Talk:Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty/Archive 1

Plot section
Does the plot detail need to be so friggin' long and, well, detailed? It is essentially a walkthrough without the helpful parts at this moment.


 * Yes, we've been here before. Check the History, about two years ago the plot detail was pretty much the novelisation of the game. Cut it back down, folks. Try to fit it into four paragraphs, one per "act" plus the tanker chapter.

Uh gosh
The name Daniel Quinn is the ostensible narrator of Paul Auster's "City of Glass", part of the New York Trilogy, who at various points in the book assumes the psuedonyms "Max Work" and "William Wilson". Peter Stillman is another character in the book. THAT'S WEIRD. Someone work this into the page proper please. And all the other references. Because that would be clever.

yeah, not only that, but the whole "it's all a simulation" meta-fiction/meta-game move resonates with the themes of City of Glass, as well. in the book, peter stillman raises his son (also peter stillman) in a dark room with no sensory stimuli, and no human interaction; he's hoping that peter the son will grow up speaking the language of adam--a kind of Ur-language where there is no distinction between sign and signifier--a language that is not a mere model or simulation of "reality" but is in fact "reality" itself.

Please
The post above is correct, someone make it a plot synopsis not a plot detail. We want an article not the great american novel. &mdash; Ilγαηερ   (Tαlκ)  14:24, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

yeah, not only that, but the whole "it's all a simulation" meta-fiction/meta-game move resonates with the themes of City of Glass, as well.

Both MGS and MGS2 shown in 2000?
"As with Metal Gear Solid, the trailer for this game was shown at the 2000 E³ to critical acclaim."

the trailers for both MGS and MGS2 were shown at E3 2000? i think this is trying to say that they were both shown at E3, but not durring the same year. this should be reworded or somthing.

Success?
I went ahead and put the far more appropriate plot summary from Metal Gear in place of the existing one. I'd rather have a second opinion before de-tagging it for cleanup, though. 

Quotes?
I was was wondering if we could add a quotes section to the page. Thanks


 * I've put a link to wikiquote on here, the quotes can go in that Sockatume 22:27, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Otacon: Snake were on a mission now quit fooling around!

col. Campbell: "You've been playing this game for a long time; swich the game off!" I was like :o coz i had been playin' the game 4 aaaagggeeesss! ;]

Link to ending analysis
http://junkerhq.net/MGS2/index.html

I think this is a long and detailed explanation of the ending of the game and I think deserves to be added to the link section, even quoted to the main article...


 * It's already there in the "Fan Reaction" section. Sockatume, Talk 17:43, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Film references in names
He is aided by his girlfriend Rosemary as data manager (the couple's names, Jack and Rose, refer to the protagonists of the film Titanic, just as Hal and Dave appeared in the first MGS title), Colonel Roy Campbell as mission command, and a number of other on-site specialists, including SEAL Team 10 Lt. JG Iroquois Pliskin (instantly recognizable as Solid Snake in mufti, and another name reminsicent of a film character, this time Kurt Russell's Snake Plissken from the Escape from L.A. and Escape from New York movies).

I've edited that section, but I'm not really happy with it. If someone could condense it (perhaps moving all the film links to after the list of names, or even to a different section, article or removing them entirely) it could read much less awkwardly. --Nick R 01:19, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

Bridge
I thought the bridge in the first chapter was the Verrazano Narrows Bridge? or is that where he is picked up off the ship?


 * The jump bridge was the George Washington. Verrazano was supposed to be the extraction point.  TotalTommyTerror 20:31, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Deleting certain parts
I'm deleting the part where it says that the president's secret service security were cut from the game. After you meet the president (I think or somewhere around that time) there will be gaurds in alert mode that are fully flanked in heavy armor that don't have a russian accent. If these gaurd pertain to something else-- my fault. (Name? I have no name. 23:01, 10 December 2005 (UTC))

On the loop holes section, Snake is not using Seal team 10's or an enemy gun. He brought that with him when he infiltrated the plant. After all, he wouldn't go in there with just a pea-shooter. It is never metioned that guns other than guard's have a biometric code. (Name? I have no name. 16:56, 28 December 2005 (UTC))


