Talk:Metalcore/Archive 3

Melodic Metalcore
The term melodic metalcore is a misnomer,since it is supposed to refer to bands that mix hardcore punk rock with Gothenburg Metal/Melodic Death Metal. A better term would be "Gothenburg Metalcore" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.95.22.83 (talk) 15:10, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Characteristics
I really think that this page is not written with non-metal fans in mind. This sections doesn't describe anything that couldn't be said about metal. Some one with a technical understanding of music should add to this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wrrdsck (talk • contribs) 21:29, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Criticism
Plenty of metalfans, music journalists and heavy metal magazines seem to at some point complain or otherwise criticise Metalcore,(or the modern term), plus, reading below and other places, theres seems to be plenty of confusion about how to define and what is it, so how about adding a critcism section? -- Appletaffy 4-11-09 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Appletaffy (talk • contribs) 17:32, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Because there is criticism of ALL types of music. I can't think of one genre that has never been criticism at one point or another.  Even The Beatles have been criticized.  If you can find multiple reliable, verifiable sources, you might be able to add it.   TheWeak Willed   (T * G) 20:52, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The Weak Willed.. is that a reference to All That Remains?... anyway, this has been talked before (some years ago actually), check the archives. --Kmaster (talk) 18:11, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Phil Labonte has expressed that he is not The Weak Willed, but I am not Phil Labonte, so logic may say that I am   TheWeak Willed   (T * G) 02:14, 6 November 2009 (UTC) :D
 * Alright... I'll keep that in mind next time I listen to that song (roll eyes) --Kmaster (talk) 20:21, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

TheWeakWilled raises a good point, but modern emo and metalcore just seems to be completly hated by a large majority of the metal community. I haven't got enough sources to make a criticsm bit, I just thought because alot of the discussion site raises lots of critics and arguments I thought there would be a loads of sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Appletaffy (talk • contribs) 09:32, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

well it depends on which type of metalcore. I'm one of those metalheads who hates emos and SOME metalcore, but other metalcore contains some of my favorite bands. In my opinion metalcore is too broad of a term and the genre needs to be divided, because there are metalcore bands with a much higher emo influence (i.e. the devil wears prada) and metalcore bands with more of a metal based sound (i.e. Trivium). these two bands dont even sound anything alike yet theyre commonly categorized as the same genre. this doesnt seem right to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CrunchPuff (talk • contribs) 20:31, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The influence of emo should be added in the article.--Omair00 (talk) 17:57, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

There is a point to be made about exactly what is being criticised. There's the actual music on one hand and the new tradition of labeling bands and music within the "core"-culture (in lack of a better word) on the other. There have been attempts (such as this article) at constructing and explaining the roots of the metalcore and other "core"-genres which the established scene has had problems agreeing and identifying with. I believe this practice is what has caused the most animosity from the older metal-scene. While history always is written and defined in retrospect, I've come across a lot of revisions of the history of metal that appear to stem mainly from the "core"-culture. Unfortunately, the citations in this article suggests we still don't have any in-depth work on this and I have yet to find any myself. 84.208.181.207 (talk) 15:43, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Christians
I just added an edit to the Christians in metalcore, to Norma Jean. There was no citation. I made note that a citation is needed for Norma Jean like Zao, As I Lay Dying, and Underoath.Lorenwade (talk) 04:48, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Expanding metallic hardcore section
Yes, can someone please expand the "Metallic Hardcore" section? Too much is focused on the Metalcore to really explain Metallic Hardcore

