Talk:Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots/Archive 1

Source
Sockatume 18:15, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The final Metal Gear Solid?
Does anyone else fuckin wonder if this is going to be the final MGS? Or at least maybe the last one in this continuity? With Snake's age accelerating, unless he finds a miracle cure of a fountain of youth (type of thing), how much more could Snake go on possibly do you think? I think its very interesting.--Kiyosuki 04:21, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, considering that Kojima has essentialy promised not to kill off Snake in this entry, it doesn't necessarily mean the accelerated aging is going to prove unrreversible or even fatal. (It is Kojima, after all...) New games could also take place between existing entries, or sequals to some of the non-canonical entries could be made, perhaps a whole new timeline? Of course, the series could also continue with the introduction of a new protagonist, perhaps Raiden will return in a similar fasion to ZOE's Leo Stenbuck, matured, self aware, and easier to respect.

Kojima stated that he would like to leave the MGS franchise, and create other original projects. Kojima also said Raiden is confirmed to have a gay lover in this game. In my opinion, it would be better if the forth installment of this great series, wil be its last. It has great value among today's games. The long continuity of it, could only spoil the "individuality" of every installment in the series. (Anonymous User)

Not to mention that a series becomes stale after too many sequels and prequels. If you willingly leave a series (that is, not milk the cash out of it until the series becomes a dead cow) your fans will respect you a heck of a lot more. It may bum some people out that it's all over, but it'll save you from a truckload of humiliation. Village Baka 07:39, 13 April 2006 (UTC) kgkugkug
 * I think this is one of the final series in storyline of MGS but like MGS3 a new MGS will come which will play with a different Snake or timeline. But man seeing this series of Metal Gear Solid makes me hate my self for buying a xbox, ow well I'll just buy a PS3 for this one. Baku87 22:45, 9 May 2006 (UTC)Baku87

In an interview in OPS2, thought Kojima specificly said he was going to kill off Snake so he can finally stop making MGS games. :( --AmyRoxYou&#39;reSox 10:48, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

That IGN article with speculation
Ack. I'm not surprised that IGN managed to string out an "absolutely everything we know about MGS4" article to four whole pages. It was 95% prior knowledge, of which a good deal was wrong (they completely missed Vamp's survival). Cheers to whoever removed that link. Sockatume 01:05, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

E3 2005 trailer desc. section
I just removed this section from the article:

''During E3 2005, there was an announcement video that uses the MGS3 engine which is a promotional trailer for MGS4, but it turned out to be a silent-comedy-added-with-laugh-track-and-background-50's-music with using MGS characters/enemies as the Kojima Productions staff. It turns out that Kojima will direct the game (Which had a huge round of a applause in the movie), but it turns out that Solid Snake was Raiden taking off the mask and giving us a stereotypical "handsome guy" wink (Then the audience in the trailer was disgusted). But then it moves on to the next scene where Raiden and a Sam Fisher look a like trying to take over the "MAIN CHARACTER" chair (Which is a main character for MGS4). After the goofy fight, the Sam Fisher look a like turns out to be Solid Snake in a MGS3 Sneaking Suit smoking his cigarette while he's on the "MAIN CHARACTER" chair. After that, it shows the MGS4 logo and it shows Snake walking away turning the lights off. But the trailer ends by showing Raiden getting up, and the screen goes black, but we can hear he's sitting on the "MAIN CHARACTER" chair with a "Ding" noise. It turns out to be that it's a possibility that MGS4's gonna have multiple characters to use.''

''The E3 2005 trailer looks like some kinda 50's film quality, there's not even a single dialogue but there is alot of humor in it, more like a 50's Comedy Theatre Play. The trailer basically shows us a humourous view of what's gonna be in MGS4.''

Besides being way too descriptive and redundant, it's obviously not written very well (informal speech and so on). I decided to be bold and just get rid of it. If anyone thinks it can be fixed up and put back, go for it, by all means. - DoubleCross 09:02, August 16, 2005 (UTC) gh


 * I must agree, it appears to be an unrevised interpreation written by a child who is watching the video as he types. It states only opinions and would be better interpretated, structured and placed into the article as seperate information. Also on a personal note i believe his concepts were incredibly incorrect and did not attempt to scratch the surface of the video. If anyone considers rewriting it note such opinions as "The trailer basically shows us a humourous view of what's gonna be in MGS4." are quite obviosuly written in the obvious and with no thought. For example in this case, though a small proportion of game play is shown, the video actually documented the people behind it and the cast, as it used MGS2 characters, not updated models. The humour is both commonplace at E3 and Kojimas personal lighten the modd attitude. etc etc. I agree wit hthe removal and hope my words are considered in the event of a rewrite. --The Pain 23:49, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Initial Reaction
''Upon first looking at the aged Solid Snake, most gamers erupted with a series of "I hate the mustache" topics on forums all over the internet. Most argued that the supposedly two year difference between Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty and Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots is not enough time for Snake to age at that significant of a rate, even with his accelerated aging. The speculation was disolved when the new trailer was released, stating that MGS4 is "X" amount of years after the Big Shell. "X" means and unknown number, though some fans seem to believe it represents the number 10 in Roman Numeral format. This debate is still raging over several forums, most notably the one on the gaming website GameFAQs.''