 * Not that they're biometric, but in the begining of the Plant, Raiden is told he can't use the emeny weapons because they use a PIN system.Shamess 16:36, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Pretty Woman
I dont know if this is appropriate, but Julia Roberts supposed favorite game (according to PBS, which is pretty respected) is MGS2

http://www.pbs.org/kcts/videogamerevolution/arcade/celebrity/celebrity.html Question#1


 * If you take (or just submit) that quiz, it actually says Halo is the right answer. And no, this isn't really appropriate. - DoubleCross 13:41, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Deleting an unconfirmed part
The following phrase

''The reason Liquid Snake is able to manifest in Ocelot's body is revealed in Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater. Ocelot's father, The Sorrow, was a spirit medium and he passed this ability down to his son.''

should not be listed here. The reason Liquid Snake is able to manifest himself in Ocelot's body is not confirmed. There are a number of ways he could have done this, one of the more prominent reasons being that his own will to live is keeping him alive.

Again, I'd like to reitarate that no where was it stated in the game or outside of the game (except by speculating fans) that this ability was passed down to Ocelot. (anonymous)

We can add the TRUE reason for Liquid's manifestations when it is revealed in MGS4. Kojima stated that, among other things, "The truth about Ocelot's arm" will be revealed. Until then, keep it to the fansite forums. Village Baka 08:05, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

No, it is indeed due to Ocelot's inhereted ability as a medium that Liquid can take over Ocelot. Read issue 4 of the IDW Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty comic books for proof.

Any supplemental details provided by the IDW comic books are noncanon as the story has been revised by Alex Garner. Hense, there is no proof. Nitroid

OTHER
Sorry to interrupt, but a friend of mine told me about a Metal Gear game where the game wigged out, goes into Nintendo mode, and tells you to reset the game in order to screw you over. Is this the game? He also mentioned something about naked cartwheels.

Yeah this is the one (The Bread 07:29, 22 April 2006 (UTC))

Thats when the the colonel starts to act a little strange because of the gw (which is an A.I>) was infected with emma's personal virus, And well, i dont really wanna tell you the rest if u havent already beat it yourself!

It is actually a reference to the original Metal Gear. 200.112.160.47 00:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Enemies
Do you think we should add a enemies list or something? We could then mention the mysterious M4 armed soldiers you occasionally encounter.

Yes, i think we should totally do so as i have encountered those m4 guys myself..!!!

and i luv the bit with the ninjas b4 metal gear REX... and with "pliskin" snake... awsom :]

Raiden, Snake, King Kong and Godzilla
If you read the Trivia section, you'll find a bullet that says how Raiden is similar to Godzilla and Snake is similar to King Kong. Is there any point to that and is there any article or something that says the writers or producers intended it to be a comparison to Raiden or Snake? If someone can provide a valid source, I'll put it back in but I'm deleting it for now. --Tuspm 19:53, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, this is stated by Kojima in the "Making of the Hollywood Game" documentary on the bonus DVD that came with the PAL versions of Metal Gear Solid 2. - DoubleCross 16:30, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Merge Proposal
Can we merge Metal Gear Solid 2: Substance into this article? Metal Gear Solid: Integral is dealt with with on the main Metal Gear Solid page. It's not a whole new game. We could just add a section with a separate infobox and information about what was added. Ace of Sevens 05:43, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Strongly Agree While Substance features a hideously large number of bonus missions, there's no reason to seperate Substance from Sons of Liberty, as they're essentially the same game with one (Substance) featuring more in the way of bonus material. Lankybugger 14:34, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I was planning to do just that when I got around to working on this article. Of course, I was also the one that merged Integral. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 21:52, 3 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Agree, only if  the same is done for Subsitence and Snake Eater (The Bread 03:41, 22 July 2006 (UTC))


