Talk:Messianic Judaism/Archive 1

m essianic vs M essianic
Why does a American Jew who has no interest in religion care to define Messianic Christianity/Judaism? This bias is too prevalent in your article and causes a very non neutral view. I suggest you let someone who is more versed in religion write a accurate article. User:H.Vance

I disagree, there are clearly jewish groups from the time of the maccabees down to the destruction of the second temple that believed that their leader was the messiah. Said leader was certainly not Jesus in most cases, but such groups are properly described as a form of messianic judaism.J.F.Quackenbush


 * You are right. Ignore RK here, who is not qualified to comment on any issue of religion.


 * Please do not misunderstand I totally agree with you. You are saying that these Jewish groups had messianic beliefs, so you point out that one may describe these groups as "messianic Judaism". Perhaps so, but I was referring to the fact that in common useage the phrase "messianic Judasm" has a specific meaning: It refers to 20th century groups, that's all. RK


 * This is the reason that I made the distinction between usage towards matters of antiquity and usage in modern English. I agree with you, most people who say "messianic Judaism" nowadays really mean to say "Christianity". This does not, however, alter the fact that the term has a secondary, and possibly older usage that is not sourced in evangelism.J.F.Quackenbush

Furthermore, historians make a clear distinction between the jewish, aramaic speaking "jesus movement" in judaea and the romanized, greek speaking "christian movement" of paul that took hold in Greece, Turkey, and northern Africa. The former is occasionally referred to as messianic judaism.


 * I was not aware that this was a common useage. RK


 * I don't know how common it is, but I know I've seen it used in reference to the followers of Simon ben Kosiba at the very least.J.F.Quackenbush

I'm certainly open to a different way of stating that first paragraph, but there should be some mention of this simple fact. Furthermore, I think the article as it now stands is a bit to polemical, but that's just my opinion.


 * Could be. I just hope that people note the polemics are not about the beliefs of these groups, but rather about truth-in-advertising concerns. (I.E. I am sure that the Christian groups with these concerns are just as Christian as the messianic Jewish groups. They certainly are not arguing against Christianity.) RK
 * none the less, I'm still not sure it's appropriate in this venue. Then again, I'm new.J.F.Quackenbush

Do they mean Jews for Jesus? m essianic vs M essianic Part 2
The article either has NPOV problems or was written by someone who has no understanding of the difference between Jews for Jesus (an evangelical christian organization) and messianics amongst Judaism. It is a well known fact that some prominent Zionists were messianic in their beliefs. Messianic Jews are not organised as the article suggests and are a common phenomenon amongst the Reform Judaic movement. The reform Jewish support for Israel itself is a messianic practice. Messianics usually keep their beliefs to themselves and interact as usual with whatever communities they belong to in the usual ways. Moreover there are many varying degrees of messianic Jew which is totally ignored by the article if Zionists are at the right then the midway messianics regard John & Jesus as reformistic rabbis and consider their words along with the idea that messiah is a spirit within us unlike people at the extreem left end of the scale (although very few other messianics would consider such as still Jewish in anything but perhaps ethnicity) perhaps approaching in belief the extreeme "Jews for Jesus" who accept all the Christian doctrines and cannot really be considered Jewish. And in fact even non Jews can be messianic if they are active workers for mankind's bright future. This article needs a complete overhaul. Preferably by not by a Christian, nor a mainstream Jew, nor a Jew for Jesus but by a Messianic Jew.


 * "Messianic Judaism" is, in the English language, for better or for worse, in fact, an Evangelical Christian movement. Maybe that isn't the way that it ought to be, in a perfect world (I happen to think it's a good thing), but it is simply so.  Run the google test on "Messianic Judaism", and you will see that you are proposing an overhaul not only of this page, but of 99% of the internet.  Thank God, there is more to the world than the internet; but, it is a good indication of how mistaken you are, about this terminology.  It has been captured by Evangelical Christians, reducing Messianist (non-Christian) Judaism to an appendage.  So rein yourself in, before you undertake a "complete overhaul". Mkmcconn 16:38, 30 Nov 2003 (UTC)


 * I agree with Mkmcconn. RK 01:23, Dec 1, 2003 (UTC)

