Talk:Metallica/Archive 2

Plane Crash
When I view the article, the first sentence states that all four band members were killed in a plane crash in february 2007, which is obviously incorrect. When i go to edit or revert it the text doesn't show up.

Vandalism of photo description
Anonymous users keep vandalizing the description of the image of Metallica where they are all standing outside.

I have noticed this as well. Could we get this locked for only registered users to be able to edit Satanical Eve 15:59, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Heavily Armed: A Punk Rock Tribute to Goro
I can't seem to find any references to this release anywhere on the internet. Google shows only Wikipedia results in this and another article.

Metallica is a Thrash Metal band
I'm getting tired of everyone tells me that Metallica is a heavy metal band. Metallica was together with Slayer the founders of the Thrash Metal. No song on Kill Em´ All is any way close to being a heavy metal song(except Jump In The Fire). When did heavy metal start playing fast and engertic? Now they are trying to get back to the trash after playing some ordinary metal. Are there any songs that are related to heavy metal except Jump In The Fire? Their best albums are Kill Em' All, Ride The Lightning, Master Of Puppets ...And Justice For All. These four albums are trash metal and nothing else. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.101.117.61 (talk &bull; contribs) 2006-02-03 14:00:47.
 * You make some good points but give us an example of a heavy metal bad to contrast with. So if Metallica moves up to thrash then what moves up to fill the void for heavy metal - you aren't trying to move Winger up into the heavy metal category are YOU? --Supercoop 20:23, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Some examples of heavy metal bands are Dio, Angra, Saxxon, and Iron Maiden. Their styles of playing are very different from early Metallica. If you guys really want to know specific things about what makes a band's style a certain type of metal, I'd recomend checking out the Heavy Metal page and reading into all the subgenres.Cinema Void 18:04, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it's called Thrash metal, not trash metal. Rbarreira 18:52, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Trash Metal? lol...

"Trash Metal" Heh.

Idiot.

Slusk! Don't tell me that Battery or Master Of Puppets are heavy metal songs or i'm going to puke!! :)

Actually, in Europe, the mistranslation has firmly planted it as "Trash Metal." Over here in the States, it's Thrash.

If you count Britain as in Europe thats dead wrong, every Brittish metal head I know knows the genre as Thrash Metal, as do the music magazines. Also I must say that the first few albums are an unique blend of Heavy and Thrash metal which is the reason for their success. ESPECIALLY Master of Puppets, all the songs on that album I place firmly in the heavy metal genre, not just a subjective view because the master of puppets album usually comes 1st in the 'Top 100 Heavy metal albums' that rock magazines have in thier articles. Use the brittish magazine 'Kerrang' for example, who recently published 'Remastered', an album celebrating 20 years of consistent heavy metal success with a wide range of brittish and American bands (a mix of Thrash, Heavy, Punk and even Emo) who covered the songs. JOSHH 195.195.14.200 08:36, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

READ THIS AND STOP DEBATING

they may be thrash in the early days but they are heavy in black album days and then hard rock in load reload days then are heavy metal in st. anger Lars says it himself he hates the band being called heavy metal or thrash to them they are Hard Rock. go read there books. period. and if u wanna complain to me about go rent the book fromt he library and read it. -SlayedDesire

Moved to top, as I feel it is important.

Hmmm, FOUR thrash albums, over two heavy metal. I recommend a permanent change to thrash as primary genre. 68.125.143.177 07:53, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

metallica is a genre defying band for example there are almost no simalarities between load and kill em all but they are both metallica--REBELYIS 23:22, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah but shouldn't the primary genre be thrash, seeing as the bulk of their discography is? - B. Heafy

Metallica are a Thrash Metal band. Even though some of their music isn't. -Echo


 * Due to a similar debate on it:wiki, I have been blocked for a day from editing the Italian article about them, and since that I've understand much more about their music (by buying all of their studio albums). Metallica never played heavy metal (neither on 1980s albums and St.Anger), more exactly they featured only HARD ROCK influences on their 1990s works. -- Egr (talk), 10/19/2006