I'm thinking of expanding the metallic hardcore section of this page by focusing on the four bands most widely discussed in sources: Integrity, Earth Crisis, Converge, and Hatebreed. This would also address Lyckantrop's concern about the "ideologies" section being too specific. Aryder779 (talk) 19:20, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think there's such thing called "metallic hardcore", however I do think theres's a huge difference between melodic metalcore and metalcore, and it should be noted somewhere. --Kmaster (talk) 00:16, 3 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I agree. There's been a lot of discussion here on the status of melodic metalcore; I included it here as a subgenre, with a number of references. For some strange reason, one or two people around here are convinced that melodic metalcore doesn't exist, and even that all metalcore is melodic (which is definitely false). The information was incorporated into the main body of the "history" section, which in some ways made more sense anyway.
 * If you check the archives, you'll find a long list of sources for "melodic metalcore" I compiled.
 * "Metallic hardcore", incidentally, is a term used in the press, so there is such a thing. Whether it's synonymous with metalcore is the question. Aryder779 (talk) 14:51, 6 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Melodic metalcore sources are here. Aryder779 (talk) 19:37, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I think there's enough valid evidence/references to have a "melodic metalcore" section. Seems like some people think Killswitch Engage invented the genre, their definition of metalcore is what they see on MTV2. Wonder if they have listen to Overcast's bleed into one or Converge's halo in a haystack --Kmaster (talk) 16:20, 13 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Just saw that someone (not me) added this category. Good for them. If anyone wants to claim melodic metalcore isn't a subgenre, I'm willing to help argue with them. Aryder779 (talk) 15:52, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know, I still think that melodic metalcore should have its own paragraph on "styles of metalcore", don't you think? --Kmaster (talk) 17:18, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, it's occurred to me that the "styles" section should be incorporated into the "history" section. This might make more sense, and it would provide perspective on the way metalcore evolved. A new paragragh could be added to history, including subsections for mathcore and deathcore -- it's important that those developments are parallel to and independent of melodic metalcore. Those subsections also really need to be pruned of OR. Aryder779 (talk) 17:35, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I've just reworked the "subgenres" section into the "history", which I think makes more clear the distinctions between mathcore, deathcore, and melodic metalcore. Previously, the melodic groups were foregrounded, whereas the others were pushed down to the bottom of the page, which didn't make much sense. I also tried to provide references to substantiate most of what's said about mathcore and deathcore. Aryder779 (talk) 00:17, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking about adding an infobox for the melodic metalcore section like this one. Any thoughts?--Kmaster (talk) 20:04, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
 * That's an interesting idea, but I've never seen an infobox included in a music genre article for a subgenre. I'm also not sure how it will make the page look. I'm also not sure if deathcore is a derivative of melodic metalcore. I'm not an expert in deathcore, but it seems to me that deathcore borrows more from the '90s metallic hardcore groups or even early mathcore. Correct me if I'm wrong. Aryder779 (talk) 21:32, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * "Deathcore often features breakdowns and melodic riffs." I'm not an expert too but I think it is. It is more like melodic metalcore with even more death metal influences. --Kmaster (talk) 16:52, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Youth Crew
I dont realy think the "Youth Crew" is relavent in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.116.177.74 (talk) 23:19, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, here's the thing: Youth crew is a lot more relevant than melodic death metal. The early metallic hardcore groups were all influenced by Cro-Mags, Agnostic Front, Youth of Today -- NY hardcore or youth crew groups. They recorded for Equal Vision Records. Look at the early sources on metalcore -- they all talk about straight edge and attributes of the youth crew scene.
 * I think that the difficulty with this page is that there's a large fanbase of people who love recent groups that owe a lot to At the Gates and not much to the Bad Brains, and those people haven't looked into the real template for metalcore (Integrity, Earth Crisis, Converge, Hatebreed, as I keep repeating). Aryder779 (talk) 14:51, 6 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Granted that Youth crew adds to the attitude of many Metalcore bands but not to the sound, Melodic Death Metal bands like In Flames, At The Gates and Soilwork have actually had a major musical/stylistic influence on most if not all Metalcore bands. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.116.177.74 (talk) 05:18, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Youth crew does have a strong influence on the sound of the metallic hardcore groups I mentioned -- mainly in the character of the breakdowns. Breakdowns are the definitive attribute of metalcore (as referenced in the article); they were invented by the Bad Brains and practiced by groups like Youth of Today, Cro-Mags, Shelter, etc. -- youth crew groups. Without breakdowns, no metalcore; metalcore groups got their characteristic breakdowns through youth crew.
 * Melodic death metal, on the other hand, doesn't become an influence until groups like Darkest Hour formed, in the mid-90s -- a good 3-4 years after Earth Crisis, Integrity, Converge, Hatebreed, and a number of other groups were already performing discernible metalcore (and named as such). There are no sources indicating a melodic death metal influence on any of the groups who formed in the early '90s, and those groups were definitely performing metalcore. The mid-90s work of Converge, Dillinger Escape Plan, Candiria, Strife, Coalesce still owes nothing to melodeath, and retains some influence from youth crew (not much in DEP's case, I'll grant you).
 * It's not really until Atreyu, Underoath, Bullet for My Valentine, All That Remains, Avenged Sevenfold, and Killswitch Engage that a really strong melodeath character appears in metalcore -- and these groups formed after 1998: almost a decade after metalcore had already been established.
 * So I disagree with your statement that melodeath has an influence on "most if not all" metalcore groups. Rather, it's a relatively late element in the style. Aryder779 (talk) 16:33, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Youth Crew and Straight Edge have had a small influence on Metalcore compared to Melodic Death Metal, not to say that it hasnt had an influence, Emo curture has even had an influence on Metalcore, for example Avenged Sevenfulled, Underoath, Bullet For My Valentine and Atreyu are all more on the emo side of Metalcore as where Unearth, Killswitch Engage, All That Remains and The Black Dahlia Murder are all on the more Melodic Death Metal side of Metalcore. its just that Straight Edge and Youth Crew are just an additude influence not a Musical or Stylistic influence, i mean yes bands like Killswithc Engage, Bleeding Through, and Darkest Hour follow the Straight Edge lifestyle but so do many other bands in many other genres, so it realy dosnt have a relavence in Metalcore. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.116.177.74 (talk) 20:27, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes. The influence of emo should be added in the article.--Omair00 (talk) 18:03, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
 * You've completely ignored everything I've just written about breakdowns (the musical inheritance from youth crew) and the relatively late influence of melodeath. All the bands you're talking about are very late additions to the genre. Aryder779 (talk) 21:16, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * An analogy would be this: Let's say I wanted to argue that punk rock is a stylistic origin for heavy metal. I could say that Motörhead, Metallica, Slayer, and Anthrax all have obvious punk influences; therefore, punk is an origin for metal. You would reply that this is impossible, because Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, and Judas Priest had already invented heavy metal, several years before punk ever happened. There's an equivalent situation with metalcore and melodeath: Even though melodic death metal is a strong influence for Killswitch Engage et. al., that doesn't change the fact that metalcore had already existed for a few years before melodic death metal was ever a style (Integrity and Converge started playing in '89-'90, At the Gates and In Flames didn't start recording until '91 and '94). Aryder779 (talk) 23:30, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * BTW, since you bring up emo -- I think Converge are actually probably the first metalcore group to bring in emo/post-hardcore influences; they've mentioned Dischord bands as an influence, and you can definitely hear it. None of the other early metalcore groups have that influence, though ... unless you count Born Against. Aryder779 (talk) 20:35, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Then bring up emo in the article.--Omair00 (talk) 18:03, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
 * You're confusing melodic metalcore with real metalcore (metallic hardcore) anyway. Melodeath has no influence on bands like Integrity, Converge, Earth Crisis, Overcast... and those were the pioneers. Bullet for my Valentine has no emo influences.. neither atreyu, you're just confusing things. Black Dahlia Murder is more like melodeath so it has nothing to do here. --Kmaster (talk) 21:37, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Origins of metalcore
Let me further indicate my point on the beginnings of the metalcore genre. Integrity - formed 1989. Influences: Cro-Mags, Slayer, Septic Death, Samhain, Motörhead, Joy Division. See "Blood Runs Deep", p. 110, Alternative Press, July 7, 2008. Converge - formed 1990. Influences: Starkweather, Rorschach, Born Against, Godflesh, The Accused, Entombed. See Converge FAQ at. Earth Crisis - formed 1991. Influences: Slayer, Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, DYS, Dead Kennedys, The Rolling Stones, and Misfits. See tracklisting on covers album:. Also cited Napalm Death, Bolt Thrower, and Obituary in an interview with Albert Mudrian in Choosing Death -- who are death metal groups, but certainly not melodic ones. Hatebreed - formed 1994. Influences: Misfits, Metallica, Judge, Cro-Mags, D.R.I., Negative Approach, Agnostic Front, Madball, Sheer Terror, Obituary. See plans for covers album,. These are the first groups to perform metalcore as we know it, and none of them cite a single melodic death metal group (though many of them do mention pre-melodic death metal). All of them cite at least one group associated with the youth crew scene (Cro-Mags, Born Against, DYS, Judge, Agnostic Front, Madball, and Sheer Terror are all linked to youth crew). And this source strongly indicates Earth Crisis' role as "inheritor" of the legacy of youth crew: Aryder779 (talk) 16:58, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Melodic death metal should be removed from the origins. Not because melodic metalcore bands have influences on melodeath that means the whole metalcore genre is influenced in that genre. --Kmaster (talk) 16:05, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The trouble is that if someone removes it, I'm almost positive that someone else will add it in the relatively near future -- and without the "after 1995" tag. Aryder779 (talk) 17:17, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, so melodeath has now been removed (not by me, but I endorse the decision). Melodic death metal is only an origin for melodic metalcore -- one subgenre. Metallic hardcore, mathcore, and deathcore groups do not take appreciable influence from melodic death metal, so it shouldn't be listed in the infobox. Aryder779 (talk) 14:18, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

What about Hard Core as a genre?
A lot of bands that are listed under Metalcore have referred to themselves simply as "Hard Core" bands. Myself, as well as most people I know have referred to them as the same for years. It seems there is a large gap between Hard Core Punk and Metalcore that should be taken up simply as the genre of Hard Core, which should then have subgroups such as Metalcore and Melodic Hard Core, Screamo, etc. In fact, Hard Core must be a genre in order to have Melodic Hard Core, otherwise the "punk" part would be implied, and I know of no Melodic Hard Core band that would refer to themselves as such.

I've always taken Hard Core to be, fundamentally, anything that has serious screaming in it (excluding bands that dabble in screaming, ex. Pedro the Lion, Modest Mouse, Beck, Foo Fighters, etc.). This article is very well written and researched, but seems to be severely lacking in this area, and has a slant of personal opinion, rather than an objective one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.203.177.177 (talk) 14:47, 13 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think this article has POV problems. What you're talking about is hardcore punk, by the way. Some people do make a distinction between hardcore punk and simply "hardcore", but this distinction is vague and has no sources to back it up. Aryder779 (talk) 17:19, 13 August 2008 (UTC)


 * No, he is not talking about "hardcore punk", he is talking about "hardcore". There is a difference, and I completely agree with him and shared his stance on other discussion boards.  So, he's not the only one who thinks this, I'm not the only one who thinks this.  Is there more?  Post up.

