Talk:MewithoutYou

Comment
does any one know the graphic designer for the bands albums???? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.119.72.170 (talk) 00:50, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Jordan Butcher was It's All Crazy and Jason Powers did Brother, Sister Mikealmquist (talk) 19:57, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Old/Unsigned Posts
Changed 'singer Aaron Weiss' to 'vocalist Aaron Weiss' as in the same paragraph is the contradictory phrase '...dominated by Weiss, who, rather than singing, talks in dramatic, varied tones and pitches.' Stu57 01:23, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm a bit confused as to the proper name for this band -- usages found on the web include Me Without You, Mewithoutyou, MeWithoutYou, etc. This article should be under whatever the "official" name of the band is with redirects from the other alternatives.

redirects added at the following points:

Mewithoutyou MeWithoutYou Me without you Me Without You Me without You 24.26.130.93 20:54, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)

An explanation as to why the band name is this way would be a nice addition to the article. Jgm 21:02, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Add dates (year of formation, year of album) to give more context. ike9898 22:41, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)

i think the band capitalized the 'y' in 'you' to empisize the the meaning of the name and the idea of being with out you. also the lower case 'm' might be low self esteem or something to degrade them selfs or humble them selfs. also i think because of the band's religous beliefs that the 'you' they refer to is God. all this is threoy and i didn't want to put it on the page. thanks for the input.

— Yes, the reason for the name mewithoutYou is religious, 'me' being us and the You being God. I have read magazine interviews with the band where they have explained the name, and its links to how Aaron feels that living life without involving God in your decisions is futile. However, I haven't looked for such articles on the web and I'm at work just now. And it is mewithoutYou.

Also, I edited the page to add a little bit about Inshullah.

Growth
mewithoutYou has definately seen major growth between their two major releases ([A-->B] Life and Catch For Us the Foxes); not only in the guitar and lyrics, but in the band's sound and completeness.

Case and point: Songs on [A-->B] Life are heavier (ie. more chords and intense drumming) and sloppier (for lack of a better term) (main point being the semi-random drumming and lose rhythm in the end of "The Cure For Pain"); whereas songs on Catch For Us the Foxes generally have more melodies and harmonies.

mewithoutYou is the official band name. I was reading interviews of Aaron Weiss where he confirmed the origin of the band name. The lowercase "me" is considered what life is like without the uppercase "You." The "me" would be considered any person, and the "You" considered as God. Thus, the person (me) is small, meek, and nothing without God (You). I cannot find this interview, because I viewed it only a long time ago. I will try and search the web for it and confirm this when I've found the link.

--Pencap 00:44, 3 December 2006 (UTC) Mark Phillips

The Operation
Does anybody know anything about former mewithoutYou? if anyone has heard anything by The Operation, please share it!

New content, awful organization
So the article gained a lot of content about the formation of the band, but it's not well formatted. I'll try to clean it up this week. Also I'm removing "Some of the band's new, unreleased material is available for listening through the mewithoutYou myspace page" because I visited their myspace page, and found nothing unreleased, only songs from the new album.

Label
Post-hardcore/Indie? I don't think so. Although this is one of the genres chosen on their Purevolume, I still think it's an incorrect label. While they are on the same record label as many Post-Hardcore bands, these guys are not Post-Hardcore. Their description on Myspace is just "indie," which I think would suffice. Do you think shortening it to this would be more appropriate?
 * I think the label is fine. Perhaps it isn't the most accurate description, but their sound is rather varied. The post-hardcore genre definetely suits the first album, where indie is fitting for the two most recent. I vote for leaving the post-hardcore as is.63.3.7.130 05:36, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Talk page
This talk page needs a lot of help. There are multiple comments with no dates/signatures near the top. If it's fine with everyone, i will put them all under a new content title named "Old/Unsigned" posts. Radar123 01:19, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Live Photograph
The concert photograph by the "Members" section is seems unnessesary and distracting. For one thing, it is quite outdated and it is rare to see live photos of bands on wikipedia (especially smaller bands). I won't delete the photo since I'm not a jerk, but I would sincerely recommend the photographer take it down. Radar123 01:27, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Chripster?
Seriously. This phrase has no supporting evidence and the word essentially no meaning. Here is the phrase.
 * MewithoutYou has come to be known as one of the leading bands in the Chripster scene.

I'm going to delete it. Feel free to add a sentence that will make more sense to the beginning of the paragraph. Radar123 20:27, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Chris Kleinberg
Earlier today I added Chris back into the current lineup and removed him from the 'former members' list. Someone else has now re-edited him back out of the current lineup and back into the former members list.

If you look at mewithoutYou's myspace page, he is still listed as a member. Likewise for their Purevolume. Also, I just saw then play last Friday and Chris was there.

