Talk:Mescaline/Archives/2020

Pharmacology
Can someone please post the pharmacology of mescaline? The information has been incredibly hard to find. I am looking for specific drug - receptor interactions. Primary literature references are preferred.


 * Done and done -- check the "Method of Action" section that I added. Jkoebel 00:37, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

The exact mechanism of action for mescaline is unknown.

I know it says here on Wikipedia that it attaches itself to the 5HT2a receptors but that is wrong and someone needs to change that! Mescaline is a phenethylamine and has a similar carbon skeleton to Dopamine and norepinephrine Now I'm not a pharmacologists but even i know that you cant have a phenethylamine attach itself to a receptor that is meant for tryptamines only!

ill give you an example: is it possible to use the key from you Honda Civic to start your Chevy Silverado? of course not... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Willyjones7 (talk • contribs) 02:13, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Of course it attaches itself to 5HT2a. Where did you get the information that phenetylamines can't do that? As you said, you are no pharmacologist, so why are you even talking about shit you clearly no nothing about (your "practical" example is proof you really know nothing about the subject) 93.103.78.229 (talk) 12:37, 20 December 2014 (UTC)profo 2014


 * No, you're an idiot. C6541 (T↔C)  08:39, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually I'm quite sure 5HT-2a is the correct receptor as well as a host of others. This has been confirmed by radio-labeling. I don't have a source but most psychedelic drugs do interact with the 5HT-2a receptor in some way. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.47.202.208 (talk) 19:34, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Side Effects
The list of side effects is not displayed in an unbaised and objective format. It might be a useful guideline for recreational drug users but is not appropriate for an encyclopedia artical. The side effects shouldn't be catogorized under subjective terms such as 'positive' or 'negative'. I am removing the list and suggest that it be replaced with a detailed list with cited sources. CaverousOne 03:15, 21 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree that categorizing side effects as 'positive' or 'negative' is not NPOV, especially since the supposed "positive" side effects (e.g. "open-eye visuals", euphoria, etc) would definitely not be positive in all circumstances (such as when operating heavy machinery, for example). As a compromise until somebody cleans up the page, I have removed just the 'positive', 'neutral', and 'negative' headings, and left the content intact. -- Wonderstruck 02:14, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * In psychological terms (i.e. in the description of schizophrenia), "positive" tends to refer to things not normally present which are gained, for instance, hallucinations. "Negative" would refer to things normally present which are lost, for instance, executive functioning, edge perception (due to inhibited neurons in, IIRC, the visual cortex), loss of grooming behavior in cats, etc. Positive/Negative certainly can be NPOV, but using positive/negative for good/bad isn't so hot. Jkoebel 00:37, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Could anyone possibly elaborate on the liver toxicity of mescaline? I have read in the book by Stanislav Grof called The Adventure of Self-Discovery that 1000 mcg of the mescaline can be toxic, although it is indigestible in the form of cactus (due to the vomitting reaction of the body to the substance). HCLivess 13:40, 4 May 2007 (CET)

