Talk:Mesut Özil

Analysis of the references claiming the Kurdish ethnicity

 * The first reference in this Wikipedia article (link) is a blog entry in About.com by an author named Stewart Coggin (personal archived page). The entry had been alive till January 17, 2016, and was archived by the Internet Archive. The entry is not available at the time of writing via Google Search (see) or via the same author's collection of entries in the same rebranded website (now liveabout) (link). The entry contains the following sentence without any reference: "Ozil, a third-generation member of the Kurdish community in Germany,". Neither this remark nor any other remarks of this entry contain a verifiable reference or citation of any sort. I will e-mail him to kindly request any references available to his claim, and will share his feedback here if he replies.
 * The second reference in this Wikipedia article (link) does not even contain a single word of "Kurdish" or "Mesut Ozil" - but the reason for this is that I think someone put a different link. Yet I didn't give up and found the original link of this claim (link). The news is from a Turkish website, and the news is based on a news agency named Peyamner News Agency (website). The original content from the news agency is not available online. The news had stated that Kurdistan Football Association has invited Ozil to Iraqi Kurdistan based on Ozil's remarks on his Diyarbakir-roots and Kurdishness. However, there is no single statement that Ozil has made that his ancestors are either from Diyarbakir (in contrast, the statements of his indicates that his ancestors are from Devrek (link)) or his ancestors are Kurdish.
 * I will track how the main source of these claims had emerged - and will complete my investigation. So far, I have found out that various websites/outlets had put forward these claims based on an alleged ZDF interview on around 2010. My first impression is that that all these hypes began with a fake news, which needs a fact-checking. I am more than happy to be proven incorrect with supporting evidence. Will do the update in the near future.

Analysis of the references claiming the Turkish ethnicity

 * In his own words, Ozil has directly communicated the following statements on 22 Jul 2018 without any involvement of any third-party outlet in his Twitter account clarifying his ethnic background along the way during his controversial retirement (I / III II/III, III/III, Deutsche Welle-1, Deutsche Welle-2):

Ozil assists record
UEFA Europa League top assist provider:2009-10

UEFA Champions League top assist provider:2010–11

La liga top assist provider:2010-11,2011-12,2012-13

Psrpen00 (talk) 13:19, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Grey Wolves tattoo
Hi. I can accept that you take issue with specific citations but these outright removals of the tattoo controversy are not okay. If you perform one web search for "mesut özil graue wölfe tattoo" you'll find that this was covered by all kinds of very reliable media. I have restored the section with more reliable sourcing. We now have four citations: from Tagesspiegel, ZDF, Deutschlandfunk and Tagesschau. Kind regards, Robby.is.on (talk) 16:02, 19 January 2024 (UTC)


