Talk:Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty/Archive 2

Added info about unused scenes/items.
I added a section about the demo version of MGS2 which contained the FAMAS weapon. I also added a mention of a few deleted cutscenes in the excised material section.

This talks about the unused cutscenes. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0249008/alternateversions

This lists a game enhancer cheat to access the FAMAS weapon in the demo. http://www.gamedaily.com/metal-gear-solid-2-sons-of-liberty/playstation-2/game-cheats/1245

This mentions the disc to confirm it exists. http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/adventure/metalgearsolid2sonsol/news.html?sid=2662593

I would of added some of these as references but I don't know how to do that yet.--Iamstillhiro1112 16:18, 13 January 2007 (UTC)


 * As IMDB is a user-edited source, I'm not sure of the correctness of some of the material- in fact, a few entries are downright incorrect. I think a Development article would be the correct place to leave some of this material, given it is mostly concerned with material excised during development and not available to the public. We really need one to get this article up to FA standard. Hyperspacey 04:27, 15 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm sure that there are better sources out there, but I can't find them. I owned that disc tho, and I imagine there are several more who do as I think the game it was packaged with recieved greatest hits status. IMDB wasn't my only reference there as you can see. The second link confirmed a FAMAS weapon in the demo, and the 3rd link confirmed the demo exists.--Iamstillhiro1112 16:50, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I Come Bearing Plot
I've done a substantial re-write of the Plot section, primarily due to it being a bit weak. I think it needs a fresh set of eyes run over it and full referencing, too, which I may get to. If this article is to make FA- and I'd love the complete trilogy to do so- it'll have to happen sooner or later.

What I mean to say is... HELP! Hyperspacey 02:47, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I caught some spelling errors and read over it. I guess it's pretty thorough, but I think some better clarification of who Peter Stillman is might be a good idea; just mentioning he's a bomb expert I think would be good even if it is clarified in the characters section.
 * OEP 04:53, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Plot-tagged by The Bread, so perhaps it could do with trimming- but it still only just covers the main events of the title, on par with plot summaries in MGS1 and MGS2. It is long, but the game is probably the most plot-heavy MG title so far. Hyperspacey


 * Re-read it, the division just made it seem longer, now comparing it to MGS3 and MGS the plot length is fine. It does have twice the plot of MGS and about 1000000 times the plot of Metal Gear. Just source it with some quotes, there's a game script at Gamefaqs


 * †he Bread 3000  23:00, 5 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I think the way I've broken it up makes it seem epic- but it cuts the game into its "acts" a bit better. Sourcing it tomorrow after noon. Hyperspacey 23:18, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Well if you need any help, don't hesititate to ask


 * †he Bread 3000 03:58, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Okay that's it about half-done. If anyone wants to dive in and take over, there's a fine source for the summary .Hyperspacey 02:05, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

It's her-uuuuuge! Surely it can be trimmed somewhat? Sockatume 23:57, 14 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Suggestions would be welcome, but I've already left out everything that isn't a key plot point. It's got more twists than a bowl of spaghetti. In other news, I am NEVER citing a plot section up EVER AGAIN. Hyperspacey 17:44, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm chipping the summary down bit by bit at the moment, there's a sentence here and there that isn't really valuable. Should be about 20-30% smaller than the initial version by the time I'm done. Hyperspacey 01:11, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Why is nothing mentioned about references to the Militia known as "Sons of Liberty"? 97.122.191.253 (talk) 05:03, 12 May 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.122.191.253 (talk) 05:01, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Ending
I was looking over the article quickly when i noticed that some of the information regarding the final portion of the game seemed alien to me despite my having, what I would consider, a fair understanding of the game's story. The first is rather minor, in the synopsis it says that Raiden is contacted by "The Patriots, via another AI in another Arsenal Gear". I don't remember any definite mention of a second Arsenal Gear. If there was a second Arsenal Gear then the destruction of the first had no impact on anything of real relevance. When i saw the ending, which I have more than once, though probably not as much as many, I had a sense that The Patriots had been at least pushed back slightly. If I'm wrong I'd be happy to be corrected but I don't remember any mention of a second Arsenal Gear and feel that implying there to be one without any citation or evidence when the game does not imply that on its own is a mistake. If this statement comes from te fact that there seems to be an identical AI and it is assumed there must be an Arsenal Gear to go along with it I somewhat understand but I had always assumed that the AI was operating out of some other Patriot controled computer as a backup, prototype, or as a different part of a mainframe. The second one is actually a question. Due to the people fading in at the end of the game I had concluded that Raiden's nanomachines had altered his perception of events, and thus ours as we learn the truth through his perception. This is partially a rhetorical question and partially an honest one: how much of MGS2 can we trust to be accurate in its depiction of events. I always assumed that the major shift was when Raiden is knocked uncontious but even that is just speculation. If I have a point I think it might be worth mentioning, if only in passing, if not a responce to this would clear up my confusion and anyone who thought likewise upon reading it. Thanks.