Carlos and the Cactus
I think it's problematic to have him mentioned as a famous user, seeing how many people discredit the truthfulness of his writings, going to the extent of doubting if he has ever taken the drugs described in his books. Some claim that people who have known him personally have stated that "he hated drugs". Unless objections arise, I will remove him from the list in the near future. Kind regards, --Twisturbed Tachyon 01:29, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Famous users
From the article, the following do not have sufficient citation, either here or in their respective articles, to support their user of mescaline. Please provide sufficient evidence, preferably in the respective articles, and then re-add the individual to the main article here.--chris.lawson 21:59, 25 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Syd Barrett
 * Jack Kerouac
 * Henri Michaux -- see citation in body of article as of 31 October 2005.
 * Jim Morrison
 * "SB: Do you have other books in mind for the future? M (Ray Manzarek): Yes. A road story in which three (University of California-Los Angles) students on spring break go out to the desert in Arizona to search out peyote. And they find it. " milwaukee channel news
 * "I had read all about Terence Stamp's and Jim Morrison's frightening experiences with the trippy cactus plant in their respective biographies" the gaurdian
 * ""After he ventured to the desert looking for Peyote and came back, what did he say happened? Peyote opens the Doors of Perception . It takes you to states beyond yourself and your narrow little way of looking at the Universe Jim was a seeier after wisdom and a shaman We were all seeking enlightenment.  Aren' you?" interview with ray manzarek
 * is that enough? none of it is real concrete, but evidence suggests he did, and apparently its in his biography.  won't add it w/o approval.  more searching to occur in the near future.  --Heah (talk) 01:37, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Robert Del Naja
 * Hunter S. Thompson -- I'm fairly certain HST mentioned this in interviews on occasion. Don't have a source right now, though.--chris.lawson 21:59, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
 * "In the last month two new Thompson titles have hit shelves. The first, Screwjack, isn't even really a book, coming in at fifty-nine pages, with rather large print. It begins with a piece written during Thompson's first encounter with mescaline ("Mescalito" is also reprinted in Songs of the Doomed), which would become his drug of choice, and it only gets less understandable from there" spike magazine
 * "PLAYBOY: What do you like best? THOMPSON: Probably mescaline and mushrooms: That's a genuine high. It's not just an up -- you know, like speed, which is really just a motor high. When you get into psychedelics like mescaline and mushrooms, it's a very clear kind of high, an interior high." interview in playboy
 * "Hunter was subsequently assigned by Sports Illustrated to go to Las Vegas and cover something called the Mint 400 motorcycle race. He took along an associate, Oscar Zeta Acosta, a 250-pound Chicano legal-aid lawyer. They rented a car for the trip, and used Hunter's expense money from the magazine to stock its trunk with, as he later wrote, "two bags of grass, 75 pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, and a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers ... and also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of Budweiser, a pint of raw ether, and two dozen amyls."" Kurt Loder talking about his death
 * --Heah (talk) 23:40, 22 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Carlos Santana
 * "At the Woodstock festival, Carlos Santana takes mescaline, assuming, wrongly, that he will have plenty of time to come down before he has to play his set. “It was pretty scary,” he will later tell Blender. “Especially when the neck of your guitar is dancing like a snake.” " interview in blender]
 * "I can tell that when I open my mouth people are afraid, because their sense of right and wrong is still in a little box. But I'm comfortable with my existence, and the things that I did learn from mescaline and LSD, I don't regret one trip. I learned so much from each one--as far as all is one, to feel someone else's pain, to feel connectedness" interview with santana]
 * --Heah (talk) 23:47, 22 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Allen Ginsberg
 * Alexander Shulgin
 * Christopher Mayhew
 * Jean Paul Sartre
 * I saw this and was going to revert it but there is mention of Sartre's mescaline use in his article. of course, that isn't cited either- it just says something along the lines of "historical records show . . ."  and it isn't exactly backed up with citations.  so while i didn't revert i have no objection to sartre being cut out.--Heah (talk) 05:12, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Generally amphetamine is mentioned.Constanz - Talk 10:21, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Lewis Black
 * Wrote that he took mescaline before he took his GREs in the book Nothing's Sacred.

Estonian psychiatrist and writer Vaino Vahing depicted using this drug in his 1970s Diary, now published. Don't remember whether he himself 'tried' the drug or recalled a colleague.Constanz - Talk 10:21, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Warning
Someone posted this warning on the page: "Mescaline can be a scary experience if you are not ready for it. Be sure, before you try it, that you research it well. Although negative long or short term effects or not probable, make sure you know your own body before ingesting any drug, including Mescaline."

Mescaline can cause negative long term effects such as Hallucinogen Persisting Perceptual Disdorder. Also known as HPPD.

