Talk:Michael Klaper/Archive 1

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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20101123090555/http://healthpromoting.com/doctors to http://www.healthpromoting.com/doctors

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Notability?
Reading this over, not seeing why he is notable. He is an author and a doctor and what else? So are lots of people. Almost all the citations are from Klaper. Unless someone has something I'm not seeing then this page probably does not belong on Wikipedia. What ya got? Sgerbic (talk) 05:34, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Spending more time looking over these citations... Lets see what we have here.


 * Citation 1 Doximity.com gives us a 404 https://www.doximity.com/pub/michael-klaper-md
 * Corrected to https://www.doximity.com/profiles/7446dff6-bc58-4397-8f80-2a88dcfec625 - which now works correctly - same info about Michael Klaper MaynardClark (talk) 00:43, 20 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Citation 2 Nutritional education.com https://www.nutritionaleducation.com/institute/team/michael-klaper-md 404
 * Now Citation 4 - The Wayback Machine has no archived version of the URL or any portion of it. The URL now forwards to NEI Nutritarian Institute at https://www.drfuhrman.com/library/nutritarian-education-institute, which SOUNDS similar, but it is run by Dr. Joel Fuhrman (a KLlaper colleague), so I decided to search for a better link to document the claim (or to think about it more before removing the link).


 * Wait, the Wayback Machine delivered an archived version: https://web.archive.org/web/20160313082902/http://www.nutritionaleducation.com/institute/team/michael-klaper-md I replaced it in the text of the article. MaynardClark (talk) 01:09, 20 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Citation 3 In search of simplicity https://insearchofsimplicity.com/2009/04/29/dr-michael-klaper-a-vegan-physician-on-voices-from-the-north/ This is an advert for his book.
 * Actually, it's a blog entry from John Haines, following a John Haines podcast in which Haines discusses Michael Klaper and incorrectly claims Klaper was the author of The Cookbook for the People Who Love Animals (a once very popular 'early' and inexpensive vegan cookbook, for which Dr. Michael Klaper had written the Foreword (not the entire bood). He has written forewords to other cookbooks and to other books.  The once low cost (affordable) spiral bound cookbook is now 'out of print' and now sells as a collector's item for >$10,000 each through Amazon.com.  The cookbook developers later moved from Umatilla FL to Hawaii and changed their image somewhat. MaynardClark (talk) 01:09, 20 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Citation 4 https://doctorklaper.com/about/ this is his own website
 * Now Citation 20 - Yes, and it mentions (verifiably) that his DVDs are now available for free on the Internet, as on-demand streaming video. Leave it in, since it's the truth, and its statements are verifiable. MaynardClark (talk) 01:16, 20 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Citation 5 http://articles.latimes.com/1991-09-16/entertainment/ca-1811_1_beef-council LA Times - He isn't mentioned in the article anywhere
 * Now Citation 21 - Correct. His friend, John Robbins (with whom he cofounded EarthSave International (ESI), is mentioned several times (near the end of the article).  Klaper became vegan in 1971; Robbins became vegan much later, I think.  I think 'remove that reference' from this article.


 * Citation 6 is the same as citation 4 - his own website
 * Citation 7 http://www.vegsource.com/news/2009/12/famed-vegan-md-michael-klaper-moves-practice-to-california.html this is VegSource.com (whatever that is) and talks about Klaper moving his office. That's it.
 * Now Citation 23 - VegSource is a well-known (among vegetarians) veg portal hosted from California. VegSource hosts or hosted a number of other groups' web presence. The VegSource article mentions Dr. Klaper's joining True North, which is the statement that is being documented. MaynardClark (talk) 03:01, 20 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Citation 8 https://web.archive.org/web/20101123090555/http://www.healthpromoting.com/doctors This is an about page for him, a bio he probably wrote about himself
 * Now Citation 24 - Well, in any case, he's no longer a staff physician at True North, according to the True North Health website. The article should be rewritten for timely accuracy. MaynardClark (talk) 03:16, 20 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Citation 9 http://www.healthpromoting.com/clinic-services/your-stay This is a website for his workplace
 * Now Citation 27 - Does it document his involvement there?


 * Citation 10 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52a3qrZKic4 A YouTube video that has been deleted
 * Now Citation 37 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCIhUebuy4w should now work for the hour-long video on YouTube. MaynardClark (talk) 05:00, 20 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Citation 11 http://www.documentarywire.com/a-diet-for-all-reasons/ 404 error
 * Now Citation 38 - We only need one working link to A Diet for All Reasons, so this could be removed if we don't get a Wayback Machine URL for it. Should we wait for TWB to produce a link for us? MaynardClark (talk) 05:08, 20 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Citation 12 https://doctorklaper.com/videos/ His own website to his books
 * Now Citation 39 - The URL works and does provide access to his free online videos, does it not? MaynardClark (talk) 05:08, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

So why does this person have a Wikipedia page? This is the version I'm referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Michael_Klaper&oldid=847467714 Sgerbic (talk) 06:24, 12 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Dr. Michael Klaper contributed considerably to the formation of the American vegetarian and vegan movement during the 1980s and 1990s - before the Internet era. This would not be evident to nonvegetarians and to those vegetarians who did not participate in the organized vegetarian mvoement.  Look at the content in each of those online sources.  Dr. Klaper was scientific director for EarthSave, International (ESI).  He was one of the the key speakers at various vegetarian conferences around the North America and Europe for several decades.