The first album Kill Em all was straight Speed/Thrash metal. The second Ride the Lightning started to depart from that of thrash/speed. It still had its roots in it but by tbe time Master Of Puppets was released you had a full fledge Heavy Metal album and not just a thrash/speed album Satanical Eve 16:02, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Does it honestly matter what Metallica should be pigeon holed as. They are the probably the biggest alternative band in the world. In my opinion they are metal, simple as that. Forget the sub-genres of thrash, heavy, and whatever else you wish to discuss. Metallica transcend all of this, they stand alone and whatever song you hear from whatever album you always know that its a Metallica tune. Why do people have to pigeon hole things.

''Actually, in Europe, the mistranslation has firmly planted it as "Trash Metal." Over here in the States, it's Thrash.'' Actually, in Europe, only morons and ignorants call it "Trash Metal. It's Thrash, no matter how many don't know better. 84.174.22.176 23:59, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Who took the logo off
Whoever replaced the logo at the top of the page with the pic of the band playing, please change that back. If you want to stick a picture of the band live, put it somewhere else in the page. We need the actual logo back up.

I put that pic there because someone replaced the original logo with the logo from AC/DC. Also, I didn't have the Metallica one on-hand so I used that pic. - Joe

I edited the past members section
I think Ron McGovney has every right to be considered a past member since he was indeed a member.

Also who put in that AC/DC logo. >.>;; - Joe

Joe: Ok, I fixed it myself. Of course I didn't have the original logo so I compromised with one of the pics in the article.

Ok, people keep removing Dave Mustaine as being listed as having played on the first pressing of Metal Massacre's Hit The Lights. Yes, Lloyd Grant played a fill on that song -- but, Mustaine was on it as well. Grant was never in the band, only played one fill on one song, never played live them them. (http://www.intersandman.com/resource/others/index.html) - JD

IMPORTANT: Regarding album sales
It seems very unlikely Metallica has sold 200+ million albums worldwide; the number, which shouldn't include singles sales, is IN FACT closer to 150 million. Unfortunately, there is always someone changing the number to 200 million. Metallica haven't sold 200 million albums yet! That's for sure!

However now we have people saying that Metallica have sold less than 100 million records worldwide. This is simply untrue.


 * Regarding album sales. The only viable citation(so far) is the one posted from a news article from the bands own webpage in 2003. The page claims Metallica sales as of that year are 85 million. To date St Anger adds in another 1.7m(U.S.) and the 'Metallica' album added another million. If you can find a proper source that can verify that the band somehow sold over 10 million albums worldwide in the last 3 years then it can replace the only valid sales source the page currently has.(4 tildes->) Anger22 19:57, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

We shouldn't just cite the American sales, but list the worldwide sales as well.

Someone needs to confirm this and thus update aswell, Outside US sales are 40+ Million for example check this link, read in the description http://www.amazon.com/Metallica-MASTER-PUPPETS-T-shirt-Black/dp/B000G1CCFE

It states that the have sold 40million outside US and that makes up roughly 97 million... considering sales till now it should be safe to state the 100million mark.., I just need some more authentication to this - or if someone has any other views, so that it can be updated soon. Akeeq 05:23, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually I have updated it, if anyone thinks otherwise let me know.. Akeeq 05:24, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree that the totals are probably closer to yours, but, there is still no new citations for it so it can't be changed to say anything different than what the current cites say. Those refs are dated and new ones definitely need to be found. But "guessing" that they are higher goes against Wiki's verifiable rules. I browse the news periodically looking for a press release that indicates the global numbers but haven't found one yet. Something will pop up soon. Anger22 10:33, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes I agree guessing is not what encyclopedias are about, but the site I mentioned states that, so that can be taken as a reference don't you think so? Akeeq 16:06, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

