Talk:Merton College, Oxford/Archive 1

David Freud
No disrespect to David Freud, who as a Mertonian will undoubtedly be a person of rare quality, but surely becoming an investment banker is not in and of itself a sufficiently extraordinary achievement to warrant inclusion in the list of notables. Or have I missed something? Galatian (talk) 13:36, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Forgive my former ignorance, but it seems David Freud is the brains behind a number of UK welfare policy reforms, as alluded to in, for example, this article in The Spectator]. 85.210.104.240 (talk) 13:01, 22 July 2008 (UTC) ]

Sir Martin Gilbert
Sir Martin Gilbert has been added to the list of those matriculated before 1960, but from the admittedly slender evidence of his Wikipedia entry, I find no evidence that he was ever a student at Merton; the Wikipedia entry says he was an undergraduate at Magdalen. I propose he be removed, unless someone can provide a date of matriculation. --Antisyzygy 15:44, 13 January 2007 (UTC) Deleted, --Antisyzygy 09:58, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Martin Gilbert is a current Honorary fellow of Merton in 1994 and was previously a fellow having in 1962. See http://www.tantor.com/AuthorDetail.asp?Author=Gilbert_M, the description in http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jerusalem-Twentieth-Century-Martin-Gilbert/dp/0471283282 and http://www.harperperennial.co.uk/authors.aspx?id=2109. 129.67.158.52 00:07, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

An honorary fellow he might be, but that doesn't mean he matriculated there as a student. --Antisyzygy (talk) 17:22, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

JCR President
There was a vote of no confidence in the JCR President on Sunday 12 November 2006. Sometimes people make anonymous edits in good faith. SOURCE: http://www.cherwell.org/news/no_confidence_in_merton_jcr_president


 * I am sure the edit was bona fide but it needs a source, such as you have given. I will update the main article with the cherwell reference as a foot note. I have no idea how the JCR may have changed it's constitution since I was last involved (1985) but doesn't the Vice-President take over in the event of a vote of no confidence?  Or are they going to hold a new election?. Thruston 16:21, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * PS please sign your comments :-)

There was an election for the position of President on Friday, 17th November 2006. Laura Davies (the previous Vice-President) was the only candidate standing for the Presidency, and was elected to the post with a majority of 157 votes out of 191 ballots cast. SOURCE: http://jcr.merton.ox.ac.uk/02-the-jcr/05-elections-michaelmas-06.php

Sassoon
What authority is there for Siegfried Sassoon being a "graduate" at Merton? It's not mentioned in his DNB entry, nor on the college's own website.--Antisyzygy 10:30, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Possibly none, but see here for (yet) an(other) example of a journalist copying straight out of WP. We could mark it with [reference needed] but then we could do that for most of the others too... Perhaps someone in Oxford would care to go and look them all up in the college register? (at least all the modern ones, I don't think they kept it back in the 13th century).
 * Some of the current list are mentioned in Martin & Highfield (see References) but Sasoon is not.
 * Thruston 08:35, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll check Jean Moorcroft Wilson's biography of Sassoon when I next have the opportunity.--Antisyzygy 10:57, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Who counts as notable?
Colin Bundy was recently suppressed as a notable former student of Merton College. This surprised me. Just how notable does somebody have to be to count as notable?

Colin Bundy is:

-head of an Oxford College -a titular professor -a former head of a University of London recognised body (and deputy vice chancellor of the University) -a former university vice chancellor -an honorary fellow of an Oxford college -credited as one of the main figures in post-Apartheid higher education in South Africa

I should have imagined that somebody who was either a vice chancellor, or a professor, or a head of an Oxford college was notable. Colin Bundy is all three, and more.

I know Mertonians have a reputation as high flyers, but even among those Colin Bundy, despite not being a Nobel Laureate or a Knight of the Garter, is surely somewhat more eminent than most.--Oxonian2006 22:20, 23 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Is there a WP page about him? Perhaps if there is (or when there is) we can put the link back in -- it was only commented out after all.  The informal definition of "who is notable" has been no more than "there is a WP page about them".  I don't think that this is any form of policy, it's just what's observably happened in the past.


 * In general published authors (Ridpath, Jackson, Haddon, etc) are worth a mention in WP; college heads of house perhaps less so since they are notable to a rather smaller global audience; but from your short sketch above I am sure Bundy qualifies on many counts. Thruston 14:34, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Just a note about the dispute between Merton College, Oxford and Corpus Christi College, Cambridge about who has the first quad. The fact is that Corpus's old "court" is older but was not originally designed for academic use and was not laid out in staircases. Mob quad was designed for students to live in and was built divided into staircases.