I can see that there might be some point in putting some kind of warning there, but this one is certainly not phrased in encyclopedia style, and since I have no experience with other Wikipedia drug and medication pages, I moved it here. Jeremy J. Shapiro 02:34, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Use in movies?
Isn't this "Use in movies" section somewhat inane and useless? Would anyone object to removing this section as it doesn't offer any relevant information about mescaline? Wowbobwow12 17:58, 14 April 2006.
 * I, for one, would not object . . . --He:ah? 00:22, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Quotes
Nice quotes, but who the hell are Neo and Choi? --Big gun 22:18, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Neo, played by Keanu Reeves, is the main character in the Matrix Trilogy. I am not sure who Choi is.

Choi is the dude that replys: Yeah all the time... It's called mescaline, it's the only way to fly. (or something thereof...) 222.155.178.118 04:11, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Chemistry
Hi, I'm new to wikipedia, but I study chemistry & two years ago for an assignment I made a (small) presentation on the chemical aspects of mescaline & I have 1 or 2 (historically innovating) synthesis of mescaline which i could post. As a new user - not sure what to do next snils 2:14, 16 August 2006 (CET)


 * Hi snils, you could add a short paragraph to the article, maybe with a synthesis scheme, and/or add the respective links to external sites. In general, Wikipedia does not allow detailed synthesis instructions in articles. Cacycle 04:20, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * May-be adding the synthesis here.Constanz - Talk 10:21, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Famous Users Section
The Famous Users section of this page really doesn't contribute any useful information about the chemical mescaline. I was hoping the people who edit this page and are knowledgeable about famous users might help me move this information to the Psychedelics in popular culture page, where it seems it would be better located than on a page that should be solely about the chemical. As long as no one has any strong objections I'll start moving this section in a few days. Wowbobwow12 14:52, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I would argue that there's a difference between who the drug has influenced and where it has been referenced. By giving a list of notable people who've used it, we provide a bit more insight into its effects, the sort of thinking it inspires. -Sammy D. 132.170.53.75 20:36, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with you regarding the famous users, however I think mescaline's appearance or mention in films should be in the Psychedelics in popular culture page in the same way that music and film appearance of other drugs are listed on that page. Wowbobwow12 18:46, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

It just occurred to me that the famous users section in this article does have an appropriate page for this information: List of notable people who have taken psychedelic drugs. This move seems especially appropriate for the reason that no other drug pages have a list of famous users section (for example the LSD or psilocybin articles). What say you editing community? Wowbobwow12 04:01, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I moved the Famous users section to the List of notable people who have taken psychedelic drugs article. The following:


 * Anton Malinsky
 * Robert Del Naja
 * Jean-Paul Sartre
 * Antonin Artaud
 * Sébastien Branconnier
 * Don Henley, Glenn Frey, Joe Walsh and Don Felder from The Eagles.
 * Helen Reddy, singer, actress, and feminist activist

had no sources, so if you have one please add the user and the citation to the notable people article. Wowbobwow12 18:00, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

# Temporary splitting/destruction of ego
I removed "# Temporary splitting/destruction of ego" from the side effects list, as it in no way is an objective medical or scientific term; furthermore, it is incredibly ambiguous and its meaning subjective. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.40.62.45 (talk) 08:59, 24 December 2006 (UTC).


 * Although not medical, per se, "loss of ego" (a better way of phrasing it) is actually an accepted definition in the psychological community for a phenomenon described by many phychedelic users and schizophrenics. It is ambiguous and subjective because it is a description of a psychological phenomenon which researchers can only be aware of second-hand.  However, it is the term that has come to be used to describe the experience of feeling "outside yourself", even your own thoughts, reported by countless psychedelic users.  Sage1987 14:02, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Hans-Lukas Tuebe book
I removed the Hans-Lukas Teube reference because it doesn't belong on this page. Perhaps it could go on the List of notable people who have taken psychedelic drugs article? I'm not sure to what other article it might belong. Wowbobwow12 19:30, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Where are the references???
This page has NO references. There need to be at least a few. I realize that there's a problem accessing medical articles written when mescaline was first being researched, but someone must have a library of information they could utilize. Also, when an article is severely lacking in references, like this one, it's acceptable to cite not-so-reliable sources like Erowid or the DEA... at least it's not OR, just a bad reference. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jolb (talk • contribs) 06:21, 15 February 2007 (UTC).