I considered deleting this, for the bad spelling as much as anything else but also because it seems... strange. As I understand it, the mustache (and Snake's older appearance) was only revealed in the trailer, so the idea that the trailer brought an end to discussion of this... Were in-game snaps released before the trailer was? If I find time later, I might get round to editing this section myself but if anyone's got some clarification on this, I'd appreciate it. --Hayter 14:24, 19 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I second the deletion. It seems way too fanboyishly written and not encyclopedic to me. Nobody cares about what idiots at GameFAQs have to say. Besides, I'm pretty sure anyone with half brain knows that the X is used as a variable and not as roman numeral (outside of movie sequels, who hell uses roman numerals nowadays to count years). Jonny2x4 22:52, 19 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Having added the numeral suggestion myself (in another section of the article), I suppose I'd best defend it. Numerous analog clocks and watches still made employ roman numerals - the majority of British schoolchildren are taught them in Primary school (well, I was taught in Scotland which has a different syllabus to England & Wales) and they are used in pop culture all the time. What Superbowl are we on now? Star Trek VI, Ghostbusters II etc. Many TV and film production companies mark their ending credit screen with the year in Roman Numerals; for an example look at any BBC-made program. Aside from all this though, Kojima is known for misleading his audience (Raiden as a PC and this trailer's initial showing of FPS gameplay) - 'X' could very well refer to the Roman Nuneral for ten. Aside from anything else, this would place MGS4 in 2017, when Snake would be 45, if my sum is correct, and therefore more likely to be looking 'old.' - Hayter 11:21, 20 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I've since created a Fan Speculation section and covered this under a timeline subsection. Regarding my above statement however, assuming it is indicative of 10, then the game would take place in 2019 when Snake is 47. My original guess was based upon the time of the Tanker incident rather than the Big Shell. - Hayter 13:34, 20 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Except for the fact that the Japanese captions on the trailer when "X years" appears says "suunen go" (数年後), which means "several years after", a generic way of stating that certain amount of time (years) has passed without mentioning a specific number. This is proof enough (for me) that the X is a variable here and not to mark an event.Jonny2x4 18:47, 21 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm vaguely offended that we were just collectively patronized on a subject as mundane as Roman numerals. - 210.49.214.102 08:19, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Sign up - I'll patronise you on something more interesting, if you read simple explanations as patronisation. If not, you'll survive. - Hayter 00:19, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Everyone knows that Kojima likes to trick his fans in his trailers, so the arguments and speculation over the internet is pretty pointless. The "X" years everyone is referring ti is a trick, Kojima uses it to make fans think, "How many years is that?" As it could be 10, or it could be 1, or any other amount of years. My theory is the man we see is actually Big Boss, but taken back his former name of Snake. I'm not sure how he fits in to it, but we assume its Solid Snake looking old because Big oss is supposedly dead, but he likes to twist the story so maybe big boss is still alive. I don't believe its 10 years after, as I'd feel disappointed, I want to know what happened straight after MGS2, Snake jumps on Metal Gear and then what, if its 10 years after, then what has happened for the last 10 years? Myave they would release another prequel for MGS5 then. - Chippy 16:11, 24 Feburary 2006


 * Sorry Chippy, but you're so far from being right that you couldn't even see whats right if you had a map and a special magic compass that showed you what was right. It is NOT Big Boss as hideo kojima has confirmed. Claiming that it is not on the sole basis of 'Kojima likes to mess with us' is as rediculous as insisting the moonlandng were fake because the government just cover up all the evidence that it was fake. Basically you are wrong, it is not Big Boss, it IS Solid Snake and it is at somepoint after MGS2. - Simondrake 16:21, 24 February 2006


 * Chippy, Kojima doesn't like to trick people in his trailers. He did what he did for the MGS2 trailers because it fit in with the theme of the story: editing and changing digital information. That's the only reason he did that. He doesn't like to trick people, he doesn't like to make stuff up on a whim. He's not an idiot. There is no indication at all that Big Boss is alive or coming back because he's dead. His body is in a stasis somewhere in some lab. The reason it says "X years after Big Shell" in the trailer is because Kojima himself doesn't know how far exactly it will take place after Big Shell. He said this in an interview. - StealthHit06 13:21, 21 March 2006

Re: Initial Reaction
Yes. Several screen captures of the teaser trailer were shown in Famitsu magazine's article on MGS4. The article was scanned by some of the magazine's buyers and later spread across internet forums, a day or two prior to the showing of the teaser trailer at the Tokyo Game Show.

Eye Boy
''Around the same time the Tokyo Game Show 2005 convention took place, Kojima released the most realistic graphical pre-rendered design ever made up to this point on any next-generation console. It was a demonstration of an "eye", the graphical capability that the final product of Metal Gear Solid 4 would have.''