 * Strongly Disagree Whilst it still contains the original "Sons of Liberty" game, Substance is essentially a DIFFERENT GAME. It has different box art, was released at a different time, and has a different title. The same could not be said about Metal Gear Solid: Special Missions, since that was an add-on pack which required the orginal game to run, and was released at the same time as the original. Substance, and in fact Subsistence, are different games; they do not require the orginal, and they released completely separate. I think the only thing we should do is add a section to the article on the "Sons of Liberty" article entitled "Substance"; this section will inlude a brief few-line description about Substance, and a link to the Substance article. --ChaosSorcerer91 19:45, 7 August 2006 (GMT)
 * You may be interested to see Resident Evil (video game), which also covers all of that game's various variations in one article. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:25, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * But surely all the versions of Resident Evil are just versions of the same game. Substance and Sons of Liberty are different games completely. --ChaosSorcerer91 14:05, 8 August 2006 (GMT)
 * Substance is the same game with some extras added. The majority of what one can say about SOL is true of Substance, and vice versa. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 13:14, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, I get what you're saying. Fair enough. It is a different version of the original. Even so, Substance and Subsistence both have enough information about them individually to create a new article. Metal Gear Solid: Integral and the different versions of Resident Evil only create a few paragraphs, so I can understand that. But there's at at least two and half pages worth of stuff on the Substance article. --ChaosSorcerer91 14:22, 8 August 2006 (GMT)
 * I think I could probably reduce the very detailed list of modes and hidden characters to an encyclopedic overview that fits nicely into this article. Looking at the Substance article, it's comparable in length to the Integral and VR Missions articles before I merged them. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 16:24, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Looking at the two articles quickly, there's some pretty fan-crufty stuff in both that could be eliminated or go elsewhere, ie. weapons in SoL, quotes in Substance. The SoL description in the Substance article would also be redundant. The Trivia section of SoL is also bordering on obscenely long, in my opinion. Also, despite its length, I don't feel there's a lot of serious info in Substance. -- Le Scoopertemp [  tk  ] 16:50, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Agree. Substance is Sons of Liberty with extras tacked on. It's not a seperate entity in terms of story, merely packaging. Those changes can be dealt with in the article for SoL, just as any other multi-release game, just like Dead or Alive 2 (which includes Hardcore in its article and should probably include Ultimate too). And yeah, Subsistence should be merged into Snake Eater as well, but one shouldn't be contingent on the other. -- Le Scoopertemp [  tk  ] 03:38, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Strongly disagree Per ChaosSorcerer91 69.179.121.92 00:42, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Strongly disagree Different game, and the Substance article is far to large to be put into the Sons of Liberty article, and none should be cut out. The Haunted Angel 01:08, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Fission Mailed
"Fission Mailed" (that moronic internet variation on "Mission Failed") just redirects to the MGS2 page. Weird. Kestrel 23:58, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * That's because it's a reference to a fake "Game Over" scene from MGS2. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:31, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Who decides that the importance is low? I think it is atleast mid. ILovePlankton 02:05, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Fan Reaction Section
"Interestingly, his voice in the original Japanese version was a low baritone, almost deeper than that of Snake himself. In contrast to the American reception, Raiden was quite popular in Japan. This was partly due to his deeper voice and because an androgynous appearance is generally more acceptable in Japanese pop culture."

I edited the preceeding paragraph (I simply changed the words "was quite popular" to "wasn't as heavily criticized", because as the linked article at http://www.geocities.com/muni_shinobu/mg/topic/030122.html clearly says "Raiden wasn't all that well received either, but the complaint was never really about Raiden personally").

However just a few minutes later (just a coincidence I suppose) the entire paragraph was removed: "rm junk sourced to a GC site (it's been removed several times from Raiden's article)". Can this be elaborated on? Aside from being incorrect in stating that Raiden is "quite popular" in Japan, I see no reason to delete the paragraph. The first sentence about Raiden having a deep voice in the Japanese version should definitely stay in. I've frequently heard complaints about Quinton Flynn's voice as Raiden, and it should be pointed out that Kojima didn't cast such a voice in the Japanese version (Kojima didn't handle the translation, localization, and English voice casting, of course).

