Talk:Metal: A Headbanger's Journey

Contents
the film uses "Norwegian Black Metal," not "Norwegian Death Metal." Changed it in Contents --69.141.203.252 17:47, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Despite the length of the DVD (way too short) and the metal sub-genre flowchart, I think Sam did a fine job in creating this documentary. I say it was way too short because it is difficult to condense over 30 years of history, culture, and influence into a film that is less than two hours. But from an academic viewpoint, he did an incredible job. The few documentaries that I have seen have focused on only the history of metal and have focused entirely too much attention to what they consider "metal" (i.e. - glam metal, Marilyn Manson, etc.). And because of his anthropological background, Sam did present metal as a culture, which I feel is important. I would love to see a sequel, particularly if it focuses on the metal culture in Asia and South America. There is much talent outside of the United States and Europe.68.102.147.121 11:54, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Black Sabbath in the soundtrack
The song "Black Sabbath" is not featured in the movie altough they talk about it. The song that is played during the talk is "Am I Evil?" by Diamond Head.

Request
Could someone who has access to it put some kind of summary of that flowchart found within the movie? Apparently it can be both navigated on the DVD as well as found in the booklet that comes with the music CD. Someone must have at least one of these. (The DVD isn't released til August in UK, and I'm a little impatient ;) )

(Matt d84 03:10, 31 July 2006 (UTC))
 * Well, that chart is a monster, and I think it is far to big to give a detailed explaination, even if it just the connections between the genres. If you go here, about three-quarters down the page, some guy re-wrote the chart out. Give it a look, if someone wants to condense it down or recreate it for this page, be my guest, and good luck.

That scene with the huge swords after the black metal discussion
Anyone know what these are called? perhaps a link to the wiki entry? 123.100.96.142 10:00, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

sequel
i recently received a myspace bulletin from the century media myspace that read:

''"Metal is expanding and evolving and becoming more diverse," said Canadian anthropologist and filmmaker Sam Dunn, who directed "Metal: A Headbanger's Journey," released on DVD this summer. "It's at a much more vibrant state than it was even five or 10 years ago."''

Dunn is working on a sequel to the film with the working title "Global Metal" which will trace the popularity of metal overseas, especially in developing countries like Brazil, Columbia and Indonesia.

so maybe after there's more info, maybe a section, or a whole page. Patrick 22:17, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Goth Metal
Was the family tree actually from the film, or somoeone elses design? As Goth Metal and Gothic Metal are different things, and most of the bands listed their are neither of the two.

It was actually from the bonus section of the DVD. Opeth as "goth metal" and Cradle of Filth as Norwegian black metal? It's not like this DVD should be treated as a truthful reference.


 * yea really, I mean Opeth as Goth Metal, not only is that offending, it isnt true. As a true encyclopedia, shouldnt wikipedia make a point as to that is wrong or something. It sure as hell is false, as is about half the things on that retarded tree.

Hey, guys, ever heard of signing your posts? Anyway, it's not up to us to say what is or isn't Goth Metal, that would be original research. All we can do is report what other sources, like this DVD, say. Kevlar67 05:30, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Please, read the article about Opeth and listen to their music and you WILL hear that they are NOT Gothic Metal! They are Progressive Death Metal (Death Metal with Progressive influences, i.e. Jazz and Blues). Cradle of Filth on the other hand has some ties to Gothic Metal, and are by no means "real" Black Metal. That's a well known fact amongst Black Metal fans, and the only reason people still think they are Black Metal is bacause they claim so themselves. And, being from UK, there is no reason what-so-ever to call them Norwegian Black Metal. If you need proof for that too, then just compare them to any real Norwegian Black Metal band. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.224.4.140 (talk) 21:41, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Goth Metal and Gothic Metal are the same thing stupid, its just an abbreviation instead of saying Gothic to say Goth. Jay316 20:08, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

i just wanna tell that linkin park is a nu-metal band it is not included in list plz can any one add that on that on the main page of this article i didn`t did it because i don`t know that will it interferring with the copy right act of that documentary

