Talk:Merchant Taylors' School, Northwood

Public Schools Act
Merchant Taylors' School was not in fact included in the Public Schools Act of 1868. The school did not meet the definition of a public school. Therefore the sentence in the article is incorrect. It even says so in the article cited! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.98.129.169 (talk) 01:12, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Beginnings
This is a long article, so it has taken me a long time to wikify it. It still needs work doing: Thryduulf 21:50, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Many of the links need checking and (probably) disambigutating.
 * The history sub-sections may need reorganising, as they're just where it seemed apropriate as I was reading/skimming through, and thus are quite arbitrary in places. The time periods are nowhere near equal either.

Almost the entire page has been ripped directly from the school website - please check for copyright :-)

Can i just add that the page is bias come someone flag it? it offers no rational view —Preceding unsigned comment added by Willspy2 (talk • contribs) 09:58, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Questionable OMT's
I have just removed the following two entries from the list of OMT's. The first has just gone in, and looks very like a joke to me. The second has been in for some weeks, but I can't find any reference to him via Google, so I am suspicious.

ColinFine 22:25, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Michael William Burrow, Heroin trafficker and Jesus lookalike
 * Jake Vaughan Turner, entrepreneur and philanthropist

Disambiguation
I'm not sure that I agree with the disambiguation. When one refers to 'Merchant Taylors' School' it is assumed that you are talking about Northwood unless one specifies the other schools. This is not just a matter of geography and which is local to you, as it might be with the Haberdashers schools, but in all works on the history of education, Merchant Taylors' always assumes Northwood. Since the school does not call itself by the disambiguated name I have renamed the disambiguation 'Merchant Taylors' Schools' so that it accurately lists the appropriate schools.

(this above was unsigned)

My reply: I am not sure that your comment that people assume that "Merchant Taylors' School" refers to the Northwood school unless specified otherwise is always true; I think it is class and geography based. For example do Americans really immediately think of the school in Northwood?? I have just checked the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography to see how they handled this and I found they use the formula "Merchant Taylors' School, London" to avoid any possible misunderstanding. Given that Wikipedia is aimed at people from across the globe who would not use this term the way some British people do, I feel it is safer to state which school is meant where possible.

Molybdomancer 11:38, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

The correct attribution for clarity is Merchant Taylors' School, simply because it was officially founded by the Merchant Taylors' company as such,as their showpiece School, rather than by a philanthropic individual who happened to be a member of the Company, (as was the case, e.g.,with Sir Stephen Jenyns and Wolverhampton Grammar School). To specify either London or Northwood limits the School to a particular incarnation in a particular time period, whereas the over-riding ethos, culture and educational practices of the School are an evolving continuum, whether the School was sited in Suffolk Lane, Charterhouse Square, or Moor Park (Northwood). cf. Charterhouse, which is always referred to as Charterhouse, not as Charterhouse, Godalming or Charterhouse, London. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.85.20.157 (talk) 11:21, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

I realise these comments are very old but just to add that I went to Merchant Taylor’s School, Crosby, and only became dimly aware that there was another school of the same name down south several years into my incarceration, sorry, education there. The school I was at referred to itself as Merchant Taylors’ School and people in Merseyside would absolutely assume that the Crosby boys’ school (or the girls’ school up the road) was being referred to if that name was used.

It’s absolutely a matter of geography and which is local to you, even though the northern school may be the new kid on the block having been founded in 1620 rather than 1561. Liberaljon (talk) 21:01, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

Jadeja
I have just reverted the page to remove 'Mitulsinh Jadeja' from the list of OMT's. This is the third time this name has been added in the last month, by three different IP addresses all beginning 86 (not diagnostic, I know). Google finds only two entries for the name: this one, and http://static.namesdatabase.com/schools/UKMI/Northwood/MerchantTaylorsSchool.html, which lists him under 'class of 2000'.

Each time the name has been wikilinked only to Jadeja, which is an article about the Indian clan of that name. One of the three IP addresses also edited that article.

I feel reasonably sure that Mitulsinh Jadeja is a non-notable person, at or recently left MTS, who keeps adding himself to the list. ColinFine 23:23, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Jadeja attended the School around the turn of the Millennium. His exact dates may be found in the Salvete/Valete sections of the School magazine, The Taylorian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.85.20.157 (talk) 11:14, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Begun Work
I've begun the long slog of adding references and tidying this article up (changing it from reading word for word as the one on the school's site). If anyone wants to help, feel free.... michael  Curtis talk+contributions 21:49, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Old Merchant Taylors (OMTs)
Unfortunately nopne of these were sourced using reliable sources and we must use reliable sources, especially for living people, please source and return, SqueakBox 16:41, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair Point, but I think the list (which I know is pretty accurate ayway) should be copied here as a guide for those whoi need to find references:


