Talk:Merseyrail/Archive 4

City Line
The article is vague and confusing on the City Line. Firstly the City Line does not have an old BR logo as a part of the City Line logo - or does it? That parts must be removed with a new graphic. The trains and stations are operated by Northern, however many of the stations are branded Merseyrail with Merseyrail yellow and Merseyrail logos. I put up a photo of Thatto Heath station clearly showing all the Merseyrail branding at the station. Also the ticketing is Merseyrail. The Lime St to St.Helens and Lime St to Wigan services are all Merseyrail branded stations. In all intents from a passengers point of view it is a Merseyrail service. 2A01:4B00:881D:3700:F8DB:2030:5E46:6A06 (talk) 21:56, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
 * There is no requirement that the branding of trains and stations must match. There are hundreds, if not thousands, where they differ. Take a trip from Liverpool Lime Street to Birmingham New Street on a London Northwestern train, and return on a Avanti West Coast service (you may need to change at Crewe). Check the branding at each station. Does it match the train? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. They certainly won't repaint the station between your outward train and your return. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 23:37, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Your analogy was a bit off. The point is Merseyrail and the City Line branding. The coverage on the City Line is confusing, like it is a part of Merseyrail but isn't. The City Line is clearly on the maps. The article appears to pretend the City Line is not really there, focusing strongly on the 3rd rail part on Merseyrail. As I wrote, the Wigan/St.Helens to Liverpool line is encompassed within Merseyrail without doubt, branding and ticketing. One Merseyrail ticket bought at Wigan can get you to West Kirby.
 * As an aside, talking a Merseytravel man, who informed that the new Merseyrail trains would have been on the Liverpool-Wigan/St.Helens line, however there is no easy way to get them to Kirkdale for stabling and Stadler's maintenance depot, until the Edge Hill Wapping Tunnel is completed. So, the line remains with incompetent Northern (so bad they have just been nationalised).  188.214.11.240 (talk) 12:36, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
 * The article states that Merseyrail is 68 stations. This is misleading. The Liverpool-Wigan/St.Helens line has many station only on the City Line. These stations may not be run by Merseyrail, but only the City Line uses them - in effect rented stations to Merseyrail. These stations need to be added up with their numbers then stated in the article. Merseyrail extends further than just the 3rd rail stations, track and trains run by Merseyrail Electrics. Merseyrail is much more than that. 2A01:4B00:881D:3700:F882:89E:6379:F6AB (talk) 16:34, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Merseyrail's own website lists 68 stations so this page is correct. https://www.merseyrail.org/sitemap.aspx LicenceToCrenellate (talk) 17:56, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
 * You never got the point. It is the number of stations that Merseyrail serve. These can be in separate categories. Merseyrail clearly serves more than 68 stations. 2A01:4B00:881D:3700:F882:89E:6379:F6AB (talk) 18:04, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
 * There is an extra 20 stations between Lime St and Wigan, Newton le Willows and Sth Parkway, served by the City Line. Baltic Triangle and Headbolt Lane, not on the City Line, to be added when built. Take all the stations on the City Line inside the City Region, with a few extras to Wigan, then the count is around 90 stations served by Merseyrail. The City Line stations inside Merseyside have the Merseyrail Totem outside. Even Upton and Heswall station on the Borderlands Line have Merseyrail totems outside, those outside Merseyside do not. As the Liverpool City Region is now official maybe those in Halton should have one as well.2A01:4B00:881D:3700:F882:89E:6379:F6AB (talk) 18:12, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
 * The Merseyrail Totem is outside Heswall station on the Borderland line to Wrexham, yet this this is not regarded as the City Line. http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~owend/interests/rail/stnpages/heswall.html   2A01:4B00:881D:3700:B4E4:1634:CEA9:BB49 (talk) 17:58, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Updated the City Line section with refs. The Liverpool-Chester line via Runcorn needs adding to the City Line table. 2A01:4B00:881D:3700:B4E4:1634:CEA9:BB49 (talk) 17:59, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
 * All the stations on the Liverpool to Manchester Line, via Newton le Willows, are branded Merseyrail that are inside Merseyside. Strangely, Town Green and Aughton, both in Lancashire, on the Northern Line with only Merseyrail services, do not have Merseyrail branding. 2A01:4B00:881D:3700:3110:8A5B:3838:BA33 (talk) 16:15, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
 * All non-mainline services inside Merseytravel's area are "Merseyrail", no matter where the train comes from or to, who owns the train, who owns the lines or who operates the train. That is the definition of Merseyrail. All the stations inside Merseytravel's area are branded "Merseyrail" by Merseytravel, even the stations on the Borderlands Line. The ticketing is seamless in all the stations. "All" the stations inside Merseytravel's area are under "their" authority. 2A01:4B00:881D:3700:15E5:8A86:29F4:757C (talk) 09:42, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Some excellent points made here. Merseyside is now a part of the Liverpool City Region, which has its own metro-mayor. The city region is Merseyside with Halton added. The metro-mayor has a slogan, "Merseyrail for all". He is proposing Merseyrail battery-electric class 777 trains be run to Runcorn East and Widnes, etc, which are inside the city region being within his remit. Merseytravel only operated inside the Merseyside boundaries but now Halton has extended their remit.