Actually, when I first found this page I assumed it would be about messianic Judaism, not about Messianic Judaism. It needs to have the disambiguation more clear. The problem is that I don't know if we have a good article on messianic Judaism to send people to. --Zero 00:44, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)


 * Um, what do you mean? I am not familiar with any difference in meaning due only to capitalization. RK 01:23, Dec 1, 2003 (UTC)

This article was originally about Christian Jewish groups; that is, groups that practice Christianity, but aspire to preach to Jews and to gain an ethnically Jewish membership. The goal of these groups is to convert Jews to Christianity. Over time, this article has recently come to include messianic quasi-Christian, quasi-Jewish groups that believe that Jesus was the messiah (which puts them outside the bounds of Judaism as it is known today) yet which also deny that Jesus is God or part of the Trinity (which puts them outside the bounds of Christianity.) This expansion of topic seems reasonable, and I just wish to caution that we make clear the distinctions between these groups. However a new person is confused about the terminology, and seems to think that this article should deal with any form of messianism inside Judaism. That would be very misleading. Traditional rabbinic Judaism does have certain beliefs about a person they call "moschiach", usually translated as "messiah"; others within traditional rabbinic Judaism believe in the coming of a future messianic era. These beliefs are not discussed here; they are discussed in the entry on Jewish eschatology and the Jewish Messiah. Traditional rabbinic Judaism is never called "messianic Judaism". That term is used only for the Christian groups, or the quasi-Christian groups. RK 01:23, Dec 1, 2003 (UTC)

Ok so what word am I to use to describe the kind of Jew I described above? Messianistic Judaism? Or messianic Judaism (small m as an adjective). Personally today is the first time I have heard Messianist but if that is the word being used to describe us these days then so be it. I have no time to check out all the sites with the term Messianic Judaism (actually I am curious about how you know that 90% of them are evangelical sites). Certainly the ones which get the most hits (i.e. the ones at the top of the lists on google) do seem to be more like Jews for Jesus than anything else. However on the later pages I could find references to Rabbi Joshua as nothing more than a teacher and Jewish reformist. I think I noticed that the major difference seems to be in whether they use the protestant bible as "the inspired word of god" or whether they simply critically analyse any and all relevant early christian writings in order to de-fog the situation. Perhaps Evangelicals are attempting to arrest the term for themselves to give a misconception of the term, but the fact is they are just schizmatic Branches of "Jews for Jesus" and are not really Judaic at all. How can anyone be Judaic if they claim that a human messiah is the creator of the Universe? I think it is only fair to NPOV to have a disambiguation page with Messianic and messianic if necessary and mention messianists if that is the correct term and Jews for Jesus on the page and move all relevant info to the relevant pages. Even just last week I was speaking with some friends about messianic jews like the Zionists and none of us had any inkling about these evangelicals you speak of. Such are Jews for Jesus as far as we knew and now I hear that we have to find a new adjective to describe ourselves. I wonder what Webster's has to say about it. Is anyone guilty of changing the use of language here? I shared Zero's confusion.


 * I change I made just now is all I think it needs. There is no doubt that the phrase "Messianic Judaism" has come (esp. in the US) to mean the Jesus types.  My only concern is that the academic literature is prone to use the phrase "messianic Jew" for any Jew with an especially emphasised messianic outlook.  For example the Yemenite Jews pre-1950 are often called "messianic" and the large (large, not tiny as often claimed) group within Chabad that thinks Schneerson is/was the messiah are also called "messianic". By the way, Zestauferov, please sign your comments here so we can keep track of who said what, thanks. --Zero 05:08, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Messianism
Folks, "Messianic Judaism" refers invariably to Christian groups. There may be dozens of other Jewish groups following a different Messiah; but they are not _ever_ called "Messianic Judaism". The religion of the non-Christian groups is called "Judaism", and they are called "messianists", or "followers of ...". There have been dozens of messianist Jewish movements. Where are ANY of them called "Messianic Judaism", other than these modern Christian groups, except (for the moment) on Wikipedia? Certainly, we can mention the other messianic groups; but the normative use of the term is not that generalized reference. It has a more specific reference. Mkmcconn 20:45, 25 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Mkmcconn is obviously correct. Messianic Judaism refers specifically to Christian groups. Lubavitch, or earlier, Sabbateans, are not Messianic Jews, nor are the followers of Bar Kochba 132-135 C.E., Reubeni, Molcho, Luzzatto, or any other historical figure with messianic pretensions. Also, Messianic Judaism is not "within" the Jewish community. It is universally rejected by Jews. Danny 14:42, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC) --- Beseder18 would like to add in reference to Mkmcconn's words above: "Messianic Judaism refers invariably to Christian groups." -- that viewpoint is found among Jewish people who are not Messianic Jews. Just like the early Jewish believers in Yeshua (Jesus) were put out of the synagogue for trusting in Him, current Jews who see Him as the Messiah the prophets predicted are still being excluded from Israel and put out of the synagogue.