 * Give us time to rebuild this article which at present is admittedly unbalanced and poorly written, but only because it was insufficiently researched and inadequately developed.


 * There's nothing wrong with including one's own website, but that should not be the primary sourcing of factual, historical statements made in the encyclopedic article. MaynardClark (talk) 22:49, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
 * 'Physicians who doctored their diet.' Vegetarian Times, December 1990, page 54, accessed July 20, 2018


 * Citation 1: Fixed dead link by citing an archived copy of the webpage. Mksword (talk) 03:08, 21 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Citation 2: Somebody else already fixed this one. Mksword (talk) 03:08, 21 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Citation 3: It's a citation to John Haines's website. Haines does speak glowingly of Klaper's work, but it's clearly not an advertisement. And the main item on the webpage is the audio recording of a one-hour interview that Haines did with Klaper. Mksword (talk) 03:08, 21 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Citation 4: Yes it is Klaper's website. This is not a problem. Mksword (talk) 03:08, 21 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Citation 5: This citation is about the 1991 PBS documentary Diet for a New America. Cited webpage doesn't mention Klaper, but the point of the citation is to provide info about the documentary, not to say anything about Klaper. Mksword (talk) 03:08, 21 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Citation 6: Again, it's not a problem for the article to cite Klaper's website. Mksword (talk) 03:08, 21 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Citation 7: Sgerbic says that the cited webpage talks only about Klaper moving his office. That's not true. And, as to what VegSource.com is, that's explained at the top of the cited webpage:  "Your source for all things vegetarian!" Mksword (talk) 03:08, 21 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Citation 8: This is an archived page of TrueNorth clinic's website, that lists the descriptions of the eight doctors who worked there at that time.  This is very standard for a medical clinic. Mksword (talk) 03:08, 21 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Citation 9: Yes, this is page of TrueNorth clinic's website.  This is not a problem. Mksword (talk) 03:08, 21 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Citation 10: Somebody else already fixed this one. Mksword (talk) 03:08, 21 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Citation 11: Fixed dead link by citing an archived copy of the webpage. Mksword (talk) 03:08, 21 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Citation 12: This footnote is attached to the text "Numerous educational videos, some free online", and indeed the cited webpage lists links to 13 videos that you can view online for free. Mksword (talk) 03:08, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

I've removed "A choice with definite Risks" from NYT reporter Nina Planck - https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/04/17/is-veganism-good-for-everyone/a-choice-with-definite-risks This article was used in the lede to support that Klaper is a "leading advocates of vegatism" but Planck's article does not mention Klaper at all. I can't see any reason to use this citation. In fact the "opinion piece" by Planck states the opposite of Klaper's statements that children should NOT be raised as vegetarians, let them decide when they are adults. Sgerbic (talk) 17:34, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm continuing to look for the source of "leading advocate of veganism" And I find the quote in the book "Vegetarian America: A History" on pages 216 and 238. The authors are not notable nor is the book. It was published in 2004 (so the non-notable authors felt that Klaper was a leading advocate back in 2004, is he still? and by whose standards?) There are only five reviews for this book on Amazon, and it is 14 years old. I'm going to look further to see if the other citations used to support the claim that Klaper is a "leading advocate of veganism" or not. If I don't find this evidence then I will either remove this claim, or move it into the body of the article and state that according to the authors of the 2004 book ... Klaper is one of the "leading advocate(s) of veganism".
 * Okay the claim that Klaper is a "leading advocate of vegatism" is coming from the Daily Record which I can't read without subscribing to it. The article is from 1998 (a lot has changed since 1998) and the Daily Record from Scotland is described as a "tabloid newspaper" hardly with journalist integrity. Daily Record (Scotland). The other is from a 2000 article, Vegetarian Journal but it is not a notable journal, nor is the author notable, and the article available to read as a subscription only, so can't see what it says. The last citation to show that Klaper is notable is from a print World Heritage Encyclopedia called "Vegan Nutrition" while I love encyclopedias myself, and own many print ones, it is hardly enough to use as the source of a claim like Klaper is the "leading advocate of veganism". To sum up, we have an encyclopedia, a tabloid newspaper from Scotland, a non-notable article in a Vegan journal (also not notable) all of these are not available to review without finding the print encyclopedia or subscribing to the articles. We have the "best" citation from a non-notable book from 2004 with non-notable authors. Oh and Klaper's own website. I'm not buying any of this. Removing all citations to this claim. Sgerbic (talk) 18:01, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * The award checks out. The NASA claim is not verified by the links given. This one is broken http://ganhealthandfitnessmag.com/2017/06/michael-klaper-m-d-alese-jones-ryt/ and the other is to a book that we can't read. It looks like it is just about the NASA program and no way of knowing if it even mentions Klaper. The third and last citation to the NASA claim is to a primary source (his own website) So we need something else to back up the claim that he worked with NASA.Sgerbic (talk) 05:52, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
 * There are five citations in the lede (we don't need citations in the lede) that are not used elsewhere in the entire article. They support the first sentence of the lede that Klaper is a doctor, from the US, and speaks at conferences and lectures. I don't think anyone is going to argue that any of that is untrue. Other articles used in the body all support those claims, so I'm going to remove them. This Wikipedia article feels like it is ref-bombed.Sgerbic (talk) 06:09, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm slowly going though these citations and just removed 4 more and I'm still working on the lede. Three links were to the same book but in different editions and even one in German. We don't need to include every mention of Klaper that has ever been mentioned.Sgerbic (talk) 06:17, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Family and seeming traveler's discrepancy?

