Talk:Meshuggah/Archive 1

Overall
Shouldn't the article refrain from subjective tendencies like calling their lyrics intelligent? HelgeTaksdal 15:37, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I just added, I agree the article is too laudative, particularly on the subject of lyrics Trou 23:19, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

There Music very much compares with that of tool, regardless of how different the two bands sound, both there lyrics are often based on the inner self and both bands have that certain osoteric feel. There lyrics are very intelligent and to sing with Meshuggah like Jens Kidman does is quite an art. These are some of the Lyrics to the song <> off the Album <>, the song Soul Burn is a prime example of of how Meshuggah think before they create music...

Hi poster, I removed the lyrics you posted seeing as they clutter up the talk page, and please sign using four tildes. Whether or not their music is intelligent is irrelevant as this is an encyclopedic article, and makes no attempts whatsoever to quantize the quality of music. HelgeTaksdal 20:49, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Trivia section
Shouldn't the trivia section be integrated with the other sections instead? HelgeTaksdal 15:19, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

They are Technical post-thrash Metal. I'm not going to change it because I don't use wikipedia a lot, I think that description fits them better then just technical metal or technical thrash metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.56.66.61 (talk • contribs)

I edited the genre from "technical thrash metal" to "technical metal" - with their last 3 records being slower, considered and markedly different to thrash, the thrash label is invalid, and to broadly characterise meshuggah's music as "metal" is more effective. AdamSebWolf

yeah man, thrash metal? Get a clue. Play their album Catch 33 then just see if 'thrash metal' stands up. That thrash metal label isn't going to stick. In fact, putting the band into any genre isn't going to hold much weight, but thrash metal is just wrong. Please find a more suitable 'genre' for this band. In fact, no genre is going to stick, they've already transcended labels. rob

The first two albums have some thrashiness and the last trace of it can be heard in Chaosphere. The rest is groovy stuff. Markendust

So far most of the band pages I've seen have listed members' names in italics. I have continued to do so in my own edits for consistency and for ease of reading (it makes it easier to immediately differentiate the musician's name from his respective dates). If no standard for italicizing / not italicizing member names is in existence, I think we ought to establish one, and I personally feel that the names ought to be italicized.

Nyght 23:17, May 28, 2004 (UTC)

I would like to see some content added regarding the subject matter of their lyrics.

--Lone Isle 04:29, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I added an info box to the page. My next goal is to create a Meshuggah stubb (maybe), and to add an article for the None ep. I am posting this to ask if someone could help me out with getting pages of the other members started. Thank you. Sandro67 00:56, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Swedish Meaning for Meshuggah
You may want to check the meaning of meshuggah in a Swedish context. It may mean "You Idiot" is Swedish, And MeshuggANah would be the yiddish word for "crazy." As for the singing style; I have heard it to be a "Cookie Monster" style of singing. Though, I feel it's more of a scream than a growl, this may be the "technical" name for that particular voice. I base that observation off of the latest releases, for I have not heard any off the first few albums.
 * There is no Swedish meaning of that word. IIRC, one of the members (maybe Jens Kidman?) leafed through an American slang dictionary and stumbled upon that particular word back in the day.


 * Some people have no idea what Cookie Monster vocals actually are.


 * Jens sounds like a really pissed off Swedish James Hetfield instead of a death growler. I've never heard Jens do any sort of death growl.

There are several ways of spelling "Meshuggah" in yiddish, "Meshugganah" is one, "Meshuggah" another, and other ways I've heard of are "Meshugge" or "Meshuggina"

--KronKron 22:12, 4 November 2005 (UTC)


 * From a grammar point of view, I believe meshuggah is the adjective "crazy", while "meshugganah" is the noun "a crazy person". --Rpresser 23:00, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to add that the use of programmed drums on Catch 33 was mostly because of the very limited time Nuclear Blast (their record label) gave them to finish the album. Usually, they first program the drums using the drumkit from hell, then if it sounds good Tomas Haake learns them and records them.