Could we divide the list of alumni up more sensibly? By matriculation date, grouped into centuries perhaps? With a small paragraph characterising the group if possible. Comments on my attempts please. Thruston 09:08, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I just changed the second toast from "to the counter-revolution" to "long live the counter revolution", as stated in the official description of it ( http://freespace.virgin.net/barry.press/home/time/original.html ) Perhaps it would be a good idea to actually make up a new entry on it?

Recent changes
I've deleted the reference to one of the "spires" being removed to the University of Virginia. If it did happen, it's not indexed in Martin and Highfield's history, and wasn't mentioned in the Times for 1928, though that paper did see fit to report the completion of the Bradley Library.--Antisyzygy 10:01, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

One of the chapel spires was given to the University of Vrginia See http://www.virginia.edu/uvatoday/newsRelease.php?print=1&id=2196 and http://www.virginia.edu/uvatoday/newsRelease.php?id=2196. Could you please reinstate the reference. 129.67.158.52 00:19, 7 November 2007 (UTC) I'm fairly new to Wikipaedia, and I don't understand why my edit has been deleted. About 2 weeks ago I added some information about pool to the 'modern times' section. The information is factually accurate and viable since Merton does not excel in any other sport. No other team has maintained the same level of success: for the last three years, Merton has finished in the top two in both league and cup; this year, Merton stand to win an unprecendented double. Could someone explain why my changes have been removed?

Ben user:mert1444


 * Looking at the edit history I'd say that this was a fair question. Your addition appeared to be a bona fide improvement — however, perhaps it could have been more "encyclopedic" in tone? And if you could supply some form of verifiable reference that would be helpful.  How about something like this:


 * Merton has enjoyed more success at the less traditional sports that have become popular in recent years. For example there is a strong darts team and Merton teams have done well in eight-ball pool competitions; as of 2005 the Merton first VI are current inter-college League champions and are ranked as the best team in the University.


 * A source would be very helpful. The best I could find (Postmaster 2005) only says that the pool team were runners up in the league and in cuppers.


 * Thruston 14:41, 21 February 2006 (UTC)


 * PS please sign discussion posts with ~ and create a user page when you have a spare minute.


 * Hi Thurston, I can understand if you don't want to add this to the page. But pool is internationally recognised as a sport, and it is genuinely Merton College's highest achieving sports team.  I refer you to:


 * http://users.ox.ac.uk/~oupc/0506/Div1_2005.htm


 * If you follow the links to previous years, you will see that Merton has remained in the top two in both league and cup. This is a phenomenal achievement when one considers that the women's first VIII rowing squad has only been head of the river once in the past four years.  Plus, no other sports team in Merton is in their respective first division!


 * I admit that the style of the article may not have been to your liking, but I'm sure we can come to some kind of compromise. Ben


 * I am sure we can. But you perhaps misunderstand me.  I did not delete your original addition and I cannot really see why it was deleted.  My comments above were meant as support and encouragement.  I would be delighted for you or others to expand the section on Merton sport, and while clearly pool is not a traditional sport like soccer or rowing, the inclusion of bar games in organized inter-college competitions marks a significant feature of modern Oxford student life and surely deserves proper encyclopedic treatment.


 * My only suggestion is that you follow the WP style guidelines where appropriate and provide proper verifiable references such as newspaper reports or reliable web sources (that preferably won't disappear in six months time when the person who runs the site leaves Oxford). If you do this then your contributions will surely be valued.  Thruston 22:55, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I deleted the material; it was in the style of student newspaper, and gave no source or citation. I'm a little surprised that Thruston can't see why I deleted it. The second addition was better with regard to style, but still gave no source or citation. Even when a citation is given, this doesn't belong at the start of the article; while other colleges might appreciate Merton being defined largely in terms of its undergraduates' success at pool, I'd be surprised if most of its own members would, and I don't think that Wikipedia should go along with it.

Incidentally, the comparison with rowing is peculiar to anyone who knows how fierce the competition is in that sport, and how much less fierce it is in pool. --Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 10:40, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate the feedback, guys. I've never made a change to an article before, so I was always going to make a few mistakes! I now have a source and citation for the achievements of the pool team. Mel, I don't understand your comment about my addition being at the start of the article; I placed it towards the end in the middle of the Sports section.