The list isn't meant to have every band of the particular genre included, it is just a list of examples. Besides that, it is just a reproduction of the chart that is included in the movie, and Linkin Park wasn't on it. Matt d84 01:50, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Doom Metal
Surely the film's inaccuracy on the existance of doom metal (Candlemass under stoner metal) and its being a 'close alternative to goth metal' should be noted. Pzekkio 01:13, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

oh my god!! so much kinds of metal!!05:21, 11 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Dunn got this genre totally wrong... I mean SURE, Kyruss sounds so much like Cathedral (sarcasm)... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.101.156.35 (talk) 01:04, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Spoiler Tag
I just removed the spoiler tag since the movie was actually a documentury, and you can't really post a spoiler about a documentury :P Talk User:Fissionfox 10:39, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

who in their right mind classifies opeth as "doom" or "goth" metal?

IDIOT

Norvegian Black Metal
Is this an exact reproduction of Sam Dunns scheme from the film? Can someone tell me what them "romantic-goth-blackmetallers" Cradle of Filth are doing on that list? They use elements from "blackmetal", but to put it in here? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.200.11.14 (talk) 03:29, 9 April 2007 (UTC).

I would also question Dimmu Borgirs position in this group. First of all, they are of the second wawe.. Second, there are et least, or if not even more elements of deathmetal and gothmetal than there is blackmetal elements in their music.

Not to mention CoF hails from England, not Norway...

Cradle ARE from England but Sam refers to the style of music that the band plays, duh. Jay316 20:09, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Concerning vikernes sentence: It is a life sentence. Norwegian law allows a maximum sentence of the number of years one is old when sentenced. Vikernes is serving 21 years in prison because he was 21 years old at the time. A citation can come from the book Lords of Chaos or a norwegian law reference.

Can someone tell me please what's that song which sounds a bit like folk @ norvegian black metal

Dear Kids of Wikipedia
Little kids jumping in and adding whatever their favorite band is to the chart is getting annoying. THE CHART IS COMPLETE IN CONTEXT TO THE FILM. This means there is no point in adding any more bands to the chart for any reason. As far as the movie goes, these were the only bands included, and that's all that matters as far as this page should be concerned. Stop adding people you think got shafted. Of course plenty of bands have been left out, but the point of the film's chart was to list just a few examples, not everyone ever. Thanks. // Logical Defense 23:40, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Table with Artists, Bands and hometowns
OK metal heads, I created this table thing, and have been adding names from the official movie website as well as more detailed info from Wiki, as I find the time. I'm not really a metal fan, but the movie was THAT good. Anyhow, if somebody feels like organizing it better, or at least SUGGESTING how we may put it into some kind of alphabetical order, please let me (us) know, Much thanks.-- Rob NS  22:47, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the chronological order of the movie is a good order. --Ifrit 19:34, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
 * So, do you feel like rearranging them Frit? Cheers-- Rob NS  19:44, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Manowar
What a fucking idiots!!! Manowar is pure heavy metal!¨not fucking power! Power metal is blind guardian, hammerfall. Did that moron ever heard Manowar. I can't believe it!!! 193.198.173.13 15:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Manowar is glam metal! ≈  Maurauth  ( nemesis~☆ ) 15:09, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

did you ever seen them. they are pagan's. Pure Pagan Heavy Metal! Not glam! Not fucikg power metal!!!--193.198.173.13 15:12, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

On the contrary, they're even more glam than Twisted Sister, and more power than HammerFall. ≈  Maurauth  ( nemesis~☆ ) 15:22, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Umm... somebody here needs to recheck the MEANING of power metal, because Manowar -- given their album art and lyrical content -- are clearly Power. Thanks. Logical Defense 00:44, 1 June 2007 (UTC)


 * WHAT THE HELL!!? Manowar is the definative American power metal band! One things for certain, they sure as hell aren't glam metal! Geez...
 * Oh yeah, and pagan metal makes no sense either. If we're going to label them by their lyrics, they're battle metal!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.101.156.35 (talk) 01:49, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Judas Priest
I hate to start another genre debate, but this is Judas Priest I'm talking about here...I mean does nobody else think that labeling them Power Metal is ridiculous, ESPECIALLY when Iron Maiden is put under NWOBHM?! Yes I know that what is listed here should be what is listed in the documentary, but what I am suggesting is that something can be mentioned about this mistake, kind of like what's written about the mistake about Varg's prison sentence. Dying2live 20:59, 20 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Well YAH... of course they are not power metal, they are simply classic metal or MAYBE NWOBHM. Well, at least the guy mentioned HammerFall and Blind Guardian instead of totally ignoring them lie some other metal writers (i.e. Ian Christe) do.