The truth is that Jewish believers in Yeshua who identify as "Messianic Jews", for the most part, continue to live a Jewish lifestyle and worship in Jewish space. Messianic Jews (and Messianic Gentiles who join them) celebrate the High Holy Days and Pesach and Shabbat and all the rest while churches and "Christians" barely are aware those days exist. Messianic Jews do NOT want their children to stop identifying as Jewish or being comfortable in Jewish settings. Messianic Jews, for the most part, do not identify as Christians, and the unfortunate insistence on people other than Messianic Jews to describe us as "invariably Christian" is another way that this minority voice in Judaism continues to be discounted. Whether traditional Judaism accepts Messianic Judaism or not,and whether wanted and valued or not, we will continue to identify with the Jewish people and to stand with Israel. The truth is that Messianic Jews ought to be able to write their own description of themselves, rather than be categorized in inaccurate ways with perjorative meanings by fellow Jews who do not share their perspectives. Even within Messianic Judaism, we have disagreements about what it means to be a "Messianic Jew." However,the following statement was affirmed by the Delegates to the 26th Annual UMJC Conference on July 20, 2005. "DEFINING MESSIANIC JUDAISM Basic Statement The Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations (UMJC) envisions Messianic Judaism as a movement of Jewish congregations and groups committed to Yeshua the Messiah that embrace the covenantal responsibility of Jewish life and identity rooted in Torah, expressed in tradition, and renewed and applied in the context of the New Covenant. Messianic Jewish groups may also include those from non-Jewish backgrounds who have a confirmed call to participate fully in the life and destiny of the Jewish people. We are committed to embodying this definition in our constituent congregations and in our shared institutions. Expanded Statement Jewish life is life in a concrete, historical community. Thus, Messianic Jewish groups must be fully part of the Jewish people, sharing its history and its covenantal responsibility as a people chosen by God. At the same time, faith in Yeshua also has a crucial communal dimension. This faith unites the Messianic Jewish community and the Christian Church, which is the assembly of the faithful from the nations who are joined to Israel through the Messiah. Together the Messianic Jewish community and the Christian Church constitute the ekklesia, the one Body of Messiah, a community of Jews and Gentiles who in their ongoing distinction and mutual blessing anticipate the shalom of the world to come. For a Messianic Jewish group 1) to fulfill the covenantal responsibility incumbent upon all Jews, 2) to bear witness to Yeshua within the people of Israel, and 3) to serve as an authentic and effective representative of the Jewish people within the body of Messiah, it must place a priority on integration with the wider Jewish world, while sustaining a vital corporate relationship with the Christian Church. In the Messianic Jewish way of life, we seek to fulfill Israel’s covenantal responsibility embodied in the Torah within a New Covenant context. Messianic Jewish halakhah is rooted in Scripture (Tanakh and the New Covenant writings), which is of unique sanctity and authority. It also draws upon Jewish tradition, especially those practices and concepts that have won near-universal acceptance by devout Jews through the centuries. Furthermore, as is common within Judaism, Messianic Judaism recognizes that halakhah is and must be dynamic, involving the application of the Torah to a wide variety of changing situations and circumstances. Messianic Judaism embraces the fullness of New Covenant realities available through Yeshua, and seeks to express them in forms drawn from Jewish experience and accessible to Jewish people. UMJC Theology Committee; affirmed by delegate vote, July 20, 2005."