Napalm Death when they originally came out were just referred to as a Hardcore group. They are now listed as being "Grindcore". So whats the difference? Grindcore is a subgenre of hardcore the same way metalcore is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.252.34 (talk) 08:46, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't think hard core will ever be a specific genre. Hard core is way too vague because so many people think it means different things. The term post-hardcore refers to the gap between hardcore punk and metalcore from what I've observed. SebDaMuffin (talk) 19:17, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Meshuggah?
Meshuggah is a math metal band, not mathcore. —91.78.183.106 (talk) 12:08, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree, it's a progressive metal band.--Kmaster (talk) 17:55, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Progressive metal is not that descripted at all. Dream Theatre and Pagans Mind are Progressive metal. Meshuggah sound nothing like them. More of an avant-garde death metal band....Opeth is progressive + death metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.195.117.211 (talk) 16:09, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm, whatever, that band doesn't belong here.--Kmaster (talk) 22:09, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Isn't meshugga a groove band? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.160.78.146 (talk) 18:10, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Meshuggah is death metal —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.181.61.108 (talk) 08:05, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Melodic Metalcore
I don't really think that As i Lay Dying are really Melodic Metalcore. They aren't very melodic at all and don't use clean vocals often —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jonasbrotherareterrible (talk • contribs) 03:19, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * You can find a lot of clean vocals on Shadows are Security and An Ocean Between us. Including their huge melodeath influence. --Kmaster (talk) 22:10, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Early metalcore / Metallic hardcore
Why "metallic hardcore"? These groups, aside from the crossover bands, were the first to be branded metalcore, and many still refer to them as such. Also, several sources use Earth Crisis, Biohazard, Deadguy, and similar bands to define metalcore. 70.152.184.189 (talk) 21:46, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Many real hardcore fans call them metallic hardcore instead of metalcore to set a difference between KsE from Deadguy, for example. And it's sourced. --Kmaster (talk) 22:08, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Many "real hardcore fans," myself included, prefer to call them metalcore. But that doesn't matter, does it? POV is POV. As for your source, I'm sorry, but that does not change a thing. This is a metalcore article and we are discussing early metalcore groups, and all under the "metallic hardcore" section have been labelled metalcore, with the genre sourced at some point in the article. 70.152.184.189 (talk) 22:20, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

The new source does not support your claim that all early metalcore is "metallic hardcore," as members of Shai Hulud also used it to describe "metal-influenced hardcore" and "hardcore-influenced metal." The older source can be used for Converge and to support "These groups are sometimes referred to as metallic hardcore.", but not much else. As I said, all under the "metallic hardcore" section are metalcore, and the genre is sourced for each. 70.152.184.189 (talk) 23:00, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I really don't see that it's that big a deal whether we title the heading "metallic hardcore" or "early metalcore". Metallic hardcore happens to be a bit more specific, and to be supported by some sources. To be sure, the earliest metalcore groups were metallic hardcore groups, so it's six or half a dozen. I'm a bit less certain as to how to handle the dates. 1989 seems like a good place to start, because that's when Integrity started playing and when the youth crew groups started getting serious about thrash metal (and eventually death metal). But when should the "metallic hardcore" era be said to stop? Saying 1989-1995 sounds kind of weird, because crucial albums like Petitioning the Empty Sky came out in '96. I would say that metallic hardcore/early metalcore tends to refer to groups who formed prior between '89 and '95, but oftentimes produced significant recordings later in the '90s or in the early '00s. Aryder779 (talk) 23:17, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It's sourced so it stays as Metallic hardcore. --Kmaster (talk) 03:45, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 * No. You're pushing POV, guy. 70.152.184.189 (talk) 00:27, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually you are. And this is your last warning per WP:3RR --Kmaster (talk) 00:35, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Wrong. I've stuck with the theme of the article (metalcore) and all bands are sourced. And you do realize you've also violated the 3RR, right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.152.184.189 (talk) 17:09, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * No you haven't. You haven't read the article, neither our opinions or the sources, You're just pushing your POV persistently. We are not talking about bands here. And do you realize 3RR is a 2 editors incident, right?--Kmaster (talk) 20:58, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * "as members of Shai Hulud also used it to describe "metal-influenced hardcore" and "hardcore-influenced metal." There you go. Musicians and fans often call those bands metallic hardcore and there's the proof. Like Aryder779 said; it is more specific and it is supported by sources. --Kmaster (talk) 21:05, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

This IP user(s) doesn't seem to stop, this person is trying to avoid 3RR while still reverting to something of his personal liking not to everyone else's unanimous decision. The Phantomnaut (talk) 06:50, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Well I made a small edit that we can all agree upon. Apologies. The Phantomnaut (talk) 22:12, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Why include genres in headings? There will always be debate, and claiming one genre existed from year X to year Y smacks of OR and POV. 70.152.170.23 (talk) 23:59, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The only "debate" is your constantly and annoying POV pushing, there's no OR because there are sources. Just ask Aryder779 and he will tell you all of them.--Kmaster (talk) 03:35, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
 * For every every "metallic hardcore" source there is a "metalcore" or "hardcore metal" source. Get over it. My point: As we disagree, others will disagree. There's no need for subgenres in headings. The genre's early years were its early years and recent developments are recent developments. 70.152.170.23 (talk) 06:01, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, that's ridiculous. Removing the subgenre headings is absurd. They enhance readability, provide logic to the layout, and are copiously supported by sources. Aryder779 (talk) 14:24, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The compromise system that was up for a while, with the "recent developments" section and tertiary level subsections, seemed to have little to recommend it, from my perspective. It added nothing in terms of clarity or accuracy and made the page considerably messier. Aryder779 (talk) 14:27, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
 * You gotta be kidding me, As "we" disagree? Only you disagree. And metallic hardcore is metalcore, but you can't get that, right? Oh and here's something that you can't vandalize, Wikipedia Policies.--Kmaster (talk) 19:31, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Metallic hardcore is slightly different than metalcore. For instance, Shadows Fall is essentially a metal band by default. But if someone called Shadows Fall "metallic hardcore" it would seem to suggest they are a "heavy metal-influenced hardcore band". It sounds odd doesn't it? Most would view Shadows Fall as primarily a metal band since they display alot of the elements of metal on a basic foundation. Now a band like Agnostic Front is commonly agreed as a hardcore band by default. Now if you described them as "metallic hardcore" it wouldn't feel out of place. It seems okay to describe them as a "heavy metal-influenced hardcore band" or "metallic hardcore" which the adjective (metallic) describes the noun (hardcore). I know it sounds a little geeky but it is just some food for thought. BertrumRedneck Bertrumredneck (talk) 02:00, 10 November 2008 (UTC)