 * His parents were David T. Klaper, DDD (a dentists practicing in the South Shore of Chicago, and Jean T. Klaper (a patron of the arts?).
 * His brother, Robert D. Klaper, who taught biology in Wheaton, Illinois]], has already passed away.
 * Did Michael Klaper marry in 1985, to Cynthia Lee Pararo (from Georgia? born 1953) while they were in Florida?
 * Did Michael Klaper later marry Alese Jones, RYT, whom he met in 1988 while she was working for EarthSave? Where is she now?  She seems to accompany him on celebrity cruises and health retreat weekends, as recently as 2015.
 * How did Michael Klaper grow up on a Wisconsin dairy farm (according to his own narratives, both spoken during lectures and and printed in his own writings and recorded in print by others)? What passages are transitions occurred between his own homelife in Chicago and Wisconsin?  Did the family own or have a significant life interest in a dairy farm in neighboring Wisconsin?  How did Michael resist becoming a 'Cheesehead'?
 * Michael Klaper cared for his elderly mother (Jean T. Klaper) until her passing, presumably in Hawaii. Did the family move to Florida at some point (both parents are listed in 'searches' as living in Boca Raton, Florida (perhaps in retirement). MaynardClark (talk) 17:32, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

why are you writing this on the talk page? Why do you refer to Klaper as "Michael"? 8&#61;&#61;8 Boneso (talk) 00:11, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Good points. I fixed that.  I was thinking that we were discussing the various Klapers - David, Robert, Jean, Michael.  But I see that it's not suitable for such an article, although this is a 'talk page'! Thanks for calling it to my attention. MaynardClark (talk) 00:22, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Better Infobox needed
Since we have more information (wife, wives?) than can fit into this infobox, can we get a better, more suitable infobox? MaynardClark (talk) 17:36, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
 * It's possible to nest other "person" infoboxes as additional modules; the instructions are at . I would leave as the primary infobox; and add in the elements of  or  that you wish to add. With that said, people listed in an infobox as associated with an article's should also be independently notable and/or relevant to the article. None of those listed here seem to be. Little pob (talk) 14:24, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

Category:Wikipedia requested photographs in the United States Category:Wikipedia requested photographs in Florida


 * Why is "4 vegan cousins" included in the info box? How is that relevant? Sgerbic (talk) 17:04, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Perhaps as evidence that his life and witness are persuasive? Curious point.  MaynardClark (talk) 00:07, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Photo
This 2000 photo was found at Flickr, from Beth Price Photography, likely taken at the TEDxTraverseCity 2018, Awake and Aware, in Traverse City, Michigan, in 2000. MaynardClark (talk) 23:29, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Has this photo been released to CC? Sgerbic (talk) 00:36, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I in-mailed (through Flickr) the person who snapped and uploaded that photo; she agreed to release the photo to Creative Commons licensing, but she is trying to regain access to her long neglected Flickr account in order to do that formally. MaynardClark (talk) 02:30, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Does it also meet WP:Manual of Style/Images? — Lentower (talk) 01:27, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
 * & WP:IUP? — Lentower (talk) 12:51, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
 * This other, far newer photo, which I snapped of Dr. Klaper on July 6, 2018, has been trimmed with the Windows Snipping Tool and uploaded to Wikimedia Commons. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Michael_Anthony_Klaper,_MD,_07-06-2018_-_Johnstown_PA.png MaynardClark (talk) 03:03, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