https://www.merseytravel.gov.uk/about/about-merseytravel/ Merseytravel state: "Merseytravel is the Executive body that provides professional, strategic and operational transport advice to the Liverpool City Region Combined Authority". All quite clear in their website. The number of stations served by Merseyrail by the Northern & Wirral Lines and the City Line stations inside Merseytravel's area, is 81 by my counting. More stations when Halton is counted in, but they do not appear on the City Line maps - yet. The stations are branded Merseyrail with the same ticketing, as been mentioned. Travel to Liverpool on the Liverpool to Manchester line, the stations change colour with Merseyrail branding when the train enters Merseyside. The 81 figure should be in the intro. Wisdom-inc (talk) 11:46, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

City Line again
It would be propitious to reach a consensus on the place (or lack thereof) of the so-called City Line in this article. I remain convinced it is merely a Merseytravel marketing and branding concept. The stations are not operated by Merseyrail and the trains are certainly not Merseyrail. I think it needs a rewrite with the City Line reduced to just an explanatory statement that it is used by Merseytravel as a marketing device and is not part of the network as such.

This claim in the City Line section is absolute nonsense: "When a commuter train, not operated by Merseytravel, enters the Merseytravel area it becomes a Merseyrail service." Trains do not, in any way, become Merseyrail when they enter the Merseyside area. The stopping services and the stations are operated by Northern, not Merseyrail.

Finally, I think the opening statement could be amended to acknowledge the name Merseyrail is applied to both the commuter network and the train operating company which provides all its services. L1v3rp00l (talk) 13:35, 14 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Would support a rewording of the lead, but maybe split the article between Merseyrail and Merseyrail (brand) like ScotRail and ScotRail (brand) as it seems to have a similar origin as a brand name aswell. Many Thanks  Dank Jae  00:23, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

"City Line is shown in red on the Merseyrail map"
Hi, can it be specified what map this refers too. Merseyrail does not have the city line on its network map.