 * This is utter tosh. Metalcore IS Metallic hardcore. It is a branch from Hardcore punk in its original state. That is why someone has previously mentioned "Why "metallic hardcore"? These groups, aside from the crossover bands, were the first to be branded metalcore, and many still refer to them as such." and then someone else mentioned "Many real hardcore fans call them metallic hardcore instead of metalcore".
 * The truth & fatcs are that when metalcore evolved it WAS "Metallic Hardcore" the same way Emocore is just a short form for "Emotional Hardcore". The problem arrises when fans coming from purely Metal background assume that all noisy aggressive music is a form / sub-genre of Heavy Metal. The fact is they are naive to the fact that punk grew noisier, aggressive and energetic before metal music and infact it was punk that actually influnced metal to bring forth NWOBHM (& Black Metal) and Thrash Metal (& Death Metal). Traditional Heavy Metal was a slower heavy bluesier sound which during the NWOBHM picked up tempo from influences from the faster more energetic punk scene. When thrash (& Death) metal later arrived it was influenced by NWOBHM (which in itself was influenced by punk) & the noisy agrressive Hardcore Punk scene. As for groups like Napalm Death, they were also originally genred as Hardcore punk alongside groups like Doom & Extreme Noise Terror when they first appeared and was mostly made public by Radio One DJ "John Peel".
 * It was later naive metal fans who stumbled across the group in the following years who mistakingly tried to call them Metal solely due to Death Metal bands adopting a similar gruff vocal style.
 * Crossover thrash & metalcore are two completely seperate genres. Crossover thrash was really developed by groups like DRI & SOD.
 * It is only my POV but some of the groups nowadays being listed as Metalcore such as Bullet For My Valentine & Avenged Sevenfold are more like Linkin Park only without rapping. They grew from the NU Metal scene as opposed to the Hardcore scene.


 * Hm, actually you're right. BFMV, Chimaira and 36 Crazyfists were nu metal bands.--Kmaster (talk) 19:31, 8 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually, "metallic hardcore" is less spesific. Metallic hardcore could be any hardcore band that shows any significant traces or elements of metal influence (this is not just my personal opinion. It is the obvious and correct way to read the compound of an adjective + a noun). That could be said of many crust bands, like Catharsis. Many bands can obviously be said to be "metallic", in that they have a relatively more metallic sound to them than most early hardcore bands. Metalcore on the other hand is a more precise term. It doesn't encompass any hardcore band with traces of (any kind of) metal sound to them, but sets some spesific requirements (breakdowns, double bass use, etc, as described in the article). As for your other point, that "metallic harcore" is sourced: It is obviously no valid argument in this context. As already pointed out: Both terms, "metallic hardcore" and "metalcore" could very well both be valid and both be sourced. Sourcing is not the problem in either case, whichever term you'd like to use. So it all comes down to which term you/we find more appropriate for the purpose here. If the use of "metalcore" can be sourced here (and it probably can), I think it is the way to go, as long as it is the more precise alternative.Amebix (talk) 02:08, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Vocals: Good cop/Bad cop?
I always hear or read about some of the metalcore bands having harsh vocals while having very clean and melodic singing (good cop/bad cop). Very apparent in The Devil Wears Prada and some others (especially mainstream post-hardcore influenced). Should it be mentioned or does it seem too stupid? The Phantomnaut (talk) 04:47, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The use of clean vocals in melodic metalcore is substantiated in the article. Aryder779 (talk) 16:46, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

yes I agree with the 2 previous users. (66.159.118.212 (talk) 04:21, 7 January 2012 (UTC))

Deathcore and melodic metalcore
Someone added a modification to the deathcore section, indicating that it's an offshoot of melodic metalcore. I've changed it back, because it's original research. I've not seen any evidence that deathcore groups take inspiration exclusively from melodic metalcore groups, though I suppose that tinge is probably there. I would tend to see Hatebreed, for example, as anticipating deathcore more than Shadows Fall or whatever. If anybody has a contrary source, feel free to discuss it here. Aryder779 (talk) 14:37, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The genre box currently lists deathcore as a derivative of melodic metalcore. The deathcore page is not clear on this issue; it does mention melodic riffing, but the lineage it traces, focusing on Suffocation, seems to indicate that deathcore is more a hybrid of metallic hardcore and brutal death metal. Aryder779 (talk) 18:16, 25 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, I couldn't hear any metallic-hardcore trace on nowadays "deathcore", so for me it sounds like melodic metalcore with more death metal/brutal death elements, don't you think? A reference would be great. --Kmaster (talk) 02:54, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm going to list "deathcore" as a melodic metalcore/death metal hybrid, if anyone wants to challenge this statement, be my guest, since there is not a valid reference yet. --Kmaster (talk) 02:55, 9 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Deathcore is more influenced by melodic death metal than melodic core —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.222.43.67 (talk) 06:46, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Aren't musics ending in -core all part of the punk rock movement.
Like musics ending in - metal are part of the metal movement. musics ending in -core are supposed to be part of the hardcore punk movement. Just as many genres of metal take major influence from punk music but remain a metal genre the same way many genres of punk are greatly influenced from metal but remain punk. Metalosaurus (talk) 17:13, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Today's metalcore (melodic metalcore) is not even part of the hardcore movement. For me "metalcore" is just melodic death metal, just replace the blast beats with breakdowns, so it's not punk rock, and it's not hardcore punk anymore. Kinda funny, it's rejected by metalheads as a metal genre, and it's rejected as a hardcore punk genre by hardcore fans. What the hell is then? Sounds more like a subgenre of melodeath to me. --Kmaster (talk) 19:49, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

true - I think its the name that gives it the impression its punk. genres ending in -core was a Hardcore punk invented thing. Each genre was basically an advancement on Hardcore. I.e. crustcore. Napalm Death was always classed as punk when they started. Even though they have said numerous times in interviews metal fans would still class them as death metal or similar so they invented the term grindcore (they were often associated alongside Hardcore, Anarcho- / Anarch-core, Skatecore & Crustcore punk etc when they started which is obviously the origin of the term).

Melodeath would sound more correct. Metalosaurus (talk) 20:37, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Metalcore is a genre that seems to be shared and denied by the metal and hardcore crowd. Metalcore is generally far more oriented in the metal world since the metal guitar sound and drumming overpowers much of the hardcore elements in the overall sound. So a genre ending with "core" doesn't mean it is part of the hardcore punk movement. If that was true then RAPCORE would be a hardcore punk genre but the term is used to describe acts like Limp Bizkit and even Rage Against the Machine. The term GRINDCORE is predominantly a metal sound and what seperates it from brutal death metal is grindcore's song lengths and lessened technicality. Bertrumredneck (talk) 19:34, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

It was originally only a punk thing. started from Hard"core" punk. As normal punk gave way to new wave post punk and the hardcore followers of punk rock developed into be predominently the Hardcore punk scene. With Hardcore Punk it was more politically motivated and many different variations of "hardcore" evolved based on the different images / messages. Grindcore evolved from Crust-core. Ask Napalm Death as they have constantly mentioned it.