 * This whole movie is filled with inaccuracies and misinformation. Don't take it as a definitive guide to metal. Metalhead0043 19:54, 31 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree; I think this is the biggest inaccuracy. They practically reinvented metal after Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath. That said, this isn't a forum, it's a talk page, etc. However, that said, should this be added in the "Inaccurate statements" section? Weeliljimmy (talk) 21:05, 27 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I also think so, completely biased against Judas Priest, which is not surprising, given that he's a Maiden fan. Priest and Maiden fans started hating each other in the late '80es, which is completely stupid as the music is similar, and Maiden cite Priest as an influence - but what can you do about it? I think ignoring Priest in such a documentary is totally deliberate, and he shoulda got over his personal feelings. Or at least label the movie as sci-fi. Or horror.

He also ignored a lot of classic bands like Deep Purple, Thin Lizzy, Budgie, Whitesnake, Def Leppard and the whole American (Crue, Ratt, Poison G'N'R etc) scene. He may not like the American "faggot" image, but that it precisely what put metal on the map in a big way. But heck, his whole point is trying to prove that a music that sells dozens of millions of records and packs arenas after 40 years is still "outcast" and "undergroud" - he may as well sell global warming or Brooklyn bridges, why not? Stupidity Sells, and many are buying...

Christian Metal
I was disappointed that there was no mention of Christian Metal in the movie, even though it has been, and still is a huge part of the metal scene... all the way from Rez Band (http://www.resurrectionband.com), to Stryper (http://www.stryper.com), to Deliverance (http://www.myspace.com/thebigdlives), to Mortification (http://www.soundmass.com/rowe)! All aspects of metal's sounds and sub-genres are represented by some of the most amazing bands! Check out HM Magazine (http://www.hmmagazine.com) and Heaven's Metal Magazine (http://www.hmmagazine.com/heavensmetal) to see what's up.

Mbgrafix 05:25, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, folk metal and symphonic metal would have also been nice additions, but I guess there's nothing we can do about it.


 * It isn't a different sound, it's just a different lyrical direction. Personally, I've always seen the christian tag as a gimmick, it has nothing to do with how good they are. Plus, it doesn't belong, I am a christian, intrapersonally, but metal comes from hell!--76.178.123.41 (talk) 00:27, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that christian metal is an important subgenre, and just like Nsbm, it actually don't belongs to the metal scene —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.79.152.1 (talk) 23:43, 28 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Christian metal isn't a subgenre, but it is an important scene. Also, to decry it as 'not metal' is moronic, metal is defined by its sound, not its lyrics. 175.38.214.209 (talk) 02:58, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

About the "Inaccurate Statements"
I don't know if the comment on about Vikernes is "inaccurate." According to the wiki page on "life imprisonment": "Life imprisonment is a sentence of imprisonment for a serious crime, nominally for the entire remaining life of the prisoner, but in fact for a period which varies between jurisdictions."

So what's inaccurate about saying Vikernes is serving a life sentence? Perhaps this is only confusing to an American audience? Most other countries have a maximum amount of years for a life sentence.

Maybe someone should change this?

BTW, another factual error(though not a "statement" per se) is mentioned on the IMDB entry:

