Talk:Messianic Judaism/Archive 7

Non-christian Messianic Jews
This article should include a section on Jews that followed messiahs other than Jesus like Sabbatai Zevi or Menachem Mendel Schneerson. Would those still be considered Messianic Jews or not? PiMaster3 15:08, 24 June 2006 (UTC)


 * No. They don't self-define as Messianic Jews. And self-defined Messianic Jews are unrelated to these other groups. The term Messianic Judaism has a very specific application to an emerging NRM. It has a recognized scholarly definition, and people outside the movement who have no desire to affiliate with it should not be miscategorized within it. --AuntieMormom 23:35, 24 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Well stated. Messianic Jews are specifically those of Jewish ethnicity who have come to a "completion of faith" by receiving the Jewish Messiah, Yeshua/Jesus.  Messianic congregations usually also include Messianic Goyim/Gentiles, but the object of their worship is the same: Yeshua haMashiach.  Shalom u brachot!  -SHLAMA 00:35, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Conclusion
Have we come to any conclusion on what this article should display? I am tired of the lock on the article and I am wanting to continue further -- but nothing is moving. The article has been locked since 6/05. Today is 6/30. When will it be removed? Rivka 16:48, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I can try to resolve
Shalom Rivka and all ! I guess I know both (or all) sides of controversy and I can try to resolve all this. Please summarise all things to short form.--fivetrees 20:17, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I have a version here: User:Inigmatus/Messianic Judaism revision that the majority of Messianic Jews want to use to replace the current article. A small minority of those who are not even Messianic Jews, are undecided; and of these, very few claim there is no point to replacing the current article. I think the consensus is to simply unlock the current article and replace it with my version, so that people can edit it mercilessly, and so let the chips fall where they may - even bringing in information from the old article to the new just to satify both camps.


 * The lock on the article is ridiculous. There was no edit war as far as I can tell, but there isn't one now, if there was. And now that I've joined this article's development team, I will ensure there is no edit war worthy of another lock. Just remove the lock please and let the article continue maturing. Based on comments raised, some of us feel the lock on this article was an administrative abuse, and maybe even an act of censorship on the part of the one(s) who locked it or were involved in its locking. It's hard to assume good faith in this discussion simply because those who are Messianic Jews believe they have the right to input into the article that which outsiders and anti-Messianics have made a habit to delete.  I would think that if Islam and Christianity can survive without frequent locks, so can Messianic Judaism. Make my article the basis of a major revision, and I think it will help solve a lot of the POV problems. I think we are a mature bunch of editors, and I know even with our differences that we don't have to revert to locks to make our points. We must accept that this article is controversial to more than one religious camp, and be willing to conceed that multiple edits and counter edits will ensue as a result. It's just the very nature of this article. No sense in censoring it with a (more than) month long administrative lock. inigmatus 01:31, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

We are still waiting for this page to be unprotected. So far, no sufficient reason yet exists for its continued protection. inigmatus 20:58, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

The New Version
The new and consensus version has been posted. Obviously, it's not polished as well as we'd all like, however, I do believe we can make an effort as a group to import information from the old article into the new article and its appropriate section. I am fully aware the version I have posted will be mercilessly edited, but that's the nature of wiki. I have posted it because I believe it was a consensus move by the majority of those who contribue to the article, and I fully believe allowing all sides a section of their own to post information and rebuttals will help alleviate some of the disagreements on what should and should not be in the article. If over time it helps the development of a future Messianic Judaism portal, so be it. I'm just doing my part by expanding the info as is, to match other articles like Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. It's about time we start getting serious about making this a featured article page. Please make all changes to the current article, and please help cite sources for information that has been posted. Let's finally get this article moving in a positive and consensus-driven direction. inigmatus 21:35, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone know where we can get a good photograph of a Messianic Jewish synagogue? I'd love to see one posted on the page. Remember, I'm thinking featured article status. It has to be a good photo. I think the previous photo on the old page is good for now. What do you think? Any other ideas for relevant photos that we might add? inigmatus 21:42, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