Anarch-core (Anarcho-punk) is barely different from Hardcore punk musically but the message is different. The same is with Crust-core. Hardcore being the first title for the many -core genres and covers groups from Black Flag through to Discharge through to Intense Degree through to Extreme noise Terror and Napalm Death. Punk got more aggressive quicker than metal did hence punk influencing both the NWOBHM and then thrash metal which took heavy metal nearer to punk. Just as metal groups took influence from punk music. Punk bands (like Napalm Death, Extreme Noise Terror, Anal Cunt, Dr and the Crippens or Intense Degree) took influence from Heavy Metal (inc. thrash etc)

The problem arrises when fans of metal do not know or understand the hardcore punk bounderies and assume that everything with aggressive or loud guitaring, drums or vocals etc is metal. Its like fans hearing the new Emo based Screamo and assuming it is metal because of the vocals. It was because of metal fans classing Napalm Death as metal that the band actually invented the term "Grindcore". Obviously they couldn't call themselves as Crust-core as their message is different. It is through metal fans (and bands) lack of understanding punk that the use of -core get pulled into metal. -core was and is used by the different sides of "hardcore Punk".Metalosaurus (talk) 10:55, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Lamb of God
This band is always categorised as Metalcore, but i don't see them anywhere on the Metalcore page. Why is this ? (please don't just delete my post. i would like a straight answer please)
 * Maybe because this is not a list of metalcore bands.--Kmaster (talk) 18:48, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

OK man, it's just that they've recieved alot of public recognition and are one of the most talented metal(core) bands out there today. I thought they would heave been included on the page because of that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.64.114.238 (talk) 01:13, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Most talented? you know that Wiki doesn't work that way right? Lamb of God is more like groove metal/melodic metalcore, than just simply "metalcore" anyway. --Kmaster (talk) 04:41, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

-core genres are forms of hardcore punk like genres ending in metal are forms of heavy metal.
Any musics ending in -core are all types or evolutions of hardcore punk the same way musics ending in metal are types or evolutions of Heavy Metal. When punk rock rose to fame and died into post-punk new-wave / dark-wave rock etc it was the hardcore punk movement that was born and revived punk into new realms. It seems that there is a new fad of naive metal fans who think they have stumbled on a new word and are inventing uses of -core genres wrongly into metal. It like calling horror punk as horror metal. Everyone knows that musics ending in metal are forms of heavy metal and get the metal ending from Heavy Metal the same way musics ending in -core get the core ending from Hardcore.

It is simple to tell metal and punk apart as metal is played technically challenging with lead breaks and timing etc of a proffessional high quality manner (or an attempt at least) where as punk is played to an un-proffessional manner (based mostly on three-cored). The original true meaning of the word Punk is 'dead wood (as was used to start fires)'. In other words it means of poor quality. It was how the first punk rock bands got this name. When thrash metal (which although greatly influenced by the energy and sound of punk, it remained complex and structured enough to remain metal) met hardcore punk it used to be called "crossover" and not thrashcore, metalcore, sludgecore etc etc. The slightest little tweek in sound and hey some young five minute fan is trying to call it a new genre. I guess to impress his other little mates with his great knowledge of music styles. I'm sorry but knowing thousands of silly genre names doesn't make you a bigger fan or show greater appreciation of the music —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.236.213.52 (talk) 20:30, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Thrash metal is already hardcore punk influenced, crossover thrash is thrash metal with even more hardcore punk influences. Anyway this is not a forum--Kmaster (talk) 22:40, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

He does have a point though, albeit an unsourced one. JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 15:46, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Melodic Hardcore in relation to Melodic Metalcore
Surely Melodic Hardcore and Melodic Metalcore have ties similar to standard Hardcore and Metalcore. Less heavy melodic metalcore bands such as Atreyu certainly have Melodic Hardcore influences. I do realise the connection to Melodic Death metal as a result of bands like Shadows Fall and All that Remains, but what with Melodic Metalcore and Melodic Hardcore being so close, surely there is some kind of link. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.151.1.142 (talk) 00:06, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Melodic Screamo
Could someone add a redriection of melodic screamo as it is a term often used in the UK.
 * Uhm.. what about a source for that first? --Kmaster (talk) 04:38, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * google "melodic screamo"..

Melodic Metalcore
why are people trying to push this as a new genre within a genre when it doesn't even exist? Google it and you get no returns, so seriously, wise up. Metalcore is defined by the current crop of bands like Killswitch & Trivium etc, the melodic tag serves no purpose but to confuse and over populate an already heavily subscribed genre/sub-genre list... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.134.117.161 (talk) 20:07, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I see 93,200 results And there's enough sources (in case you didn't notice) and its has been discussed before so stop vandalizing because Wikipedia does not use personal opinions as a valid source. --Kmaster (talk) 19:14, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I see no reliable sources suggesting that this is a genuine subgenre (I have similar concerns with "melodic black metal" as well). It's an adjective frequently applied to various genres, but that in and of itself does not make this a legitimate genre. Are there any reliable sources discussing the genre itself, rather than using the term as a descriptor in an online review? If so, fair enough, but I didn't see any in the article. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 20:10, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Melodic black metal? well.. is like comparing Nargaroth with Cradle of Filth... same thing goes for metal and hardcore fusions (eg Integrity with Killswitch Engage). And, I repeat, haven't this topic been discussed before? (that includes references).--Kmaster (talk) 20:46, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Some interesting stuff: "Reading the various press reports detailing Killswitch's originality and legion of imitators is a little puzzling. The common denominator seems to be Jones' oscillation between clean singing and dry-heave Death Metal vocals (frequently referred to as Melodic Metalcore)" Music: Rules of Engagement, an article about KSE and the whole metalcore genre on Citybeat. --Kmaster (talk) 20:48, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, this has been discussed to death. See /Archive 2. It might seem a bit odd to establish an entire subgenre based on the prefix "melodic", but there really is a huge difference between Killswitch Engage, Avenged Sevenfold, et. al., on the one hand, and Converge and Hatebreed and Integrity on the other. The Revolver article cited supports this distinction, as does the Citybeat article Kmaster has just mentioned. Aryder779 (talk) 00:16, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The melodic tag is purely descriptive, it does not define an entire genre, there are variances within genres that describe subtle differences in their particular flavour of it, but that does not mean that every band who subscribe to a genre assume a new sub-genre to fit their style of it.86.134.117.161 (talk) 08:58, 13 April 2009 (UTC)User blah blah blah
 * Did you forget about melodic death metal? melodic black metal? melodic hardcore? it does define a genre. --Kmaster (talk) 21:13, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Right now it appears the only reference used for melodic metalcore as a genre itself is a deadlink. The only ref for melodic metalcore as an actual genre that I can see that is more than just adjective used by reviewers is the allmusic Atreyu review.--3family6 (talk) 18:43, 13 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Okay, it's definitely a genre, but I'm not sure if there's any source that gives an in depth explanation as to what it is. Anyway, I found a ton of links that at least mention the style in some way, I'll put them here so they can be sorted through. Feel free to add any, as long as they're reliable.--3family6 (talk) 12:44, 22 March 2011 (UTC)


 * http://heavymetal.about.com/od/b/fr/blessthefall-witness.htm | http://heavymetal.about.com/od/b/fr/blessthefall-witness.htm | http://heavymetal.about.com/od/f/gr/freya-allhailtheend.htm | http://heavymetal.about.com/od/l/gr/lightthiscity-theherocycle.htm | http://www.allmusic.com/album/force-fed-lies-r1630787/review | http://www.allmusic.com/artist/destroy-the-runner-p824015 | http://www.allmusic.com/album/changes-r1270284/review | http://www.allmusic.com/album/the-awakening-r1067755 | http://www.allmusic.com/album/controller-r1398781 | http://www.allmusic.com/album/manifesto-r1456398 | http://www.allmusic.com/artist/p821152 | http://allmusic.com/album/lullabies-for-the-dormant-mind-r1484643/review | http://www.allmusic.com/artist/it-prevails-p886430 | http://www.allmusic.com/album/r741708 | http://www.allmusic.com/album/r942474 | http://www.allmusic.com/artist/in-this-moment-p859292 |