So all signs point to Chris still being in the band. Now, if the other editor has some sort of tie with the band, maybe he/she is a friend of the band and is privy to closer information, okay that's fine. But perhaps we should wait until that information is made official before we portray it as fact here? The more likely scenario is that some fellow heard a rumour and is now considering it fact. Either way we should go with the most current and most official information at hand. 74.101.236.85 03:39, 5 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I will leave it as is until the official announcment is made. =/ And if you were referring to the show at Cornerstone IL, that was his last one.


 * Someone else has added this too, again I think we should wait until an official announcement. 67.70.163.105 00:38, 20 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Is it safe to say this rumour is dead? They're currently on tour again and no announcement has been made. 67.70.163.105 18:40, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

There is no need for 'official announcements.' He is listed that he is in the band, but is not touring for personal reasons. Is there a reference for him not being in the band? Because according to the myspace page he is. i'm not going to change it, but it should be changed. I'll leave it up to someone who edits this page more often and holds more connection.

I can speak on behalf of the band. I'm their manager. Chris has not been a full-time member of the band since he stepped down in 2007 to study medecine. He has done some of subsequent Summer Tours since it was his only time off from school. He was more or less a touring member and did not take part of the writing or recording on "It's All Crazy...". Brandon Beaver, from Buried Beds, has since filled his spot as a touring member of the band. When Brandon is unavailable he is usually filled in by Kris Klein (formerly of Squad 5-0). Mikealmquist (talk) 20:05, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Band philosophy
I believe that there should be some content regarding the themes that run in mewithoutYou music. Aaron Weiss can be found speaking about unity in the church, living in suburban America, money and war quiet oftenly. We need to add a section about these themes. Political Stances? Philosophy? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Flofor15 (talk • contribs) 19:21, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

That would belong on a page concerning Aaron Weiss' personal beliefs more then that of a collective of five individuals, who all hold individual ideas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.229.136.93 (talk) 02:03, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

The mewithoutYou page is a mess, and IMO there are too many "dog-whistle" phrases (Judeo-Christian is one). Also, the phrase in the introduction, "Aaron Weiss writes lyrics about issues such as unity or division in the church..." is misguided. Which songs feature this issue? Do any of the members even belong to a church? The word "Church" has Christian connotations, and thus seems inappropriate in discussing a band that uses imagery of various religions, while seeming not to belong to any of them. Eriol11 (talk) 17:59, 26 June 2010 (UTC)eriol11

Photo
I think the photo on the page should be changed to one of the entire band, rather than just one of Aaron. I suggest one of the promo shots from their myspace page or something. Remember there are 4 other guys in the band; it's "mewithoutYou" not "Aaron Weiss and mewithoutYou". Bm5481 (talk) 13:54, 10 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Check out WP:NONFREE. Wikipedia strongly discourages using non-free images to illustrate an article, especially where a free image is possible to obtain.  Promo pictures are under the copyright of the original photographer, and as such are non-free.  If you, however, were able to take a picture of the whole band yourself and release it under GNU or similar, that would definitely be better than an image solely of Aaron Weiss. Jpers36 (talk) 13:58, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

drummer
I heard somewhere that their drummer was autistic, has anyone else heard this? Saksjn (talk) 17:43, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

That rumor probably stems from the rumor that Aaron himself is autistic, which has been shot down by Aaron Weiss himself in several interviews available online. (http://www.lambgoat.com/features/interviews/mewithoutyou.aspx)But who really knows. flofor15 (talk) 01:44, 22 August 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.252.44.115 (talk)

Hm... I've heard from several people about it. Maybe some more research is necessary. Saksjn (talk) 14:30, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Quantity of believers does not make a statement true. Incidentally, I came to this page cause I read the band name as Mew ithou tyou (Mewtwo) for some reason :( I do have Autism. We're not all raving loonies like Rainman.

Capitalization discussion
I have started a discussion on how the subject's name should be capitalized at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:53, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Fine, I'll concede to let the consensus decide. It's better than one normal editor and one anonymous editor warring on differing opinions of how the MoS is to be read. 166.137.143.18 (talk) 16:07, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I resent being called normal. I am far from normal. I'm probably as abnormal as you are. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:14, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I didn't mean as a person, I meant in terms of user level. Sorry for the confusion. 166.137.143.18 (talk) 16:42, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Confusion was intentionally injected using the fallacy of equivocation. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:50, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * As I said, sorry for the confusion, I thought my usage was obvious when I wrote it. I wasn't intending it to be as you believe it was. 166.137.141.155 (talk) 17:39, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