I read that it was because the arrangements and riffs were ever changing HelgeTaksdal 15:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Commentary and corrections
I removed the following line:


 * For example, the starting riff of Neurotica is created in the following signatures: 15/16 + 15/16 + 11/16 + 4/16, which all adds up to a standard 4/4 bar.

since the calculation is way off and the example is not factual.

Also there is a difference between polyrhythm and polymeter: Meshuggah's music is considerably more of the polymetric nature. I'm rewriting this partially to reflect the changes. ( SirWoland 4 July 2005 18:00 (UTC) )

Changed the paragraph in the trivia section about the New Millenium Cyanide Christ video. It is on the CD Rare Trax, along with a live video of Elastic in Umea, which is amazing to see them perform!

Tunings?
If anyone knows what guitar and bass tunings they use, it would be a nice addition to the style section.--Lf1033 05:17, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Someone has since added the bit about the 8-string guitars making the bass player useless (which I had wondered about). Does this mean he isn't a member of the band anymore? It would still be nice to see their current tuning(s). And prior to this era, what tuning did the bassist use? Was he able to play a full octave below the guitars?--Lf1033 19:38, 14 November 2006 (UTC)


 * They use B flat. The low string on their 8-strings guitars is F. 65.189.210.173 14:03, 24 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The bass is in the same octave as the guitars. It's just there to provide a somewhat different timbre and thicken up the sound. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.99.32.7 (talk) 19:17, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Genres
I've noticed a few additions under "Genre(s)" in the infobox and while I can somewhat accept the inclusion of 'industrial metal' and that of 'progressive metal', I wish to contest the inclusion of 'alternative metal' and 'math metal', regardless of the references provided, which I am also contesting as being factually inaccurate. While alternative metal is increasingly an umbrella term for "heavier" bands that are nevertheless accessible to the mainstream, 'math metal', regardless of its association with technicality, is in fact a subgenre of metalcore music, which Meshuggah has never been connected to.

I cannot think of even a single Meshuggah song that could be referred to as alternative metal, and "tech metal" more than adequately covers the technicality of Meshuggah without requiring a reference to the hardcore genre, which 'math metal' is an offshoot of.

Based on the above I am removing the two genres from the list. Inflammator 07:24, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I think 'math metal' is an adequate label for Meshuggah's music, as it can be viewed as more of a fusion of math rock's complex tendencies with metal music, rather than a specific ofshoot of the hardcore genre. Where Dillinger Escape Plan are 'mathcore', Meshuggah are 'math metal'C-treanor 19:51, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I see where you are coming from. My comment was based on the fact that the terms 'mathcore' and 'math metal' were implied to refer to the same genre in the 'mathcore' article. I have edited the mathcore article to disambiguate this dual reference. For now, I've redirected 'math metal' to the 'technical metal' page, where I've put in a paragraph referring to the term. Unless anyone feels otherwise, I think it can be added to the list of genres now. Inflammator 11:30, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Seeing as how both, the Technical metal and Math metal links seem to have been redirected to the Progressive metal article, I've removed the math and replaced 'technical' with 'progressive' for now. I have also added avant-garde metal under the genres. If any of this is disputed, discussion is welcome. Inflammator 21:19, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I really have to insist on labeling them as technical post-thrash. They aint thrash for sure. --Pasajero 16:23, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to add Technical death metal to the article.. This is a reliable source:. I'll wait and see if anyone has (reasonable) objections. Similar bands like Coprofago, and others have often been labeled technical death metal Emmaneul (Talk) 22:58, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

It has been a while since I’ve posted the above and there are still no objections so I’ll add technical death metal. Because tech metal is being redirected to progressive metal I think the tech metal link is not very useful, I’m removing it. Emmaneul (Talk) 13:46, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