Gorski and Jillette
Looks like David Gorski has weighed in. I'm not sure I have time to add this citation into the article, there is quite a lot and because Gorski is writing about Klaper, I guess that means that we no longer have to worry about Klaper's notability. So terrific timing. https://respectfulinsolence.com/2018/07/25/penn-jillette-interviews-michael-klaper/ If someone gets to this before me, we should probably also use this citation on Jillette's page also. Sgerbic (talk) 00:40, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Its possible that this article will be AfD-ed again sometime in the future. Finding quality citations that support Notability would also help improve the article. — Lentower (talk) 01:25, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Len there has been an extensive search for existing articles and they are in the current article. IMO there are way too many citations that are used, Bones commented that they are ref-bombing and I think Bones was probably correct. Some more cleanup is in order. Gorski's article and now the attention by Jillette will probably be enough to keep this from another AFD in the future. Sgerbic (talk) 15:33, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Well, those references are showing up frequently, as in this article with Pamela Anderson as the lead, and other vegan celebrities (such as Kim Williams, Sharon Palmer, Michael Klaper, and others appearing at the Los Angeles unified school board. MaynardClark (talk) 02:23, 31 July 2018 (UTC)


 * 1) I have seen no effort of reference hunting from pre-Internet sources, of getting the video cited & checked, etc. See my list on the AfD. — Lentower (talk) 18:27, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
 * 2) I don't mind a lot of references on an article, it gives our readers more data. Any not in an article's text, can be added after  inside a  /pair. — Lentower (talk) 18:27, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
 * 3) I have a preference for there only be 2 or 3 used for any given text in an article. That is, a string of s should not be longer than three.  (I have never chased down what the guidelines suggest here.) — Lentower (talk) 18:27, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
 * 4) It's wise to always add, if you want a reply from an editor.  Thanks — Lentower (talk) 18:27, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
 * That MUCH Gorski may be a violation of WP:POV. The Klaper article is nearly all descriptive, but the Gorski quotes are filled with invectives and 'loaded language'. MaynardClark (talk) 02:24, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * First off Maynard, Gorski is a notable medical expert so his pov is very relevant, especially because Gorski is talking directly about Klaper. Secondly, you have just added in a TIME magazine article talking about why fasting might be helpful. You added that in the middle of the Gorski part. If you are going to break up a section like that, then you have to have the Gorski citation then the TIME citation and then again use the same Gorski citation, otherwise it looks like the TIME citation is talking about Gorski. It just does not make sense to add a citation into the middle of a paragraph unless you cite it correctly. Thirdly, why are you adding a TIME article in a section devoted to what Gorski thinks about Klaper? It is NOT your responsibility, or Wikipedia's responsibility to argue about what one notable expert is saying. It appears that you are trying to debate Gorski's opinion in the middle of Gorski's opinion. The whole paragraph is about what Gorski thinks, not about whether or not fasting is good or bad for you. This is Gorski's expertise and not yours. Lets talk about this "loaded language" you refer to. These are direct quotes from Gorski, there were a ton more, if you think you would like to use different quotes then maybe we should discuss that here. But I felt that the words I used really sum up the article that Gorski wrote. If is none of yours or my business how critical the comments are from Gorski, it is what he said. We don't sugarcoat the quotes from a notable expert, they are what they are.Sgerbic (talk) 06:04, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Sgerbic & Maynard, I'm reopening this discussion point on Gorski violation of WP:POV. I deleted these sections and Sgerbic reverted it. Gorski is fully loaded here in his own self-run, personal blog to take down and discredit Dr. Klaper. This is not a credible resource (even if Gorski is a surgeon) and full of his own conjecture. It doesn't pass the verifiability test and is clearly not neutral at all. It is an attack designed to publically harm another medical professional. Fair enough if he posts on his own blog but Wikipedia is not the place.Lentower MaynardClark Sgerbic Talktopeter (talk) 17:10, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Talktopeter - Just wondering why you are so invested in this page and this specific point? Under this user name you have never edited anything but the Klaper page. You are acting very sure of yourself and aggressive. Sgerbic (talk) 21:21, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Sgerbic, thanks for the quick response and dialogue. I am new to editing on Wikipedia, appreciate your patience, and look forward to more contributions. I am familiar with Dr. Klaper's 5 decades of work as well as with T. Colin Campbell, Caldwell Esselstyn, Michael Greger, and others in his peer group. I felt I had a perspective to help contribute and that is why I am here. All of these doctors, including Dr. Klaper, have contributed many decades worth of work in their field. I feel that it is unreasonable to discredit Dr. Klaper in a public forum because of a single blog post from a position that is clearly not neutral from Dr. Gorski. What we have here is Dr. Gorski interpreting the Penn Jillette’s podcast about his experience of Dr. Klaper. This is too far removed and not a reliable source. Talktopeter (talk) 01:41, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
 * We have all been new here once. And the first thing we learn is that opinions of editors are not relevant to articles. We use secondary sources that are from notable people who are writing on their expertise. It does not matter if we think Klaper is the bees knees, you do not get to state your opinion. We also rarely refer to people with the prefix of Dr. as that is a attempt to sway the discussion and argument from authority. Gorski is a "peer" of Klaper, he is also an outspoken critic, he is notable for his writing and expertise, he is not writing on a "blog" as SBM is commonly used here on Wikipedia as a source. If Gorski chooses to write about Klaper, that is Gorski's business. We can use Gorski as a citation as long as we note it is from Gorski and not the editor's personal opinion. If you have issue with notable public people having criticism, then I suggest you stick to reading personal websites. Wikipedia is not Klaper's website where it only speaks positively about his work, we don't gloss over notable criticism here. Wikipedia is NOT a forum. That's nice that you have a "perspective" but that isn't what Wikipedia is here for. That's nice that Klaper has been doing this work for decades, and? Apparently Gorski does not think much of that. Arguments from antiquity don't have much sway here. So to sum up, I'm not sure why you think that in order for Gorski to be used, he needs to write in a "neutral" way, that doesn't make much sense. I suggest (and it is only my suggestion) that if you wish to edit here on Wikipedia (and we need lots of editors) you first learn how to edit correctly. I'm not talking about coding and citation styles. Work on pages you do not have a clear bias for, flowers, bunnies, types of popcorn and pages that also need help. Build up a strong edit history, show your work. Show editors that you are here to improve Wikipedia as a whole and not just one page. At the moment you look like a single purpose editor that is acting aggressively towards your editor peers. If you really want to help out Klaper, learn the rules and when to ask questions before deleting things. Maybe try and get a photo of Klaper uploaded to WMC that can be added to the Wikipedia page? That would be very helpful. Sgerbic (talk) 11:09, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Sgerbic, thanks for the dialogue and sharing your experience. I'm invested in having an open and collaborative discussion with you and the other editors on this page. Note that the anonymous edit from 65.151.19.248 was not me. I received an alert as I am following this page. Talktopeter (talk) 22:14, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

