Talk:Mets–Phillies rivalry/Archive 1

Needs a LOT More Work
See Yankees-Mets Rivalry and Yankees-Red Sox Rivalry for an idea on how this should be written. I only see stuff mostly pertaining to the past few years. It should start from when the Mets started in MLB back in the early 60s. Arnabdas (talk) 16:45, 27 March 2008 (UTC)


 * To be honest, there hasn't been much prior to the last few years regarding the rivalry. Despite the proximity, usually one team was really good and the other team was really bad. And it was never even close to the Giants/Eagles or Rangers/Flyers rivalries. However, in recent years it has without a doubt become one of the fiercest rivalries in Major League Baseball. I live in Brooklyn and I root for the Phillies in the National League and in past years I could go to Shea without hearing a word. Now I hear stuff all the time when I attend a game there..and the same goes for Citizens Bank Park, where Mets fans usually invaded without any fight being put up. - 04:59, 15 April 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.161.206.86 (talk)


 * Yeah, there wasn't really a serious "rivalry" to speak of until '06 or '07. And besides, just because it needs work is no reason to put it down. Why not help instead? KV5 (talk) 23:10, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree-- this so-called rivalry is a very recent phenomenon but it's played up here as if it dates from Abner Doubleday. I grew up with the Phils and remember vividly when the Mets started. At Shea Stadium in Bunning's perfect game, for example, the NY fans were all cheering him on unabashedly. As far as real emotion, the Reds, Braves, Pirates and Cardinals have all had more historical drama. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.164.97.100 (talk) 21:47, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Did you happen to read how old of a discussion you were bumping? This article has changed a lot since this time. KV5  ( Talk  •  Phils ) 00:17, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:NLE-NYM-Logo.png
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Issues tag
I should have followed up on the tags I placed at the top earlier, but better late than never. Basically, I've placed the tags because the concerns raised above still aren't really addressed. There's quite a bit of not-NPOV, like "The rivalry is often quite intense", "Jimmy Rollins made a statement that may have set the rivalry in a dead heat", and "rivalry portended to be even hotter", and the timeline of the rivalry seems to be mostly WP:SYNTH. There's really no substantial support for the rivalry's notability - just a recounting of events that happened over the past few seasons. The "Causes" section is entirely original research, and "said to be among the best rivalries in the National League, along with the Cardinals–Cubs rivalry and the Dodgers–Giants rivalry." is a rather blatant weasel phrase.

It seems, unless there's a massive rewrite, the article is better off being merged with a more general article about NY-Philly rivalry in all sports. --Mosmof (talk) 23:15, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * There's a lot of information in here that has references, but they are currently elsewhere. I can probably take responsibility for some, if not a lot, of that, because I put info with references into the season articles but not this article. I will try to scavenge those references from other sources and bring them here so that we aren't having this problem. KV5  •  Squawk box  •  Fight on!  12:48, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I have presented a significant number of references to back up many of the claims made in this article, as well as removing some of what appeared to be original research. Would the tagger please re-review and then consider removing or address additional concerns? KV5  •  Squawk box  •  Fight on!  20:32, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