Also, the following sentence doesn't make sense to me: "Furthermore, some felt that the game was self-indulgent, with dialogue that ran on too long, heightened by a somewhat out-of-their-league English translation." Was the translation out of the dialogue's league? What does this mean, exactly? (And why is "out-of-their-league" used instead of "out-of-its-league"?) And how did the translation specifically "heighten" the perceived self-indulgence of the game? -71.80.31.42 07:50, 15 July 2006 (UTC)


 * It's wholly unsourced. If you can come up with a source that isn't someone's Geocities site, please feel free to replace it. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 07:34, 15 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Done. Kojima stated in a 1up interview something like "see, there are some people in Japan who actually like Raiden." (It's linked to in the Raiden article; I'll have to find it.) This should at least show that Raiden was more well-received (or at least "not as heavily criticized") in Japan. The first sentence though shouldn't need a source, I don't think (anyone can play the Japanese version of MGS2 and quickly realize the huge difference between Kenyu Horiuchi and Quinton Flynn's voices). However I'm not going to put back the last sentence as it's merely opinion that the deeper voice and androgynous appearance led to increased popularity in Japan. -71.80.31.42 07:50, 15 July 2006 (UTC)


 * "That source doesn't mention the source, and Kojima is hardly an impartial observer". The source is the article (what do you mean "doesn't mention the source"?). If I didn't do the citation correctly then you should have fixed it (WP:CITE says "If you don't know how to format the citation, others will fix it for you").


 * And Kojima should know what the reaction to his game was. Other articles have referenced Kojima interviews before (in fact, this "non-impartial observer" is used as a source in the next paragraph in the article). There's no reason why the statement shouldn't be removed. If you don't like how it sounds then edit it to something like "However Kojima has made the implication that Raiden is more liked among Japanese players than among Western players." It sounds like you merely have some bias here (shown by the fact that you rerferred to the paragraph as "junk" when you first removed it). Can someone else back me up on this?


 * And once again I'm putting the first sentence back in, because like I said before it's an obvious fact that Kenyu Horiuchi has a deeper voice which anyone can observe by playing the game, and there's no reason for you to keep deleting it, unless you're just trying to censor facts you don't want others to hear.


 * If you're going to delete something again, give a clear explanation here ("that source doesn't mention the source" is hardly clear). -71.80.31.42 18:17, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, that source doesn't mention the voice, and Kojima has a vested interest in not describing his own work negatively. Would we cite Bill Gates saying "Microsoft is well-liked"? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 00:54, 16 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The source of the statement about the voice is the game itself. To say that Kenyu Horiuchi has a deeper voice than Quinton Flynn is a fact which can be observed by anyone who plays both versions of MGS2. It's not a subjective viewpoint. If I state that some song is in a lower key than some other song, would I have to cite a NY Times article to prove this? Of course not, because anyone could listen to the two songs to tell which is in a lower key, just as anyone who isn't deaf can tell that Horiuchi's voice is lower than Flynn's. No need to apologize for that, I'll revert it myself.


 * And the second statement about Kojima having "a vested interest in not describing his own work negatively" is purely assumption on your part. Kojima even states in that interview that "the fans didn't like Raiden". However Kojima would be more qualified to make such statements than almost anyone, since he created the games himself and he knows how the games were received among fans. He even states that the reason for creating Raikov in MGS3 was to appease both Raiden fans and haters alike.


 * However since you seem to believe that Kojima is lying, I'll add that sentence back in the form of something like "However, according to Kojima, many of the Japanese players actually like Raiden." That's merely stating what Kojima said in an interview, and nothing more, so you have no reason whatsoever to remove it. It's very relevant to the section of this article as it shows how Raiden was received in the eyes of some Japanese players, at least according to the creator of the game. If I don't do the citation correctly, feel free to fix the citation, but don't remove the statement unless you can prove to me that it doesn't belong in there, as I have clearly showed that there's no reason to remove it. -71.80.31.42 03:28, 16 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Saying that Japanese gamers liked Raiden better because of his lower voice is OR. Just saying his voice was lower is inane but sourcable. If you're attributing the comments to Kojima, that's not a problem.