 * That's fine, I have removed some people from my old school even though I sat in the same class with them and the only reason I am choosing this school out of the many thousands we have articles on is because I had 2 brothers who went there. I see you are looking to make the article FA so in fact this will be helpful. What I have also done is removed the links from all the red link names, I am quite happy to see these people included but believe we should only link to living people when they actually have an article about them and when people restore them to this article they should eleave these people unlinked, SqueakBox 22:37, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Old Merchant Taylors (OMTs)

 * The Rev Dr. Cormac Rigby, Radio 3 broadcaster 1965-85, Roman Catholic Priest 1988-2007
 * Riz Ahmed star of The Reluctant Fundamentalist (film) & Four Lions; also raps as MC Riz
 * Sir Bulstrode Whitelocke, Parliamentary leader in the English Civil War
 * Oswald Barron, journalist and scholar
 * Hugh Boulter, Archbishop of Armagh
 * Alex Cadwallader, rugby union player with Bristol, Newcastle Falcons and London Welsh, and rugby league player with the London Broncos (now Harlequins Rugby League).
 * Nigel Calder, distinguished populariser of science
 * Edward Hallett Carr, historian, author of What is History?
 * Lynn Chadwick, sculptor
 * Bob Chilcott, composer and former member of the King's Singers
 * Donald Coggan, Archbishop of Canterbury, 1974-80
 * Christopher Daykin, Government Actuary and former President of the Institute of Actuaries
 * Alan Duncan, Shadow Secretary of State for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform, MP
 * Henry R.H. Hall, Egyptologist and historian
 * I.E.S. Edwards Egyptologist and Author
 * Richard Faulkner, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, Labour Peer
 * Lord Gilbert, Minister for Defence
 * William Hailey, Governor of the Punjab and later the United Provinces, most distinguished member of Indian Civil Service
 * Conn Iggulden, Best-selling author of "Emperor" series and "The Dangerous Book for Boys"
 * Lawrence James, (schoolmaster) Best-selling author of "The Middle Class: A History"
 * Sir William Joynson-Hicks, Home Secretary 1924-1929
 * William Juxon, Archbishop of Canterbury, he had attended Charles I on the scaffold in 1649
 * Thomas Kyd, Elizabethan dramatist and author of The Spanish Tragedy
 * Thomas Lodge, dramatist and writer during Elizabethan and Jacobean periods
 * Alfred Marshall, economist
 * Michael McIntyre, Comedian
 * Jeremy Meadow, West End theatre producer
 * Dr John Monro, Physician of Bethlem Hospital (Bedlam) (see Dr James Monro)
 * Stephen Nickell, Warden of Nuffield College, Oxford
 * Sir Cyril Norwood, educationalist
 * Titus Oates, (expelled) Troublemaker
 * Samuel Palmer, visionary landscape painter
 * Michael Peschardt, distinguished foreign correspondent for the BBC
 * John Randall, MP
 * Andrew Robathan, MP
 * Martin Rowson, Cartoonist
 * Pat Sharp, radio DJ and television presenter
 * Marcos Simpson, Ireland National Sabre Fencing Coach
 * Sir Robert Smith, MP
 * Edmund Spenser, poet, author of The Faerie Queene and Lord Deputy of Ireland
 * Paul Sussman, Best-selling author of "The lost army of Cambyses"
 * James Twining, Best-selling thriller writer ("The Double Eagle" and "The Black Sun")
 * Mike Majerus, entomologist.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.249.183.30 (talk) 16:02, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Victoria Cross Holders
Three Old Merchant Taylors have won the Victoria Cross:


 * Victoria Cross
 * First World War
 * Lieutenant John Cridlan Barrett VC TD, (1897 to 1977). He later achieved the rank of Colonel.
 * Midshipman George Leslie Drewry VC R.N R, (1894 to 1918). He was the first officer in the Royal Naval Reserve and Merchant Service so honoured. He later achieved the rank of Lieutenant and was killed in action in 1918.
 * Captain Alfred Oliver Pollard VC, MC & Bar, DCM (1893 to 1960). He was a Second Lieutenant in the Honourable Artillery Company when he won the VC in 1917.

michael  Curtis talk+contributions 22:22, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

OMT's again
An anonymous editor has added two other historical dramatists, Thomas Kyd and John Webster, as OMT's, but without references. Kyd's article confirms this for him, but Webster's dos not - indeed, it says that extremely little is known about his life. Would the editor please add references? --ColinFine (talk) 21:24, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Kyd's attendance at the school is well-documented. Webster's is accepted by an overhwleming majority of scholarly opinion. At random, e.g. "John Webster also attended the school, though probably after Mulcaster's retirement in 1586" (Julia Briggs, Professor of English, De Montfort University, "This Stage Play World - Texts & Contexts 1580-1625", Oxford University Press, page 196.