Vandalism
These IPs have been vandalizing the metalcore article and some metalcore bands by removing sourced content. All of them from London, with the same ISP and same characteristics. Probably the same vandal with dynamic IP. --Kmaster (talk) 19:01, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Special:Contributions/86.134.51.78 (warning level 1, LOCATION: UK-LONDON ISP: BT-CENTRAL-PLUS)
 * Special:Contributions/86.134.117.161 (warning level 3, LOCATION: UK-LONDON ISP: BT-CENTRAL-PLUS)
 * Special:Contributions/86.150.99.255 (warning level 2, LOCATION: UK-LONDON ISP: BT-CENTRAL-PLUS)


 * Yes, that is likely. I filed a WP:SPI report on those three IPs along with 92.244.191.81, but it was closed and assumed that wasn't considered sockpuppeteering. However, yet another IP has popped up since then: 195.72.161.1. If another unrelated IP appears, making those same edits, I'll file another report. Tim  meh  !  02:24, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

The article language is too complex to be understood by your average person
The term "Umbrella" in "Umbrella Term" needs to be taken out, unnecessary word that makes the point of the article unclear. Also, can't a better word be used instead of "portmanteau", such as fusion or blending or something, Portmanteau is not a word your average person would understand, and seeing this is a music articlem, it makes the use of this word inappropriate. 99.253.12.31 (talk) 03:35, 21 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I think this is exactly why we have a simple Wikipedia. FireCrystal (talk) 03:57, 21 April 2009 (UTC)


 * It's not really an "umbrella term" anyway. I've revised the lead sentences for simplicity. Aryder779 (talk) 15:03, 25 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The average person can learn what they mean then. 83.67.39.175 (talk) 16:40, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Deathcore
Just a little questioning, but branching-off things from other articles always makes it way into seeming like it's inacurate, I mean, the full deathcore article doesn't directly state that deathcore was invented by Job for a Cowboy or Despised Icon, because seriously, how was deathcore pionered by these two groups when Underoath performed this style in 1998? (See: Act of Depression & Cries of the Past) - GunMetal Angel  18:11, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Does it matter? Not like deathcore is a real subgenre of death metal or metalcore, anyway. 69.254.1.61 (talk) 13:19, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Umm... yeah it is, that's obvious. - GunMetal Angel  20:46, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Metallic Hardcore vs Metalcore
Some believe metalcore and metallic hardcore are the same but in fact they have differences. The following are bands that have been described across the net (from professional websites and non-professional blogs) as metallic hardcore (crust punk and anarcho bands do not belong on this list):

METALLIC HARDCORE: Hatebreed, Agnostic Front, Black My Heart, Earth Crisis, Born from Pain, No Innocent Victim, Death Before Dishonor, Madball, Path of Resistence, Pulling Teeth, Ringworm, Thick As Blood, Terror, Throwdown, The Warriors, xAFBx, xTyrantx, Since the Flood, Show of Force, Shattered Realm, Shipwrecked A.D., On Broken Wings, Far From Ruin, The Orangeburg Massacre

Now metalcore bands (melodic and non-melodic) are METAL bands with HARDCORE influences such as:

METALCORE: Shadows Fall, Killswitch Engage, A Life Once Lost, As I Lay Dying, Bullet For My Valentine, The Agonist, Beneath the Sky, Burnt by the Sun, Diecast, Darkest Hour, Chimaira, The Autumn Offering, Demon Hunter, God Forbid, Every Time I Die, In This Moment, Misery Signals, Himsa, Parkway Drive, Sinai Beach, Silent Civilian, Atreyu, All That Remains, Still Remains, Caliban, Better Left Unsaid, Unearth

It is not that difficult to tell them apart. The metallic hardcore bands stick to a strict traditional hardcore punk song-structure, emphasis on simpler chord progressions than modal guitar riffs, rarely, if any guitar solos and fairly shorter songs than metalcore bands. Some include a breakdown or two the same way metalcore bands do but to tell both genres apart it all depends on the song-structures.69.177.23.210 (talk) 18:50, 24 September 2009 (UTC) Bertrum Redneck

Well, it's good someone knows the difference between metalcore and metallic hardcore. Very good. I wish this could put an end to all those idiots who insist metalcore isn't metal because it ends with "core" (these are the same people arguing that grindCORE is metal), although it probably won't. Still, thanks for adding this on the talk page. I don't know whether the other editors will be as enthusiastic about this as I am. Although, you could have added Lamb of God to the list of metalcore bands, because they're one of the most important metalcore bands of all time. --LordNecronus (talk) 14:49, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, very good. People are learning the difference between metalcore and metallic hardcore. Did you know that there are also 2 types of melodic metalcore? There is post-hardcore mixed with metal such as Atreyu, 36 Crazyfists and Underoath, and there is melodic death metal mixed with the breakdowns of metallic hardcore such as Parkway Drive, As I Lay Dying and Killswitch Engage. Kezian Avenger  15:12, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * That's enough original research for today, get some valid sources and maybe we'll discuss about that later. --Kmaster (talk) 06:20, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Don't worry. I don't add info that isn't sourced. I may add something to the melodic metalcore section or the instrumentation style though if I find some sourced info. Kezian Avenger  14:56, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Almost all "metallic hardcore" bands can also be cited as metalcore, but not all metalcore bands can be considered metallic hardcore. It's useful to think of metallic hardcore as a subgenre of metalcore, just like melodic metalcore and mathcore are. The original metalcore (or metallic hardcore) bands were hardcore bands influenced by metal; it wasn't until several years after the origins of the genre that more metal influenced or metal focused "metalcore" bands like Shadows Fall came into play. "Metallic hardcore" is metalcore, even if newer metalcore bands tend to stray away from those origins. VanPunker (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:47, 27 July 2010 (UTC).

Killswitch Engage
Killswitch should be included in one of the examples listed under metalcore bands, they are arguably the best and most famous metalcore band. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.151.167.24 (talk) 19:31, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

"Arguably" is a weasel word here, it's your opinion that "they're the best and most famous metalcore band", you must give citation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by VanPunker (talk • contribs) 03:51, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Hardcore Metal
What the hell? Hardcore metal redirects to metalcore? They're not the same genre... there's no elements of punk in hardcore at all. -NeF (talk) 17:06, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * There is no such official genre as "hardcore metal". And hardcore is a subgenre of punk so there is a lot of punk in hardcore. Hardcore is short for hardcore punk and even though modern hardcore is influenced a lot by metal the basic song structure is punk rock and not heavy metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bertrumredneck (talk • contribs) 17:02, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, you make a good point; if it's not an official genre it shouldn't have it's own article. I guess I need to try and find the official genre for this style of music then. Music genres are so nonsensical sometimes. -NeF (talk) 17:06, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Make an article for hardcore metal. Portillo (talk) 00:55, 17 April 2010 (UTC)


 * This is the article for hardcore-metal. It's considered that due to incomparison to most punk metals its is pretty much in its own league Jonjonjohny (talk) 17:25, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

There's no such thing as 'punk metal' outside the realms of wikipedia. No source uses it. Granted; there are various types of music that are fusions between hardcore punk and heavy metal of various subgenres, but some are hardcore incorporating metal influences, and some are heavy metal incorporating hardcore punk influences.