—Yes, progressive metal isn't the right tag for this band. I'm removing it.Progrocker7 18:04, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I've re-added progressive as a suffix to groove metal. Jazz fusion, complex compositional structures, odd time signatures, long songs and concept albums can all be seen in Meshuggah's output. Certainly groove metal on its own is not sufficient. I don't think technical death metal is correct seeing as they are not actually a death metal band, but I would agree that they have some musical traits of tech death in their older albums. Inflammator 13:15, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Unknown sixth album
Why put it in the discography? That's useless, isn't it? I tried to look up some info on the new album but I couldn't find anything. I've searched their website/forum, google, blabbermouth. Has it been announced? When, where? Emmaneul (Talk) 17:51, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I found some information on Nuclear Blast's site: http://www.nuclearblast.de/band_showa.php?action=news&artist=33&newsid=2108&show=1 It still isn't clear when it's going to be released (hence the last edit on the article page). I think it's better to remove the non-existent album from the list. Emmaneul (Talk) 18:20, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Avant-garde metal
I ca'nt name any track by these guys which, sounds like avantgarde. I removed avantgarde link from the genres. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.0.131 (talk) 14:03, 25 August 2007


 * I've replaced it. From the Avant-garde metal page:

Nevertheless technically speaking avant-garde metal statistically tends to be characterized by a certain number of common traits such as:

* Some use and research for unconventional arrangements in particular * An emphasis on new timbre and sonorities * Use of some unusual harmony (unusual and frequently dissonant chords, uncommon scales, obsessive and persistent ostinato, polytonality, bimodality and sometimes even atonality) * Use of unconventional vocal or instrumental techniques * Frequent loans from industrial metal, from contemporary classical music (also known as the avant-gardist classical music) and even sometimes from jazz (most particularly free-jazz and/or avant-jazz), experimental rock and occasionally from other different genres.

But also sometimes (just like progressive metal)

* Use of unconventional song structure * Use of unusual rhythm and time signature (even though avant-garde metal isn’t necessarily obsessed by them)


 * It'd actually be harder to pick a Meshuggah song that doesn't demonstrate these qualities! :) Inflammator 13:15, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Doom Metal
I thought, that Meshu often use, partly doom elements, due to the, pressuring heaviness, and use of dynamics of drum-work of Tomas Haake and minimalism of Thordendal's more melodic guitar-work.Following, i will put doom metal under their four other, often used elements, but do not fear that i'm now going to mislabelling, them as such. I search the actual sources, before i going to do it. But, do you guys have thoughts about this? Etos


 * If you have found reliable sources backing up these assumptions, you can put it in the infobox. However, I don't think you will be able to find any (because I don't believe Meshuggah is doom or have explicitly introduced doom elements into their music). And by the way, having genre X elements doesn't make you genre X. Emmaneul (Talk) 18:42, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Genre research
Only research, no conclusions yet...

Metal-Observer (mo)

1991 Contradictions Collapse Review > 6,5/10 - Frodi - (Thrash Metal)

1994 None EP Review > 9/10 - Frodi - (Thrash Metal)

1995 Destroy Erase Improve Review > 9,5/10 - Gabe - (Thrash Metal)

1998 Chaosphere Review > 8/10 - Frodi - (Thrash Metal)

2001 Rare Trax Review > 7/10 - Ralf - (Death Metal)

2002 Nothing Review > 7/10 - Joe - (Death Metal/Thrash Metal)

2004 I EP Review > 9/10 - Frodi - (Progressive Thrash Metal)

http://www.metal-observer.com/articles.php?lid=1&sid=5&a=l&l=M

Metal-Archives (ma)

Technical post-thrash

http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=21

BNR Metal (bnr)

post-thrash

thrash

extreme metal

http://www.bnrmetal.com/groups/mesh.htm

Rockdetector (rd)

Extreme Progressive

Thrash Metal

Experimental

http://www.rockdetector.com/artist,5796.sm

About.com:Heavy Metal (about)

thrash and death metal elements and a lot of experimentation

Technical death metal

http://heavymetal.about.com/od/toppicks/tp/top_swedish.htm

http://heavymetal.about.com/od/toppicks/tp/top_bestof2005.htm

Metal Storm (ms)

Post Thrash metal

Technical Death metal

http://www.metalstorm.ee/bands/band.php?band_id=175&bandname=Meshuggah

PopMatters (pm)

Math metal

Prog metal

http://www.popmatters.com/pm/music/reviews/11105/meshuggah-nothing/

http://www.popmatters.com/music/reviews/m/meshuggah-i.shtml

http://www.popmatters.com/music/reviews/m/meshuggah-catch.shtml

Tartarean Desire (td)