my reference to refbombing on the AfD related to the large number of references placed in the article that did not, or briefly mentioned Klaper. Most references were promotional or mentioned briefly that he was speaking somewhere; they had the appearance of making Klaper appear notable to anyone who only took a passing look at the page. Once I have finished researching Klaper as best I can I will work through the references and remove the "BOMBS". I am currently searching newspapers.com to locate more references and I'm mostly finding adds for upcoming speaking engagements or articles promoting them, very much like the NZ Herald article. There is very little "about" Klaper in those references which add nothing new to the page but repetition and give the subject the appearance of WP:1E (before you jump on me I know that is not relevant in this case, but its the closest I can get to explain my point). I did find an article relating to the death of River Phoenix which I have added. I think the David Gorski reference and promotion by Penn Jillette along with a couple of old newspaper articles will make Klaper notable and immune from another AfD. The addition of the Gorski Article by needs work, and perhaps  could take on the suggestion that a library visit is in order...8&#61;&#61;8 Boneso  (talk) 07:45, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree with removing the references that do not mention Klaper, unless they support the text in another way. Also with removing many of the references that only mention Klaper speaking.  But someone who regularly speaks on a topic in many places, at a time when few others are, that helps cause a major shift in eating increases a person's notablity to me.  If the point you are trying to make by analogy to WP:1E is that such references don't help notability, I disagree.  A selected sample that showed the geographic, socio-economic, etc. coverage of his talks should support that point. I too hope other editors work on this article, including the research library visit, getting a cite for the video mentioned (hopefully with timestamp), etc. that I suggested in the AfD.  (Btw, I don't jump on people, but do appreciate you explaining your use of WP:1E.) — Lentower (talk) 13:42, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm happy to make some library visits before the end of this summer (but NOT this week) in order to better research the Klaper article. However, I would hope that others would want to work constructively on this Klaper article (and not based judgments entirely on what is at hand presently).  To fault one person's contributions because they are yet unfinished or not otherwise optimized seems not quite optimal itself, as a judgment style. MaynardClark (talk) 19:26, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
 * you come across as an editor who is not acquainted with either WP's culture or theWikipedia_policies_and_guidelines. First, its good you'll check out the paper literature.  Second, its unlikely anyone else will come out of the woodwork to help improve this article -- WP just doesn't work that way.  Third, I see no judging going on about any editor's contribution, including yours, so no need to talk about judgement styles.  You might review WP:AGF & other guidelines & essays about interactions between editors.  {Please no need to discuss this third point further. ; - }  Best. — Lentower (talk) 12:52, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Notable award?
There seems to be some misunderstanding about the Courage of Conscience Award from 1995, the Peace Abbey for Klaper. Some back and forth with Bones saying that it is not a notable award and he/she could not find it on the citation given. Then Lentower adds it back in with a better citation, but does not address the nobility of the award. The infobox clearly asks for "Notable Awards" and this Peace Abbey award isn't notable from what I can tell. The organization that awards it is not notable either. It's just a website whose first mention is how they are giving this award to people in places all over the world. I see Mother Teresa, Dalai Lama, Benjamin Spock and others received the award also. But when I look at those notable people's Wikipedia pages, I don't see any mention of the Peace Abbey award, why not? Notable means Notable. I'm going to revert Lentower's edits for the reason that Bones stated. Sgerbic (talk) 19:07, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Why not head the section as merely Award. Those who research this award see that The Courage of Conscience Award is a long-standing award (though sometimes more than one designee was chosen in any calendar year).  Dr. Michael Klaper was given that award, along with a long list of luminaries.