Metal with hardcore punk influences:
 * Thrash metal (speed metal+hardcore punk influences)
 * Sludge metal (doom metal+hardcore punk influences)

Hardcore with metal influences:


 * metalcore (hardcore punk + -mainly melodic death-metal)
 * deathcore (metalcore with a brutal death metal influence
 * grindcore (hardcore punk + thrash metal and death metal influenes
 * crust punk (anarcho-punk, oi! punk + speed- and early thrash metal)

As for the term 'hardcore metal'; that's a bit of an oxymoron seeing as 'metalcore' is a corruption of 'metallic hardcore'; which is the other way around.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 20:01, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Mathcore
In my opinion, mathcore is better characterized as a sub genre of hardcore than metalcore, as mathcore doesn't really have that much in common with metal core outside of the hardcore ancestry. Thoughts? 173.72.3.243 (talk) 22:03, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
 * i disagree since it evolved out of metalcore. but i see your point. also for adding to the mathcore section. A lot of bands that are mathcore are classed as progressive metalcore. in the mathcore section should it be given the name or progressive and technical metalcore? Jonjonjohny (talk) 11:12, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Derivatives
Melodic death metal, youth crew, and melodic hardcore are NOT derivatives of melodic metalcore! Also, shouldn't Electronic hardcore be listed as a derivative of melodic metalcore or listed in the fusion category? NoremacDaGangsta (talk)
 * yes it should be a derivative. and also to what you said about Melodic death metal, youth crew, and melodic hardcore i dont think people on this wiki page know what derivative genre means for those reading the definition is on this and is: Derivative forms are styles of music that are related to the subject genre but are considered separate or developed enough musicologically to be considered parent/root genres in their own right, i.e., rock music > heavy metal music, punk rock, etc. and even so how can melodeath and youth crew be a drevivative if they are influences? Its a paradox. Jonjonjohny (talk) 16:40, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Discharge was never a "street punk" band
Street punk is pretty much a synonim for Oi - simple, vulgar punk rock with lyrics about working class life in a big city. Discharge had nothing to do with that scene, it's ridiculous even to associate this band with street punk as they were in fact the originators of the UK hardcore —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.10.80.171 (talk) 12:39, 14 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Discharge were, in fact, a street punk band, along with the Exploited, GBH, and Anti-Nowhere League. Street punk became distinct from Oi (Sham 69, Cockney Rejects, etc.) in '82 because of its much greater influence from Motörhead. See Ian Glasper's Burning Britain: The History of UK Punk 1980-1984. UK hardcore was a later development that borrowed from American hardcore and other elements (see Glasper's Trapped in a Scene: UK Hardcore 1985-1989). 173.51.248.42 (talk) 22:27, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

what about pantera?
pantera is also credited for laying the foundation of metalcore. But it only mentions sepultura. shouldn't pantera be added as well. metalcore is mentioned in the pantera page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.161.55.154 (talk) 17:35, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Underoath
I don't think Underoath should be mentioned here, since, with the exception of their first two EPs, they include very few of what could be called "breakdowns" in their music, and none of them are emphasized. --Invisiboy42293 (talk) 05:53, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
 * They appear to be sourced as notable in the genre, because the ref is a book or magazine I do not have I cannot personally vouch for the integrity of the ref, but I am sure someone who does have it can vouch for it. Whether they should be under melodic metalcore could be debated though.--3family6 (talk) 18:07, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Metalcore grew out of New York Hardcore styled bands
Metalcore grew out of New York Hardcore styled bands such as Agnostic Front and not Sepultura. Sure bands like Sepultura may have influenced some of the early groups but to say they gave birth to the genre is a lie. Groups like Earth Crisis, Integrity etc were solely from a hardcore front and only incorporated into their music metal influences. That is why it is called metal"core" as it is a sub-genre of hard"core" the same way sub genres of heavy "metal" end in "metal" (i.e. power "metal")

cite one quote where the first metalcore bands such as Earth Crisis say they were spawned from any thrash metal band such as Sepultura. Sure they may have been inspired by them. The first groups spawned solely from a hardcore background.

History subdivision
A quick question: Wouldn't it be more accurate to title the history sections as time periods, and move things like "metallic hardcore" and "melodic metalcore" to the subgenres section?--3family6 (talk) 12:37, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Grindcore/ Napalm Death
Isn't this an important early development in the development of merged extreme metal/hardcore punk sound... as much as crossover thrash? DDidn't see it in the article. I don't know enough about it to edit it myself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.174.212.21 (talk) 00:10, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

I reiterate this question.... why isn't this in the article? Keithramone33 (talk) 06:32, 18 February 2016 (UTC)Keithramone33

90's metalcore and onwards
Isn't the majority of metalcore from the 90's onwards a mix of post hardcore and metal, I can't heard any nyhc or 80's hardcore influence to any of it whatsoever? Most of the bands seem heavily influenced by emo and pop punk rather than actual hardcore... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.81.110.94 (talk) 05:40, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Groove Metal as stylistic origin?
Seeing as Sepultura are credited as "laying the foundations" of the genre, as well as some other groove bands, shouldn't groove metal be added to the list of stylistic origins? VampireKilla (talk) 13:22, 24 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Groove metal falls under the umbrella term extreme metal, which is listed as stylistic origin. MA SHAUN IX 01:34, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Suggestion of re-structuring
As a notice perhaps melodic metalcore could be moved into the Subgenres heading rather than the history, since it describes the style and practitioners rather than history. Also the first two history sections could be merged as just Precursors as they both talk about the progression of punk and heavy metal fusion genres and crossover leading up to metalcore. The commercial success section could just be expanded to encompass all of history of the genre in the 2000's and the metalic hardcore follow suite with just talking about the 90's as there is a 10 year gap. Jonjonjohny (talk) 21:40, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Sepultura?
"Sepultura layed the foundation for the genre" WTF??? Could you please find for that some other source beside MTV 'couse I couldn't. --93.137.169.30 (talk) 22:17, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

-Me neither as it happens. Way I've always seen it, Sepultura started as a straight up death metal band on their first twon albums, incorporated more thrash metal elements whilst still retaining some death metal elements-thus becoming death-thrash metal on 'Beneath the Remains' and 'Arise'; before releasing one of the seminal groove metal releases with 'Chaos A.D.'. 'Roots' was recogbnisably a nu metal album; what with the Ross Robinson production, lack of extensice solos and cameos by Jonathan Davis, David Silveria and DJ Lethal; before returning to a groove metal sound on the albums they did without Max Cavalera afterwards. Granted, these albums had a recognisably hardcore influence, but so did the death-thrash albums and Chaos A.D.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 11:58, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Thrash metal?
Extreme metal includes thrash metal, black metal, doom metal, death metal and speed metal. Put thrash metal and extreme metal together in the infobox is irrelevant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.103.94.210 (talk) 20:17, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Thrash is not technically extreme metal • GunMetal Angel  09:02, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