 * I appreciate you reaching out via this talk page message to discuss this issue but I dont think we will see eye to eye on this. In my opinion, citing a number of articles on a given topic or issue alone does not necessarily add merit to allegation or claim, if the content of the articles is questionable. These articles primarily discuss the history of the organization or go off on tangents about Ozils friendship with Recep Erdogan, all of which is irrelevant to determining whether he is actually associated with this organization. The only argument presented is a claim by a left wing MP (with a political agenda of his own) that Ozil is allegedly a member based on the resemblance of a tattoo. Also, given the amount of xenophobia and racism this player has been subjected to in Germany, German media outlets cant necessarily be considered impartial when it comes to him.
 * Nevertheless, if you want to keep this information in the article and present the accusation in an imprtial and unbiased manner then simply state the following:
 * "In July, 2023, Hakan Tas, a left wing Berlin MP, with an affliation to the PKK Kurdish Militant organization, accused Mesut Ozil of being a member of member of the far-right organization Grey Wolves, based on a percieved resemblance of a tattoo on the players chest to the symbol of the organization." Instantwatym (talk) 18:21, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
 * The only argument presented is a claim by a left wing MP (with a political agenda of his own) that Ozil is allegedly a member based on the resemblance of a tattoo. That is not true. Only the Berliner Zeitung article, which we no longer use, referred to Hakan Tas. Please have a look at the four citations we have now. Robby.is.on (talk) 18:32, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
 * - Tagesspiegel - This article is behind a paywall so I cant comment on its contents.
 * - ZDF - Makes a claim about the percieved resemblance of the tattoo to the symbol of the oragnization. Same argument as Hakan Tas. Then the author makes a claim about supposed backlash for allegedly spreading the symbol. The proof of this backalsh being commentary for 1 political scientist and 1 tweet from 1 twitter user that shares the same opinions as the author and as Harkan Tas. This is all anecdotal. The author then goes off on a tangent about Ozil being a Turkish nationalist and his friendship with Recep Erdogan. Being a Turkish nationalist does not necessarily mean he is affliated with this ogranization. Its a nonsensical argument. Similarly, being friends with Recep Erdogan does not mean Ozil is affliated with this organization. Ozil is also friends with other political figures such as Angela Merkel, who has the level of affliation with Grey Wolves that Erdogan does (i.e., none). This article offers nothing of merit.
 * - Deustchlandfuk - Makes a claim about the percieved resemblance of the tattoo to the symbol of the oragnization. Same argument as Hakan Tas. Then the author writes about the history of the Greys Wolves as an organization and talks about how Erdogan serves Turkish nationalism. This article is barely about Ozil at all and most likely the worst source of the 4 (even though I havent looked a the contents of Tagesspiegel). The goal of these articles should be to provide some conrete evidence about Ozils affliation, which they dont.
 * - Tagesschau - Makes a claim about the percieved resemblance of the tattoo to the symbol of the oragnization. Same argument as Hakan Tas. Then the author provides a quote from the same political scientist that ZDF quoted. Again anecdotal. Then like the other articles goes on the history of Grey Wolves without providing any additional evidence on whether or not Ozil is affliated.
 * Based on my opinion (and it is just an opinion), these articles barely have anything of merit. I suppose the other way to present this information in the article is to say that:
 * In July 2023, a photo on Instagram was published showing a tattoo depicting a howling wolf on Özil's chest. A few domestic German news outlets, 1 left wing Berlin MP and 1 political scienstist, used to accuse him of being affliated with ultra right-wing ogranization Grey Wolves based on their percieved likeness of the tattoo to the Symbol of the Oraganization. His affliation was never confirmed and the news outlets covering the story primarily discussed his friendship with Recep Erdogan as a basis from him being a Turkish nationslist and thus likely a member of the Grey Wolves. Instantwatym (talk) 02:29, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
 * The current wording reflects reporting. Your suggested wording gets it wrong in a couple of ways:
 * It does not mention the "three crescent moons".
 * "A few domestic German news outlets" is inaccurate. It was all over German media. Some of these media cite political scientists and other experts but all clearly state that the three crescent moons and a howling wolf are symbols of the Grey Wolves.
 * "His affliation was never confirmed […]" is not in any of the sources.
 * Based on my opinion (and it is just an opinion), these articles barely have anything of merit. You're entitled to your opinion. But I don't think it's reasonable to discount all of German media because of xenophobia and racism this player has been subjected to in Germany. Robby.is.on (talk) 10:20, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
 * The reason for omitting three cescent moons was because the uninformed authors of these articles alleged that the three crescent moons (which are actually not present on the Grey Wolves symbol) are symbol of the Grey Wolves. The three crescent moons were present flags of the Ottomon Empire used between 1499-1517, as well as between 1517-1793. Similarly, the the Grey Wolf itself is a symbol of Turkic Mythology (even outlets reporting on the Grey Wolves organization mention the origins of the symbol ).
 * In modern times, they symbols have been hijacked and used in by nationalist movements. There is absolutely no way for the authors or anyone else to confirm whether Ozils tattoo references the Ottomon Empire and Turkic mythology or the Nationalist Movement Party and/or Grey Wolves. A reputable impartial source which actually exaimed his tattoo, as opposed to writing thinkpieces on Erdogan and Grey Wolves would have mentioned this information. This is why I questioned the quality of the sources and their bias/agenda. If the information is to be included than saying that a tattoo IS a symbol of the Grey Wolves is not appropriate. I will fix this eventually to present it in a more unbiased manner. Instantwatym (talk) 16:42, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