A map from Merseytravel does include the City Line on its "Local Network Map" but does not call it Merseyrail on the map. Merseytravel used to describe the map as "Merseyrail" with the City Line, such as in 2010, however since 2018 it rebranded its network map to "Local Rail Network" and only describes the Wirral Line and the Northern Line to be "Merseyrail". So should it be "on the Merseytravel map" or "on the Local Network Map", Many Thanks  Dank Jae  16:12, 5 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Hi, can you please cite your claim on City Line's inclusion within Merseyrail? Jalen Folf   (talk)  18:18, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The bottom gives the three lines.
 * https://merseytravel.adidocdn.dev/Content/Bus/Route%20Maps/MerseyrailNetworkMap.pdf
 * Ticketing is seamless across Northern, Wirral and City lines:
 * https://www.merseytravel.gov.uk/tickets-and-pricing/ticket-types/railpass-ticket/
 * City Line stations with the City Region are branded with 'Merseyrail' written clearly on on the stations. All painted Merseyrail yellow.
 * Travel zones, which takes in City Line:
 * https://merseytravel.adidocdn.dev/Content/Bus/Route%20Maps/Zones-Map-June-18.pdf
 * City Line on Merseyrail web site:
 * https://www.merseyrail.org/media/954165/city-line-book-1-from-10-december-2017-to-19-may-2018.pdf
 * Mentions City Line in May 2022:
 * https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/how-merseyrail-network-looks-completely-23833206 Wisdom-inc (talk) 22:04, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Hough Green station on the City Line. Indicating a Merseyrail station.
 * https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3718092,-2.7750159,3a,23.3y,97.34h,81.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9wWbKUFJSfZwlV-15QOHVw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 Wisdom-inc (talk) 22:48, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi. The areas map does not use the term Merseyrail either, it is blank of any term (and who made it), the page starts with Merseytravel and as another source shows it is also present on Merseytravel, therefore likely a generic map by either Merseytravel or Merseyrail (so cannot be assumed "Merseyrail"). And if it is the one referred to, surely "the areas map on Merseyrail's website" is more accurate than the vague "Merseyrail map", which more likely refers to the two maps I linked, of which one has removed "Merseyrail". I believe rewording the sentence to focus more on station branding is better than the unclear meaning of "Merseyrail map".
 * Mentioning the other reply, I'm not sure what you mean by "The bottom gives the three lines", it clearly shows Merseyrail (operator) is only on Northern and Wirral, but all three lines do fall under "Merseytravel's Customer Service" but that does not state Merseyrail (its Merseytravel), neither is the Map described as Merseyrail.
 * Maybe the article should be split between Merseyrail and Merseyrail (brand) like ScotRail and ScotRail (brand), just saying. Thanks  Dank Jae  23:41, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Read the links I gave. Merseyrail branned stations on City line, A map on Merseyrail showing City Line, etc, etc.
 * Merseyrail map on the Merseyrail web site showing City Line. It says Northern Line, Wirral Line and City Line very clearly.
 * https://www.merseyrail.org/tickets-passes/online-tickets/metrosmart.aspx Wisdom-inc (talk) 23:14, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
 * It uses the term "Area and Zone Map" and is also on Merseytravel here. So cannot be assumed just cause it is on Merseyrail's website that it is a Merseyrail map, even if so surely "Merseyrail areas map" then is more accurate for the article. Just saying "Merseyrail map" is very vague and should be specified or reworded, in my opinion. The reader is likely going to assume "Merseyrail map" means the more common network map rather than some specific ticketing map.  Dank Jae  00:11, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
 * If the map is on a Merseyrail web site it is a Merseyrail map. Final. Wisdom-inc (talk) 00:31, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Exactly " a Merseyrail map" not " the Merseyrail map". There are others that don't have the line, so needs clarifying.  Dank Jae  00:53, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Why is that areas map superior to this map on the same website, so by your definition "a Merseyrail map" which omits the line. Unlike that areas map which is about ticketing, this one clearly states "Merseyrail Network". I strongly argue readers would assume this Network Map (which is linked very clearly on the home page) or Merseytravel's Local Network Map is the "Merseyrail map" than some ticketing map you have to dig to find, are you arguing the City Line is part of Merseyrail because of ticketing? If so state that, rather than the unclear "Merseyrail map".  Dank Jae  01:01, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