-er, I think you'll find it is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.3.142.140 (talk) 12:28, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't think breakdowns came from hardcore punk.
I can't find anything to back up the idea that halftime "chug chug" breakdowns came from hardcore punk. I know there isn't much of a clear definition of what exactly a metalcore breakdown is and I know Bad Brains had half time passages in fast songs but I can't find any evidence of this in any hardcore punk songs. The first of those kind of breakdowns I am almost certain is Domination by Panters if anyone can find another example of an earlier breakdown I'd love to see but otherwise people have to stop referring to "hardcore breakdowns" in any metalcore related articles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.41.1.88 (talk) 17:07, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

-Thrash metal quite noticably had breakdowns: there's a breakdown in 'Raining Blood' by Slayer (1986), (the part before Tom Araya sings 'raining blood!' from a lacerated sky!), theres a breakdown in 'Battery' by Metallica (1986) there's a breakdown in 'One' by Metallica (1988)(although of course by this point Metallica weren't really playing thrash metal.) There is a breakdown in 'Caught In A Mosh' by Anthrax,(1987)and in addition, there's a breakdown in 'Code Red' (1999) by Sodom, there's one in 'Enemy of God' by Kreator (2005) as well. Not to mention in basically any album by a thrash metal band, ever. I jest of course, but breakdowns ARE s tylistic trait in thrash metal, which is all basically due to the fact that thrash metal takes a lot of influence from hardcore punk; particularly in respect of the vocals, the rhythm guitar style, and the drums. (indeed, Slayer released an album of hardcore punk covers called 'undisputed attitude'.) Thrash metal is essentially a cross between NWOBHM-styled speed metal like Motorhead, Tank and Venom, and hardcore punk bands like Discharge and GBH (something often missed by people ignorant of this metal subgenre) and; seeing as neither Motorhead and Venom used breakdowns; its quite clear from listening to earlier hardcore punk bands that the 'mosh parts' in those bands are what later became in thrash metal and stuff like metalcore the 'breakdown.'What Pantera were playing was a somewhat slower, groove based offshoot of thrash metal called 'groove metal' or 'post thrash'; that also takes influence from hardcore punk.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 15:01, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Well I don't think just because they're not present in NWOBHM means that they came from hardcore punk. We still have no example of any hardcore punk band playin anything resembling the breakdowns in modern metalcore. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.26.117 (talk) 16:46, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Granted extensive breakdowns like you get in metalcore weren't present in hardcore punk, but there were still examples of them to be found in various nyhc bands throughout the early to late 80s; where they were known as 'mosh parts'. Thrash metal (notably the more hardcore-influenced bands such as Anthrax) simply made them longer. That's also why metal subgenres like for example power metal and straight-up doom metal (who arose after hardcore punk) that are not influenced by hardcore punk do not use breakdowns at all, and subgenres like thrash metal, groove metal, and sludge metal that are influenced by it do use them.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 19:38, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

The sung part of the chorus clearly comes from punk (if not hardcore punk). It should also be noted that the term "breakdown" is an anachronism when referring to bands like Slayer, Metallica, Anthrax and Pantera. Breakdowns are made up of "party tricks" that are used in just about every genre of metal. Finding a band in particular that "started it" is meaningless as you'll find it everywhere. 84.208.181.207 (talk) 17:39, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

alt. metal as an influence
makes a lot of sense, you should also add crossover thrash. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.32.220.148 (talk) 20:43, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

"General Heavy Metal Characteristics"
Not only is this statement unsourced, but what 'general' characteristics to all metal subgenres does metalcore have exactly? If this is referring to breakdowns, then granted, you get breakdowns in thrash metal and sludge metal (and some death metal) but this is basically due to the influence hardcore punk had on thrash metal and sludge metal (and, as death metal developed directly from thrash metal, death metal by association.) But you don't get breakdowns in black metal, doom metal and its myriad offshoots, gothic metal, or speed metal, and if its not referring to breakdowns, I can't think of any musical characteristics that metalcore shares with all metal subgenres. It does with some, but not all of them by any rate. This sounds like the work of someone who knows little as regards metal in general.

Secondly, in the same section it says "metalcore is distinguished from other punk metal fusions by its emphasis on general heavy metal characteristics?"

-So; thrash metal and sludge metal don't have 'general heavy metal characteristics'? Both are a fusion between metal and hardcore, (as regards hardcore punk's influence of thrash metal, see the recent metal evolution episode on thrash metal-sludge metal is basically a fusion of doom metal and hardcore punk) and both have general heavy metal characteristics (seeing as they're both subgenres of heavy metal) so, metalcore is hardly alone. Also, use of the term 'punk metal' is something I can't find anywhere outside of wikipedia. Original research methinks? Not that I'm saying of course that there aren't types of music that are fusions of metal and punk/hardcore punk, but there are no sources that warrant use of the term on here.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 23:14, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Early 2000s?
Melodic metalcore only went mainstream in 2004-2005, the article says it became popular in the early 2000s but isn't 2005 considered to be mid-2000s? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Npgust (talk • contribs) 12:50, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 19 February 2013
well the problem here is that integrity is not one of the pioneering bands of metalcore, in fact they are not even a real metalcore band at all.

96.250.84.76 (talk) 00:44, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: This is a statement, not a specific request to edit the article. Please do not use the tag unless you have a specific request to edit the article. &mdash; KuyaBriBri Talk 15:45, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Total Revamp
Alot of the information about Metalcore that exists on this page is untrue and needs reworking. There is no such thing as Melodic Metalcore/Metallic Hardcore. It's just the times have changed and different sounds have been used or not used over the past two decades. Instead of putting down "Melodic Metalcore, Metallic Hardcore" Either just move Metallic Hardcore to its own Wikipedia Article, or just take it and turn it into Pre-2000's and have Melodic Metalcore as Post 2000's or something similar. Everyone who has watched Metalcore evolve over the years knows that those are not real depictions or subgenre's, it's just Metalcore. Take a look at the Melodic Hardcore page and how it shows the characteristics of the genre at the bottom will explain the changes in the genre the past two decades and such and that's what I think needs done here. Also, if Sepultura influenced the genre, then in that case every Thrash/Hardcore band could be listed as a huge influence. I just think this article strays away from the facts and some Nu Metal/Hardcore guy took control of the page. Also there needs to be a listing of more bands throughout the 2010's as it kinda stops with The Devil Wears Prada. Might want to list how bands are starting to drop lower and change their sound once again, taking characteristics from the new Djent model of playing and fusing it with Metalcore. One last thing, what happened to the Cultural Origins part at the top box? Did someone just unroot that. I've just been following this page for about 7 years and have had to deal with people just fucking this page over. Well it needs a revamp and a bigger explanation and examples in it.

This page needs deleted
Someone has taken it upon themselves to create another article on what is called Metalcore, and port what is modern Metalcore to the articles name "Melodic Metalcore" which is still not cited as even a real thing. Do we really need to create subgenre's of subgenre's? This is preposterous. There is just Metalcore, and even the Metallic Hardcore section of the page isn't a real thing. As I don't want to edit these things with the correct information myself due to whoever is vandalizing these pages to report me for the very thing they're doing, I'm just going to keep posting complaints until this problem is delt with. So, I apologize to anyone I am bothering but if you felt strongly about something but could not do anything about it as the other person slanders you'd be in my position. Thanks though!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melodic_metalcore