Is this true? No reference link has been given. Admittedly I haven't had time to read much game industry news of late, but I haven't heard about this. A quick google doesn't turn up anything either. - Hayter 20:35, 13 October 2005 (UTC)


 * The trailer shown at TGS 2005 was all done within the game's engine, just like the "cutscenes" in MGS, MGS2, and The Twin Snakes. After the trailer was shown, Kojima showed the same scene agin, but demonstrated in-game camera movement, and made snake do some things he didn't do in the trailer.
 * The meanings of "prerendered" and "running real time" have become incresingly foggy since the E3 2005 Killzone (Working Title) PS3 trailer.
 * My understanding is that "prerendered" means each frame was made within the game engine, and then exported to different software to run at more FPS (Frames Per Second), and that "running real time" means that the footage is running on an accurate representaion of the final console hardware, and the machine is actually generating images/polygons at the time the footage is shown. "running real time" does not mean that there is a human player directing onscreen movement/moving the camera through the action (Killzone WT trailer). - Forte 16:30, 21 October 2005


 * No, I meant specifically the demonstration of an eye - did it take place? I'm led to believe not by the wording of the edit. Surely if Kojima were going to release such an impressive example, he'd do it at TGS. Even if it's true, "the most realistic...design ever made..." is clearly a matter of opinion and needs changing. - Hayter 15:34, 23 October 2005 (UTC)


 * This was a hoax. I saw it on the forums at several gaming sites, but such a thing never actually happened.--DA Roc 03:27, 11 November 2005 (UTC)


 * The closest I could find was a reference at IGN about a real-time demo done with a PS3 devkit. In order to show that the MGS4 footage wasn't prerendered and then altered (ie. sped up), parts of the demo sequence were replayed and paused with a "live" camera being moved around the scene.


 * Tangentially, the 'eyepatch' Snake wears is clearly an augmentation. Aside from being mentioned in articles on gaming sites, the Solid Eye System is clearly demonstrated in the TGS 2005 trailer. The camera zooms in on Snakes's face, allowing you to read the words on the patch. Then you see Snake turn it on, followed by a first person view of what he sees. It appears to be something akin to thermal goggles. --Scoops 17:23, 12 November 2005 (UTC)


 * A little more than thermal goggles. It seems to give real time combat information.  Something that can give a soldier on a battlefield a tactical advantage, or overwhelm them with too much information.  To me it seems to more closely resemble the tactical system used in Apache attack helicopters.  Just my musings.TotalTommyTerror 18:29, 16 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Though the eyepatch obviously gives advanced tactical feedback, it is not revealed what sort of "augmentation" this is. Has Snake's eye been altered or replaced with cybernetic implants allowing connections with devices such as this, or does it just sit over a normal eye and relay the information via a screen. Though Snake's vision is clearly enhanced for the situation, it has not been revealed whether this is due solely to the patch or successful intergration of biological and technological components. - Hayter 19:15, 17 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I wrote my earlier comment while I was still struggling to understand the wording used in the article. After I wrote that, I re-read the article, realized what it was trying to convey, and re-wrote that part in a (hopefully) clearer way. It looked, at a quick glance, like it wasn't clear that the eyepatch was an augmentation. Not just that it wasn't clear if he'd lost the eye. - Le Scoopertemp [  tk  ] 01:30, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Odd paragraph

 * The September issue of Official PlayStation Magazine contains a handful of details: "describing the Kojima Productions title as "a cross between Rambo and Black Hawk Down," with Solid Snake apparently dropped into an urban warzone with artillery going crazy around him, taking out his cover. Buddy AI is said to be crucial this time around, while a new camera system will reportedly be an essential part of the experience."

Is the punctuation in this paragraph as it should be? Not having a copy of this magazine to check, my intuition leads me to think that it should read as follows:


 * The September issue of Official PlayStation Magazine contains a handful of details: describing the Kojima Productions title as "a cross between Rambo and Black Hawk Down, with Solid Snake apparently dropped into an urban warzone with artillery going crazy around him, taking out his cover. Buddy AI is said to be crucial this time around, while a new camera system will reportedly be an essential part of the experience."

Note the removal of two quotation marks. However, as I say, I can't be sure it doesn't read like that. If it does, who is the magazine quoting? Shouldn't that be noted? Anyway, I'll leave this for someone else to pick over. - 210.49.214.102 08:19, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Snake's illness?
I found that this addition was deleted yesterday

"One part of the trailer shows that Solid Snake falls into some sort of bloodsugar crisis. The pen-syringe he sticks in his neck shows that he had developed diabetes. Developers or designers, however, made a sort of mistake here- it is clearly some derivate of Insulin, but a closer look shows that it must be equivalent to either Nova Nordisk's Insulatard or Mixtard, or some other slow-working medication. If a solder with bloodsugar problems is indeed that good that he has to be sent to te battlefield, he should be equipped with rapid-developing NovoRapid or it's equivalent, and rapid-developing insulins are packed into dark-blue pen syringes with red tops, not the white ones."

The reason was "rv edits by 85.94.98.248. It is not clear from the trailer what illness he has, only that he is unwell".

Well, i must disagree with Scoops- no medication is packed in "pens" but insulin and its derivates. In addition, to support the deleted thesis, there is a fact that Snake sticks the medication in his neck muscle. That is pretty unusual way of treating high bloodsugar that is suggested when a man feels sight and other bloodsugar problems that has something to do with brain (blurry vision, fall of concentration, need to sleep) and needs to correct them before the other complications (dry mouth, tingling in libs). The syringe is identical to NovoLet pens (illy products have different rears), and the color of the rear seems to look green. So we not only know why he feels bad, but we know the exact medication type he uses.

I would, however, disagree with the thesis that he uses the "wrong" medication. Soldiers with hyperglycaemia are usually given two or more medications. One that is slow-working and used oce or twice a day, in order to stop hypoglicaemia from happening, and one that is rapid-working, if they feel particulary bad at the moment. Even if snake feels particulary bad at the moment, he may be using rapid working insulin (i think it was named ActRapid) packed in NovoLet pens with yellow rears. That would, however, put the game setting in 90s, when the drug was used, and later replaced with NovoRapid.