The only thing about your ref...is that it is a word for word paste of a previous version of the Wikipedia Metallica article.see link And a Wiki rule is that Wikipedia(or it's mirrors or sites quoting Wiki) can't be used as a source for itself. Best bet is to keep searching through press releases from the band itself.(like the ref that's already there) Sooner or later they should release something where they peacock in how successful they are and then the lead in can finally be updated. Anger22 18:10, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh! I see, now this makes more sense to me, thanks for the clarification mate! :)Akeeq 22:11, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Large Section of Band History MISSING
There appears to be no info on the 1984 to 1990 period! The article goes straight from the kill'em all days to the Black album! This must be amended urgently as you all know well that this was one of the more important parts of te bands history, what with losing cliff burton and releasing 3 KILLER albums. They have sold 65 million$in the USA and 40 million$ worldwide.105 million total


 * Yes, I agree, the trilogy of Lightning/Puppets/Justice was quite obviously when the band peaked and there is more needed ont is topic as those three albums featured metallica's best songs to date - Fade to Black, Call of Ktulu, Master of Puppets, Welcome Home (Sanitarium), Orion, One, To Live is to Die and Dyers Eve.

Band Location
Can anyone explain to me why LA is noted as the bands location not San Francisco on the wiki Metallica Page? That is where the band is based, San Rafael SF, USA. That is where the Metallica 'HQ' is listed on album notes. Timbo78 08:43, 29 October 2006 (UTC) Timbo78 03 May 2006

Hetfield and Ulrich moved from L.A. to S.F. in the early 80s. But yes, we should call them a band from S.F., that's where they really started as a band. That's the "real" Metallica.


 * i agree. they are from SF/Bay Area, not LAPlatypusjones 13:30, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

On recording of new album
can someone put up something to verify that Metallica is currently working on a new album there is something to verify that, it you go on http://www.metallica.com on the first page theres a video link we there talking about the new album

Metallica are recording the new album. When I saw them live a few moths ago, they played a track that they simply called "The New Song". James Hetfield then went on to say that it was a track from the new album that they are currently recording. I have no idea when it will be released though, my guess is probably Mid 2007. -Echo.

Napster and Garage Inc liner notes
I wonder if there is a way of feeding in some interesting stuff from the liner notes of Garage Inc, quoting here a section written (just over a year before the Napster complaints) by Hetfield:


 * I would stay over at [Lars Ulrichs] place for days at a time, making tapes of his records and sleeping on the carpet.

So here he was publicly admitting to committing a fairly large amount of copyright violations of mostly indie label bands that would likely never regularly sell more than a few thousand copies, and within a couple of years of that is complaining to Napster when they were selling millions of albums with each new release. Sfnhltb 20:45, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Not only that, but with Garage Days and Garage Inc., Metallica released not one, but TWO albums profitting off other peoples's music!
 * Performing, recording and selling music written by other people does not violate copyrights. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.126.209.1 (talk) 11:13, 12 December 2006 (UTC).

'South Park'
The song "Hell isn't Good" is often wrongly attributed to James Hetfield. Sorry guys, but it's Trey Parker doing a James Hetfield. Feel free to look at the song credits at imdb, or any music database. Link: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0158983/soundtrack

Wrong. It -is- James Hetfield singing (according to South Park's official website, www.southparkstudios.com) http://www.southparkstudios.com/show/display_faq_search.php?section=2&id=11287&search_faq=

That's correct, it IS the real James Hetfield on "Hell Isn't Good." The band that's credited with the song is DVDA and lists Trey Parker and Matt Stone as members of the group. The name DVDA is a reference to one of Stone and Parker's earlier films, "Orgazmo". Interestingly, one of the reasons Jason Newsted gave for leaving Metallica was Lars and Jaymzs' autocratic control over the group and their forbidding Jason to release any of the work he did with side projects or other groups. Jason blasted Jaymz as being a hypocrite for not allowing Jason to record outside Metallica, while Jaymz had guest vocals on a number of other records with other bands including the aforementioned DVDA.

Statistics?
Now that we have the band infobox, do we really need the Statistics section as well? I would suggest that it should be deleted. Aphasia83 00:28, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Missing DVD
Why there is no DVD for 2 of One?