 * Edited out, apparently. The version I was last editing had a number of references to journals, etc. Jkoebel (talk) 04:06, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

HPPD
I removed Hallucinogen persisting perception disorder (HPPD) from the list of side-effects. The authors of the only comprehensive study conducted on peyote, and by extention mescaline, (reported by Wired Magazine here ) do not report observing persisting symptoms. In fact, as mentioned in the Wired report, they confirm that they have never observed such an effect from peyote (whose active ingredient is mecaline). Deranged bulbasaur 09:33, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Effects
I've removed the following passage from the article:

Someone please find a source for this. Substantial claims require substantial evidence. &#9775; Zenwhat (talk) 18:13, 20 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I do not see any controversial issue in this passage that would require the removal from the article. Adding sources is a good thing, but we should not remove non-controversial content just because there is no source. If you cannot verify an issue by googling for it, then simply add a tag right after the issue. In any case, please be more specific about your concerns. Сасусlе 13:30, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I have removed the following since it was speculative and contradictory to the Diaz text:

See Buckholtz et al, 1990 for more info. --1000Faces (talk) 07:07, 7 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The wording is somewhat crude and long-winded, but not wrong. Please be more specific about your objections, otherwise I will put both removed passages back into the article. Сасусlе 13:06, 7 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I wrote parts of those passages, I'll go back and find my sources and edit and re-post. If no updates on Discussion after I do so, I'll merge back into the main article. Jkoebel (talk) 04:03, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

12 hour effects
i have used mescaline before and i have heard people speak of twelve hour effects. in my expieriences (twice) i endured a much longer trip. my first trip lasted 5 days with a strong reflection on the following months(my second only 24 hours). some one also claimed it doesn't create kalidescope like visuals. i expierienced more visual and audiotorial hallucinations then most of my high dose lsd trips. now of course its possible i didn't actually recieve mescaline, (as with many drugs) but i trust my source greatly due to their long term expierience with the drug and the general area of entheogenic hallucinogens. i have met few and far between people who have done mesc and many of which i doubt their credibility. if any one here has ingested mescaline i would like to read about their encounters. Flashthemessage (talk) 10:31, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
 * This sounds more like one of the long acting drugs such as bromo-DragonFLY or DOI. Cacycle (talk) 12:33, 15 May 2008 (UTC)


 * It doesn't matter because Wikipedia articles may not contain Original Research. Uberloofah (talk) 07:33, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

General references
Is the general references section really needed? It seems like a list form of external links piling up any website that mentions mescaline. I'm going to remove it, feel free to revert if you can convert them into references or care to weed out the useful from useless. WP doesn't need 10 (or however many) links telling us mescaline is also know as [list of street terms]. If you revert for any reason I would appreciate it if you explained (here). Thanks.--Astavats (talk) 20:22, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Convention on Psychotropic Substances
In the wikipedia article about Ayahuasca I found the following:


 * Internationally, DMT is a Schedule I drug under the Convention on Psychotropic Substances. The Commentary on the Convention on Psychotropic Substances notes, however, that the plant itself is excluded from international control:[18]


 * The cultivation of plants from which psychotropic substances are obtained is not controlled by the Vienna Convention. . . . Neither the crown (fruit, mescal button) of the Peyote cactus nor the roots of the plant Mimosa hostilis nor Psilocybe mushrooms themselves are included in Schedule 1, but only their respective principles, mescaline, DMT and psilocin.