The third solution is less probable- ActRapid (or how it is called) is still used by the people that are alcoholic, because the combination of novorapid and alcohol can very often lead to severe hypoglicaemia (low blood sugar) that ends with hypoglicaemic coma.

One thing is sure - In trailer Snake uses something packed in NovoLet pen. Nothing but biosynthetic insulin is packed in NovoLet pens, and nothing but diabetes is cured with insulin.


 * Whilst it may turn out that Snake has some form of diabetes, and your reasoning is convincing, the fact remains that this game is set in the future. It could be any number of medicines that Snake takes, perhaps one not even invented today. Look at Star Trek, they have hyposprays that can contain any type of medication and can seemingly be used on any part of the body, with the upper arm and neck being favourite. It could be that this is something similar. Having a paragraph along the lines of, "this could perhaps suggest..." with the reasoning to follow, may be an option but we do not know Snake has diabetes. - Hayter 16:13, 2 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm talking about the syringe... there may be any medicine, thats great, but the syringe looks identical as one specific syringe packaging... Not the hypospray, not the this or next-gen NovoLets (first are dark blue, later are silver-grey), but the good ol' Novolet I hope you have the trailer, and the image of the original pen design is on (http://www.denmark.or.jp/jddc/img/steve/NovoLet-1.5.jpg). Forgive me if i am narrow-minded, but thinking of any other medicine packaged in NovoLet (and thus paying the unnecesarry licence for the pen design when youu can design your own) would be like packaging military radios in iPod cases. (85.94.98.248 00:51, 3 December 2005 (UTC))


 * I'd submit that the syringe Snake uses is likely an evolution of the syrettes long used by the military to deliver medication in the field. Considering this is ultimately a fictional universe, the game designers are free to take whatever technology they find and tweak it to suit their purposes. Real-world issues like licensing the packaging technology don't really enter into it. My problem is just that, from the delivery mechanism, you extrapolate many things not in evidence. I'd submit it is far more likely that Snake is taking some medication to control the FoxDie virus than to control diabetes. I have no problem with you noting that the syringe he uses looks like a modern-day insulin delivery mechanism (it is similar). I have the problem with you deducing that Snake must have diabetes because of it. - Le Scoopertemp [  tk  ] 01:04, 3 December 2005 (UTC)


 * This is going to sound appalling for a supposed fan of the series, but I'd forgotten about Foxdie when I wrote the above. Scoop's right - the odds are good that it's (the injection's) related to Foxdie. Sure, it might be diabetes, but we don't know either way. - Hayter 00:21, 4 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I think I agree with the FoxDie theory, but here is one I thought of. Is it possible that the injections could be some way of attempting to controll the effects of the advanced aging process due to the cloning? I wouldn't think that much could be done for it, but at the rate he would age with that condition, I'm sure there would be many negative effects on his capabilities on the field from the aging process.
 * Mask 19:34, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I didn't realise that the first symptom of hypoglycaemia was an unexpected coughing fit.

I thought that his symptoms were the result of his genetic structure breaking down. He IS a clone, after all... --SigmaX54 14:28, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I have been doing research on MGS (for a high school report) and I found two things that reinforce the clone syndrome theory. First, Liquid mentions the assymetry theory. I do not understand the thoery yet, but I believe this has something to do with it. Also, it is refered to that when theclones were manufactured, they were built with a genetic flaw that, later in life, would kill them. It was said that the snakes did not know when or what disease would kill them. The advanced aging could be from this as well. I appologize for not citing, but I never recorded these sites as they were not acceptable for my teacher's report (he hates websites, including wikipedia) HiddenMask 16:24, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

On the subject of the possible FoxDie effects: I feel that something should be added to this article regarding the possibility that Snake is now suffereing from FoxDie. I've been trying to edit in a quick line saying "Snake's illness could possibly be the symptoms of the FoxDie virus, which was set to a wildcard value by Naomi Hunter". Someone doesn't seem to like this, though, as it hasn't stayed there for more than a few hours at a time. Village Baka 18:12, 13 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The problem is likely that this is speculation, and that it's really only an educated guess that Foxdie is involved. Many Wikipedia people are very insistent that there be a source - if not something that says Foxdie is involved, then maybe educated guesses from GamePro or somebody in the field. Bcarlson33 23:33, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I know that. That's why I said "possibly", just to put it out there. I didn't say that it "probably was" or "definately was". I'd be all over anyone who wants to conclusively say that is is FoxDie, but there is nothing wrong with a small mention of it as a possibility. JUST a possibility. And you don't need the thumbs-up from GamePro to put something on Wikipedia. (O_o);; Village Baka 03:08, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The problem is that FoxDie symptoms aren't like the ones Snake has in the trailer. 200.112.160.47 00:43, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

X Years After the Big Shell
I added in the comment about Kojima stating that he's unsure as to how many years MGS4 takes place after MGS2. It's stated in an interview with him in the January 2005 issue of PSM, page 25. I can quote it if anyone wants to see.