Factual errors: A diagram of Metal evolution appears a few times throughout the documentary. There is a box with Norwegian Black Metal (Second Wave) where Cradle Of Filth reside at the bottom of it. In fact, CoF are from Suffolk, England and their style little resemble anything near Second Wave sound. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.94.190.45 (talk) 21:13, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Also regarding the number of metal bands on the filthy fifteen, he has NOT miscounted. As the list is shown the narrator says that "Twisted Sister AND EIGHT OTHER METAL BANDS were placed on a list called the Filthy Fifteen". That makes nine. It is true that Mercyful Fate is not highlighted in red as the others are, but still the number is specified as 9 in the voice over. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.101.40.43 (talk) 15:04, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:METAL POSTER.jpg
Image:METAL POSTER.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 13:20, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Helmet
I know that the metal community at large likes to disown nu-metal and alt metal due to the fact it owes more to alternative rock than shred, but i was really dissapointed that the bend most responsible for it was completely left out of the film. New albums aside, Helmet did more than any other band including Faith No More to invent the nu-metal sound and seem to always be shunned in favor of Patton worship. not that he dosen't deserve it, but i wish Helmet could get some credit from metalheads every once in ahwile. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.213.25.226 (talk) 22:58, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Inaccuracies of the chart
In accordance with the interactive chart on the DVD, which is the same as the one in the movie bar one or two additions, there are some major flaws

1.) AC/DC is excluded from Hard Rock 2.) Tool are excluded from Hard Alternative 3.) Diamond Head are excluded from NWOBHM 4.) Children of Bodom have been added to thrash. This is in neither the film nor DVD, and is a complete false representation of Children of Bodom. It's not even a slight mistake, like calling Cradle of Filth black metal or Manowar glam, it's completely the opposite style. It even contradicts what is written on the band's wiki page, aswell as Thrash Metal's wiki page, and near enough every metal page on the net. 5.) Not on the chart, but in the band listings beneath, Extreme Noise Terror are missing from the grindcore section —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.99.36.149 (talk) 19:46, 1 April 2008 (UTC)


 * See also: Judas Priest on the talk page Weeliljimmy (talk) 21:08, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Noticed number 4 too. EXTREME mismatch. not in movie or DVD, and also completely innacurate and contradictary to everything on wikipedia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.178.123.41 (talk) 07:19, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

So CoB isn't on the chart on the bonus DVD ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chibi kain (talk • contribs) 16:44, 5 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah i agree with number 4, i looked at the list on the bonus dvd and CoB was nowhere to be found and it is a mismatch but not a big one. i can see why people would consider them thrash and it's not that big of a deal, i mean their new album is very thrash-like so why is it such a big deal. but anyway they should be taken off because they are nowhere on the chart. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.25.88.247 (talk) 21:22, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Ignore the Opeth/C.O.F. complaints
Mainly because the chart represents the view of the film, not anybody elses, regardless of how true it is.

Even if not, Opeth are clearly gothic natured. The genre tags and selected bands are meant to sum up and represent, not squarely define, as this would be impossible. Opeth are a modern band that play drawn out, semi-progressive epics with death metal vocals and tons of gothic melodies and imagery. The artwork, the clean vocal passages, the melancolic guitarlines and atmosphere...all gothic in nature. They were put last in the list of goth bands for a reason, to sum up how far the gothic thing had gone from Paradise Lost and Type O Negative.

Cradle of Filth's case is kind of the same. As much as kvlt kids far and wide hate to admit it, Cradle of Filth (at least in their most popular era) took most of the Norwegian black metal's elements to a different level. Not a better level, or the next level, or the future level or whatever, just to a different level. They took shrieking, blastbeats, tremelo, blasphemous lyrics and the Satanic/Pagan imagery - but rather than replicating Satyricon and Burzum did something different, with the inclusion of vampyric and erotic lyrics, aswell as much more theatrics. Again, like Opeth, they were listed last for a reason - after listing the traditional representatives, they were left at the end to show a successful mainstream band that worked on the old Gorgoroth ethos but changed it for (their own) better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.99.36.149 (talk) 19:58, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Can this be cited?
A quick question: can this documentary be cited as a reliable source on band genres? Personally, I'd say no, since there are a number of blatant mistakes in the chart catagorisations, but I'm curious as to whether it does fit the definition of a reliable source or not (given that it's not a written source, but does a DVD that's out count as "published" by wikipedia standards?) Prophaniti (talk) 10:30, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I would think yes. I'm sure many documentaries would qualify as a source.  Black  ngold29   14:32, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It probably could by Wiki's standards, however it would lead to problems since many of the sources we currently use are much more accurate. I don't advise using it as a source. (Albert Mond (talk) 15:22, 2 March 2009 (UTC))

bithplace
hows that relative? i say we list the interviews in order of first apperance in the film and list only the info given ♠♦Д narchistPig♥♣ (talk) 06:59, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Interviews - Flagicon John Kay
John Kay from Steppenwolf was born 12 April 1944 in Tilsit, East Prussia, at this time the official german national flag was the swastika. The Flag in black, red and gold is the national flag of the federal republik of germany from 1949 till today. So it doesn´t make sense that "Closedmouth" always make an undo, because now Tilsit in East Prussia is a part of Russia. So Tilsit never ever have a black, red and gold flag!