http://www.umjc.org/main/docs/Defining Messianic Judaism 2005.pdf

Later, Rabbi Resnik wrote an insightful commentary on the above definition. http://www.umjc.org/main/faq/definition/ResnikCommentary.pdf

Still later, Rabbi Resnik wrote the following addendum which specifically addresses what it means that Messianic Jews calls themselves Jewish and what the context is for that part of our self-definition:

http://www.umjc.org/main/faq/definition/ResnikCommentary.pdf

If part of Wikipedia's aim to to furnish scholarly material which can be verified by non-adherents off-site, I hope that these articles will be helpful.

Please allow adherents of Messianic Judaism to be the ones whose definitions of themselves stand. One of the purposes of an encyclopedia is to correct the slander and misunderstandings that people may have about a group. We know the harm that slander and misunderstandings have brought about in history. Similarly, although our viewpoint is problematic to the larger Jewish community, we nevertheless would like the opportunity (while allowing for other views to state their disagreement further down in the "Critics of the Messianic Movement" part of the site) to publish our own viewpoint about who we are.

If the situation were reversed, you can surely see how you would want the same treatment.

When a larger group insists on the right to perjoratively and without real redress define a smaller group, both groups are diminished.

A compromise could be to let Messianic believers define themselves, according to real documents that Messianic Jewish leaders have thought and talked through at length, stand for the beginning definitions of who we are. After that, in the Critics of the Messianic Movement section, feel free to write your dissenting viewpoint. In the interest of fairness, I think that is the most appropriate way to procede.

Beseder18

Law Suit
"" "Jews for Jesus" filed a suit in a State Supreme Court in Manhattan against a 600-member Council. The Rev. Jack Alford, the executive director of the Council, said the suit "proves the point we were making about their tactics.""


 * What is that "point"? That Jews don't sue, and Protestants do?  This is extremely stupid, and probably doesn't belong here.

Al Mohler
I removed the bit about Al Mohler. As insidious as it may or may not be, it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Messianic Jews consider themselves adherents of Judaism, who accept Jesus as the Messiah. Mohler was talking about converting Jews to Christianity, not to Messianic Judaism--a distinction even many Messianic Jews would make. Put it in an article about Missionary efforts to the Jews, if you want (personally, I don't think it makes the cut), but this isn't the place for it. Danny 14:14, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Obviously Messianic Jews would make a distinction between them and "christians", just about everyone else however understands that converting a Jew to Messianic Judiams amounts to converting him to christianity.- MCHAS

Change "understands" to "agrees" and I'm okay. Just because we disagree with you doesn't mean we're confused... NathanZook 02:21, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the Christians who invented Messianic "judaism" also understand and agree that any converts are actually Christians. That is why they invented the movement. Anyone who doesn't understand that is confused. OpenInfo 13:17, 1 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok, you make that assertion, but what is the actual story about the modern Messianic Judaism? When did it appear and under what circumstances? Fred Bauder 13:51, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
 * As far as them being Christians, mighty strange Christians if they follow Jewish practices. That is a major rejection of some central Christian doctrines which mandate abandonment of traditional practices or at least discourage them. Fred Bauder 13:51, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I used to work at a resort. I will never forget our first kosher customers who made us clean all of our utensils and dishes out of the cabin, then brought in their two sets. Very different energy. Fred Bauder 13:51, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

As the article says, the movement was started by the Church Of England in the 1800's.  The theory was, according to the Evangelical movements, that one only needs to believe in Jesus to be saved. It was obviously very difficult to get Jews to convert (this is why millions of Jews were killed or displaced throughout the middle ages). So, the idea was to make it more palatable for Jews to convert, by using brainwashing to convince them that they could be more Jewish, keep the Jewish customs, and still convert to Christianity.

The modern movement was started in the 1970's.

Even though most groups claim to follow "orthodox" practices, if you actually witness these practices, you will see that other than superficial trappings, they do follow an "abandonment of traditional practices" as you say.