--24.76.109.236 01:01, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Meme-Gene-Scene
I am researching info on the Meme Gene Scene themes of the MGS Series. I wonder if anyone could give me some ideas on where to find some information on these concepts as they relate to the games. The research is going to a report I am doing for school, but if it is sufficient I may add it as some extra details for the Metal Gear Solid articles. Thank you for any help you are willing to offer. HiddenMask 15:38, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok, The answer is quite simple: You see - MEME stands for "any unit of cultural information, which one mind transmits to another mind". It is quite clean that the MEME concept match to the MGS2 concept - the information (history, principles etc.) beyond the genes. GENE stands for the MGS1 concept - the whole hierarchy of being "written" by the patterns of our genes. It also tells us about the fight and struggle for ruling-out the effects of the genes. In my opinion, the MGS1 concept is the strongest among the others. SCENE is "where, when and why", come to think of it. You see, the SCENE concept (which refers to the third game concept) is dealing with history and an individual's ability to shape it for the next generations. Well, these are the basics. Hope you like...

Colonel Campbell in MGS4?
The article says "Colonel Campbell has also been confirmed to return for MGS4."

Where is this confirmed? What is the source on this?


 * Yah that was recently added by someone, and I dont see it sourced/cited so it should be deleted unless that can be confirmed, because I highly doubt it. captbananas 18:32, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

It was confirmed by Kojima on his radio show Hideochan apparently

The E3 trailer also confirms this fact as well as of 5-08-06

E3 MGS4 trailer
Thought I'd post it here. http://www.elektr1k.com/metalgearsolid4e3.divx Takuthehedgehog 20:18, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

The baby Raiden is holding in the art
Kojima has confirmed that Snake is 43 years old during MGS4, meaning MGS4 takes place in the year 2015, six years after the Big Shell incident.

Why does the article then have have to speculate whether the baby Raiden is holding in the art is his or Olga's?

I mean, the baby looks way too young to be neither his nor Olga's. Had it been his, the baby should be like, what, 5 years old? And had it been Olga's it should be, what, 7?

-- Because at the time the promotional poster was released they still weren't sure how much time was going to have passed between MGS2 and MGS4 to fit everything in continuity. Lilinka 21:41, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

can you post a link or a picture of raiden holding the baby please?

Directing
So... Is Hideo Kojima the only director; or the co-director? First, the article states that he announced co-directing -- then, it gets confusing, when it says that he "himself will be directing." Yet; the information-bar on the right still lists him as co-director. Oh, and speaking of co-directing; I've noticed that the new trailers for this game are very cinematic; and have this new depressed feeling to it -- I love it. Maybe the new director and Kojima makes a great team; originally, I only wanted Kojima to direct it. Now, I'm starting to like the new guy. 67.164.209.137 21:29, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Both Kojima and Murata are directing. That's what was originally announced, and what has been listed as such in all the game's trailers (E3 2005, TGS 2005, E3 2006). Whoever added that at the bottom was mistaken; I'm removing it now. - DoubleCross 02:59, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Fishy Section
Speculative Concepts seems to be nothing more than a section devoted solely for wild, irrelevant speculation, and mentions information already seen in other parts of the article. Also, it's rather poorly written. I quote:

It is possible that Solid Snake has aged faster than the other cast members due to the FOXDIE virus he contracted in MGS.
 * Covered under Timeline setting, which has a more in-depth analysis, I think.

''The small Metal Gears (Gekkōs) shown in the trailer are shown being cut by Raiden's sword. When they are cut, blood comes shooting out and flesh can be seen inside. It is possible that these creatures were created with the help of nanomachines, re-organizing a organic being into a more robotic looking form.''
 * Basically a description of what Raiden does during the trailer, and an example of the poor writing I mentioned. This paragraph also mentions animals being somehow morphed into Gekko with the help of nanomachines. Nothing in the trailer suggests this, other than the fact that they're Metal Gears and somehow have organic legs. The blood they gush could also be that fake, nanomachine-filled blood that Raiden had coursing through him during MGS2. It's pure fan speculation that has no place in the article.

''In an early poster for MGS4 (seen at the bottom of this article) Raiden is shown holding a baby. It is possible that the baby is the son, or daughter, of Solid Snake. The child could have been cloned in a similar way to how Solid Snake was cloned from Big Boss. As a plot device for a sequel it is possible that Raiden will train the young Snake Clone, this would be one way to continue the series after the death of Solid Snake. The baby shown in the poster may also be the orphaned child of Olga. This would seem to be a more reasonable conclusion at first, however, if she was born at the time of MGS2 she would have to be older than the baby in the poster.''
 * Again, more poorly written fan speculation. Raiden holding Snake's baby? That's funny, considering Snake cannot have offspring. The paragraph mentions the baby being cloned from Snake to cover up the aforementioned bullshit, but then takes a nosedive by saying that as a plot device for the "sequel" (which has yet to be even mentioned by Kojima), Raiden will train the Snake clone to drag the series forward. This seems like it was written by a desperate MGS fan trying to spark some discussion and speculation. The section has no place in the article. I actually Wikified some parts of the section, but upon close inspection, I realized it was pure speculation. I ask other users for their input on this, although I think the situation has little room for discussion.--DethFromAbove 00:27, 20 May 2006 (UTC)


 * That's some horrible stuff. And you're right, there is little room for discussion here. Thanks for getting rid of it. - DoubleCross 23:41, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Besides, Snake can't reproduce as a clone, so its not possible that his offspring is in the hands of Raiden in the art. Patchiemoo 03:54, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Even if it's all possible (ie: baby being a clone of Snake's) there's no proof, thus, it does not belong in here. Bravo to DethFromAbove for removing that. 75.4.198.45 09:13, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Spoiler
How about some spoiler tags? 22:06, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

6 Years After Big Shell
Do we need the "Timeline setting" section? As it is established earlier on that it will take place 6 years after the Big Shell incident, Unless people Object I vote for the removal of this section. Help plz 20:14, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree, the "Timeline setting" section isn't needed but if you remove it, you should still keep the link to the interview where Kojima states Snake's age.