Death metal

http://www.tartareandesire.com/bands/Meshuggah/1035/

All Music (am)

Heavy Metal

Progressive Metal

Scandinavian Metal

Death Metal/ Black Metal

Alternative Metal

http://allmusic.com/cg/amg%2edll?p=amg&sql=11:wvfixq8gld0e~T1

MySpace (my)

Metal / Death Metal / Experimental

www.myspace.com/meshuggah

Last.fm (lm)

death metal  math metal   progressive   progressive metal   technical metal   thrash metal

http://www.last.fm/music/Meshuggah?q=meshuggah

Google searches

http://www.google.nl/search?hl=en&q=meshuggah+thrash.metal about 101,000

http://www.google.nl/search?hl=en&q=meshuggah+death.metal about 280,000

Summary

Thrash metal

mo bnr about lm rd

Post Thrash metal

ma bnr ms

Death metal

mo about ms td am my lm

Technical

ma about ms lm

Progressive

mo pm am lm rd

Experimental

about my rd

Emmaneul (Talk) 15:22, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

The most prominent genres are death metal, followed by thrash metal. Progressive and technical are both popular terms. Emmaneul (Talk) 23:19, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

But, Meshuggah is no way in death metal. They don't have grunting vocalist or guitarist who play the fast "buzzsaw"-riffs at all. Only song what i could consider as death metal is War from Rare Trax, but, that factually does'nt make them death metal. Etos 20:21 9 october 2007 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is not about the editors opinions but about verifiability and a neutral point of view. On wikipedia all information should be sourced, otherwise it is original research. Many (reliable metal) sources state that Meshuggah is death and thrash metal so they are death and thrash metal, even if editor X disagrees. Meshuggah might not be your typical death/thrash metal band but they share a lot of similarities with those genres. Many professional reviewers will agree they are death metal (see sources). Kameejl (Talk) 17:38, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I've changed the genres because of the countless reverts and edits in the genre section. It's now like other articles about bands with disputed genres (Queen (band), Cradle of Filth, System of a Down, etc). Kameejl (Talk) 20:01, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


 * This is pretty well done research and very useful for the article, but it seems like you forgot something. Although all the genres you wrote in the "genre and influences" can be heard in Meshuggah's music, it much simpler to write down that they are an Avant-Garde metal band. This has nothing to do with my opinion, read for examle the definition of Avant-garde metal, or even better just Avant-Garde. Objectively said, Mesuggah is an Avant-garde metal band with thrashy, death sound and sometimes progressive (but much more avant-garde) structures, so if you write down A-GM, it will say enough. If you want sources, find some for yourself.. you'll find more than enough. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lykantrop (talk • contribs) 13:59, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

obZen
On the profile, it says that obZen will be released on 6/11/07. I have to make sure about this date. Does it mean June 11, 2007 or November 6, 2007? June 11 has already passed, and since obZen hasn't been released yet, it definitely wouldn't be released on June 11. November 6 is in two days, and the album, last time I checked, was being released in 2008 sometime. If this album were to be released in two days, there would most likely already be a wikipedia profile for it. I'm going to revert that edit for now. B T C 16:42, 4 November 2007 (Eastern Time Zone)

Technical death/thrash metal
What would be better tag for meshuggah than this. Discuss and vote! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.23.199 (talk) 18:59, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

no, I think it should be as general as possible because tons of genres have been attributed to them (hence the link to the style section). Kameejl (Talk) 20:39, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Is this being written like an encyclopedia article or a speech?
Seriously.

"Frequently, true Meshuggah fans laugh at these people for amusement, or make mostly failed attempts to explain it to them.

For example, the main riff of the song "New Millennium Cyanide Christ," from their 1998 album Chaosphere, follows the first aforementioned blueprint."

That does NOT sound non-objective at all. Mattz1010 (talk) 20:50, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Semicolons
This may be the smallest of things, but sorry for reverting that part. I didn't know semicolons could be used like that. Also, a simple thing like stating they can should of been in the anon's edit summary or even in Kob's. − ₪ÇɨгcaғucɨҲ₪  kaiden  06:15, 10 April 2008 (UTC)