 * You were given lots of other links, but developed selective amnesia.
 * "are you arguing the City Line is part of Merseyrail because of ticketing?" I am not arguing. You saw one map on the Merseyrail web site that only had the 3rd rail lines, so jumped to a conclusion. Wisdom-inc (talk) 08:21, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Merseytravel are responsible for three lines within the city region. They farm out two to one company and the other to others, because a tunnel was not used to physically merge them all. They brand them all as Merseyrail using the same branding & signage at stations and ticketing. From a passenger's view the authority and who it is farmed out to, to operate, is hidden from them.  They know it as one network. That was the intention, which works.
 * The City Line was to be a fully integrated part of the electric network. The Wapping Tunnel from Central to Edge Hill was dropped by DfT, isolating the City Line keeping it diesel running. Most of the City Line is now electric services (e.g., Liverpool to St.Helens/Wigan), but not merged into the franchise of the other two electric lines, as the trains cannot reach the stabling & maintenance depots at Birkenhead and Kirkdale easily, despite being equipped with overhead wires and 3rd rail shoes. If they could, the Liverpool to St.Helens/Wigan services would be on the Northern Line and Wirral Line franchise. If the Bootle Branch line was electrified or the Wapping tunnel used, there is a good possibility the original plan will advance with Merseyrail 777 trains being seen on the Liverpool to St.Helens/Wigan City Line, being a part of the franchise. Wisdom-inc (talk) 11:15, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
 * You have purposely selected a map on ticketing and said this is the true map, rather than the more common maps for some unknown reason. You have also jumped to the conclusion the areas map somehow shows the true merseyrail network in your opinion and purely because it is on Merseyrail's website, yet common maps showing that network do not describe it as Merseyrail, so "the Merseyrail map" is not fully accurate, its is more accurate as "Merseyrail ticketing map" or "Merseytravel ticketing map" as such map is also present on Merseytravel and lacks a author.
 * If you can find a clear map (up to date) with the term "Merseyrail" clearly used for all three lines, rather then the unmarked areas map then "Merseyrail map" would make sense, but currently is does not.
 * The "Lots of other links" are not on maps, I'm only asking what is this "the Merseyrail map", I do not believe the areas map is "the Merseyrail map" and as you said it is "a Merseyrail map" but likely less clear to the reader who would assume "the Merseyrail map" refers to the more common ones, rather than a specific ticketing one you have to look to find.
 * You state Merseytravel is reponsible, I suggested numerous times "Merseytravel" be used over "Merseyrail" for clarity, Merseyrail can also mean the operator (that does not include the city line). I have also suggested station branding be used in the sentence rather than this unclear map as that is much more clearer.
 * The rest of your response is uncited, and based on possibilities, please verify. Even if true, "not merged into the franchise", "was to be fully integrated" indicates it is not fully part of "Merseyrail" which this article also covers the franchise and operator, therefore we need to improve clarity, rather than the "City Line [...] is on the Merseyrail map", Merseyrail the operator?, this past "branding of Merseyrail" map?
 * As a proposal below has opened based on my suggestion, this constant overlap between the wider Merseyrail brand as you describe and as the narrower usage by the operator, may need separate articles. Many Thanks  Dank Jae  12:50, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
 * "You have purposely selected a map on ticketing and said this is the true map"
 * You have purposely selected a map to suit your agenda, ignoring all other points. Wisdom-inc (talk) 18:38, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
 * It is best your read the history Liverpool urban metro and how and why the three lines came about. BTW, it was not always called Merseyrail Wisdom-inc (talk) 18:40, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I am not talking about history, I am talking about the modern day, and if it is historical then it should say that. Modern maps no longer clearly describe the City Line as Merseyrail, therefore I am disputing "the Merseyrail map", I am not going to enter the long discussions over the City Line.  Dank Jae  14:25, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I am not talking about history, I am talking about the modern day, and if it is historical then it should say that. Modern maps no longer clearly describe the City Line as Merseyrail, therefore I am disputing "the Merseyrail map", I am not going to enter the long discussions over the City Line.  Dank Jae  14:25, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