Why would there be? They have the videos on their site if you want to see them. That was released before the internet got popular and after it on regular MTV rotation. Dudewhiterussian 02:55, 13 December 2005 (UTC)


 * But how about the people without internet? it will be great to have 2 of One and all of their videos on DVD. --MarioV 22:46, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

This is just me guessing, but could we assume that there is some sort of legal issue regarding movie footage from "Johnny Got His Gun" is why "2 of One" hasn't been released on DVD? Or why Metallica hasn't put out a DVD of their videos on the basis that if they can't put out the JGHG remix/mash-up of "One", that they might as well not release a DVD music video comp on the basis that omitting "One" would just give their critics more ammo to attack them with?

Selling Out
Selling out is subjective, and therefore cannot be stated as anything more than the opinion of a percentage of the fanbase. As such, the first usage in the second paragraph, "...the band quickly sold out..." is an editor's opinion rather than a statement of the fans' viewpoints, i.e., "stylistic changes that fostered accusations of "selling out"." Therefore, I am removing it. Dudewhiterussian 09:50, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

You seem to be forgetting that Metallica did "sell out," every show that they played.

Nice Newsted quote.

There's gotta be some way of putting that in there, though. I have followed Metallica all my life and have no problem with their music stylings of the 90's, but even I acknowledge that a LARGE percentage of their fan base accused them of selling out.

True, original Metallica fans know that BOB ROCK is the anti-Christ. He killed our band.

Sell Out is the Wrong Term
Although the collective consciousness has confusion with association to the term "Selling Out", and Newsteads example is quite correct within its own context, I propose this is not the term which accurately conveys the feeling of a fan from before the Black, or AJFA album.

Metallica lost their spirit.

Every Metallica album is a Metallica album, Whether you like it or not. I recall speaking with someone back in 1990 who saw Metallica on the RTL tour at the Channel in Boston. He claimed many believed Metallica a changed band after RTL. I believe, as the this wikipedia entry claims, that Master of Puppets was the finest work released. It is suspected Cliff Burton impacted the musical quality of the band more than history has recorded. Saying they sold out is not a very good method of conveying your feelings about what happened post black album. The black album was good. Just not the flavor Metallica fans from pre-1991 knew or could relate to --like myself. They lost the spirit they adopted for that time, and moved on to adopt the band as a business rather than an extension of their personality. From a success perspective, they are geniuses. From an artistic perspective, they exchanged their spirit for stability. Much like how most of Americans have exchanged liberty for security, or the illusion thereof. Think about these things before responding.

I think “sell out” is a very appropriate term. Metallica’s appeal was that they didn't conform; that they didn't do what all the other bands were doing to sell albums. They didn't make videos and write songs for the radio. When I was 15-16 back in 1986-87 I loved this about them, because mainstream people hated Metallica. Then, they made the video to “One”, and it was, as Lars said, very unique and different. And that, for me, was the beginning of the end. Then every preppie was jumping on the Metallica bandwagon and wearing their shirts and coming to the shows and they didn't know squat about what the underground scene was all about. They were just a bunch of wannabe’s. Then the black album had five or six radio hits. By accident? Nope. On purpose. They used keyboards on “the Unforgiven” and then orchestra on ‘nothing else matters’. Then chicks started getting into the music as if they were a band that wrote love songs or something. Lets face it; money changes people. The worst thing that ever happened to them is that they got rich off of the business machine that metallica is. That impacted their lives in ways that changed the music. I remember being at one of their shows and James told the crowd the name of every song and the album it was off of. Why would you need to do this? Because James knew that there were people in the audience that would hate most of the songs, but may like one, and the band wanted those people to run out and buy the album even if it only had one song that they liked. So, metallica did sell out. They sold their music, their principals and their souls for the almighty dollar. maybe someone can find a way to slip this into the article. Keltik31 23:20, 22 November 2006 (UTC)