Their "services" consist of singing their own brand of hymns, praising Jesus, wrapped around a few words of Jewish prayer (in some groups, others completely abandon traditional Jewish prayers). They sing a lot of Hebrew songs, but these songs are Messianic in nature, and of their own invention. Most of them claim to keep kosher, but don't.

I've been at many of their functions, and they ALWAYS serve meat and cheese together, usually on the same plate (e.g. coldcuts and sliced cheese on the same platter). This is completely in violation of any Judaism. They claim it is "kosher" according to their rules. 17:09, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Not Judaism but Jews Nonetheless
"most Jews regard them as Christians who have merely adopted the outward and cultural trappings of Judaism". Almost certainly not the case. Almost all Messianic Jews were Jews before they were Messianic, (there being no incentive for a Christian who is not ethnically Jewish to adopt Jewish customs or practice). I'm going to replace it with something which is more correct and I hope acceptable. DJ Clayworth 22:10, 29 Oct 2003 (UTC)


 * The intention of the sentence appears to be that, Messianic Judaism is not considered Jewish by any branch of Judaism (and that is true). "Racial" jewishness is not a factor, in this judgment (there are Buddhists of Jewish ancestry, too. But, Buddhism has nothing to do with Jewishness).  Exactly so - in my irrelevant opinion, unjustly - Christianity is judged by all branches of Judaism to have nothing to do with Jewishness, either, except a long ago and now expired status as a Jewish 'sect'.  On the other issue, it is not true that Christianity + Jewish practice is unattractive to some, or even many, Gentile Christians. Mkmcconn 01:50, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)
 * Many Israelis are atheistic by religion but not discounted as Jews. This is because Jewishness is considered an ethnic identity.  Ergo, it is likewise illogical to deny that people who are Christians by religion but have Jewish ethnicity are Jews.138.130.201.204 04:30, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * You've missed the point; Jews can practice Buddhism and Hinduism too, and many do; but that doesn't turn Buddhism and Hinduism into Judaism. Jayjg (talk) 04:43, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

According to the law of Judaism, if you were born Jewish, but then accepted Jesus, you are no longer Jewish. In many cases, to become Jewish again, you would need to convert.OpenInfo 20:45, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, it's quite the opposite. Jewish law is very clear that a Jew who converts to another faith is still a Jew (though sinning), and does not require conversion when returning to Judaism. Jayjg (talk) 20:48, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

However, I am prety sure they would have to renounce any belief in Jesus before being considered Jewish again. OpenInfo 21:56, 19 January 2006 (UTC)


 * They would have to renounce worship of Jesus before being considered part of the community again, and eligible for various honours (e.g. being called up to the Torah, buried in a Jewish cemetary). They would always be considered Jews. Jayjg (talk) 22:31, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Nazarenes & Ebionites
It seems like such an odd omission to leave out any mention in the first two paragraphs of Ebionites or Nazarenes, that the omission ( purposeful?) should be noted and explained. Wetman 07:28, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Humanistic Judaism
I have changed the part about Reconstructionism accepting the Messianic movement as a valid form of Judaism. That is incorrect. The Reconstructionist school does not accept the Messianic movement, any more than Orthodox Judaism does. A few voices within Reconstructionism accept it - but that's a far cry from saying that Reconstructionism as a whole does. Davidcannon 22:25, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

My mistake, I was basing that on a discussion I had with some Reconstructionists. Their comments seemed to be about what you have termed Notzrim Netzarim messianists and not others. Apparently nothing in the Netzarim belief system goes against Reconstructionist ideas of what Judaism really is. Or even Orthodox Judaism I now discover, whereas Many Reform schools are considered just as Apostate as Messianic Jews. Zestauferov 18:17, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Orthodox Netzarim Beit Din
"The Orthodox Netzarim Beit Din excepted, the Orthodox Beit Din system (the only universally recognised body of Jewish authority)."

does the Orthodox Beit Din system recognize Netzrim Beit Din and if so why? what makes Orthodox Netzarim Beit Din an exception that even reform and reconstructionists do not enjoy?