What the City Line is
All urban rail within the Liverpool City Region comes under the travel authority, Merseytravel.

Merseyrail has two 3rd rail dedicated and segregated lines, the Northern and Wirral Lines. Some of the stations are not in the Liverpool City Region. But they are branded Merseyrail, because they are on the dedicated Merseyrail network. Chester and Ormskirk are examples. So, all urban stations inside the Liverpool City Region are branded Merseyrail. There are also some outside the region also branded Merseyrail.

All urban stations under Merseytravel, the travel authority are all branded Merseyrail. That is the colour yellow, signage and seamless ticketing across Merseyrail's three lines: Northern, Wirral and City Lines. From a passengers view it is all one network. As the Northern and Wirral lines are dedicated 3rd rail electric and segregated from other lines and trains, they were run as one via a franchise by Serco-Abellio for Merseytravel.

The City Line is the line that confuses people. The City Line is shared services. That is, any urban services operated by other train operators other than Serco-Abellio that enter the Merseytravel area from other areas automatically become Merseyrail trains, operating on the City Line. City Line is 'shared' services, the other two 3rd rail lines are not. But all still on Merseyrail. Quite simple but hard for some to grasp.

The City Line was supposed to be an integrated part of the 3rd rail electrified network. However when Thatcher came to power the work was dropped. The lines to Warrington and Wigan were to be on the 3rd rail network but left to be diesel (Wigan is now electrified) unable to enter the electric central underground section. The Wapping Tunnel into Central from Edge Hill was not used, so leaving the eastern part of the city isolated. The City Line stayed as shared services until the lines were electrified with access to Kirkdale, then brought into the Serco-Abellio franchise.

In 2015 the Liverpool to Wigan Line, via St.Helens, was electrified using wires. This was not brought into the Serco-Abellio franchise as the trains, even though they also had 3rd rail shoes, could not get to the Merseyrail stabling and maintenance depots at Kirkdale and Birkenhead, so stayed with Northern. If the Bootle Branch line is electrified (it was to be along with Liverpool-Wigan) you may find the Liverpool to Wigan line brought into the Serco-Abellio franchise, as the trains can then reach Kirkdale. Also they may be the new 777s. Wisdom-inc (talk) 10:04, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The article needs a partial rewrite to clarify this. Wisdom-inc (talk) 10:06, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Uncited information. Please add citations, in particular of the term "shared services", being a sponsor does not really make you an operator. You have added uncited information to the article in edits, in particular the lead's meaning, |here, |here,, concurrent edits here, |here, |here, |here, more unsourced information of your personal definition of Merseyrail is not needed now, and you have edit warred to maintain it. Having two meanings of "Merseyrail" in the same article, even if they were set to be integrated in the past, for operational (train operator) purposes they are not, only merely branded as such, so having both here gets confusing for readers, so what's wrong with having two that can clearly describe their individual meanings with sources?
 * "passengers view it is all one network", we don't source from passenger perceptions, but verified sources. Merseytravel listed them as separate networks in this document for example.
 * "automatically become Merseyrail trains", how so? just because they're in the LCR? Merseytravel not "Merseyrail" does expand tickets to the City Line, but the line is not part of "Merseyrail only" tickets, how can that be, if they are as you claim Merseyrail trains?? Do Merseyrail (Electrics) services in Chester become Transport for Wales because they operate and brand the station? No. The services on the City Line are Northern trains (and others), sponsored by Merseytravel (as you say), operating through some stations branded as "Merseyrail", but are not "Merseyrail trains". Ticketing means they are Merseytravel-sponsored services, nothing to do with "Merseyrail", the tickets are not branded or styled as Merseyrail, those that are described "Merseyrail only" do not apply to the City Line. So the stations are branded Merseyrail, the trains are not.
 * "all urban stations inside the Liverpool City Region are branded Merseyrail", not exactly correct, as far as I am aware, Upton and Heswall are largely not, except the totem which only has the emblem (omitting "Merseyrail") which is also the logo of Merseytravel, as described as at Ormskirk (outside the LCR, however shows the "M" without wording can mean either). I believe all stations in the LCR or solely/mainly Merseyrail Electrics-operated have the "M" totem, but are not all necessarily branded Merseyrail (on the platforms), High-level Lime St is branded Network Rail (aside totem) and TfW branding covers Upton and Heswall (earlier than most of the Welsh stations on the line surprisingly). Meols Cop within Southport's Urban area in Merseyside, LCR is mainly branded Northern, with "Merseytravel" not "Merseyrail" . So that is not correct, rather "stations on the Wirral and Northern lines served by Merseyrail (Electrics) excluding Chester, and those on the City Line within the Liverpool City Region excluding Liverpool Lime Street (high level) are managed by Merseytravel and branded Merseyrail", so definitely not "all".  Dank  Jae  15:30, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * "in particular of the term "shared services", being a sponsor does not really make you an operator."
 * You really do not get this. As I wrote: "Quite simple but hard for some to grasp." Wisdom-inc (talk) 21:57, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Is that really your argument? Attacking my understanding? You compare me to a dog and said I have memory issues, and now state I am dense. I only ask for sources not abuse. It seems you're so eager to attack others, as you boldened your statements that I and others are too idiotic to understand your knowledge of the City Line rather than any information you have provided without sources.
 * If I am misunderstood be free to correct me, and explain why your term "shared" makes more sense than the previous wording. I only believe "services" refers to the service provider which is the actual operator of the trains, Merseytravel merely sponsors (as you say), and does not have the main role in providing such services, from timetables to rolling stock.  Dank Jae  22:57, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Several times on this page (in different threads) you have mentioned the difficulty of getting City line trains to Kirkdale. It's actually quite easy, via the Hunts Cross chord. But why would they need to get to Kirkdale, when the existing depot at Allerton could be used? -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 23:23, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * City Line trains would be have to be OHL and 3rd rail. The 3rd rail shoes were removed. Merseyrail's depots are not in Allerton, they are in Kirkdale and Birkenhead, with increasing focus on Stadler's maintenace facility in Kirkdale. Wisdom-inc (talk) 10:57, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Allerton depot is presently used by Northern Trains (in succession to Arriva Rail North), who operate the four city line routes. If one or more routes are transferred to Merseyrail, the trains used on that route will also be transferred, together with depot facilities. Where's the problem? -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 11:41, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