 * three crescent moons (which are actually not present on the Grey Wolves symbol) They are, however, part of the MHP's logo and the MHP is affiliated with the Grey Wolves.
 * This is why I questioned the quality of the sources and their bias/agenda. If the information is to be included than saying that a tattoo IS a symbol of the Grey Wolves is not appropriate. The sources I used are of very high quality. (If you're doubtful about that, feel free to ask for them to be checked at Reliable sources/Noticeboard.) And our job as editors is to reflect the reporting of reliable sources. If the reliable sources which reported on the tattoos indeed got things wrong in this instance as you claim, that's a problem we have to live with. See Verifiability, not truth. Robby.is.on (talk) 23:44, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
 * You acknowledge that the 3 crescent moons are not present in the Grey Wolves symbol, yet this is what is highlighted in all the sources included, without any mention of the MHP whatsoever (or about historical and cultural significance of crescent moons and grey wolves). The same way the misleading wording in this article explicitly states that the 3 crescent moons are symbols of the grey wolves despite not being so, without any mention of the MHP whatsoever. Its disingenuous and misleading in the extreme. And saying sources are of very high quality is subjective. There are no Wiki archives indicating that these sources have been deemed reliable or of high quality, only that they havent deemed unreliable as of yet. And given that all of them falsely claimed that the 3 crescent exist in an official logo of the Grey Wolves despite not being so, it should be fairly easy to classify them as unreliable. Instantwatym (talk) 17:11, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
 * all of them falsely claimed that the 3 crescent exists in an official logo of the Grey Wolves despite not being so. None of them did, actually. They claim that the three crescents and the howling wolf are symbols for the Grey Wolves. And as the Grey Wolves and the MHP belong together, that claim is plausible. it should be a fairly easy to classify them as unreliable. Nope. They don't suddenly become unreliable because one editor on Wikipedia makes that claim. Robby.is.on (talk) 17:35, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
 * - "They claim that the three crescents and the howling wolf are symbols for the Grey Wolves. And as the Grey Wolves and the MHP belong together, that claim is plausible. " Violation of WP:NOR. Not up to Wikipedia editors to fill in gaps and make original arguments about plausability. The authors claim that 3 crescents are symbols for the Grey Wolves, which is false.
 * - "Nope. They don't suddenly become unreliable because one editor on Wikipedia makes that claim." They have never been deemed reliable in the first place, irrespective of your personal opinion. If someone (me or anyone else) wants to make a case about them being unreliable, they are welcome to do so for other editors to discuss. Instantwatym (talk) 17:02, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Violation of WP:NOR. Not up to Wikipedia editors to fill in gaps and make original arguments about plausability. Most of your arguments in this discussion are original research. 🤷
 * If someone (me or anyone else) wants to make a case about them being unreliable, they are welcome to do so for other editors to discuss. I already pointed to Reliable sources/Noticeboard above. Let me know when you start a discussion about the sources there. Robby.is.on (talk) 20:23, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Instantwatym, your edit summary comment niche opinions from unreliable sources has no basis in reality. The sources are generally reliable and anything but "niche". Again, if you think the sources are unsuitable, take it to the reliable source noticeboard. Robby.is.on (talk) 09:53, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Three crescents are NOT symbols of the Grey Wolves. It is FALSE. Any source that publishes false claims can be assumed unreliable and it is undue weight. Your personal opinion does not trump half a dozen reliable sources. If you continue to remove reliably sourced content from the page, I will request admin intervention. Robby.is.on (talk) 19:04, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
 * You are more than welcome to involve an admin. I dont take issue with that. It would actually be helpful to have other editors weigh in on this dispute.
 * The language/text you are insiting on including in this article explicity states that the 3 crescents are symbols of the Grey Wolves which is false. The sources stating as such are publishing false information, hence why they are unreliable. A source stating a claim does not make it true. Even in this talk page disucssion, you have tried make a roundabout original argument to defend this false 3 crescents claim.
 * Ive tried to compromise on the language with you as well, by only including the factual information about the howling wolf being a symbol of the Grey Wolves and it being depicted in his tattoo. However, you are opposed to that too (based on the reverts) and are insisting on pushing a false narrative that 3 crescents are symbols of Grey Wolves.
 * Please cite this discussion and your unwilling to compromise on removing propaganda and false claims when submitting a request for admin intervention. Thanks. Instantwatym (talk) 20:11, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
 * The language/text you are insiting on including in this article explicity states that the 3 crescents are symbols of the Grey Wolves which is false. You have yet to provide any kind of source supporting that claim. With many German newspapers reporting on this, you'd think someone would have publicly called out the error if the German newspapers had got it completely wrong? By the way, Grey Wolves (organization) has "In 2022, Grey Wolves vandalized an Armenian genocide memorial in Brussels with three crescents, similar to the MHP logo." With the Grey Wolves being the MHP's paramilitary young wing, calling the three crescents a symbol for the Grey Wolves could been seen, if anything, as slightly imprecise, but certainly not outright false as you persistently claim. Robby.is.on (talk) 20:27, 7 February 2024 (UTC)