Talk:Michael Mansell

The Lia Pootah
The article makes the Lia Pootah are a "hitherto unknown tribe whose descendants melted into the white community" and not a people of mixed European/Tasmanian heritage. This is not true. I quote from their own homepage, http://www.tasmanianaboriginal.com.au/liapootah/liapootah.htm

"The Lia Pootah Community are descendants of Tasmanian Aboriginal women from a variety of Kinship Groups, mistakenly called tribes, and European men both free, military and convict who arrived at Van Dieman's Land from 1803."

and

"Historians have gone into print claiming Lia Pootah are from “a supposed lost tribe”. Nothing could be further from the truth."

So lets have an end to that nonsense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (search the history tab to find the author and date)


 * i'm not sure what the author of that comment specifically intended, since we don't have a date to go by. In any case, i've restored the reference, with what seems to be the main point that is relevant to Mansell. More details would probably go over to Tasmanian_Aborigines. Boud (talk) 20:40, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Mansell's European Heritage

 * Michael Mansell chooses to identify with only his Tasmanian ancestors, and not his European ones. That is his choice. But the fact remains that he does have European ancestors. Attempts to supress that fact is to edit history and has no place in an encyclopedia. User:Grant Gussie 04:22, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Given Michael Mansell's outspoken opinion on White people and the Oppression of his people the Aboriginals, i think it is notable to mention the Irony that Michael Mansell has blue eyes and very pale skin.... well, at least until a picture is uploaded onto this article. Wiki ian 11:27, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
 * According to Wikipedia's Australian Aborigines Article, Justice Deane of the High Court famously described and defined an Australian Aboriginal person as: "a person of Aboriginal descent, albeit mixed, who identifies himself as such and who is recognised by the Aboriginal community as an Aboriginal". The fact his ancestry is primarily Caucasian might be relevant/encyclopedic, but the way it's pointed out in this article seems like it intends to undermine his claim to be an Aboriginal Activist by 'proving' he's not really Aboriginal, which is both POV, and contrary to the current legal definition of an Aboriginal Australian. Kelly holden (talk) 02:48, 8 August 2010 (UTC)


 * There are two questions:
 * Does a WP:RS consider controversy about Mansell's status as an Indigenous Australian notable? Does the source consider this ironical?
 * Is the claim of irony potentially derogatory or libellous, i.e. does it require very strong sourcing under WP:BLP?
 * For the moment, i don't see any source at all, so i'm removing the WP:WEASEL word, unsourced, contentious sentence "However, ...". i suggest that if someone finds a strong source, then s/he first starts a subsection ==Indigenous status controversy== and if that can be NPOV'ed and BLP-OK'd, then a few words can go to the lead.
 * Boud (talk)


 * some criticism of mansell's claim to aboriginal identity and its consequences, by george weber: https://web.archive.org/web/20130116084907/http://www.andaman.org/BOOK/chapter52/4-Tasmania-survivors/survivors.htm
 * if, as mansell himself said, "there were more phoney than real Aborigines in Tasmania," can we wikipedians really accept mansell's own claim of aboriginal identity? what makes his claim more legitimate than others'?
 * wikipedia's process for deciding what is and isn't a strong source is completely broken for niche issues like this, where there are relatively few participants on either side. i can hardly find anything about mansell that isn't written by mansell himself or simply copy-pasting wikipedia. when even making such a criticism in print is literally illegal in Australia, no reliable source is going to stick their neck out to make the counter-claim.
 * 157.131.95.172 (talk) 07:12, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Libya connection unsourced material, BLP-violating until well-sourced, moved here
Moved from the article:
 * 1) It was revealed that in Libya, Mr Mansell attempted to have his Tasmanian organisation join Muammar al-Gaddafi's Mathaba group, which at the time was a Libyan-funded network of 87 militias and insurgency groups worldwide, including the Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA), which was supplied with arms by Libya (see Provisional IRA arms importation).
 * 2) Despite the recent killing of civilians in Libya and a subsequent NATO intervention Mansell has failed to distance himself from the tyrannical regime.

Reasons for removal of the two sentences:
 * 1) In the Feb-May 2011 context of the 2011 Libyan civil war, being associated with Muammar Gaddafi is widely considered to have a negative connotation. The statement might well be true, but we have no source for it, putting it at the level of rumour rather than encylopedic level knowledge. Please see WP:BLP for details.
 * 2) * The sentence expresses a moral judgment or media relations strategy recommendation that Mansell should attempt to distance himself from his alleged earlier contacts with Gaddafi, and expresses the negative claim that Mansell has not done what the anonymous author recommends. If this were attributed to a source, then it could maybe included if appropriately WP:NPOV'ed and written without weasel words.
 * 3) * "tyrannical regime" is a WP:WEASEL word description of the Muammar Gaddafi government. It happens that the International Criminal Court is expected to issue an arrest warrant against Muammar Gaddafi for crimes against humanity in the next week or so. But see WP:WEASEL for an explanation of why weasel words are not recommended.

i've left the first part of the stuff about the 1987 conference, because even though it's not sourced, it doesn't seem to be derogatory about any specific living persons, so IMHO it seems to be BLP-safe. Boud (talk) 19:58, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

sources for Libya connection
Gaddafi used his World Mathaba Organization to support various revolutionary separatist groups, and Michael Mansell attended a conference related to this in Tripoli.