The Peace Abbey's Courage of Conscience Award has been awarded to numerous other highly-regarded honorees and has been mentioned in print several times. One example is of Jim Wallis on page 614 in American Dissidents: An Encyclopedia of Activists, Subversives, and Prisoners of Conscience. Regardless of how one feels about all the others, the mindset of The Peace Abbey may have much to do with how they decided the notability of their recipients, and I think the mention ought to remain in the article. MaynardClark (talk) 22:10, 12 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Maynard how were you able to find that Encyclopedia citation? As I said, this is a non-notable award otherwise it would be mentioned on the other winner's Wikipedia pages. Also the Peace Abbey would have a Wikipedia page and not just a website. Also the info box says "notable awards" not "awards". I SAID that the award has been given to notable people in the past. That wasn't my point, my point is that anyone can make a website and give an award to all the notable people in the world. But it does NOT make the award giver notable. I think you are having trouble with what the word "notable" means. The easiest way to explain that term as far as Wikipedia is concerned is does it have a Wikipedia page? If not, then it probably isn't notable. Sgerbic (talk) 03:07, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Magazine articles are not journal articles
''Klaper M. Happy Holidays? Avoiding disagreements over food. Earthsave Magazine, Vol. 2, No. 1. Winter 1991. no 2.'' is not a journal article, it is a magazine article as correctly stated by it is misleading to include that entry under a heading relating to journal articles. 8&#61;&#61;8 Boneso (talk) 00:28, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Then put it under another section, no need to remove it. Randy Kryn (talk) 01:15, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Klaper has written numerous articles for Earthsave. Do we only list this one or list the lot? His connection with Earthsave is already mentioned.  I will add that he is a contributor to the magazine. 8&#61;&#61;8 Boneso  (talk) 01:25, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Oral?
"Oral sources from relevant eras of Gentle World, including Justice Flowers and Cynthia Pararo" what is this? Oral sources? Sgerbic (talk) 01:25, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I made this note in a draft article, and we are offering the article's author some help, and I have asked the 'oral sources' to document what they have shared with me about the history, how would you suggest that we make this note in the draft...? Then I see that I copied it here, but the point was that Klaper had taken the earlier cookbook, from 1981, and gained credit for his contributions in the 3rd and later editions, then the original authors listed only Gentle World as the author in much later editions. Gentle World became well-known in Los Angeles and Hawaii for their vegan celebrity dinners (I can document that), and Klaper and some of them may have moved together (when Klaper moved to the Los Angeles area). Documenting all that in a SIMPLE way may be nearly impossible.  But I can pull together the pieces that document most if not all of what I am stating.  I can ask the 'oral sources' to provide me more succinct in-print documentation of the pivotal points of the line of reasoning (e.g. Klaper joined WoG in the summer of 1982, etc.). MaynardClark (talk) 02:55, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Someone told you? Is that what you are saying? Wikipedia doesn't work that way. Provide a citation please. Sgerbic (talk) 03:14, 15 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Here's what I have: photographs of the 1981 book - the cover and the first two pages, from the oral sources from Gentle World, who are not Wikipedians but who have explained that Klaper jopined the community in 1982 and contributed to the cookbook and wrote his two books while he was there in Florida with them. They later moved, and he did, also.  They were concerned that the credit for authorship not be given to him exclusively, since he didn't participte in the cookbook until at least 1983 - and they already had published the first edition of the vegan cookbook and the vegan cookbook's predecessor by that time. Getting the documentation in order will take some time, I expect. MaynardClark (talk) 03:37, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Okay I'm not understanding I think. You have the psychical book in your hands right. Then you can cite the book - just use the book template, that's not a problem at all. What I'm not understanding is what you mean by "oral sources from Gentle World" They don't need to be Wikipedians - if it is something that someone is telling you, then you can't cite that. I suppose they could publish this somewhere or Klaper could simply release a YouTube or Podcast interview explaining this and then that could be cited. I think you are trying to explain that Klaper was not the author of this cookbook or at least not the only author? If the cookbook says only Klaper's name on it, then he is the sole author, if it has other people's names on it then cite it that way. I'm sorry I'm just getting confused. Sgerbic (talk) 04:35, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
 * From my experiences with Klaper, I don't think he will get around to making a YouTube video on that topic. But right now, we have an observation of the book itself.  MaynardClark (talk)
 * I'm looking at Amazon - just write it this way - the author of the 1990 cookbook is Gentle World and the Forward was written by Klaper. You don't need to go into the history of their relationship. All that would be relevant on the Gentle World Wikipedia page, but it isn't relevant to Klaper. https://www.amazon.com/Cookbook-People-Who-Love-Animals/dp/0929274180/ref=sr_1_1?hvadid=78134156117283&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvqmt=e&keywords=cookbook+for+people+who+love+animals&qid=1563165442&s=gateway&sr=8-1 This seems much easier, nothing oral at all. Sgerbic (talk) 04:40, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you, although the 1983 edition was a spiral-bound cookbook, for which Michael A. Klaper was listed as the only author. It was republished numerous times, in 1987, 1989, and 1990, with (the corporate) Gentle World Incorporated listed as the sole author. The Cookbook For People Who Love Animals was first published in 1981 by World Of God, who are now GentleWorld.org.  Previously they had released a handmade book called The Cookbook for People Who Really Love Animals around 1979-1980. Klaper did not arrive at Gentle World in Umatilla, Florida, until summer 1982.  After he moved into Gentle World, he authored Vegan Nutrition Pure and Simple (in 1987) and Pregnancy Children and the Vegan Diet (in 1988), based upon e-mails from and physical conversations with Gentle World's Justice Flowers and Cynthia Pararo, who worked on the early and later editions and know Klaper. MaynardClark (talk)
 * You can't use personal emails and what someone told you as a citation. You need something that other people can potentially review. Only use what you can cite in the Wikipedia article. Do not give the history of how Klaper moved here or there and worked with whomever unless you can back that up. Sgerbic (talk) 14:34, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I didn't use it in the article itself (only in this talk page). I agree that the 1990 edition does not cite him as an author, but he was cited as an author in an earlier edition. Do you think that a Gentle World Wikipedia article makes sense?  I do, and Gentle World pioneered in a number of areas around vegan food: cookbooks, celebrity dinners, award dinners for nonprofits, etc. Their direct 'stamp' and 'stamps of influence' are everywhere (for those who can recognize them/it). They are friends with Klaper, of course, and they do have documentation (though not always what Wikipedia allows, such as https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aLU1563vSw&feature=youtu.be). MaynardClark (talk) 18:31, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Gentle World Wikipedia page would have to pass the notability standards, and that isn't as easy as it seems. That might be a better option than mentioning them on Klaper's page. Sgerbic (talk) 01:23, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Good day Here is the Vegetarian Celebrity banquet #2 in LA   Sky 02:34, 17 July 2019 (UTC) SkyPhoenix6 (talk) 19:33, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Appearance on game show Jeopardy