 * I'm just sick of all this "Japanese gamers loved Raiden, American games hated him," with only the weakest sourcing if any at all. Per WP:V, I will continue removing unsourced junk on sight. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:15, 16 July 2006 (UTC)


 * There's nothing that needs to be sourced which isn't already sourced. The only thing I've added is that Kojima stated that "many Japanese players actually liked Raiden". The reader can decide whether Kojima has a "vested interest" or not. And the part about voice, as I said, is an observable fact. I didn't even say anthing such as "Raiden had a higher voice is America which is why everybody there hates him." I merely stated that his voice was deeper in the original Japanese version.


 * And if you paid attention you would see that I don't want to perpetrate that idea about Raiden either. I original changed the words "was quite popular" because it was misleading. If you have a problem with the idea that Raiden wasn't as hated in Japan, though, that's your problem. Not only did the original Geocities page make that implication, but Kojima has done the same. Nevertheless, I simply added to the article what Kojima said, leaving it up to the reader to draw any conclusions they may. Per WP:NPOV there is no reason why the statement by Kojima should be removed, as it is not "junk", as you seem to think. -71.80.31.42 04:44, 16 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you, anonymous editor. This issue is very well handled now. Ace of Sevens 05:30, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I've chopped out the "fan reaction" section for the time being, because it's basically a world of unstructured test and Citation Needed tags. If we're going to put it back in, mayhap we should have a plan? Most of it- the storyline, the pseudo-supernatural material- has been covered by the critical response to the title. Everything else seems to revolve around the negative press Raiden recieved initially (though, looking at MGS4 Raiden, he seems well on his way to rehabillitation). Unless we've got a "worst characters of 2001" poll or similar, what will we citate? Linking to "I Hate Raiden" topics on the IGN boards seems risky. I'm very much open to suggestions- and additional commentary. Nearly everyone over 15 in Europe seemed to find the floppy-haired goof quite pleasant after controlling a strategically-shaved bear for the Tanker Chapter. Hyperspacey 06:19, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

The Document of MGS2 /= The Making Of MGS2
Worth noting, and I have edited the page as such, that the original European release of MGS2 and the European Substance release of MGS2 contained very different bonus discs. The original was one of two Making Of DVDs that FunTV of France made for Konami Europe- the other was a similar disc for Silent Hill 2's original UK release. The Substance DVD is the common-or-garden The Document Of MGS2 disc as released seperately in the US and Japan.

Hyperspacey 21:55, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Plot Synopsis
Isn't it a bit, well, lengthy? The excised stuff and trivia, aye, keep that, but the entire plot of the game? Wouldn't a brief summary of the rough plot do, a wee two-paragraph thing?

Oh, nevermind, the "synopsis" for The Godfather movie is longer than the ruddy film. We aren't that bad. Question- are all Wikipedia entries for things with plots meant to regugitate the entire plot? Isn't it pointless for anyone except the people writing the so-called summary?

Hyperspacey 03:39, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I think this synopsis is shorter, more to the point, and tells you all you relaly need to know. Hyperspacey 06:13, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

No gameplay section...?
It seems like an odd move. I thought I would bring it up here before making any sort of edit, due to it possibly being intended. If not, this needs to be remedied immediately, and I will do so myself if no one else is up for it. JimmyBlackwing 05:23, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, there most definitely should be a gameplay section. -- Steel 11:26, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I have bodged something together. Pray, good fellows, bodge it some more. Hyperspacey 03:32, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Substance
I still don't agree with the merge, but I guess there's nothing I can do to stop it now. Anyway, I think it would be useful to bring back that subsection we had before, with a list of differences in the games. Because the games are different in quite a few places. Like different cutscenes and spelling corrections that were made etc. --ChaosSorcerer91 18:51, August 20 2006 (GMT)