 * I believe that JFK (the second AI) was aboard a second Arsenal prototype, but I'll check the gamescript on Document to confirm. And yes, one of the key ideas of MGS2 is that Raiden, and therefore the player, may well be experiencing events completely different to how they occured, and I'll try to mention that somewhere in the article. Cheers for the pointers. Hyperspacey 01:17, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 * According to the game script: Raiden : How's that possible?! The AI was destroyed! // Colonel : Only GW... [Implying that there are other sets of Arsenal and AI. In this case, the "speaker" is JFK.]. So it's certainly meant to be implied that there is another Arsenal and another AI. Hyperspacey 15:30, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
 * And how can we be sure that it's "certainly meant to be implied" that another Arsenal exists? Sounds like all theories to me. 213.67.208.91 13:10, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * As no one has said anything after that, I'm going to remove that part now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.225.4.220 (talk) 17:05, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Read the Metal Gear Solid 4 article or play the game to find out. And the AIs are JD AL TJ GW TR and not JFKFfgamera (talk) 09:30, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Plot Tags
Do we honestly need to have tags warning that there are plot details in a section headed "Plot"? Hyperspacey 16:32, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

plant chapter
i may not have ever played the game but somehow i don't think this part is in there:

"The player finds himself in control of Raiden assigned to incapitate that f***ing psychotic bitch hoffus's mom, supposedly operating under a reformed FOXHOUND two years after the Tanker Chapter on April 29,2009."

could someone whos played the game write what your supposed to do?

S3
I wish the S3 plan were real. It would certainly make maintaining this site easier :P --164.106.49.105 15:50, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Selection for Societal Sanity=real or Solid Snake Simulation=real? Ffgamera (talk) 09:27, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

VB?
What does 'vb' mean? Its used extensively in this entry? --72.202.150.92 14:05, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I think you might be referring to VR, which stands for Virtual Reality. --User:Puddles26 —Preceding comment was added at 02:09, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Virtual Reality Training, to be precise. If you want a glance, play Metal Gear Solid: Special Missions or Metal Gear Solid: VR Missions.Ffgamera (talk) 09:26, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

I most likely screwed up
So in the Tanker section, there was a ton of random capitals. I went in and fixed them. I found a bunch of bizzare dialogue in the edit screen, which I deleted, thus leaving only a capitally-correct summary of the Tanker section.

Then (something I should have done beforehand), I noted way at the bottom in the references screen, lines and lines of dialogue put in as references.

Apart from referencing dialogue, which I do not understand, isn't this copyright violation? So much text from the game can't be legal. Lots42 17:16, 17 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi, I have undone your changes because the changes you were correcting were actually some vandalism left over by another user so I have reverted your change and the vandalist's change so the original copy is there.


 * I don't know if this is copyright violation exactly since (apparently) the dialogue is where they are getting their source of information. I don't have much experience on this subject but it seems to be okay. Strongsauce 18:33, 17 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Seems odd to me. The game says this paticular Metal Gear is supposed to be able to defeat the other ones. Fine. But why do we need the dialogue? Isn't it enough it's in the game? Lots42 00:34, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The idea is that the plot points can be confirmed by reference to the game's script without people having to fire up their copy of the game and reaching the relevant section. It's pedantic and completist but it's important to provide attribution. 137.195.68.169 (talk) 12:58, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

date of the Tanker Chapter.
Ok, for the last time the Tanker Chapter takes place on August 8th, 2007 not March 22nd. The IDW comics is not canonical...so let's get that straight. We can not base our information of Metal Gear Solid 2 based on a comic book adaption. It would be like basing the mythos of Middle Earth based off of what was in the movie. According to the game (when you input the pictures of Ray into the computer) the date says August 8th.