 * A band selling out is not a fact. It is an opinion. so what if they used keyboards on The Unforgiven? It's a great song anyway, like most of their catalog. There are people who like bands because others like them, and then there are the rest, the people that stop liking some bands because other people like them... You can say that part of the fan base was disappointed, or called them sell outs with appropriate references, but you can't "slip this into the article" as a fact.--Serte * Talk * Contribs 23:27, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Kirk says 'we started playing to our own tastes rather than to the concept of what we are'. It doesn't mean that they 'Sold Out' or 'Lost their spirit' it means that they felt like playing a style of music a lot of their original/long term fans didn't like to listen to. They've had the 'sold out' tag since Ride the ligtning/master of puppets. On 'Cliff 'em all' Cliff says they're accused of selling out because they don't play 1,000 miles per hour the whole time. It's just a different style. It should be referred to as a depature or progression.

Justice Song Length
The statement regarding the band not playing songs from ...And Justice For All due to their length is bullshit. They have played the title track several times, and every time they play One they stretch it out to over 10 minutes. The average length for an encore version of One, in fact, is around 12 minutes. Therefore, I'm getting rid of this statement. Dudewhiterussian 02:55, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the original statement said, but if you notice, after their huge world tour ended in the early 90's, they stopped playing all of those songs except for One, not just because of their length, but also because of their technicality... several of those songs have 20+ different riffs. They also shortened Master of Puppets to end after the second chorus, if you recall. They have begun to introduce some of them back into their live sets as part of their recent return to a heavier style, but for over a decade they were nowhere to be found. So, I think something about this should be included, and I'm adding, "Because of the complexity and length of the songs, in fact, the band would later (in the mid-90's) cease to play most of them live."4.252.73.164 07:06, 29 December 2005 (UTC)


 * "Because of the complexity and length of the songs, in fact, the band would later (in the mid-90's) cease to play most of them live." That implies that the band is somehow at odds with the songs' complexity. I am not sure that this is the best way to put it, though I agree that the band has made comments regarding the sudden changes on the "Justice" album. --Bora Nesic 04:51, 7 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm unable to find a source at the moment, but if I remember correctly, they were at odds with the complexity... they commented on how they got tired of playing those songs because some of them have around 30 riffs.4.225.94.10 19:06, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

They played both "Shortest Straw" and "Harvester Of Sorrow" on the St Anger tour

They also played "Blackened" and "Dyers Eve" on the "Madly In Anger With The World Tour"--666-glenn-666 21:10, 12 February 2007 (UTC)666-glenn-666

Burritobrother's edits
I will try to remove the POVness of most of Burritobrother's 00:04-00:07 Dec 26 edits. However, the part of the intro regarding St. Anger I am reverting to its old form. Burritobrother's version of this, in my opinion, is incorrect: St. Anger was lauded by many professional critics, and 3 million albums sold is not commercial failure. --Allen 05:45, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Kill 'Em All title
The title of the album does not reference mainstream artists or the mass media- it refers to the record distributors at the time who would not accept Metallica's proposed title, which was Metal Up Your Ass. I'm removing the incorrect information from the Trivia section, and adding some punctuation to the Name Usage section.4.131.50.24 21:48, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Fanzine
Much of the tone of this still reads like a fanzine writing by an adoring teenager. I think the whole article needs reqriting as it is very unencyclopedic.

I STRONGLY agree! I'm not reading the article from a fan's point of view, so as an objective party, it truly does read as detailed above, and therefore makes the reader question the validity of most of the content. I get this feeling especially from sections "The reasons Metallica took Sean Fanning and his creation Napster to court" - how can the author of this article know this for a fact, especially as no references are sited; and from the section "The biggest mistake Metallica made" - this of course is NOT an objective statement and gives the impression that the author(s) of the page feel that they are authoroized to speak on Metallica's behalf.

--Alex 00:47, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, it almost sounds like this article doesn't keep with the NPOV policy.

The cleaned up sections on napster look much better! It's now very much more a clear presentation of fact.--Alex 20:20, 22 March 2006 (UTC)