sourcing
I've noticed the tags on the article, and can't really argue too much with them. If I can, I'll do some writing to help out. In the meantime, here's a recently published article by USA Today here: that goes into some detail on the rivalry, including notable quotes. Umbralcorax (talk) 17:18, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Introduction of OR
I'm removing a section of original research from the "causes" section. It cites no reliable sources. KV5 ( Talk  •  Phils ) 19:59, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Update to Photo captions
I updated the Photo captions. Whomever wrote them was very biased. They were reworded neutrally so no bias is evident. --Akc2543 (talk) 06:52, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Much Improved
I've reviewed and made minor contributions to this article from time to time; this is the first time I've seen it in a few months and I'm very impressed now with the level of detail, especially regarding the rivalry in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Good work. 68.82.197.245 (talk) 14:59, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Dykstra/Samuel trade
The Samuel/Dykstra & McDowell trade occured on June 18, 1989, NOT July 18.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/samueju01.shtml?redir —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.22.180.130 (talk) 17:03, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The reference date was formatted incorrectly, my bad. That doesn't negate the use of civil language, however. . KV5  ( Talk  •  Phils ) 17:07, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Moments of Peace
There were moments of peace in the rivalry. These included the Mets hosting the 1964 Major League Baseball All-Star Game and a Phillie being named MVP of the game and the death of Richie Ashburn in 1997, as it happened while the Phillies were in New York to take on the Mets. There was a moment of silence before the first game following his death. Should those be added with references? I would think so, as rivalries have had moments of peace. -- SNIyer12, (talk), 01:53, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * If there are reliable references for those things, it wouldn't hurt. I don't know about the All-Star game info, as that's really tangential, but the Ashburn thing is poignant and definitely relevant if there are sources. &mdash; KV5  •  Talk  •  02:40, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * It would be best if each item was discussed here before inserting it rather than having to go back and delete, copyedit, etc. Like I mentioned, the All-Star game info is really a stretch, so I removed it, along with the cycles, which weren't moments of peace at all. Everything should be incorporated into the article's chronology, not given its own section unless it warrants several paragraphs. &mdash; KV5  •  Talk  •  16:55, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I would like to propose this about the death of Richie Ashburn in 1997: "During a series between the Phillies and Mets at Shea Stadium in 1997, there was a rare moment of peace in the rivalry as both teams remember former Phillies broadcaster and original Met Richie Ashburn, who died during the series." Sources: Ashburn Provided Hits, and Humor, September 10, 1997, by Buster Olney, The New York Times, page B12. Quote: "Shea Stadium's flag flew at half-staff, and there was a moment of silence before the game." Also BROGNA'S HOME RUN AND GREEN'S PITCHING GEM DEFEAT METS, September 10, 1997, by Jim Salisbury, The Philadelphia Inquirer, page D1. Quote: "A somber day that began with wake-up calls informing players of the sudden death of the beloved Ashburn, the Phillies icon who was in his 35th season as one of the club's broadcasters. Reminders of Ashburn were almost constant throughout the game. The Phillies wore black armbands embroidered with the No. 1. The flag flew at half-staff." -- SNIyer12, (talk), 17:03, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * It sounds fine if it's incorporated into the "1995-2000" section within the parts about the 1997 season. &mdash; KV5  •  Talk  •  17:07, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Turnpike Series
There's only one reason why I created this article and undid the redirect of Turnpike Series to this article. Confusion. Some people might think Turnpike Series as the rivalry between the Phillies and Pirates, as the Pennsylvania Turnpike connects both Philadelphia and Pittsburgh. I have also seen Turnpike Series as a battle between the New Jersey Devils and Philadelphia Flyers, as the New Jersey Turnpike connects both New York City area and Philadlephia. Some may also refer to it as the Flyers–Penguins rivalry, given the Pennsylvania Turnpike, like with Phillies-Pirates. SNIyer12, (talk), 17:18 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * You would need to provide reliable sources in a talk page discussion, preferably at Talk:Turnpike Series. Turnpike Series redirects here because it's the former name of this article; those others have never been named as such on Wikipedia. &mdash; KV5  •  Talk  •  17:19, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Here's a link on the Turnpike Series refering to the rivalry between the Phillies and Pirates. SNIyer12, (talk), 19:18 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * A messageboard or forum on Google hardly counts as reliable. &mdash; KV5  •  Talk  •  19:23, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Regional Proximity
In the regional proximity section, I think it should read like this:

"The rivalry can also be attributed to the proximity between the cities of New York City and Philadelphia, which are approximately two hours apart by car. The Mets' fanbase comes from the New York metropolitan area, which includes southern Connecticut, and northern and central New Jersey as well as parts of upstate New York. Conversely, the Phillies' fanbase generally draws from the Delaware Valley (the Philadelphia metropolitan area), which includes Southeastern Pennsylvania, central New Jersey south of Princeton, southern New Jersey, northern Delaware and extreme parts of northeast Maryland. In addition to numerous regular-season meetings between the Phillies and the two New York clubs (the Dodgers and Giants) before the arrival of the Mets, the rivalry between Philadelphia and New York was spurred by post-season meetings between the two cities in 1905 (Giants and the Philadelphia Athletics), 1911 (Athletics–Giants), 1913 (Athletics–Giants), and 1950 (Phillies–Yankees). The New York area – Philadelphia rivalry is evident in other sports (for example, the rivalries between the New York Giants and the Philadelphia Eagles in the National Football League, and the National Hockey League, the New York Rangers and the Philadelphia Flyers and New Jersey Devils and Philadelphia Flyers)."