 * Does anyone have any concrete proof that the game will actually take place six years after MGS4? All we have to go for is Kojima's reflection of himself in Snake, which I don't believe was supposed to be interpreted literally. Jonny2x4 01:37, 2 June 2006 (UTC)


 * One interesting (well, maybe not) thing about what Kojima said is that he's not even 43 yet, considering his birthdate is listed as August 24, 1963. Of course he was probably just rounding up, but I wonder if that says anything about his statement (regarding Snake). - DoubleCross 03:24, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup
While I think this article is very informative, it's also a disroganized mess, talking about every piece of detail about the game in the "Known details", with no sense of organization. I'm organizing based all the information based on general details revealed in interviews and such,, details revealed during both trailers and specific details about the game's plot and characters. I'll appreciate if anyone can help me out here. Jonny2x4 02:19, 2 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I've chopped out most of the reduntant info and cut it down to basic and useful facts; it's not the wallowing great guide to everything MGS4 it was, but this is an encyclopedia, and it should be readible and concise. Still needs formatting better and adding a few nips and tucks. Especially the "Sense", "MG Mk.II" and "Continuing The Bloodline" bits, that should be subsections of Gameplay.Hyperspacey 18:28, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Something i noticed...
At the end of the extended trialer from 06 it says konamia productions 1987 2036, could the 2036 mean anything to the game? Just thought i would point that out. To find this it is at time 12:16 of the trailer... ~REexpert44~ REexpert 18:55, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Johnny Sasaki visually confirmed in E3 2006 trailer?
Under the "returning characters" section, Johnny Sasaki is listed as one of the characters visually confirmed in the E3 2006 trailer.

I didn't notice him. Could somebody please tell me where he was and when he could be seen in the trailer?


 * They dont have to be seen in the trailer. Kojima has confirmed this in interviews. -- Psi edit 11:40, 2 July 2006 (UTC)


 * But why is he, in this article, listed as a character visually confirmed in the E3 2006 trailer then?


 * I went ahead and fixed it up and put him under "other confirmed characters". -th1rt3en 17:10, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Tidy enough yet?
Reckon we can take down the Clean-Up tag yet, or does it require more work? Hyperspacey 09:07, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't see anything else that could possibly be trimmed out/down.--DethFromAbove 05:24, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I've gone and taken it down, although someone may put it back up (The Bread 03:26, 10 July 2006 (UTC))

Questions
I hear a lot of talk about a promotional picture showing Raiden holding onto a baby. I've looked everywhere for this, but can't find it. What search term should I google for? Can anyone link me to this?

There appears to be a big time gap between Guns of the Patriots and Sons of Liberty; that's a lot of potential time wasted for possibilities of more sequels; unless they decide to make future games be prequels to Guns of the Patriots. Is there a general consensus among fans of the approximate time gap between the two games? It has to be pretty long, as Otacon and the colonel look a lot older than they did. Maybe at least 20 years?

Regarding Raiden; how was he able to train in VR missions simulating Snake's missions? Doesn't Raiden's chapter take place immediately after Snake's Tank Chapter mission? How was there enough time for there to be a VR mission programmed after Snake's mission, just in time for Raiden to train with it? Another thing I've read about Raiden is that he has artificial blood even back in Sons of Liberty; what does this blood do? Why doesn't Snake train in VR missions as much as Raiden, and genetically/physically modify himself to the level of early-Raiden, so that they are comparable in terms of physique? It doesn't seem to me like Snake is afraid of modifying himself too much; he is often injected with nanobots.

Another thing that confuses me is why Gray Fox or Raiden (the early AND future Raiden) are so much better soldiers than Solid Snake -- I mean, he's supposed to be a clone of the greatest soldier of the 20th century (possibly greater than Big Boss), and Raiden could probably defeat him easilly based on skill. The early Raiden seems to still be a much superior soldier than Snake, even when he's so much younger, and without an exoskeleten suit! Snake has trouble taking down multiple enemies, and relies on stealth. Raiden doesn't need to, as he often makes multiple enemies down at a time; and with his exoskeleten, he can defeat multiple mini metal-gears; in the trailer, all Snake could do is run and try and lure them away! So doesn't that make Raiden or Gray Fox (with the suit) the better soldiers? How exactly is Snake the greatest soldier of the century? Maybe he needs to train as much as Raiden did in VR missions... 24.23.51.27 20:11, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I dont have time to read your long post. But heres the image. Also heres the revision it was from -- Psi edit 03:56, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Various answers:

MGS4 is taken to occur in the year 2015, some 6 years after MGS2.

The two-year gap between the Tanker and Plant chapters of MGS2 is, IMO, long enough to allow for Raiden's training.

Raiden's artificial blood is nano-auged and stuff; it doesn't really change him that much though, and was probably slowly replaced by his own blood as it wore out and his bone marrow did its thing. Arguably, Snake and Raiden are physically similar. It's hinted at in various MGS2-releated things that Otacon created a VR simulator for Snake to use and that he's used it.