The film's heavy metal history chart
Shouldn't we keep to the view of the film and how they determined it all to be? and not by their Wikipedia pages and especially not ourselves? People seem to keep adding bands towards their point of view when it should match the chart no matter how wrong we think it is. FireCrystal (talk) 04:02, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Folk Metal?
I really don't understand how they could have forgot the whole pagan,viking,folk subgenre, because the folk metal subgenre is really important to the whole style of metalheads totay, for exemple all the guys wich are wearing thor's hammers or drinkhorns, to be serious I think that the folk metal scene is way more important than storner metal or pop metal or all those things —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.79.152.1 (talk) 23:36, 28 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't understand why either. I guess Sam Dunn doesn't know of that genre? The Global Metal movie could of very well covered the variations because folk metal is a worldwide or in this case a global genre. A lot of folk metal bands come from other places unlike the US and he covered bands from Japan to Brazil and the Middle East, etc such as Orphaned Land. He didn't cover post-metal, sludge metal or doom metal either. Stoner metal I would say yes... but I would say glam metal was indeed important as it was a very popular genre in the early 80s and its antics are what tempted thrash bands to bring metal to a whole new level. FireCrystal (talk) 19:27, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Punk as a Metal Subgenre?
I know we can't change the list, but seriously, what were they thinking? The problem starts when they list 'Hard Rock' as a subgenre, when Metal itself came from early Hard Rock in the '60s. Punk, of course comes primarily from '60s Garage Rock. While it's true that much punk was influenced by early metal, it's certainly not a subgenre. /rant (Albert Mond (talk) 15:20, 2 March 2009 (UTC))

AC/DC?
They were on the movie under "Hard Rock" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.228.39.239 (talk) 20:30, 21 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Then why don't I see them here? FireCrystal (talk) 20:33, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

That is typed, it is possible they were missed THEY WERE in the documentery —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.228.39.239 (talk) 20:37, 21 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Hmm... could this be wrong then? Is there something like it on the official site? I thought it was strange too that AC/DC wasn't here. FireCrystal (talk) 20:49, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Look at the documentary on Tube, You can EASILY see their logo —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.228.39.239 (talk) 21:31, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVoMFW0nNho, And unfortunately there is no website, but you can see them here at 0.04 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Just Carmine (talk • contribs) 21:39, 21 April 2009 (UTC)


 * It clearly shows AC/DC there so I think it's safe now to list them but obviously have a hidden comment by it like "check movie" or "see 'AC/DC?' section on talk". FireCrystal (talk) 18:52, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Not to be genre warring or anything
However, I think as some of the bands the film refers to as metalcore are better known as crossover or groove metal, there should be some indication to this. The metalcore page lists many of those bands as precursors or implies they are not metalcore, but were called that by some publications. Perhaps something like "not to be confused with..." or "(Many of these bands are better known as crossover or groove metal)". I'm somewhat surprised there hasn't been any complaints or edit wars over this, considering the discontent many metal fans have for metalcore.58.161.121.183 (talk) 07:20, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
 * There has been a lot of complaints. Just read the talk page. The rule/concensus? is we just note how the movie organises the bands and leave it at that.  Weeliljimmy  talk 10:31, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Some formatting changes to "Definitive metal family tree"
The "Definitive metal family tree" was listed out with hyphens (see snapshot), which was fairly ugly, so I changed the section to use semicolons as separators (see snapshot). I also added some indentation (and fixed a few of the wikilinks, which is essentially invisible).

Anyway, I think the section looks better now. I thought I'd make note of the change on this talk page in case anyone objects. --darolew 09:09, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

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