 * That's cool, I'd love to see this list. I think it should be added too. Shamess 16:29, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Gackt
I can't confirm this for every difficulty level, but in the Tanker level on Easy, in the last hallway (before the hold with the marines), there is a Gurlukovich soldier listening to music. You can see him dancing down the hallway and hear the music (though muted) when you get near him. When you take his dog tag, it reads Gackt. Is this a noteworthy reference?206.53.68.186 23:54, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure it's especially deserving of entry into the Trivia section, TBH. There's too many easter eggs in MGS2 to start including little ones like that. Hyperspacey 01:38, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Not entirely correct...
In the intro it's been said that "Chronologically, the game is followed by Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots.". I disagree that this is fact.

Mostly because very little is know about MGS4 yet - it could be set in an alternate reality purely a VR mission for all we know. Secondly, after MGS4, MGS5 could come out and be in the middle of both MGS2 and MGS4, so it wouldn't be chronologically following. These are unlikely but whilst we know almost nothing (to be fair, we only have the trailer for evidence and last time the trailer for MGS2 was quite random) about MGS4 and so I propose this line be taken out. Shamess 16:28, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. While, yes, another came could be an interquel between them, that could happen in any series, and so it's out of place to assume that just because it could happen, it's best to assum it will. MGS4 says "X years after Big Shell"; it follows MGS2 as much as it needs to to make that statement correct. Asasa64 22:34, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Triva
Since triva is too long I think we should remove the paragraph starting... "The ability to throw grenades round corners and centre the screen via" Since, it needs to be cited, so it may not even be true and it's also one of the largest paragraphs in the section. And if it matters, it was the only paragraph I really didn't feel like reading because it looked boring. Shamess 16:46, 22 September 2006 (UTC)


 * It's true, but short of asking Konami to undelete the BBSes it's unsourceable. It's also AFAIK one of the few examples of a non-PC game being substantially modified based on user input. But anyway, no way to source it. TBH, the whole section should go, some of it is either workable into the article, self-evident, obvious, or not especially interesting. Hyperspacey 02:41, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

S3 plan
"S3 Plan" redirects here, but it is not explained what this term stands for in the article text. Either the redirect should be deleted or this article should be amended. —msikma &lt;user_talk:msikma&gt; 21:34, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
 * What a terrible redirect. -- Steel 21:38, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
 * S3 originally stood for Solid Snake Simulation, meaning that the big shell project was a way to show that any soldier, if placed in the right situation, could be exactly like Solid Snake, as revealed by Revolver Ocelot. However, later on, "Colonel Cambell" reveals that it actually stands for Selection for Societal Sanity, and that everyone he had been talking to over his Codec was computer AI, and the point of it all was to see if the public could rally behind a hero like Snake with the hero on the leash of the AI generated Patriots. The AI is coming from GW, the supercomputer that is the centerpiece of the Arsenal Gear under the Big Shell that Raiden's missio took place on. Ocelot4 16:39, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Reference?!
1. The Eyes Have It. Penny Arcade (2000). Retrieved on 28 August 2006. http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2000/05/12 ^^^

Sure, it's related to the Sons of Liberty trailer, but I fail to see how this is a reliable source that contributes anything to this article. I have taken the liberty to remove it.

75.4.212.202 03:34, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Excised Plot Details
Is there anyway we could work that section into a Development piece? At present it's pretty much a semi-unsourced list of trivia, which doesn't make for a good read. Hyperspacey 10:00, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Probably, but the question is what to keep and what not to

†he Bread 00:30, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd suggest combining a lot of it into a mention of the game's references to City of Glass, and the post-9/11 changes to the title should be gathered together too. Much of the rest is trivial. Hyperspacey 17:46, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