Snake has never claimed to be the greatest soldier ever (in fact he was, according to the MGS ending, created to be a crippled copy of the perfectly-engineered Liquid). Raiden is, arguably, an inferior soldier- he's gullible, maniplatable, and the only reason he's so good is because he's been in a lot of physical training and because he's learned a lot from copying Snake. Grey Fox, too, whilst an amasing fighter, lacked certain non-physical abilities that Snake has- namely, whatever the player brings to the table when he picks up the pad. Hyperspacey 00:09, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Speculation, rambling, and daft information in general
Could we please minimise the number of edits of the following nature:

- Adding on sections saying "Kojima says Snake won't die, but he also said he might, so we don't know". We know we don't know! If we knew we'd have added a bit in saying if Snake lived or died (albeit in spoiler brackets).

- Waffling on about stuff that might happen, extrapolated from guesswork based on the trailer, and posting it as fact. Discuss it hear, maybe, and we can reach a concensus about whether its geniune or not, hmmm?

- Amazing insights like, "Snake will face a number of giant robots", "Snake will fight mercenaries armed with modern weaponary" and "Snake may fight people he was once allied with". C'mon, guys, this info belongs in the series page, it's like sticking a section in the Mario Galaxy page about jumping on enemy's heads and mushrooms making you grow.

Additions are nice, but the reason this page is very concise is because i) it's an encyclopedia article, not the MGS4 Speculation Thread on Gamesradar and ii) the game's only been unveiled in two trailers and a tiny amount of hinting from the developer. Facts only on the main page, let's discuss stuff on discussion, hmmm? I don't want to see this get another CleanUp tag after I spent three hours condensing it.

Hyperspacey 15:14, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Continuing the bloodline
Seems a pretty dumb title line, something like Returning Elements would be better. (The Bread 04:47, 24 July 2006 (UTC))

Philistines! *Sobs* Okay, your version is more sensible. It was probably quite early in the morning when I thought that one up and I was feeling artistic. Hyperspacey 13:00, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

No offence intended (The Bread 05:09, 26 July 2006 (UTC))

None taken. (Hyperspacey 10:54, 26 July 2006 (UTC))

Footage Shown on PC's
How are they able to show awesome next-gen graphics from games like this on a PC; when the next generation games are supposed to be much more graphically intensive than even the most powerful PC (currently) could handle? I never understood how or why they were able to show next gen dev graphics on modern PC's; they are next gen afterall. Do they hook up a PS3 to the PC to help power it or something?


 * 1) Are you sure it's a PC and not a devkit hooked to a PC monitor?
 * 2) Are you sure it's not just a movie?
 * 3) What does this have to do with the article?
 * -- Le Scoopertemp [  tk  ] 05:36, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


 * 1 - Not sure; this is why I am asking.
 * 2 - Definately not; the footage shown of Guns of Patriots was meant to be real time; and to show how the graphics are done. There was a real time demonstration video I saw, where the person was able to control the camera, and change the hue of the video on screen. He was also able to show how they had added Film-Grain effects and other motion-blur effects to the game. Everything was running in real time.
 * 3 - The article is about an upcoming game; Guns of Patriots. I believe the footage I saw of Guns of the Patriots was possibly run on a PC.


 * You know how, with a TV, you can show pictures of stuff that's happening somewhere else on it? You can do that with a PC, only amazingly, you can record footage of a game playing on another machine and play it back from a PC. Which is what they most likely do at games conventions- a high-end PC with a DVD drive playing back a lossless 1080p video of MGS4. Which was rendered in real-time in-engine on a PS3 and recorded. As the realtime demo clearly demonstrated, it's run-able on PS3, what with the equipment being hooked up to an actual, living, gigantic PS3 beta devkit. Why bother rewriting the entire engine just so they can demo it on a PC? Pointless wouldn't even cover it given it's unlikely to appear on the platform. Hyperspacey 03:47, 3 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I believe I wasn't being clear enough, which is where the confusion stems. I wasn't watching a video presented on a PC. I wasn't talking about the trailers they've shown of MGS4. I'm speaking about this video that I had seen somewhere on Google Video (although it could have been elsewhere) that showed off the graphics of MGS4, in real time, as the announcer was speaking. As he said something, like, "I'm going to turn the whole screen green and going to add tons of film grain"; he did just that. It looked like everything was controlled on a PC (though I could be wrong). He was controlling the graphics which looked to be through a PC, and doing it in real time in front of an audience. It was no video of a real-time game-footage. I KNOW that those videos are really PS3 graphics; no doubt (although I believe they have been enhanced; just like any other game, the preview-footage often gets worse graphically as time passes). I'm not talking about videos. 24.23.51.27 10:23, 6 October 2006 (UTC)


 * He was controlling a PS3 dev kit, essentially a PS3 that has a host of extra connectors and buttons that can run unsigned code- a debug version of MGS4, say. Which could let you control the endering parameters in the same way MGS2's Document disc with it's "debug" cutscene viewer let you alter camera position, etc. Just because it's not a videogame per se doesn't mean it's not running on a PS3. Hyperspacey 15:02, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Big Boss Return?
Is it possible that Big Boss wasn't dead after all and may make a return? Afterall he was on some promotional stuff and he didn't die in a particularly definite way, it was only a lit aerosol. Also, shortly before escaping Arsenal Gear in a RAY, Liquid Snake (While controlling ocelot) does say "there's only room for one Big Boss and one Snake", could he be referring to something we don't quite know? Or is he just being dramatic?