 * A fax from the Secretary of the International Narcotics Control Board to the Netherlands Ministry of Public Health sent in 2001 goes on to state that "Consequently, preparations (e.g.decoctions) made of these plants, including ayahuasca, are not under international control and, therefore, not subject to any of the articles of the 1971 Convention."[19]


 * It seems that the Convention applies to plants and mushrooms containing psilocibin and mescaline, too. Therefore I think that the text about Mescaline should be updated not to confuse people. If that matters, personally I don't take any of these, but I favor legalization and/or decriminalization of the "soft" controlled substances (including Marijuana). Critto (talk) 23:11, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Pregnancy Category
Previously the infobox said mescaline was in Pregnancy Category X in both the US and Australia. Mescaline is in Category C in the US (Briggs, Freeman, Yaffe, 2008), and I have corrected this. I can't find any mention that mescaline is in Category X in Australia, so I have removed this until someone can provide a citation. Tova Hella (talk) 14:03, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Chemical Name?
I noticed the given name is 2-(3,4,5-trimethoxyphenyl)ethanamine. The problem is, the phenyl group is benzene without a hydrogen, whereas this is missing 4 hydrogens. Shouldn't it just be 2-(3,4,5-trimethoxybenzene)ethanamine, or am I missing something?
 * When it says ”phenyl”, it may miss more than one hydrogen atom. Also, it has to do with prefixes and suffixes. In this case, the amine group is the primary functional group, and so ”amine” gets the suffix form. And because of the priority rules, ”benzene” takes the prefix form which is phenyl. Nirmos (talk) 05:36, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Cubist Manifesto?
After some deliberation I will remove this piece of text:

Mescaline may have played a part in the development of the Cubist school of abstract art, when George Braque and Pablo Picasso published the "Cubist Manifesto" they described design paradigms which were similar to visual experiences induced by mescaline and other rare drugs known to the South American Islanders.

The term "Cubist Manifesto" was introduced two years ago by an anonymous editor, but:


 * Braque and Picasso never wrote a "Cubist Manifesto" and never put down any "design paradigms". They in fact hardly explained anything about Cubism.
 * It is a vague claim ("may have played a part") with no real evidence. Similarity does not prove causality.

Albert Gleizes, Jean Metzinger and others tried to write theoretical foundations for Cubism after the event. Gleizes and Metzinger wrote "Du Cubisme" ("about Cubism"), which sometimes is dubbed "a Cubist Manifesto", but this was November 1912, when Cubism was well on its way. Braque in fact distanced himself from this attempt by others to define any theoretical foundations or boundaries of Cubism.
 * Mescaline is not mentioned in the articles on Cubism, Picasso and Braque. There is no evidence at all Mescaline played a role in the creation of Cubism by Braque and Picasso.

I can not verify the source mentioned, but I think someone got confused. I might add that Huxley wrote that "Mescalin raises all colours to a higher power" whereas Cubism used neutral colours bordering on monochrome. Superp (talk) 12:55, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Etymology of the word "mescaline."
What is it? My wild guess is that it derives from some kind of native North American name (mescal is a kind of liquor with a name deriving from Nahuatl), but obviously I can't prove this. What is the origin of the term? Lockesdonkey (talk) 14:09, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It derives from "mexcalli" the Nahuatl word for agaves. An alcoholic beverage made from such was termed "mescal". When Europeans heard about these cactus buttons giving an intoxicating effect, they assumed this must be something similar, and so refered to them as "mescal buttons". When the actual active constituent was isolated, it seemed natural to term it mescaline. --Pontificalibus (talk) 16:01, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Do you have a source for that, so we can put it into the article? Lockesdonkey (talk) 19:09, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

the lead picture.
The spinning molocules? Its all screwy. As the thing turns, it leaves a "trail" behind it until the gif restarts. This is very weird, because the picture on its main page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mescaline_27feb.gif) does NOT have that problem.

