03, 3 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes. The merchant marine officers and seamen, in times of war, can be requested by their country to pilot troop carriers, or merchant vessels that are helping in the war effort, thus freeing the naval officers for combat missions and such. User: Yosy August 23, 2006