System requirements
someone can put the System requirements for the PC version on Substance?--ometzit&lt;col&gt; 21:33, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Not really an encyclopedic topic. A quick google reveals requirements here. Sockatume 21:01, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * no but it must be added in the infobox--ometzit&lt;col&gt; 21:33, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I keep forgetting about those, sorry. Sockatume 21:47, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Request for a development section
I think that it would be really good for the article if we included a development section like on the MGS3 page, we could use 1up.com's cover story for MGS2 as a source. Metal gear ninty 12:05, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Perception of Reality
I recently completed Metal Gear Solid 2 and tried to find an analysis on its interesting issues about perception of reality, but didn't see it in the Plout Outline. Even though it was mentioned in "Fan Reaction", wouldn't the perception of reality by Jack and what surrounds him be an integral part of the storyline? The last 2 hours primarily revolve around that and Snake gives a whole lecture on it. Zero_ April 16th-ish.

Read the link at the bottom page the "gene and meme" one, this will cover what you are looking for. Metal gear ninty 11:40, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Spoiler Tags?
Shouldn't there be spoiler tags on this article? SolidShroom 02:58, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


 * They've fallen out of favour recently, I think I might put them up for TFD


 * †he Bread 04:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I was just thinking that. There should definately be spoiler tags. Shamess 11:52, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * When a section is titled "plot" or "story" it is pretty obvious there will be spoilers


 * †he Bread 02:03, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Joy Revision
I believe I read that the "Substance" title is indeed taken from Kojima's notable love of English misery-pop, but I can't find a ref yet- it's probably in Hideoblog. I'll try to source it.

Needs some work?
Compared to Metal Gear Solid, Metal Gear Solid 3, and Metal Gear Solid 4 this article's a bit thin on references and could do with some tightening up. I know there's a posse of MGS editors on here, so could we see about bringing this thing up to the same standard as the others? Sockatume 14:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

This one should probably be the best, with all the controversy and what not, not to mention all of the inside info released to accompany it

†he Bread 06:04, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

The 43rd President: George Sears (Solidus) vs. George W. Bush
Who do you think would be a better President? Although Solidus was "evil," I think he'd be a bit more competent. --68.195.140.189 21:14, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Just commenting to say that you shouldn't use these pages for discussion of the game; only talk about the article. Have a nice day ^^; Shamess 09:28, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Critical Response...
I think the Response section should include some of the factors the game was marked down on. Namely its storyline and change of protagonist. SuperSonicTH 02:16, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes I agree. I thought the muddled and overly complicated ending was a let down for many gamers and the game was criticised for said problems. Magic Pickle 14:24, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I also agree. The Critical Response section as it stands now whitewashes these facts.  Most people I know rate the game as average because the graphics and gameplay were fantastic while the characters and story were convoluted and lame.  This game is not, by any means, universally acclaimed. KyuzoGator 20:22, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Your best bet is to find two or three reliable sources to cite per point you wish to make. See for example the Reaction section on The Matrix. Metacritic is a good start, although its scoring reflects near-universal praise for the game. Sockatume 20:29, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Well I have a problem here - the criticism I read that the plot and endless cut scenes were detrimental to the game were broadcast on GameCentral' a UK teletext service, written by games journalists. I could source them, but there is no archive (teletext refresh their pages everyday and the old pages disappear) - therefore no-one could see the ref for themselves. Magic Pickle 23:11, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * A verifiable source would be needed, I'm afraid. But it's a big Internet and there must be somewhere to source the info.Hyperspacey 16:29, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * How about response on how the PC version doesn't support Radeon video cards (Don't talk to me about the patch -- not even the patch will fix it for me, on both a 9600XT and 9800XT, unless I'm running Windows Server 2003), and the almost unplayable default key config... with an unintuitive interface for changing the keys. Overall, the PC port was completely half-assed and horrible. Ahanix1989 02:01, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I've successfully patched my MGS2:S copy and I'm running a Radeon x1300, I don't know what you did wrong. SuperSonicTH

Indeed a paragraph detailing the response on the PC platform should be added, the game got pretty poor scores (usually 50-60%) range in the UK gaming magazines, this is a nice counter weight to the overly hyped console reviews for the game. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.199.31.36 (talk) 21:28, 8 October 2007 (UTC)