Also, your assertion that rowing is fiercely competitive is wholly correct. But, with all due respect, I suspect that you do not fully appreciate the level at which college pool is played these days. Members of the first team have played and beaten England internationals. The team practice daily for longer than any rowing crew. We have competed at the highest level for around 8 years now and I think this deserves some kind of recognition.

Ben user:mert1444

Vice-President (Women) Information
I've deleted the line that states Jennifer Hoogerwurf-McComb's election as VP-Women alongside Alan's as OUSU President. VP-Women is a secreterial role only contested by women and the actual Vice-President is a separate role. Furthermore, her election was uncontested. I think Alan's election is worthy of inclusion, the former less so. What does everyone else think?

Ben user:mert1444 15:37, 02/04/06

There is no "actual Vice-President" of OUSU and VP (Women) is certainly not a "secretarial role". See the OUSU constitution for exact details of sabbatical roles. The position is open only to women, but that doesn't stop it from being a significant event in Merton's political history that there will be two Mertonians on the student union sabbatical team (out of seven) for 2006-2007, especially as the article claims that otherwise the college isn't particularly political 129.67.2.230oxfordfemme

One might remark that, until the admission of women to the University, all of the positions so meticulously recorded on various Wikipedia pages and in histories of Oxford were "only contested by" men: does that mean we should delete them as insignificant? I think not. --Antisyzygy 14:32, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Armorial Bearings
The shield shown on the page does not correspond to the blazon of the arms of Merton College: Argent, on a saltire gules an escallop or, impaling Or, three chevronels party per pale, the first and third azure and gules, the second gules and azure. It's also referred to as a "crest", which it is not.
 * No it does not, but none the less it is the usual shield/arms/crest/whatever-you-are-supposed-to-call-it, and corresponds I think to the right hand half of your heraldic description above (as any fule kno). Thruston 14:37, 24 August 2006 (UTC)


 * (and please sign comments here with ~ )

MCR Info?
There have been attempts to update the Merton MCR (graduate student) info (i.e. update the # of graduates and add the name of the MCR President in addition to the JCR President), but these edits are rejected. What needs to be done differently?

81.153.169.152 14:23, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * At present the infobox will not display MCR president if entered into the infobox as per this edit - I'll look into this, as for number changes - noting a source that can be referenced should do the trick. --Alf melmac 20:02, 13 April 2006 (UTC)


 * There's been recent discussion about removing the JCR President line from the infobox (as too unimportant and ephemeral), so it's very unlikely that the MCR Presidents will be added I'd ahve thought. --Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 08:41, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

It's worth noting that the WP entry for the Oxford Union includes current Junior postholders, even though these change on a termly basis; so there is an Oxford-oriented precedent against the argument from ephemerality. --Antisyzygy 14:42, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 15:22, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Film location
Merton has been used as a location in the following; Inspector Morse episodes "The Service of all the Dead" (front and Mob quads), "The Infernal Serpent" (Patey's and Fellows' Garden). Films: Oscar and Lucinda (1996), T. S. Eliot's wedding in Tom & Viv (1994) and Black Beauty (1994) — Leonard, Bill, The Oxford of Inspector Morse Location Guides, Oxford (2004) pp.101 and 170 ISBN 0-9547671-1-X --Alf melmac 23:34, 22 December 2006 (UTC)  And the episode of "Lewis" broadcast on 25 Feb. 2007 --Antisyzygy 09:59, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Royalist???
Merton did not have Royalist sympathies, it was the only college to side with Parliament during the Civil War. The University as a whole was pro-Royalist (see http://www.oxfordcity.co.uk/info/civil_war.html)which is why Charles moved there. The fellows had to flee to London, the Parliamentarian stronghold, as a result. Tim W 129.67.158.52 23:54, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Grace
As well as being said at the 'other place' (should that phrase be used?), the same grace (both pre- and postprandial) is certainly said at Brasenose, Oxford, if not at other Oxford colleges. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.67.137.201 (talk) 21:33, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I think it's reasonable to assume that "the other place" is not an appropriate encyclopaedic name for Cambridge University, so I've taken the liberty of changing it. Jfofnian (talk) 19:51, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

John Wycliffe
Did John Wycliffe actually graduate from Merton? I see that he is listed both in the main Merton College article and in the alumni article, but there is not a single mention of Merton in the John Wycliffe article. Epi100 (talk) 14:07, 23 February 2014 (UTC)