Yankeeboy1865 06:02, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:935764 20070822 screen005.jpg
Image:935764 20070822 screen005.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 09:47, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Huh?
Can someone tell about Konami's top secret site (it unlocks when the player collect all Dog Tags in the game) Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.31.195.158 (talk) 05:43, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Arsenal
What happens to Arsenal? No, really, in the ending they just leave it lying in the middle of Manhattan and nobody even notices. 75.41.37.207 (talk) 12:43, 1 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Let me do the thinking for you: it'll get cleaned up. --Soetermans (talk) 12:05, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Nobody even notices? Did you not see all those people running out to look and Solidus being taken away? No? We will most likely find out in MGS4. 86.151.231.119 (talk) 15:04, 22 January 2008 (UTC)


 * It was supposed to crash into Manhattan, but after the events of September 11, the scene was scrapped.Ffgamera (talk) 09:19, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Philosophy Section
Great article, great to have a Professor recognise the power of the MGS games.

Very small (-almost insignificant) issue within it; 1, 3/4 of the way through the third paragraph, the word 'siblings' is used, should this not be children or "those who follow" rather than brothers and sisters?; 2, at the end of the fifth paragraph there is mention of Raiden's child, unless there is evidence to cite, could this be corrected - I was not aware of Raiden having children, I have even thought him to be sterile/pure/virgin (stated by Kojima, or another production crew member) (I may be mistaken!)

Finally, could there be some general house-keeping, in that sections are cited, anyone should feel free to contribute. Work this fine cannot have any flaws, and this article in particular should be preserved on Wiki.

A possible source for citing could be the 'MGS Theme' essay, that was hosted by www.metalgearsolid.org before their server expired, (if there is a record of this somewhere (it was called 'Meme, Gene, Sense and Scene') this would, again, be an ideal source/citation)

Cheers, fantastic article 00iddy (talk) 11:13, 8 January 2008 (UTC)


 * See WP:OR. If/when that material is published, it can be referred to in the article, but Wikipedia is not a place to print your essays, no matter how qualified you are. 137.195.68.169 (talk) 12:54, 8 January 2008 (UTC)


 * To clear this up:


 * Material can often be put together in a way that constitutes original research even if its individual elements have been published by reliable sources. Synthesizing material occurs when an editor tries to demonstrate the validity of his or her own conclusions by citing sources that when put together serve to advance the editor's position. If the sources cited do not explicitly reach the same conclusion, or if the sources cited are not directly related to the subject of the article, then the editor is engaged in original research. Summarizing source material without changing its meaning is not synthesis — it is good editing. Best practice is to write Wikipedia articles by taking claims made by different reliable sources about a subject and putting those claims in our own words on an article page, with each claim attributable to a source that makes that claim explicitly.


 * While there's no doubt that MGS2 can be subject to thorough scholarly analysis, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a philosophy journal or an open space for you to stick up material for your class, Mr. MGS2Fan32.Sockatume (talk) 08:25, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Minor Points
Hi guys, this was my first Wikipedia edit and I just wanted to make sure the (small) changes I made were accurate. First of all I added into the description of Metal Gear RAY in the Tanker Chapter that it was intended as a counter-Metal Gear weapon; the quote supporting this was already there for some reason, so it seemed like clarification was appropriate.

Also, I added in that in the Raiden-RAY boss fight, Raiden is fighting the battalion of 25 RAY units (a number mentioned several times IIRC) assigned to guard the Big Shell... but since he stops before fighting all of them regardless of which difficulty level you play on (again IIRC), should I clarify that point?

And just now I also mentioned that Solidus adopted Raiden as his son during an unspecified African (not sure if it was confirmed, but strongly suggested by Raiden's nickname as White Devil and stuff like that) civil war. Again, I'm not sure if this was necessary, but it seems to me that the knowledge that Raiden and Solidus met on the battlefield, and that Raiden grew up fighting, are fairly important plot points.
 * It is the Liberian Civil War as proven by Rosemary in MGS4.Ffgamera (talk) 09:21, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry if this is insignificant or something; I'm a new user so I'd like to irritate as few people as possible.