The photo you currently have is a photo of Baruch Hashem Messianic Synagogue in Dallas, TX. It is only of the front door of the structure. I will look into other MJ photos. Rivka 14:07, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Gee I have looked all over the net and I can't find a decent picture of any Messainic Synagogues. Does it matter if they are not as glamorous as Baruch Hashem's pic (BH's pic only shows the main doors and not the entire structure)? I mean, because I did find a few but they were not to my... liking. Let me know... Rivka 16:05, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Sin, Atonement, Faith & Works Section
I was going to begin this like "Messianic believers define sin as transgression of the Law of God (1 John 3:4-5)". Is there any reason that statement does not work? (I am very new to actually editing things on Wikipedia, and am open to all answers). Thanks -- Rivka 22:32, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Thats good Rivka. inigmatus 00:53, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Elder Editors, please look at the aforementioned section and tell me if it doesn't work POV-wise and any other reasons why it does not work. I learn from y'all, lol. Rivka 15:27, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

History
The section on modern history which carried a dubious tag, was unsoursed and obviously innacurate. I replaced it with a section from a previous version which was documented with relaible sources, and though by no means comprehensive, is a good starting point. I can't see any resonable objections to it but please speak up if there is any objective problems with it ( other than claiming the sources are unreiable, because they don't support your viewpoint).

Also this section clearly need expanding, as messianc judaism has continued to evlove since the 70's, and has become more torah observant, and more distant from hebrew christianity. There also seems to be a Ango/American focus with no mention of the movements in Israel, eastrn europe, and the rest of the world. 69.181.209.11 07:10, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I read over what you changed. I don't think anyone should have an issue with it. Seems neutral. Do you have a screenname? I think we'd appreciate if you logged in. Thanks Rivka 14:23, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Messianic Gentiles
The newly added portion seems to me to be POV. Unless the anonymous poster has a source, perhaps it should be reworded(or deleted)? Rivka 13:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Proposed Edits
Since this is a disputed article I don't want to start hacking away at it.

First, in the "Identity" section there's a link to a non-existant Jewish objections to Messianic Judaism article. I don't think there needs to be an entire article on that subject. I think the Jewish Objections section works just fine. So how about deleting "or see also Jewish objections to Messianic Judaism."

Second, under section 4. "Torah" I don't think the terms "Majority view" or "Minority view" are correct. Law vs Grace may be the majority view for Hebrew Christians, but Grace and Law seems to be the majority view for people who identify themselves as Messianic Jews. Onethang 16:08, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * One vote in support of these edits 12.218.150.29 04:57, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Onethang, I am looking for this link that you’re speaking of, under Jewish Objections and I see only one link and that’s to the reference at the bottom of the page. The Jewish Objections section is still just a stub. As it says, you can help by adding to it. Just remember to provide sources on said information and to keep it NPOV. As for the Majority/Minority view under Torah, I half-way agree with you but am unable to find sources citing this claim. Until sources are provided (and viable ones at that), it should not be changed.Rivka 16:32, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

It's in the Identity section, not the Jewish objections section:

For Jewish objections to the term Messianic Judaism please see the sub-topic Jewish Objections below, or see also Jewish objections to Messianic Judaism.

I want to change it to:

For Jewish objections to the term Messianic Judaism please see the sub-topic Jewish Objections below.

About Majority/Minority, are there any sources supporting it the way it is? It seems like it's someone's opinion that these are the majority or minority. Unless there are some stats supporting it as it is, it should be changed to two views. Both should be written as what "some" Messianics believe, not what "most" believe. Onethang 02:39, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay. I vote for both edits. The first one you talk of is so minor I don't think anyone will have a problem with you changing it. Rivka 03:36, 3 August 2006 (UTC)