I have no idea how to possibly undo this (or i would have,) so I hope someone else does! 74.132.249.206 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:37, 6 October 2011 (UTC).


 * I can confirm this odd behavior of the Gif image, but I also don't know why does it happen. --KDesk (talk) 02:52, 6 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Could it be because it's slightly downsized? The original sized one isn't "noisy" and doesn't have a trail. --Abderrahman (talk) 22:10, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

January 2012
I've added the tag

There are lots of ideas here in the talk that could actually be in the article (but why aren't they?)

Here's a short list of the essential things missing or need expansion:


 * The expansion of the effects section (Physical, Psychological, Sensory)
 * Needs "Potential uses" section
 * Needs "Adverse effects" section
 * Needs "Dosage" section
 * Needs "Chemistry & structure" section
 * Needs a rewrite and organization in the "Legality" section
 * I feel like the "Biosynthesis" section needs expansion and more detailing and examples of such "synthesizers"
 * Needs "Production" section (in lab)
 * Needs "Notable users" section & "Mescaline in popular culture" (media, times & places of spread use... etc)

I think that LSD is a good example of what this article should look like

--Abderrahman (talk) 22:02, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

LD 50
The LD50 of mescaline listed here (212 mg/kg i.p. (mice), 132 mg/kg i.p. (rats), and 328 mg/kg i.p. (guinea pigs).) is not cited and as such i find it controversial. I have found different values in articles.

93.103.78.229 (talk) 13:20, 20 December 2014 (UTC)profo

a section on safety needed?
a section on safety needed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.33.169.165 (talk) 19:19, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

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1950s textbook, move from article
A medical handbook Farmakologia from 1950 mentions trials of mescaline (in the form of mescaline sulphate, the dose being 200 mg) as a medication against schizophrenia but provides no further details.

May have use for history. Not for medical uses. Sizeofint (talk) 02:16, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

untitled
Under the legal status this article claims that dried cactus is classified as a class a drug in the uk. This is not true - dried cactus is unclasssified and can be bought legally from a number of specialist retailers. I will ammend this as it is a serious innacuracy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.43.230.2 (talk) 11:26, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the section on Native American religious drug use should be reworded. It currently suggests that the usage continues today or that ALL Native American religious practices use drugs. As well the current statement is not cited. I am not an expert on Native American religions and do not feel comfortable editing the section myself. 70.52.170.106 03:15, 22 January 2007 (UTC)M. Paterson

Small question; why mention the salt (3,4,5-trimethoxyphenethylamine hydrochloride)? I'm no chemist, but aren't there more salts that would be active in exactly the same manner? Or is this the common version of synthetic (or extracted) mescaline? In that case, maybe it should be mentioned?


 * Mescaline isolation almost always requires an acid-base extraction, because mescaline is an alkaloid. The type of acid used in the extraction process determines the type of salt. If one were to use hydrochloric acid, it should form a hydrochloride salt (mescaline hydrochloride). If one were to use citric acid, it should form a citrate salt (mescaline citrate). Hydrochloric acid is commonly used for several reasons, one being that it is an exceptionally strong acid requiring small amounts to create a significant pH change. It would be reasonable to assume that the hydrochloride salt is the most common form of mescaline.

I've heard of mescaline sulfate being very common as well.


 * Also mescaline citrate, several documents have mentioned that if produced for consumption (obviously, illegal) this is the best way to do it because citric acid is safe to ingest. Dr. Shulgin suggests that this may even be a better approach than some other methods: "My gut feeling is that there may be quite a bit of alkaloid still in the xylene [used in the extraction process], and maybe a couple of extracts...would be useful" due to the safe nature of this particular acid. Granted, you'd have lots of citric acid in the end product changing the dosing characteristics (and possibly requiring the ingestion of Tums simultaneously) but it would be higher yield. Jkoebel 00:37, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone have a structural picture of the salt form? (any salt would do.) Jkoebel 00:49, 30 April 2007 (UTC)