I think it should be worded that way, because of the rivalry between the Devils and the Flyers, as the Devils are a New York area team. -- SNIyer12, (talk), 17:34, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


 * The Devils are specifically named as a New Jersey team, regardless of where their arena is located, so I don't think that it's necessarily appropriate to include them since this is about New York and Philly. Regardless, the grammar in your proposed rewording is wrong; a better option, if and only if it should be inserted (which I still don't believe that it should), would be "and between the New York Rangers and the Philadelphia Flyers, as well as the Flyers and the New Jersey Devils, in the National Hockey League). &mdash; KV5  •  Talk  •  17:44, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I've asked that no one add information that the New York - Philadelphia rivalry is evident in the one between the New York Knicks and the Philadelphia 76ers of the National Basketball Association at this time. I've added that info, but that's in another article about rivalries between New York and Philadelphia teams: the one between the Rangers and the Flyers. -- SNIyer12, (talk) 00:23, 22 October 2010 (UTC)


 * If there are references, there is no reason not to add this information. But a reliable source is necessary. &mdash; KV5  •  Talk  •  00:28, 22 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I have references for the New York - Philadelphia rivalry being evident between the Knicks and the 76ers, but I don't want to add the information here at this time. Anyone who wants information on that should refer to the article on the rivalry between the Rangers and the Flyers. -- SNIyer12, (talk), 13:47, 22 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Like I just said, if you have references, you should add it. There's no reason to give preferential treatment to a hockey article over a baseball article. It's not neutral. &mdash; KV5  •  Talk  •  14:04, 22 October 2010 (UTC)


 * As I said, I don't plan to put info about the New York - Philadelphia rivalry being evident between the Knicks and the 76ers in the NBA at this time. If I was, how would this sound: "The rivalry can also be attributed to the proximity between the cities of New York City and Philadelphia, which are approximately two hours apart by car. The Mets' fanbase comes from the New York metropolitan area, which includes southern Connecticut, and northern and central New Jersey as well as parts of upstate New York. Conversely, the Phillies' fanbase generally draws from the Delaware Valley (the Philadelphia metropolitan area), which includes Southeastern Pennsylvania, central New Jersey south of Princeton, southern New Jersey, northern Delaware and extreme parts of northeast Maryland. In addition to numerous regular-season meetings between the Phillies and the two New York clubs (the Dodgers and Giants) before the arrival of the Mets, the rivalry between Philadelphia and New York was spurred by post-season meetings between the two cities in 1905 (Giants and the Philadelphia Athletics), 1911 (Athletics–Giants), 1913 (Athletics–Giants), and 1950 (Phillies–Yankees). The New York area – Philadelphia rivalry is evident in other sports (New York Giants and the Philadelphia Eagles in the National Football League, the New York Knicks and the Philadelphia 76ers of the National Basketball Association, and the New York Rangers and the Philadelphia Flyers of the National Hockey League). " As I said, I'm not going to put the info or change it at this time. -- SNIyer12, (talk), 14:06 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Considering that reference says that they do not have a rivalry, it shouldn't be inserted at all. &mdash; KV5  •  Talk  •  14:28, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * All right. This ends the discussion. The final outcome: Let's not put the information about the New York - Philadelphia rivalry being seen between the Knicks and the 76ers, as it isn't that strong. I prefer to keep it the way it is at this time, that the rivalry is seen between the Giants and the Eagles and between the Rangers and the Flyers. When I put that info in the article about the rivalry between the Rangers and the Flyers, it was removed, as it isn't strong. In fact, it is also removed from that article. -- SNIyer12, (talk), 13:33, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

I've requested that no one add information about the New York - Philadelphia being evident between the Islanders and the Flyers. Although the Islanders are a New York team, they play outside New York City limits, in Long Island. -- SNIyer12, (talk), 15:04, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Players
What are your thoughts about having a section listing all the players who played for both the Mets and the Phillies. Most other articles about these sports rivalries, like Yankees–Mets rivalry and Yankees – Red Sox rivalry have such lists. -- SNIyer12 (talk), 21:28 25 August 2010, (UTC)
 * Such lists are generally trivial and should be avoided. Just because other stuff exists elsewhere doesn't mean it needs to be here. Such a list existed in this article and was trimmed during the process of preparing it for Good Article status because of WP:INDISCRIMINATE. &mdash; KV5  •  Talk  •  00:18, 26 August 2010 (UTC)