That would mean that this edit is not in keeping with Wikipedia standards. Feel free to continue the discussion, but unless you can show why this band should be an exception to the rules of grammar (start of sentence is always capitalized) we'll have to leave it as it is. Not even E. E. Cummings gets away with breaking the rules of capitalization on Wikipedia. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:35, 15 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I am speaking on behalf of the band as their manager. One could make the argument with E.E. Cummings if Cummings himself had only exclusively used the lowercase, non-punctuated version of his name. mewithoutYou has never, on any self-published material, written their name starting with a capital. They are even official licensed as Limited Liabilities Corporation as one word with a lowercase m, capital Y. If the US Govt can handle our grammatical rule-breaking, so can the standards of Wikipedia. Mikealmquist (talk) 22:02, 15 November 2011 (UTC)


 * That doesn't fly. They probably also have Adidas, which stylizes their name as lowercase on occasion in lower case, among others. This is a literary work and the rules of grammar come into play here. Should I check every review and reference for the band to see that every one of them follows the starting lower case? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:06, 15 November 2011 (UTC)


 * "MewithoutYou, though, has somehow managed to strike a fine combination...]". Rules of grammar win. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:10, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
 * At http://www.allmusic.com/album/r594122/review, http://www.allmusic.com/album/r711181/review and http://www.allmusic.com/album/r1556520 the prose all follow the stylized capitalization while the track listings don't. May be a style sheet issue.
 * At http://www.musicemissions.com/artists/albums/index.php?album_id=6705 the prose again use the stylized version and like many of the sites include the band name only mid-sentence, not at the start. However on the right-hand feature, the band name is capitalized when it starts a bullet point.
 * The editor at http://www.rocksound.tv/reviews/article/mewithoutyou-its-all-crazy-its-all-false-its-all-a-dream-its-alright couldn't even be bothered to change the capitalization to lower case mid-sentence.
 * However all the examples for and against don't change the basic rules of grammar, which must be used in this encyclopedia. Words at the start of a sentence are capitalized. I suppose it's acceptable to leave a proper noun as lower case mid-sentence. The rules are laid-out at MOS:CAPS. If an exception can be found there, I will let the issue go. I cannot speak for other editors though. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:20, 15 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, all the source material you have cited is using an incorrect stylization of our trademarked name. One that, if we could have control over, would be corrected. However this wikipedia page can be controlled. We have a trademarked stylization of our name and intend to use it and control in any public situation we desire. Example of exceptions to your grammatical rule: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/k.d._lang http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPod Mikealmquist (talk) 22:39, 15 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I take it you didn't see the last paragraph. The rules are laid-out at MOS:CAPS. Please see if you can find an exception there. The pages you reference display an even deeper issue: the articles themselves start with a lower case letter. Again MOS:CAPS has the rules and Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters is where you're likely to make your point. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:20, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

My view on this matter is that our MOS is a guideline, not a policy, and its advice can be and has been bended or outright ignored in the past. We have MOS exceptions for terms like iPod, eMarketing, k.d.lang and so on, which illustrates rather clearly that the problem with the MOS is that the base rule is wrong, since it needs so many exceptions.

A better base rule, which is consistent with Wikipedia's actual policies, is verifiability. If the majority of sources use a particular capitalisation, even if it's non-standard, that's what Wikipedia should use. Changing capitalisation often alters the meaning of a word, and in doing so it breaches our tenets of precision and verifiability.

Imagine if we altered the title of the movie Inglourious Basterds to correct the spelling mistakes. The title was intentionally misspelled and that misspelling conveys additional meaning. Capitalisation is another way to alter the meaning of a word, and what is conveyed by 'Me Without You' or 'MewithoutYou' may be subtly but importantly different from the intended 'mewithoutYou'. It's my opinion that in cases like this, we should fall back on the capitalisation that appears in the majority of sources. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 23:26, 21 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The majority of sources, as pointed-out above, do not use the term at the start of sentences. Those that do come down slightly in favour of capitalizing the word. Only one source starts a sentence with a lower case letter. We should endeavour to keep the word away from the start of sentences and when it must, or when it stands alone, we should use a cap. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:26, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Recasting sentences to avoid putting the band name at the beginning seems like a good solution to that particular problem. And I'll note that usage in the majority of reliable sources doesn't necessarily imply compliance with the official spelling. Koяn is most commonly rendered as Korn, Macy*s is most commonly rendered as Macy's, etc. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 01:02, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Reference quality
Some of the references are of dubious quality for an encyclopaedia. MySpace in particular is usually frowned upon, and other Wikimedia projects (in this case Wikiquote) are not considered reliable sources. There are also a few book citations that reference Google Books rather than the book itself that may need to be tweaked. I've replaced one bad ref to a Tumblr repost with the actual article being referenced.

A good thing to keep in mind when sourcing Wikipedia articles is that if something is noteworthy enough to be included in an article, someone else (other than the band itself) has probably made note of it and we'd use that secondary source. The interviews seem fine (at cursory glance) but the MySpace link really should be replaced if at all possible with a secondary source. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 23:08, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

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