 * Not as far as I am aware. This article seems highly suspect vis a vis NPOV when it comes to the "Orthodox Netzarim", which, as far as I know, is a tiny and marginal group even within the Messianic movement.  For example, it also appears to denigrate the major counter-Missionary movements, and states that only the "Netzarim Bet Din" has been effective in getting Jews out of Messianic congregations.  Not only is this not documented anywhere I know, but one could obviously argue that moving from some other Messianic congregations to the "Netzarim" congregation is not "getting out". Jayjg 00:03, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Dear 64.107.183.84, please disregard Jayig's comments as he really doesn't know what he is talking about. For a full explanation of why please see Talk:Nazarene Judaism.Zestauferov 06:07, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

i would imagine the only way this movement can "grow" is through missionary work, but isn't that illegal in israel?


 * No, it's not illegal. That's a common misconception.  What is illegal in Israel is to offer financial or material incentives to change one's religion.  Open missionary work is discouraged, and missionaries can have a tough time getting work or visitor permits renewed.  Citizens doing evangelism, however, are free to do so.  Charges have often been brought against messianic groups by their opponents, but have seldom stood up in the courts.  As most Messianics continue to regard themselves as Jews, they seldom change their registration from "Jewish" to "Christian," and therefore those proselytizing them cannot be convicted of offering incentives to "convert," as conversion in Israel is a formal legal process.  Where Messianics do suffer official discrimination is under the Law of Return: the courts have ruled that the right of return guaranteed to all Jews does not apply to Messianics.  Messianics who are physically in Israel as citizens, however, suffer no official persecution, although there is considerable social prejudice and discrimination. David Cannon 09:53, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

The law of return restriction on messianics is because they are considered christians but it does not apply to legitimate Jewish Netzarim who are considered by the legal bodies that matter to be legal Jews.Zestauferov 08:41, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Do you have any evidence that there have been rulings by the Israeli government that the Law of Return applies to "Netzarim"? Jayjg 19:53, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Yes the certification that the Yirimeyahu and his wife openly confessing their beliefs made Aliya to Israel under the law of return. You can purchase a copy here http://www.netzarim.co.il/Mall/NetzShop/NetzShop.htm#Netzarim%20Papers Zestauferov 04:55, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * So I have to buy their book to see their claim that they did so? And in any event, how does the book prove this? Confirmation directly from a government source, particularly one that this is a general policy for "Netzarim", would be vastly more persuasive. Jayjg 14:44, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

No are you visually impaired? Before you get all huffy again, that is not ad-hominem it is a genuine request for info to help me understand why you can never find any of the references I give you on a page. You can buy a copy of the evidence you request precisely look under the papers section. You don't get anymore government source than government issued legal papers. Don't tell me now you actually are going to have the cheek to ask someone to fax you a copy for free. The source is there if you want it in black and white as solid as any traceable ISBN number. If you have any friends in Israeli immigration ask them to check it out for you. Do you realise if anyone gave a book reference it would be acceptable even if the book is untraceable or out of print so that no one can track it down. It is accepted on good faith. Now here you are so irritated by the fact that Netzarim are real Jews and allowed to emigrate to Israel under the Law of return. Why is this? What is so grating that you cannot stand the truth? Why are you in particular more than any of the other people interested in Jews & Judaism on wiki unable to accept the facts? I am interested to know.Zestauferov 15:07, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * As before, I have strongly suggested not using the word "you" in any responses to me; this will help avoid the steady stream of Ad hominems, something which have been used and defended liberally in this Talk: page in the past, with apparently little comprehension of the term. Regarding the points raised, first I am obviously correct that the documents in question will have to be purchased.  Second, the documents in question, if valid, will merely document the fact that the founder of this tiny sect made aliyah under the Law of Return, is considered a Jew, and was at one time a member of an Orthodox synagogue.  They will not confirm that this individual made aliyah under this Law while proclaiming a belief in Jesus as the Messiah, nor will they confirm that the Israeli government has a policy of allowing "Netzarim" to make aliyah under the Law of Return.  The original question was whether you had any evidence that there have been rulings by the Israeli government that the Law of Return applies to "Netzarim"; these documents, even if valid, will not in any way show that.  Finally, the last half of the paragraph, dealing with various irrelevant and ad hominem questions regarding my motivations, emotional states, abilities, etc. is, as usual, ignored. Jayjg 15:49, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