Hasan di Tiro helped Mathaba and Gaddafi support the Free Papua Movement of Jacob Prai, the Kanak faction in New Caledonia, the South Maluku Separatists, and the Moro National Liberation Front led by Nur Misuari in the Philippines.

Republic of South Maluku Revolutionary Front for an Independent East Timor Papua conflict Free Papua Movement Moro insurgency in the Philippines Kanak and Socialist National Liberation Front

Sources for Mansell's trip to Libya can be found here.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1300&dat=19870422&id=kbNRAAAAIBAJ&sjid=_5IDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5915,391755

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/messagestick/stories/s1104740.htm

http://overland.org.au/2013/10/michael-mansell-australian-of-the-year/

http://www.examiner.com.au/story/470288/gaddafi-loses-touch-with-people-mansell/

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/muammar-gaddafi-was-a-tyrant-and-comic-figure-but-few-were-laughing/story-e6frg6so-1226173440867

http://www.independentaustralia.net/australia/australia-display/understanding-indigenous-sovereignty,3946

http://books.google.com/books?id=a9ppOE30u8EC&pg=PA111#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=AY-gZEaijmsC&pg=PA249#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,964515,00.html

More information on Mathaba can be found here.

http://books.google.com/books?id=i4h0AAAAMAAJ&q=Hassan+di+Tiro+himself+makes+the+crucial+decisions,+and+runs+a+personal+network+of+contacts+with+the+liberation+movement+leaders+Libya+supports,+among+them+Jacob+Prai+of+the+OPM+(Free+Papua+Movement)+of+West+Papua+and+Yann+Ce-+tene&dq=Hassan+di+Tiro+himself+makes+the+crucial+decisions,+and+runs+a+personal+network+of+contacts+with+the+liberation+movement+leaders+Libya+supports,+among+them+Jacob+Prai+of+the+OPM+(Free+Papua+Movement)+of+West+Papua+and+Yann+Ce-+tene&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eUUKUvjwA8HCywH26IG4Dg&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA

http://books.google.com/books?id=i4h0AAAAMAAJ&q=COLONEL+GADDAFI'S+shadowy+international+revolutionary+organisation+Mathaba,+established+in+the+Libyan+capital+of+Tripoli+and+dispensing+funds+to+liberation+movements+around+the+world,+is+run+by+a+most+unlikely+radical.+Tunku+Mohammed+Hassan+di+Tiro,+a+Sumatran+prince,+fervent+Muslim+and+bitter+opponent+of+Indonesia,+is+the+chairman+of+Mathaba's+political+committee&dq=COLONEL+GADDAFI'S+shadowy+international+revolutionary+organisation+Mathaba,+established+in+the+Libyan+capital+of+Tripoli+and+dispensing+funds+to+liberation+movements+around+the+world,+is+run+by+a+most+unlikely+radical.+Tunku+Mohammed+Hassan+di+Tiro,+a+Sumatran+prince,+fervent+Muslim+and+bitter+opponent+of+Indonesia,+is+the+chairman+of+Mathaba's+political+committee&hl=en&sa=X&ei=BVQhU4y3K-PD0QG0g4GwDg&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA

Page 18

"COLONEL GADDAFI'S shadowy international revolutionary organisation Mathaba, established in the Libyan capital of Tripoli and dispensing funds to liberation movements around the world, is run by a most unlikely radical. Tunku Mohammed Hassan di Tiro, a Sumatran prince, fervent Muslim and bitter opponent of Indonesia, is the chairman of Mathaba's political committee.... Hassan di Tiro himself makes the crucial decisions, and runs a personal network of contacts with the liberation movement leaders Libya supports, among them Jacob Prai of the OPM (Free Papua Movement) of West Papua and Yann Ce- tene Uregei of New Caledonia's Kanak radical faction,"

http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,964515,00.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=aDgnAQAAIAAJ&q=In+the+past+year+Gaddafi's+agents+have+offered+arms+and+cash+to+rebels+in+Papua+New+Guinea,+encouraged+an+aboriginal+separatist+movement+in+Australia,+shipped+weapons+to+dissidents+in+New+Caledonia+and+tried+to+open+an+office+in+the&dq=In+the+past+year+Gaddafi's+agents+have+offered+arms+and+cash+to+rebels+in+Papua+New+Guinea,+encouraged+an+aboriginal+separatist+movement+in+Australia,+shipped+weapons+to+dissidents+in+New+Caledonia+and+tried+to+open+an+office+in+the&hl=en&sa=X&ei=okUKUvzFJsSEyAGW2YCQDA&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA

Page 120

"In the past year Gaddafi's agents have offered arms and cash to rebels in Papua New Guinea, encouraged an aboriginal separatist movement in Australia, shipped weapons to dissidents in New Caledonia and tried to open an office in the"

http://books.google.com/books?id=ArvtbBOPwGIC&pg=PT177&dq=mathaba+libya&hl=en&sa=X&ei=swcNU6CtMK_JsQTug4CwCA&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=mathaba%20libya&f=false

Rajmaan (talk) 18:04, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

External links modified (January 2018)
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Mansell's european ancestors
Presumably he has some. Does anyone have a source on them? --Eldomtom2 (talk) 23:31, 8 April 2021 (UTC)