City line article rename
Please take a look at Talk:City Line (Merseyrail). Now that the self-assumed owner of the various Merseyrail/Merseytravel articles has been permanently blocked, it would seem reasonable to move forward with some much needed restructuring. This page move is the first step. I look forward to working with you all now that we can expect reasonable behaviour to prevail. 10mmsocket (talk) 18:15, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
 * @10mmsocket, done so, I assume this is a counter-proposal to the split above? As the City Line's status is the only real issue. Be free to argue for it there too.  Dank  Jae  01:54, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I'd be on board with looking at renaming the city line article to be more reflective of it's branding under Merseytravel, as opposed to Merseyrail. I do think there are still some legs in the original split of this article, proposed by DankJae, though a draft of how it could look has yet to be made (although WP:THEREISNORUSH). Bungle (talk • contribs) 16:41, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Definitely not counter to your idea, I support it fully. That's what prompted me to act once the troublesome one departed. 10mmsocket (talk) 17:06, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 2 February 2023

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: No consensus - some evidence needed of use of capitalised form. (non-admin closure)  Mattdaviesfsic (talk) 21:14, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

– For consistency with the style used by Merseyrail, and to match the existing City Line (Merseytravel). XAM2175 (T) 20:05, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Northern line (Merseyrail) → Northern Line (Merseyrail)
 * Wirral line → Wirral Line


 * Support I like consistency and support it 10mmsocket (talk) 21:44, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Support per above Lean oppose, usage is mixed unfortunately    even in the same news article and by Merseyrail mid-sentence, MOS:TITLECAPS, WP:LOWERCASE and WP:NCCAPS leans sentence case, even if signage leans capitalised. City Line may be the exception as it is to me more a brand than an actual line.  Dank  Jae  13:35, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment - for real consistency, shouldn't it actually be Wirral Line (Merseyrail)? 10mmsocket (talk) 14:13, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
 * That would actually be my first preference, but I'm reading it as likely being discouraged by WP:PRECISE. XAM2175  (T) 14:20, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment - No other Wirral Line to disambiguate from, so not needed, the only closest potential disambiguation would be some use of the term "Mid Wirral line" for the Borderlands Line, but that is overwhemingly called that instead, or Wirral Line (Hooton to West Kirby branch) but that is a redirect.
 * Addtionally, scrolling through histories, the original reasoning for decapping (it was originally Wirral Line) was done by Dicklyon with this as the rationale. Usage is indeed mixed, disputing whether it is a proper name, and titles should be sentence case. But signage and labels are overwhemingly capitalised. MOS:TITLECAPS probably applies somewhat?  Dank Jae  14:54, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I get that yes, I just like symmetry, balance, precision, consistency, etc. Happy with as-is proposal though. 10mmsocket (talk) 14:57, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I guess, and agree same it would be nice, but well the City Line is now bracketed Merseytravel instead, so never fully consistent.  Dank Jae  15:16, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose – usage is mixed in reliable sources, no need for us to capitalize the 'l'. MOS:CAPS "Wikipedia avoids unnecessary capitalization" – if good sources consistently capitalized it, then we should too, but they don't. ErikHaugen (talk &#124; contribs) 18:12, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