Father John, and Uncle, Edward Webster, were Freemen of the Merchant Taylors' Company. The family lived in St. Sepulchre's parish. It is therefore overwhelmingly likely - particularly given the pronounced rivalry between the Livery Companies, the educational practice of the time, and the scholarly framework of his oeuvre - that he attended the School. Some dubiety characterizes almost all Tudor records of this type. Spenser's presence at the School, for example, was similarly not incontrovertibly provable (for 300 years) until the coming to light of the Townley Hall MSS and their publication by A. B. Grosart in 1877. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.85.20.157 (talk) 11:12, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Merchts.gif
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BetacommandBot (talk) 00:54, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Move to Sandy Lodge
The following was added by User:Ninjie to an unrelated section further up. I have moved it here, and given it a title. Ninjie, please also sign your posts on talk pages with four tildes: ~ --ColinFine (talk) 12:10, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

From the section 1908 - 1933 I removed the following line. "Many of the pupils of the school in the city now came from north London and the movement of the school was perhaps a case of Mohammed going to the mountain."

If someone can explain or justify the relation between what I removed and the original article, please, by all means do and replace it, otherwise I believe it was added in error and has nothing to do with the subject of the article.

-ninje 06/11/2001 4:38 GMT


 * No, it makes sense if you know the expression If the mountain won't come to Mohammed, Mohammed must go to the mountain. But that phrase is now very dated, and some people are afraid it will be found offensive, so it is best to remove it. But in any case the sentence is unreferenced, so it should be removed. (Actually, the whole section - indeed, most of the article - is unreferenced, but most of the section reports facts which can in principle be verified. This sentence is explaining the reason for something, so unless it can specifically be verified from a reliable source, it is original research and should be removed. --12:10, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification. My mind did not err on the side of offense, but merely proper subject matter and vocabulary. Ninjie (talk) 23:38, 13 June 2011 (UTC)Ninjie

Multiple issues
Firstly, this article has been correctly flagged as needing more inline references since 2011: these remain urgently needed. The POV tag also seems not to have been fully addressed. In addition, the article appears to have been used in an essay-like manner as a WP:COATRACK for a general dissertation on the English public schools in general, with for instance material on flogging and rebellions in other schools. Much of this could be cut; some perhaps moved to other articles. Several items have been tagged (long ago) as needing clarification. The article needs work, or radical pruning. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:54, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

And, why are there redlinked names in the list of notable former pupils? Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:23, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Merge
I have suggested that Merchant Taylors' Prep School should be merged to here as it is a non-notable primary, as per WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES. Any comments appreciated.CalzGuy (talk) 16:18, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Hi. I get where you're coming from here, and I would tend to agree with merging the articles. The only point I would raise is that Merchant Taylors' Prep School did used to be a different one (Northwood Prep School) and I feel that a merged article could ignore that fact too much. The has only operated as part of Merchant Taylors' School, Northwood for the past two years, whereas it operated for just over a hundred years independently. This is only a minor point, however I thought it might be appropriate to raise it. Secondly, I would also point out that the trend of primary schoo'ls being non-notable seems to be favoured towards state primarys, and not independent (or private/prep) schools. Most prep schools have remained on Wikipedia for years, whereas it is difficult to find most state primary schools on here. Thirdly, the school has not merged fully to become the part of the same establishment. The addresses are different and the buildings are seperate. The leadership is different. Therefore, it could more aptly be described as affiliated, as it is in the infobox of Merchant Taylors' School, Northwood as in a similar article at Ampleforth College where the infobox leads to the affiliated, but not the same school (St Martin's Ampleforth). Thanks, --Iambic Pentameter (talk / contribs) 20:27, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
 * My whole point is that the content merged to here would tend to be the encyclopaedic stuff. There's not a lot in the article anyway, so a single paragraph such as
 * Merchant Taylors' Prep is the preparatory school for Merchant. It was originally Northwood Prep School, but merged into Merchant in 2015, enabling Merchant Taylors' to become an all-through school from age 3 to 18. The headmistress of the prep school is Karen McNerney, who has taught at the school since 2001.
 * There really is nothing else notable in the original article. At a push, a sentence about the 2 sites might be worth adding. CalzGuy (talk) 20:48, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Fair enough - that seems great. Thanks, Iambic Pentameter (talk / contribs) 20:58, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

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History taken from school website
As far as I can tell, the main and mostly unsourced history section, which was added in 2004 by User:Merchanttaylorsschoolnorthwood, was taken verbatim from the school website, archived here. It is too long ago to make revdel feasible. It does need re-writing with actual sources. Tacyarg (talk) 01:28, 23 November 2022 (UTC)