 * YouTube video of Klaper's appearance on the Jeopardy game show. MaynardClark (talk)

Vandalism to remove any critical material
Vegans have repeatedly vandalized this article by deleting reliable references for no valid reason. David Gorski is a reliable source. There is no reason to remove his criticisms of Klaper from the article. The user who removed this content was Skyphoenix6. This user gave no edit summary. According to his/her userpage, they have been a vegan for 44 years. I am not opposed to vegans editing this article but just white washing specific content that is critical is unacceptable and is an obvious POV. I consider these edits vandalism, other drive by accounts have also been trying to remove that material in the past. Please stop. Psychologist Guy (talk) 08:27, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Revisiting Jillette Penn
Currently, the article contains the section:


 * Magician Penn Jillette reported on multiple podcasts that he has lost over 25 pounds on Klaper's water fast diet, Gorski responded that of course he will lose weight on a water-only diet. In Gorski's opinion as a medical doctor himself, "Jillette has fallen "hook, line, and sinker for a whole lot of dietary pseudoscience and promoting it on his show with a credulous interview with someone like Dr. Klaper".[23] Gorski hopes that Jillette will eventually realize "that Dr. Klaper is peddling highly dubious claims (at best). Basically, the product Dr. Klaper is peddling in terms of science is a massive exaggeration based on dubious science, cherry picked cases, and bad evolutionary analogies. Worse, fasts, even when supervised by a physician, are potentially dangerous"