First use of BEMUs in passenger service in the UK
, why do you persist in insisting that the Headbolt Lane extension is the first use of BEMUs in passenger service in the UK when there is plenty of evidence that it was not? -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 21:58, 18 October 2023 (UTC)


 * it is the first fleet, the other BEMU was a singular, primararily text vehicle. Also, check the citations, there is articles to support the claim. --- 𝓙𝓪𝓭𝓮 (Talk) •  𝓉𝒽𝑒𝓎/𝓉𝒽𝑒𝓂  23:50, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
 * There was also the fleet of 10 Class 419's which were luggage/brake cars which operated singly or coupled to Class 410 and 411 in passenger service between 1959 and 1991 after which they were used as Departmental tractor units until 1998. As well as the Class 379 that was trialled with batteries and the Class 230's which entered service in 2019. WatcherZero (talk) 01:43, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * 230s arent battery operated, they are hybrid. --- 𝓙𝓪𝓭𝓮 (Talk) •  𝓉𝒽𝑒𝓎/𝓉𝒽𝑒𝓂  05:53, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * They have a diesel generator to charge the batteries or flywheel and then operate purely from electrical motors, they dont have a mechanical transmission so aren't hybrid propulsion. WatcherZero (talk) 16:24, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * the other BEMU was a singular, primararily text vehicle - presumably "text" is a typo for "test" - there were two vehicles, not one, numbers Sc79998 and Sc79999; and they ran in normal passenger-carrying service for several years, not exactly the sort of thing to expect of test vehicles. I need to dig out my copy of The Railway Magazine for July 1958 - I know where it is, storage box M28, but I can't find that box yet.
 * check the citations, there is articles to support the claim - I note that the cited source (the only source) contains a note reading UPDATE - 16 October 2023: Story updated to make clear this is the first battery-powered fleet of trains, rather than train, and there are plenty of comments regarding the accuracy too. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 20:31, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
 * exactly my point, its the first fleet.. --- 𝓙𝓪𝓭𝓮 (Talk) •  𝓉𝒽𝑒𝓎/𝓉𝒽𝑒𝓂  23:02, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The 777s are the first hybrid electric/battery train used on and urban metro netework in the UK. 140.228.54.0 (talk) 00:05, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Lead
Hello! I've recently made some fairly large changes to the lead, so in the spirit of WP:BRD I'm opening up a discussion about them. Feel free to contribute A.D.Hope (talk) 16:45, 12 November 2023 (UTC)