You are clutching at straws. The point is that Netzarim are not distinguished from other orthodox Jews. Kol Tov.Zestauferov 19:42, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Well, except for the facts that the movement was founded in the 1980s by a former Baptist preacher and his wife, and that they consider Jesus to be the Jewish Messiah, facts not true of any Orthodox Jewish movement but quite common in Messianic Judaism, it is possible that you are correct. Unfortunately, we have no way of really knowing that. Jayjg 14:25, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Yes we do and I have toled you repeatedly how CYLOR. Or go through OU. Kol TovZestauferov 17:23, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * As I've told you repeatedly, I've spoken to several Orthodox Rabbis on the subject. They all say that they've never heard of the movement (which is hardly surprising, considering that it consists at most of a few dozen individuals).  They also all say that a belief that Jesus is the Messiah is incompatible with Orthodox Judaism. Jayjg 18:47, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Jayig wrote: " (which is hardly surprising, considering that it consists at most of a few dozen individuals)." Please give specific details of the source for this. I do not understand precisely (since my own understanding of messiah hampers me), but as usual, as with everything else, they do not go against the Halakhah just very much in fact like the Lubavitchers (whom I also don't understand). Your "several" rabbis didn't say they would check it out for you? How strange. I wonder precisely how you worded your question.Zestauferov


 * As I've explained in other Talk: pages, I assert that they consist of at most a few dozen individuals because they are mentioned nowhere except on their website. I'd love to be proven wrong; if you have any evidence whatsoever about their membership numbers, I'd be very happy to see it.  Regarding "they do not go against the Halakhah", one of the 13 Fundamental Principles of Orthodox Jewish belief is that the Messiah has not yet come; insisting that Jesus is the Messiah contradicts this Fundamental Principle.  Regarding Lubavitchers, many Haredi Rabbis (including the most senior Haredi Rabbi) have indeed been saying for years that they are also not part of Orthodox Judaism.  Regarding my questions, I asked several Orthodox Rabbis "1. Have you ever heard of a movement known as Netzarim or Nazarene Judaism? 2. Is this group part of Orthodox Judaism?  3. Can a group which, or person who, believes that Jesus is the Messiah, but not God or part of a Trinity, be part of Orthodox Judaism?"  Their consistent answers were "1. No, 2. I've never heard of them, and 3. No". Jayjg 17:50, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Oh, and the OU website, on the topic of Messiah in its "Jewish Philosophy and Belief" links to two articles, both at the Aish HaTorah website (another Orthodox organization).  The first, titled "Why Don't Jews Believe in Jesus?" explains (not surprisingly) why Jews don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah.   The second, titled "The Messiah", makes it clear in that in Jewish belief the Messiah has not come. .  It also lists, as its first item, the 13 Principles of Jewish Faith", the fundamental beliefs of an Orthodox Jew.  Principle 12 states "I believe with perfect faith in the coming of the Messiah. How long it takes, I will await His coming every day."   In other words, according to Orthodox Jewish belief, the Messiah has not yet come.  This would rule out from Orthodox Jewish belief that notion that Jesus was the Messiah. Jayjg 22:32, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Thankyou, I am well aware. I told you that you could check out the netzarim through the OU and you can. Good Luck.Zestauferov 17:15, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Why would the OU insist that Orthodox Jews must not accept that Jesus is the Messiah, and indeed must accept that the Messiah has not yet come, and still include "Netzarim" (a group which insists that Jesus is the Messiah) as a legitimate Orthodox group? Also, who specifically should I speak to or e-mail at the OU for this information?  Please provide a phone number of e-mail name for me to contact; the name of the person there that you spoke to about this would be best. Thanks. Jayjg 17:39, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I got spammed in a Messanic discusison by one of these Netzarim. I decided to track down their web site to see what they were claiming. Their position appeared to be that Yeshua, while the Messiah, was (their POV) not God, and not arguing for any substianial changes to rabbinic Judaism. They then made a bit deal about their acceptance by certain OJ groups, and of the immigration. I don't find this hard to believe--they claim that He was Messiah, but that this makes no difference, and that everyone should convert to a belief system equivalen to OJ. NathanZook 02:53, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)