Talk:Michael Jon Hand

Going through the sources for the article
I've added Kwitny, an important source on Hand's background and activities. Kwitny conflicts in several places with McCoy's 1991 account, and it looks mostly like Kwitny had it right and McCoy got these details wrong (such as the date Hand allegedly worked for the CIA). If there are any comments or corrections to these changes, please put up a note here.

I've also removed a long quote from John Jiggens's dissertation, which was not integrated into the text, and related to what was really one of the bank's activities. I'll go back when I have time and make sure relevant information is in the Nugan Hand article, but I don't see the point in duplicating bank activities here. Duplication of personal details of Hand's life is unavoidable, unfortunately, and I've added material from the bank story that relates the claims of Hand never being seen again (not true). Rgr09 (talk) 05:30, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

Can you comment about "Hand allegedly working for the CIA"? I don't think there is any truth to that allegation. -Location (talk) 19:12, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The Propublica article you cited says "One [Australian] investigation found links between Hand and the CIA, while another did not." This is poorly put; the investigations were into Nugan Hand Bank, not just Hand. There were three investigations; the final one, the Royal Commission of Inquiry conducted by Donald Stewart, found the Nugan Hand Bank was not linked to the CIA.
 * This is obviously different from saying that Michael Hand was never employed by the CIA. Kwitny's book describes what he found about Hand and the CIA; it is phrased very carefully, no doubt for strong legal reasons. The article incorporates the statements Kwitny made. Hand is still alive, so the article is subject to Wikipedia's BLP guidelines. I think any stronger statement would be a BLP problem. Rgr09 (talk) 23:24, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Looking through this article again, I see a lot of problematic passages. I put this article aside because I didn't have access to the reports of the Australian investigations. If there is doubt, maybe some of this other stuff should go as well. Rgr09 (talk) 23:36, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The Propublica article also states, "The CIA has previously denied that it had any links to Hand." That leads me to think there has been some public statement on the part of the CIA, but I have not been able to find it. To me, there is a difference between "working for" (which implies regular employment or a contract) and "working with" (which could mean various others things); however, the CIA's denial suggests that they claim he had nothing to do with them. Of course that is different than Hand knowing people who working with the CIA or having some sort of working relationship with ex-CIA officers/officials. I haven't read Kwitny, so I don't know what contradicts this. - Location (talk) 15:17, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

For future reference: -Location (talk) 15:52, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * https://www.recoilweb.com/tops-knives-mike-fuller-retires-75161.html - an article shortly after he was located stating that "Fuller" resigned from his knife factory and a letter from him stating that he was stepping down.
 * https://www.idahostatejournal.com/members/local-company-says-man-linked-to-decades-old-bank-collapse-in-australia-did-nothing-wrong/article_49c0eb89-d689-5aa6-916c-3837b82c5825.html - news report regarding statement of Fuller
 * https://localnews8.com/news/2015/11/10/australian-fugitive-michael-jon-fuller-statement/ - news report regarding statement of Fuller
 * https://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/la/papers/Pages/qanda-tracking-details.aspx?pk=228648 and https://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/la/papers/Documents/2016/16-february-2016-questions-and-answers/048-QandA-P.pdf - Australian legal

Australian 60 Minutes
An episode on 60 Minutes (Australia) located Hand, now named Michael Jon Fuller living in Idaho Falls58.173.94.15 (talk) 10:20, 8 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Here is the episode on YouTube... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDhsDU_Z2m8. - Location (talk) 15:32, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Peter Butt
This article should cite Butt directly rather than news reports of his book.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:49, 1 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Given our similar discussion in Talk:Nugan Hand Bank, I guess we might be at loggerheads on this; however, I think we should only cite Butt to the extent that his views have been cited in mainstream sources per WP:REDFLAG. - Location (talk) 15:20, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Regardless, the way this is dealt with in the article is out of date and wrong. There is no reason to use a media report of what Butt said rather than cite Butt directly.--Jack Upland (talk) 02:49, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I think I may have misunderstood what you were saying. Does my recent edit look more like what you had in mind? - Location (talk) 05:04, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Better, but why mention Butt as further reading? It seems to be a non-sequitur.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:41, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Michael Jon Hand (aka Michael Jon Fuller) deceased 2020
Michael Jon Hand (aka Michael Jon Fuller) was deceased in 2020; factual and may be easily verified. Hand Aka Fuller was (in part) protected by the CIA for his criminal allegiance with that criminal agency. I'd add that to the page but no doubt some Deep State actor for the Axis of Evil here will remove it. :) Montoya44 (talk) 03:52, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Montoya44, if it's easily verified, just provide the reference. Drmies (talk) 22:05, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
 * https://knifenews.com/tops-knives-founder-passes-away/ 97.120.95.64 (talk) 07:29, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
 * yes hand is not "is", but "was"... 61.19.252.209 (talk) 19:35, 16 October 2023 (UTC)