 * @DankJae I can see you've reverted. Do you have any comments on the changes? A.D.Hope (talk) 16:46, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
 * @A.D.Hope, the main topic of this article is ideally the network itself, not the brand (otherwise the split above should go ahead). Kinda like describing London Underground as a brand? There is a source for City Line (Merseytravel) being a term/brand name, if there was inspiration from that article, as well as its lack of presence outside of a few maps and signs, compared to the presence and operator of Merseyrail.
 * But the main reason for the revert is 1) how to the describe the system has been discussed here, so better use consensus here, than override it; 2) is there a source describing it as a brand name? You replaced the source that stated it wasn't.
 * Thanks for any other trimming, and not wholly opposed to the idea if it can be explained more clearly. Regards  Dank Jae  16:55, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The main topic of the article isn't just the network though, it's the network (Northern and Wirral lines) and the separate collection of services and stations (City Line) which use the 'Merseyrail' brand. It's a lot to have to explain in a lead, and I can understand why a split has been considered.
 * There are a few sources which refer to Merseyrail as a brand in relation to the network, such as rail enthusiast websites and the BID, and while it would be nice to have something more concrete that should be enough; it's largely self-evident that 'Merseyrail' is a brand regardless of whether it's being used on the City Line or not. A.D.Hope (talk) 18:17, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The network should take priority as the main topic discussed in this article. The branding is only used for the City Line outside the conterminous network, so one sentence describing the city line is better than re-describing the entire lead to explain Merseyrail being on some extra signs. Those sources are clearly talking about the name "Merseyrail", rather than the system which this article is about. It is like stating "Liverpool is a place name for a city in Merseyside", Liverpool is obviously a place name, but the actual place is the topic.  Dank Jae  18:45, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
 * At the moment the article is about about Merseyrail as a whole, which includes all three lines; the City Line is mentioned throughout. Making the article soley about the network would be changing its primary focus, and mean stripping of that content out. A.D.Hope (talk) 20:41, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
 * @A.D.Hope, there have been past discussions of the City Line, with it largely being reduced from a version two years ago, following a dispute with one editor, so it is a lesser part of the article now. That article was even renamed "Merseytravel" from "Merseyrail" because of this. The split was proposed because of the long dispute over the City Line. If anything, the split should go ahead, rather than making this article more vague. There is no consensus to revert this article to "three line Merseyrail branding lines", if that is the case, the operator has to be removed from the article entirely.  Dank Jae  21:21, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The City Line is still a prominent part of the article–it has its own subsection–so the only logical conclusion is that the primary topic is Merseyrail as a whole rather than the network alone. If the primary topic was the network then the City Line would barely be mentioned.
 * I can see that there have been long discussions about the City Line and splitting the article, but neither has definitively shifted the primary topic. For what it's worth, rather than a split into yet another article it would probably be better, if the consensus is to make this article about only the network, to simply move all the City Line stuff to its existing main article. A.D.Hope (talk) 21:39, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
 * That can be a consideration, the existing article is a balancing act, between the network that is branded as Merseyrail and the network that is operated by Merseyrail, with the latter being the more common one but stricter. If the existing description is not enough, then the split may be needed in some form. This article is long nonetheless, and omits details on the operator a bit.  Dank Jae  22:02, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The article can easily cover both aspects of Merseyrail, the question is whether a split would be a better way of covering that information. Looking through the article there is a fair bit which could be condensed, the 'future' section in particular. A.D.Hope (talk) 01:16, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
 * @A.D.Hope, while yes it should cover both with due weight, most of this article discusses the network rather than the brand, so it makes sense the network is the main term. Later discussions in the split proposal agree something has to be split off, even if not the brand. If it can be condensed while retaining information then that's fine, but as a split is being discussed, best split it first then summarise it here, so no information is lost.  Dank Jae  01:30, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Excepting the Northern & Wirral Lines, the City Line is that all the urban lines inside the Mersetravel area, which is the Liverpool City Region, become City Line services no matter who runs the trains or where the come from outside the LCR. The stations inside the LCR are branded and ticketed Merseyrail, even though a Merseyrail 777 may not serve the station.
 * Simply, when an urban train enters the LCR it automatically becomes a City Line train, as it comes under Merseytravel inside their patch. 140.228.54.0 (talk) 00:29, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The City Line has been extensively discussed here, with no consensus to regard it as a core part of Merseyrail equivalent to the two other lines. "Automatically becomes" is not very clear.  Dank Jae  00:39, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I have just explained it to you. Very simply.
 * The City Line exists being in the article from day one.
 * If you cannot understand that keep away from the article. 140.228.54.0 (talk) 00:57, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
 * This is the version of the article "on day one" which states two lines, so you are incorrect. Please stop edit warring and discuss here, as it has a dozen of times, here, here, here, here, here and here.  Dank Jae  01:07, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah crap, not this again. This has come up time and time again - there are two earlier threads on this page, as well as in all four archives (1, 2, 3, 4). Let's not have this every few months, it's getting tedious. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 13:45, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

'Future' section
Separate from the above, what are people's thoughts on removing the majority of the 'Future' section? Some it is actually history and could possibly be incorporated into that section, but it includes a lot of schemes which didn't progress or which are very unlikely to happen in the near future. Personally I'd reduce it to just Liverpool Baltic and short paragraph on Merseyrail's general future ambitions (i.e. extending the network via battery train). A.D.Hope (talk) 12:11, 14 November 2023 (UTC)


 * @A.D.Hope, the future section is touched on as a potential split above. While you could summarise while retaining info, it may make more sense to split all the content off entirely (then summarise after). History of Merseyrail was raised as a potential split. So best wait, be free to join in the discussion above.  Dank Jae  12:29, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah, I didn't clock that the split discussion had restarted; I was under the mistaken impression it stalled a year ago. A.D.Hope (talk) 12:42, 14 November 2023 (UTC)