First, it is reliant on an SPS for claims about Jillette, but presumably that could be fixed. If it was, I'm left lost as to why in an article about Michael Klaper we need to raise podcasts just to point out Jillette was wring. Half of this is about Jillette, not Klaper, and what is about Klaper is just a repeat of what is in the previous paragraph. This reads like a coatrack - unitintionally using Klaper to attack Jillette. Is Jillette's comments about Klaper so significant that we need to include them just to knock them down? Or would we be better served by not mentioning the podcasts in the first place. - Bilby (talk) 06:16, 24 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Bilby are we really going back to this again? Sigh - So what is a SPS? I don't know what is the problem with podcasts. Jillette is notable and so him reporting on Klaper is relevant enough to be on Klaper's WP page. It is about weight loss and does not duplicate the other paragraph. Gorski is also relevant and a medical doctor. I just don't see what the big deal is. Sgerbic (talk) 06:27, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
 * An SPS is a self-published source. The issue here is that there is no particular reason that I'm aware of to include Jillette - is his commentary on Kapler particualrly significant? Why give it oxygen only to shoot it down? This isn't about Jillette, this whould be about Klaper. It makes sense to keep it focused on the subject. - Bilby (talk) 06:38, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Are you challenging this? https://respectfulinsolence.com/2018/07/25/penn-jillette-interviews-michael-klaper/ Sgerbic (talk) 16:02, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
 * No. I'm asking why we are using the article on Klaper to criticise Penn Jillette. But if we do ultimately think we should use this article to do so, we will need a better source for "Magician Penn Jillette reported on multiple podcasts that he has lost over 25 pounds on Klaper's water fast diet", which should be easy to find. - Bilby (talk) 21:23, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

Borderline germ theory denailism claim
According to Gorski, Klaper is a borderline germ theory denialist. However, in reading the account by Gorski, the argument seems to be that Klaper, in "How to avoid getting sick", uses a misquote of Pasteur that is also used by germ theory denialists. Using the same incorrect quote should not be enough to regard someone as a germ theory denialist. What Klaper is arguing is that a healthy body reduces the chance of infection - not exactly a controversial view - rather than arguing that germs do not cause disease. Using the headline on its own, without providing the context that this is based on the use of a misquote rather than a view he expressed, can lead readers to assume that Klaper does not belive that germs cause disease - a serious allegation to make against a doctor, especially when based on such flimsy and unexplained reasoning. Accordingly I've removed the claim. - Bilby (talk) 11:58, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Does Gorski say that Klaper is a borderline germ theory denialist? If so then it needs to be left in. Wikipedia editors do not get to do further research into what a quoted source says and determine what that source actually meant and then remove it. Gorski thought enough of what he said to include it in the article he wrote, so it needs to stay as a QUOTE from Gorski. Sgerbic (talk) 15:49, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
 * We don't include every criticism published about someone, especially when coming from self-published sources. If the criticism is unreasonable, it isn't required that we add it. In this case, he's called a borderline germ denialist solely because he included a quote that is sometimes used by germ denialists - this is not a viable criticism to include in a BLP, especially given that in the same article where he uses the quote Klaper writes "The terrible tissue destruction caused by the Staphylococcus and Pneumococcus bacteria, which Pasteur observed and described, is rightly feared by physicians and patients everywhere. We now know that even smaller particles, such as viruses, can be agents of scourges (e.g., smallpox and encephalitis), as well as influenza and the common cold. Pasteur believed that conquering these invading organisms is the key to maintaining health". It certainly isn't as if we don't give Gorski's criticisms enough weight as it stands. - Bilby (talk) 19:56, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Instead of trying to find agreement to add, why not get agreement to remove? Sgerbic (talk) 03:42, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Because this is a BLP. See WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE. - Bilby (talk) 04:06, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

Vegan Summerfest
Michael Klaper has spoken more than twice at the NAVS Vegetarian Summerfest (now Vegan Summerfest), and he has spoken at a number of other well-esteemed summer vegan conferences (Vegans International in San Diego in 1995, World Vegetarian Congress in 1996, and ANHS. That information should be readily discoverable on the Internet OR in journals, many of which have been digitized, OR to some extent in digital versions of Vegetarian Times, if the speakers' lists were published, since Klaper was a featured speaker. MaynardClark (talk) 13:24, 1 October 2020 (UTC)


 * There is a link here for that, I wouldn't object adding it to the article. Psychologist Guy (talk) 19:04, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
 * The issue is how frequently Klaper has spoken at The Veg*an Summerfest as a high-profile featured speaker, not whether one of his years can be documented. MaynardClark (talk) 12:16, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Gorski
Why is the section on Gorski (who is that?) so prominent in the article? MaynardClark (talk) 13:25, 1 October 2020 (UTC)


 * This has been discussed before, its in the archive. David Gorski is a reliable source, he offers a mainstream scientific perspective in relation to medical matters. Klaper has supported some pseudoscientific ideas and the Gorski article criticizes them. Psychologist Guy (talk) 19:02, 1 October 2020 (UTC)