Funkyhamster (talk) 00:10, 7 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I have moved this section down to the bottom of the talk page.
 * Your last edit about Raiden being a child soldier is not information that is necessarily important. The original edit that was there was fine. Wikipedia is not suppose to have articles where every last detail about the subject is in there. In this situation, the information about Raiden probably belongs in the Raiden article (which it is). You seem to be editing in good faith but just keep in mind that things (especially plots and storylines) should be as concise as possible. Strongsauce (talk) 00:47, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Hey, did anyone else notice that the source talking about the GW virus was citation number 61? Haha, I just thought that was funny. Why isn't that mentioned in the article? It's a pretty widespread joke around the web. "I need scissors! 61!" ForestAngel (talk) 20:27, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Uh oh
Someone removed all the info for Metal Gear Solid 2: The Sons Of Liberty Although I have played and beat it multiple times I cannot put all the info that used to be there.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mad Mike 001 (talk • contribs) 21:47, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Things like that can be easily removed by clicking on the History tab and reverting the article back to its orignal state. Ffgamera (talk) 10:09, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Graphic novel?
The Metal Gear Solid template makes mention of a graphic novel for MGS2, and redirects to this article, yet there is no mention of it on this page? Is there any actual proof of such a digital novel being released? I know there was one done for Twin Snakes, but I've heard no mention of this one. If there is one, why no mention on the article? ≈  The Haunted Angel  01:36, 24 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Its only scheduled in Japan it seems as a DVD film. Jonny2x4 (talk) 17:12, 16 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Ah alright, thanks for the info. ≈  The Haunted Angel  17:09, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Quick failed Good Article nomination
Due to the presence of cleanup tags, in this case , I have quick failed this article's nomination without completing a full review. About half of the article is sourced correctly, however there sections of unsourced material that needs to be sourced if this article is to pass a nomination, please attend this issue and feel free to re-nominate, thanks for your work so far. -  Ca ri bb e a  n ~ H. Q.  20:53, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

President's death
I haven't played this for a while but the plot describes the President being killed by Ocelot shortly after revealing the secret of Arsenal Gear, but I'm sure the President makes Raiden shoot him for some reason?

Also it completely leaves out that sub-plot with the presidential aid and his beeping pacemaker.Onkeh (talk) 13:17, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

While the scene at first looks like Raiden shot the President, it's soon revealed that the bullet came from Ocelot's gun, not Raiden's. Although it does seem like Ocelot blamed Raiden for it, since DeadCell (Vamp in this case) blames Raiden for the President's death - unaware that it was in fact Ocelot. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.167.215.253 (talk) 19:36, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Raiden asks why Ocelot did it and Ocelot replies that his finger must have slipped and calls Raiden "Carrier Boy" Ffgamera (talk) 10:10, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

'Easter Eggs' I suppose.
Couldn't someone add in the various easter eggs? And little Innuendo?s? Like in Arsenal gear when Raiden and Snake meet, They meet in the Rectum (Arse) Of Arsenal Gear, Thus hinting that they're both gay.
 * Don't be ridiculous, Raiden is engaged to Rosemary; and Snake likes Meryl for a bit.Ffgamera (talk) 09:24, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
 * It's a game, Anything can happen on there, Just because they have women intrested dosent mean the makers can play around with innuendo's. It;s their game,Thay can do what they like with it. Also i forgot to mention, It is ment inpurley when Raiden recives a Sword in the Rectum from Snake. think about it. NekoKiyo (talk) 11:44, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Also, In the Tanker chapter if you get snake to take pictures of the various women posters in the planter, Otacon gets rather, Well, Wierd about it, And once they're taken Snake makes rathr perverted noises, Thus hinting Snake is a pervert. NekoKiyo (talk) 15:13, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
 * ... This is bollocks. Firstly, adding random easter eggs counts as trivia, secondly, making this assumptions is original research, not to mention a load of crap. ≈  The Haunted Angel  12:03, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Play the game, Try it yourself, ;sigh; I've done this first hand, And so have many others, How is it Bollocks? Konami have a reputation for haveing a sence of humor. I could throw in some Referances from MGS(PSX) To back myself up, But thats going a little off topic. NekoKiyo (talk) 02:10, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Fission Mailed. WTF???
I don't know why, but I did a search for "Fission Mailed" on Wikipedia. I was brought here. Why? --MasterOfTheXP (talk) 19:06, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

In the game, there is a part where the game attempts to trick the user into thinking that they have lost by showing the usual screen accompanying the player's death. However, instead of the usual "Mission Failed" it says "Fission Mailed" and the game is still playing in a small screen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.129.148.191 (talk) 21:35, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Cypher
The Cypher in the game is a real thing: See Sikorsky Cypher. I'd put a link to that page in this article, but can't think where to put it. JaffaCakeLover (talk) 12:24, 24 January 2010 (UTC)