Also, after reading the Japanese Wikipedia for MGS4, they list Big Boss as an announced character (Also, they list Rose)

He was just being dramatic (Refering to himself as Big Boss) but you're not supposed discuss the game on the talk page, just the article

( The Bread 06:22, 15 September 2006 (UTC))


 * Old Snake IS Big Boss! Information Center 09:15PM, 04 October 2006 (UTC)


 * No he's not, Kojima said himself it's not, stop the nonsense. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Big Boss Inc. (talk • contribs).

Young Snake in TGS trailer
in the 6 min tgs trailer at the end there is a young snake, i think it is a clone of solid snake....

yeah he looked sick cant wait to find out who exactly he is one critisisem all though he looks like snake he has no bandana lol its like tradition User:Kami-Sama

wounder if he's on solid snakes side all against him alswo he weres the same kind of outfit as snake. User:Kami-Sama

I dont think that it is a new person. I think it has something to do with his camo suit. If you notice at the beginning of the trailer when snake gets up from playing dead and his camo suit changes back, the dirt or age spots on his face disappear.--Hasty5o 21:01, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I think your being a bit HASTY there lol. sorry bad joke any way I dont think its got any thing to do with the camo. it might actuarly be a new character. theres no way it's the camo. User:Kami-Sama

the new character looks like he's in his mid 20's so that would mean he would of been alive during mgs2 sons of libarty. User:Kami-Sama

This is all just theory, while i will say that this could be a new character i dont think that it is. another reason for my thinking is that this younger snake smokes like the older snake, what other clone does that. and how can you say that there is no way that that is his camo, when clearly when snake turns off his suit the dirt on his face disappers--66.157.232.81 04:37, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I have to say this, you are not supposed to talk about anything but the article on the talk page, but what I want to know is which trailer you're talking about and what you're talking about

†he Bread 05:26, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

watch the new metal gear solid 4 trailer on ign.com and at the end theres a character that looks like snake but younger. but every ones saying it's his camo but i think it's a new character. User:Kami-Sama

Hmmm....prehaps we can get a screen for the article?

†he Bread 03:27, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/3895/andnowforsomethingcompletlydifferentgg8.png

IGN has better quality shots, but seeing as they demanded YouTube to pull off their cam-recorded version of the trailer, I doubt Wikipedia would be able to use it.

75.4.203.92 18:19, 24 September 2006 (UTC

Ok, the only reason anyone is saying that the appearance of snake with a younger face is a new character is because people want it to be a new character. Metal Gear Solid 2 and 3 both featured a slew of new characters, but Metal Gear Solid 4 has yet to show us any new characters, thus people want to believe that Snake-with-a-younger-face is a new character. The main page states that the younger snake IS a new character, and thats only speculation, that needs to be taken off. It also says when snake is wearing a mask over his face that it is also a new character. How the heck can you say its a different character if you can't see their face? I don't think the MGS4 page should say anything about any "new character" because their is no proof that the new trailer actaully features anyone besides snake.

Oh well, i can still look at it, and i'll take down the speculation

†he Bread 01:08, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

While that definately looks like Snake, he doesn't have his trademark mullet. That's probably why they think its another clone or new character. Plus, how is Snake suddenly young? --Mr.Kickyourbutt 18:04, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

What most people forget is that Snake only has his trademark mullet when he wears the bandanna (as it holds his hair in place) without the bandanna, it appears the same way as it did in the trailer. User: Big Boss Inc.

Thank you finaly someone see's it from my point of view. User:Kam-Sama

Snake Soup has a theory about Young Snake being in the 2005 promotional poster here: http://www.thesnakesoup.org/?section=mgs4&content=main however even he says that its pretty much all speculation and nothing more. -75.4.203.92 08:58, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll have a look

†he Bread 23:53, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

or the young snake could be a place holder for someone else.. remember kojima manipulated mgs2 trailers so it would appear that solid snake was the main character! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.105.29.94 (talk • contribs).

like the website I mentioned said, it could also be the ability to play as a young Snake in online mode, or something. 75.4.203.92 09:23, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that during the trailer, one of the slides with text (the ones that say "No place to hide!", etc.) says, "No place in time". I think that might be a hint as to why young Snake makes an appearance, although I think that's all that can be inferred from it. StealthHit06 16:12, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

God knows. We'll find out next year. Hyperspacey 16:37, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

It couldn't be Olga's baby, could it? I mean, we don't know how long it is since MGS2 yet, do we? Although I guess Meryl and the others would look older too... I don't know, I'm just speculating. Joe 042293 10:46, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Plot Vandalism
Someone has vandalized the plot section as far as I can see. Could someone please fix this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.96.10.251 (talk • contribs).
 * In future you should feel free to repair vandalism yourself, you don't need to be registered to change things.Hyperspacey 21:38, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Release Date?
Does anyone know if a release date is planned for this game yet in the U.S.? this game is going to single-handedly (is that even a word?) make me buy a PS3, i heard rumors that in the trailer from E3 '06 that you could see a 777 flipped upside down, implying that MGS4 was slated for a 07.07.07 release (July 7th, 2007) i probably would buy my PS3 when this game came out (if the 777 rumor IS true, i would assume the PS3's price would drop)


 * I doubt that. I believe GameSpot said that they are planning on releasing it at least Q4 2007 I can't confirm this at the moment, but that is what KojimaProductions said. 75.28.39.120 03:22, 5 October 2006 (UTC)